45/70 crimp question...

[sharpshooter81]

Got my new Lee mold a few