Which is Better? [Archive]

Bass Ackward

06-29-2005, 05:35 AM

I'm considering getting another .44 mag carbine; I'm looking at the Winchester Legacy and the Rossi Puma. Fit, finish, function, and accuracy, how do they compare?

You .... don't .... need .... another rifle.

Everything you buy has to be gone over and there still will be quirks. Think of all the time required to fit up slugs and work up loads. Maybe new molds. Then you have to keep the ammo straight so you don't get it mixed up with your other 44 ammo. And in the end, you will still grab the wrong box!

Both of those models shoot outta one hole. And they balance and handle just so so. It's a personalized choice made from an .... experience. That's a lever. And besides, when you look down the sights, you can't see fit and finish anyway. A lever is a tool just like a knife. A truck or saddle gun. It doubles as a boat oar if and when you need it to. Or a tent stake. How you buy a lever is to take a friend with you and have him blind fold you. Then hand you a rifle, one at a time, without telling you what you have until you say this is the one. That's the experience.

See what I mean. You just .... don't .... need the agrivation of another gun. Especially a lever.

You can thank me later. :grin:

Scrounger

06-29-2005, 03:50 PM

You .... don't .... need .... another rifle.

That is true. There is at least a half dozen right now on AuctionArms and at least a dozen more that will be there eventually. I do appreciate people here talking me out of buying a Marlin .45 Colt or a .454 Casull; I do have so much .44 Mag stuff that it would be senseless to change calibers, and with a .444, I certainly don't need a Casull or .480 Ruger. But my .44 Marlin is a Microgroove, and has a lot of rounds through it. I need to start thinking "replacement". I haven't owned a Winchester lever in over 40 years, and with Beagle singing the praises of the Legacy, that looks like as good a direction to go in as any. Naturally, as soon as the new gun is trained, the Marlin would be looking for a new home. It is a cruel world.

Bass Ackward

06-29-2005, 07:23 PM

But my .44 Marlin is a Microgroove, and has a lot of rounds through it. I need to start thinking "replacement".

Have you ever thought of taking a step up and re-barreling. Nice tight chamber and a good throat that could use most any factory mold. No special sizing. Then you could have something more than what can be purchased.

If you don't find this practical, then Marlin might re-barrel it for you with a cut rifled barrel. The down side is you get there famous throat. Then you get to keep the memories from that piece.

Scrounger

06-29-2005, 07:42 PM

Have you ever thought of taking a step up and re-barreling. Nice tight chamber and a good throat that could use most any factory mold. No special sizing. Then you could have something more than what can be purchased.

If you don't find this practical, then Marlin might re-barrel it for you with a cut rifled barrel. The down side is you get there famous throat. Then you get to keep the memories from that piece.

I have thought about that, but I don't know of any gunsmiths that don't charge a month's wages for the job. For what they want, I could buy a new rifle and still have this one to keep or sell. And Marlin, while more reasonable than a gunsmith, is still about three quarters of the way to a new one, AND it would still have that 38 inch twist. And I ain't real big on memories anyway.

drinks

06-29-2005, 08:10 PM

I just got a new barrel for my handirifle, .44mag. bore at factory spec, .431, but the twist is 1/16", but it is the dreaded microgroove, 12 lands and grooves, oh well, gain some , lose some!

Willbird

06-30-2005, 04:46 AM

I must say Scrounger that most gunsmiths earn their pay......with the level of care and skill good work requires they would make 2-3 times more money as tool and diemakers.

Nice work is worth the price...I know guys that can buy 2-3 Salvage/Slimmins combo's for what I have in one trued 1/4 moa 700 remington machine with a nice gold ring scope on it. They are happy....but so am I. And I am gifted to be able to fit and chamber my own bbls, and true my own actions......all I have in them is the price of the blanks and a reamer plus a check to MCMillon for a stock.

Levers are less nuts and bolts than a bolt action gun I would think more artiste work required.

I'd re-barrel it, send it off with the $$ and go to work on other projects til it comes back, you will be happy in the end.

Bill

StarMetal

06-30-2005, 09:00 AM

Bass Ackward

06-30-2005, 09:52 AM

That's a bunch of bullshit Willbird and you know it. Same deal as taking your car to the dealership and they work on it for $60 an hour or highter. You're just symphatetic to gunsmiths because you love guns. I learned how to do all that stuff to guns also because I'm not paying ridiculously high prices like Scrounger said. Scrounger...you're right!!!!!! Save your money pardner..you're retired..up there in age..etc...don't spend your money foolishly when you need it the most now.

Joe

Joe,

Wow. A little bound up today are we? Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

Getting something made to meet a specific standard that isn't manufactured commercially is not the same as taking you car in for maintenance for $60 an hour. In fact I would say that for the express purpose of shooting cast bullets in a lever rifle, there is or would be no bigger improvement than a custom chamber / barrel would provide.

You need to realize that quality workmanship does not lend itself to barrels or work for levers. Not like bolt rifles have received. Reamers used are maximum specs that they want to cut 50,000 chambers or so.

Plus, I am sure Scrounger is not so far gone that he can't decide if he wants to eat or not. :grin:

As another option that does't involve $60 an hour gunsmiths. Call one of the gunsmithing schools and volunteer your gun for a student project. Cost usually is only for the material and renting a reamer maybe. Work of that nature would be supervised because of the seriousness involved.

A 44 Mag chamber cut with a reamer made to SAAMI standards with a power drill and the barrel held in a vise would, for cast bullet purposes, exceed the finest factory produced lever chamber / throat that he mentioned. Marry that up to a quality barrel of the correct twist and you have something you can't buy unless you get it used from one of those mechanics at the dealership. :grin:

StarMetal

06-30-2005, 10:04 AM

Bass..BULLSHIT...hahahahaha hey before you get your bloomers in an uproar I'm just kidding, to make you have another good laugh, you know. Well I kinda disagree about the car/gunsmith comparison. For example, changing oil isn't that hard or concidered "custom work", but yet, they charge an arm and a leg for it at the dealership. Now sending you're car out to Pat Boydington in Kalifornia for a big make over...now that's custom and costs alot.

Sundog,

Before you get your bloomers in an uproar also, I'm yanking your chain some, but in all honesty, we need to voice our opinions, not be a silent majority. The government surely isn't going to do anything, like at the present on the Cold War certificate, if we're silent, but never know, might in the future if we're heard. We can't change our government by being quiet and not doing anything.

Joe

Willbird

06-30-2005, 10:45 AM

I dunno about 60.00 an hour, If I could make that screwing bbls onto lever guns til the cas craze dies AGAIN I better get on it hehe. Heck I could work a 10 hour day on monday, take the rest of the week off, and still make good money :-)

I talked some on another list with a guy that chambers his barrels for a BR rifle by hand....literally. he gets an aquaintence to turn and thread the bbl for a Stolle action, and I presume crown the muzzle too, then he puts the bbl in some rig he has out in the woodshed with the breech at a nice place to turn a tap handle. He then run the reamer in there totally by hand, he says it takes about 3 hours. He had Dan Green do his reamers and they got the sizes worked out to compensate for his method.

Most decent machinests could show many gunsmiths a thing or two about setup and machining.........but the artistry is where they earn their bucks IMHO.

Bill

Bass Ackward

06-30-2005, 10:57 AM

Well I kinda disagree about the car/gunsmith comparison. For example, changing oil isn't that hard or concidered "custom work", but yet, they charge an arm and a leg for it at the dealership.
Joe

Joe,

You miss or avoid the point. If the oil change it the same, then you are correct. But a guy that made my point better than me was a guy named Starmetal.

This guy Starmetal once told me he hated older Ruger rifles that had throats cut with these same max style reamers. He seemed to feel a good chamber throat relationship had something to do with accuracy. So he advocated brands of rifles that were chambered better. So what's the diff?

But if cost is the only obstacle, I would contact a school. Because now that I think about it, a young guy that I have been teaching to cast, attended the school in Pittsburgh last summer. They are required to complete a project to gradualte. He had no idea or cash. So I had him build a 35 Whelen AI on old 98 I had laying around for me and then I gave it to him. So I am sure there are others out there that need something to do and don't have the cash for their own projects. If you are willing to risk the gun.

Nothing ventured .... :grin:

7br

06-30-2005, 11:41 AM

That's a bunch of bullshit Willbird and you know it. Same deal as taking your car to the dealership and they work on it for $60 an hour or highter. You're just symphatetic to gunsmiths because you love guns. I learned how to do all that stuff to guns also because I'm not paying ridiculously high prices like Scrounger said. Scrounger...you're right!!!!!! Save your money pardner..you're retired..up there in age..etc...don't spend your money foolishly when you need it the most now.

Joe

I am willing to pay the $60 for a couple of reasons.
1. I have to help pay for the shop's overhead. My gunsmith is a one man operation. He has to pay rent, taxes, insurance, etc on his own. His one hour of gunsmithing has to support all of the above.
2. I have had a couple of guns screwed up by incompetent smiths. Took a youth rifle in to get the trigger lightened up. Kinda hard for an 8 year old to pull a 14lb trigger. It came back and the sear will disengage when the safety is between safe and fire, but the firing pin won't drop. Guess what happens when you then push the safety fully forward... There are two guys I will trust with my target guns. $60 is cheap piece of mind for an old favorite.

Heck, if I am willing to drive 2 1/2 hours to drop the stuff off to a smith, I shouldn't gritch too much about his hourly rate.

Scrounger

06-30-2005, 11:43 AM

That's a bunch of bullshit Willbird and you know it. Same deal as taking your car to the dealership and they work on it for $60 an hour or highter. You're just symphatetic to gunsmiths because you love guns. I learned how to do all that stuff to guns also because I'm not paying ridiculously high prices like Scrounger said. Scrounger...you're right!!!!!! Save your money pardner..you're retired..up there in age..etc...don't spend your money foolishly when you need it the most now.

Joe

The thing I've noticed about most gunsmiths is that they seem to want to work only 2 or 3 days a week, and go shooting the rest of the time. Can't argue with that philosophy but the problem is they want to make $500 a day when they work. Most of us have to put in a good 40 hour week, or more, in order to make enough to get by. Forty hours at $25 an hour is a thousand a week or 50 grand a year. For a mechanic or clerk or deliveryman or gunsmith, that would seem an adequate pay. I would think $100 for installing a barrel should be enough. I've seen guys do it in an hour. I think there is another factor, and I'll give them credit for it, is that there probably isn't enough work to keep them busy 4o hours every week. So he only gets 10 hours work coming in, doesn't mean he should charge 4 times as much for it. That will cause the work to dry up even more. I think if a man charges fair and reasonable rates, he will generate more jobs, not less.

StarMetal

06-30-2005, 11:54 AM

Art...it's always been my philosity to sell more product or services at a lower price then to sell a few at a high price. Could never understand how retail buisiness figures.

Joe

Scrounger

06-30-2005, 12:15 PM

Art...it's always been my philosity to sell more product or services at a lower price then to sell a few at a high price. Could never understand how retail buisiness figures.

Joe

This is not challenging your statement, just explaining their philosophy. I worked part time for a while in a gunshop. The owner was a friend at that time but he worked his way out of that status. He explained his theory on the practice you pose above: He said: Here's this gun I can buy for $300. If I buy 2 of them I will have $600 tied up. If I sell them for $500 each, I make $400 profit. If I choose to sell them for $400 each, I only make $200 profit. In order to make that same $400 profit, I must buy 4 of them and tie up $1200 in inventory and do twice as much handling and paperwork. I see his point but you really have to balance the two ways and end up somewhere in between. I can tell you this: What I have learned from a lot of action on EBAY, AuctionArms, and GunBroker, there's a lot of people out there that have more dollars than they have sense! They will usually jump right to "Buy It Now" instead of bidding and waiting.

StarMetal

06-30-2005, 12:41 PM

Well see what pissed off the big dealers every little Tom and Joe got their FFL licenses and it got so competitive to sell something that those little dealers were actually selling stuff for just over cost. Now I can't blame them there and when I had my license I would not sell it that cheap just to make the sell. It wasn't as high as the big boys, but it wasn't just over costs. When someone complained I said "Hey, go buy your own license". Another thing wrong with the gun business is everyone in the whole country know what prices are through various means and one is Shotgun News. You fellows tell me how many magazines are out there that tell you the wholesales prices of TV's, Computers, Refrigerators, Cars, Trucks, Motorcycles, etc. Not many. So why is it there is for guns and related equipment?

Art if it wasn't for a dang FFL being required I'm sure you could mail your rifle and new barrel that you purchase separately to more then one person on this forum that would put it together for you cheaper then a bona fide gunsmith. It's not rocket science. Buckshot to name one could probably do it. He did himself a Marlin.

Joe

grumble

06-30-2005, 01:04 PM

Jumptrap

06-30-2005, 01:51 PM

"...if it wasn't for a dang FFL being required I'm sure you could mail your rifle and new barrel that you purchase separately to more then one person on this forum that would put it together for you cheaper then a bona fide gunsmith..."

You can mail a long gun to anyone in your state without an FFL. Only out of state transfers require a receiving FFL.

I get so damned sick of these pissing contests and it seems Joe is in the middle of every one of them!

I have my FFL. Now take this one to the bank; you can mail your gun to any gunsmith in the United States for repair/modification, etc. and he can mail it back to you. All he does is enter it in his books as received and then shows it disposed of to the owner when he ships it. You don't need an FFL to send it or receive it. This is FACT, not bullshit and it applies to all 50 states, UNLESS there is some latent state law preventing such and I am not aware of them. Of course, nothing in the United States applies to the D of C!

grumble

06-30-2005, 02:01 PM

I think you misunderstood the conversation, Jump. Joe was talking about sending the gun to a member of this forum, and thinking that whoever received the gun would require the FFL. My post was just saying that the gun could be sent in-state to anyone -- and there are several members of this rag-tag outfit in Nevada. Only out-of-state shipments require a receiving FFL, not a sending FFL.

No pissing contest. And you can take that to the bank, too! <GGG>

StarMetal

06-30-2005, 02:14 PM

Grumble read me right. I guess I should have been more clear. I mentioned Buckshot for example..but he doesn't have an FFL so can't send it to him. Sorry for the confusion. Shucks we're just having a spirited conversation...no pissing.

Joe

Bass Ackward

06-30-2005, 02:32 PM

So he only gets 10 hours work coming in, doesn't mean he should charge 4 times as much for it. That will cause the work to dry up even more. I think if a man charges fair and reasonable rates, he will generate more jobs, not less.

Scrounger,

You .... might .... think so, but are you realistic? And that is why gunsmithing is a tough business. People don't understand what is involved.

Do you want your barrel indicated up on the lathe or is a pipe threader and a drill press OK? Did you want your barrel crowned after it was chambered? How about extractor slots, need them? Is the barrel to be polished? Blued? The gun reassembled or just sent back in parts? (Can you believe the audacity of some customers? They actually want their guns back finished and reassembled.) Hell, it costs $75 just to have a gun cleaned today where all that is needed is some chamicals and some patches. You need 6 figures to set up a working shop. I hope you didn't break a reamer. Or strip the head off a screw because some idiot used locktite or let it rust in place. Do you carry the screw in inventory or will the customer understand the delay? What if you found a really worn part. Do you just reassemble it and say Scrounger will understand if it breaks 90 days later? Think he will believe that that worn out part came out of HIS gun that was working fine for 70 years? Going to call him to get him to pony up and listen to him complain for an hour or just replace it? God forbid, what if the barrel wasn't stress relieved and walked on you. It's ruined. Are you going to eat that or will Scrounger be a good guy and understand that it wasn't my fault? It all takes time and it all costs.

So let's see, everything went perfect because it was Scroungers gun. Out of $100 that means the wages for that job would be about $10.00 per hour unless you multi-tasked. But I am sure Scrounger wants me to do a good job and concentrate on it as I go for his $100. Oh, I forgot, you have to pay your taxes out of that. That just cut you down to $5.00 per hour because you are self employed. Forget your over head.

$50,000 income a year won't cover your consumables and expenses if you are working every day of the week. 90% of smiths don't make that and work part time someplace else. The money is made on refinish work and fancy wood. So you just went out of bussiness because all you did all day was lose money. Now the bank wants their investment back. But all those guys that you gave a good deal to re-barreling are going to send you a few bucks to tide you over until you can get on at Wal Mart huh?

Scrounger

06-30-2005, 02:35 PM

I know what you mean anyway, Joe. I thought about having my friend Rayo (in SoCal) do it. He has rebarrelled rifles for me before. But he likes Mausers. He will do a Remington, Winchester, or Ruger, but he's a little reluctant to get into lever guns for some reason, and I ain't pushing. Bottom line: If I could get a barrel for $125, rent a reamer ($35??), forget shipping (illegal) or driving it down and back (also illegal under California law) and rebluing, I'm still more than halfway into a new Marlin or Winchester. The smart play is, and always will be, sell the old one, buy a new one. Rebarrelling ONLY makes sense if you're going to some caliber or configureation that is not available already. Buy a new Winchester ($400), sell the old Marlin ($275); total cost for new barrel/gun: $125. Not possible to rebarrel anywhere near that neighborhood.

Scrounger

06-30-2005, 02:47 PM

Scrounger,

You .... might .... think so, but are you realistic? And that is why gunsmithing is a tough business. People don't understand what is involved.

Do you want your barrel indicated up on the lathe or is a pipe threader and a drill press OK? Did you want your barrel crowned after it was chambered? How about extractor slots, need them? Is the barrel to be polished? Blued? The gun reassembled or just sent back in parts? (Can you believe the audacity of some customers? They actually want their guns back finished and reassembled.) Hell, it costs $75 just to have a gun cleaned today where all that is needed is some chamicals and some patches. You need 6 figures to set up a working shop. I hope you didn't break a reamer. Or strip the head off a screw because some idiot used locktite or let it rust in place. Do you carry the screw in inventory or will the customer understand the delay? What if you found a really worn part. Do you just reassemble it and say Scrounger will understand if it breaks 90 days later? Think he will believe that that worn out part came out of HIS gun that was working fine for 70 years? Going to call him to get him to pony up and listen to him complain for an hour or just replace it? God forbid, what if the barrel wasn't stress relieved and walked on you. It's ruined. Are you going to eat that or will Scrounger be a good guy and understand that it wasn't my fault? It all takes time and it all costs.

So let's see, everything went perfect because it was Scroungers gun. Out of $100 that means the wages for that job would be about $10.00 per hour unless you multi-tasked. But I am sure Scrounger wants me to do a good job and concentrate on it as I go for his $100. Oh, I forgot, you have to pay your taxes out of that. That just cut you down to $5.00 per hour because you are self employed. Forget your over head.

$50,000 income a year won't cover your consumables and expenses if you are working every day of the week. 90% of smiths don't make that and work part time someplace else. The money is made on refinish work and fancy wood. So you just went out of bussiness because all you did all day was lose money. Now the bank wants their investment back. But all those guys that you gave a good deal to re-barreling are going to send you a few bucks to tide you over until you can get on at Wal Mart huh?

I was just thinking of it in terms of labor. You are right about the overhead and other expenses. I guess what I was trying to say is that most of us cannot afford the cost of a gunsmith. Note that there aren't too many of them around; Their pricing may be worthy and necessary, but it unfortunately has put them out of the reach of most gun owners. We lose, they lose. When it's worn out or broken, throw it away and buy a new one; you cannot afford to pay such high prices to repair one.

grumble

06-30-2005, 02:50 PM

Good points, Bass. Taking anything to a pro means that you're paying for the shop, feeding the guy's family, and his taxes. Makes a darn good case for why most of us should learn to do as much of that kind of work for ourselves as possible. Only things that require equipment or expertise beyond our abilities should go to a shop. And even then, only the parts of the job we can't do ourselves should be jobbed out. And we'll all be better shooters and gunowners because of it.

Scrounger's financial analysis is right on. Cheaper to just trade in the gun on what he wants.

Magnum Mike

06-30-2005, 03:14 PM

You can mail a long gun to anyone in your state without an FFL. Only out of state transfers require a receiving FFL.Not true. You can mail your guns to YOURSELF in any state, no FFL required on either end. You can mail your gun to an FFL dealer in or outta state BUT you cannot mail your gun to someone else legally without an FFL involved. Dont believe me, check the ATF's FAQ's, its in there....

grumble

06-30-2005, 03:27 PM

That's exactly where I got the info, Mike.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b9

[quote]

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service? [Back]

A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier? [Back]

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be
used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract
carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]
[unquote]

grumble

06-30-2005, 03:49 PM

To make it more clear:

Anybody can use the USPS to mail a longgun to anyone else in his own state. (assuming that neither is forbidden to own guns, of course). No FFL required by either party.

Anyone can use UPS (FedEx, Airborne, etc) to ship either a longgun OR a handgun to another person in his own state. No FFL required.

To ship out of state, they must be sent to an FFL, unless being shipped to oneself in another state.

Magnum Mike

06-30-2005, 04:13 PM

I stand corrected. Honestly, i believe that law has changed recently but, once again, i could be wrong.

I know that certain states will not allow such transactions. PA, as an example, will NOT allow handguns to be transfered in this manner as PA requires a "transfer" of all handguns through an FFL.

Stupid flippin' laws....

Scrounger

06-30-2005, 04:17 PM

Those are ATF rules, Grumble. But two problems: UPS and FedX have their own rules to factor in, and the various states may also get involved. California, for instance: You could not walk next door and hand over a firearm to your neighbor, much less mail it. ALL, repeat, ALL, gun transactions must go through an FFL and Cal DOJ approved dealer, with requisite fees, paper work, and waiting period, not to mention gun lock. Enjoy.

grumble

06-30-2005, 04:33 PM

Yeah, when it comes to state laws, y'all are on your own.

The problem with individual carrier rules isn't so much their rules as it is the dingbats that answer the phone or stand behind the counter. FedEx is particularly bad about idiots that can't understand their own company's rules. You can go to their websites and read up on what they require and try to convince the moron you're talking to about it, but as often as not, they'll just stiffen up and refuse your shipment rather than learn how to do it properly. The Fed Law just says that the carrier has to be informed, not WHO in the company needs to know. So, when I ship, I call after the package is in their system and tell whoever answers the phone that a firearm is involved. I really don't care a whole lot about breaking a company's rules, especially when they don't understand them themselves. They won't send me to jail, but breaking the LAW can have some serious consequences.

StarMetal

06-30-2005, 05:28 PM

Bass...do we get a senior discount??? Once when I was a young man, a career couselor suggested going to a type of work I wanted to pursue and question the person or people that worked there. The job in question was being a gunsmith. So I questioned the local gunsmith where I was living at that time, who was kind of an informal friend also, and he said if you're going to do it for a living FORGET IT. If you're going to do it as a side hobby, then ok. I'll bet alot of the gunsmiths we all speak about here on the forum don't use gunsmithing as their only income.

Joe

Willbird

06-30-2005, 05:47 PM

Scrounger

06-30-2005, 06:13 PM

Honestly factory bbls are only good to sell to suckers hehe,Suckers will pay what a shilen contoured blank costs for a junk factory tube on EGay.

Re-barreling makes perfect sense if you intend to keep the rifle.

Bill

In all honesty, the factory barrels on EBAY go for perhaps a quarter of what a contured Shilen blank sells for. And it is only a blank; it requires about $300 to your friendly gunsmith to actually make it part of a rifle. Factory barrel or custom, the decision usually reflects the economic status of the buyer, nothing else. I'm sure all of us would like Kreiger or Schneider barrels on our toys, but for most of us, we have more pressing needs for the money. If you are one of the more fortunate, I hope you appreciate it.

Pilgrim

07-07-2005, 10:44 AM

There is another way to get a new barrel for you old action. Contact gunsmiths that chamber lots of barrels. They don't have to be in your home town either. The Rifleman in Montana for example, or Sisk, or Shilen, or Shaw, or.... Those guys wind up with takeoff barrels that they neither want nor need. When the barrel you want shows up, you get it at a decent price. Odds are it will fit up with no rechambering required. If it needs some fit up work, it usually involves removing or adding less than one thread to the barrel shank and that isn't expensive. Anybody with a barrel vice can put the barrel on or off, no big deal. A second way is to continue to check with the gun parts dealers, or ebay. They often wind up with barrels you may want at a decent price. Same comments as above. What you won't get is a barrel with zero headspace, or minimum chamber, or a throat cut for cast bullets, or etc. . If you want a custom chamber and fit up, or a match grade barrel it costs. If not, then it can be done fairly reasonably by searching around for takeoff barrels, or "surplus" barrels. FWIW Pilgrim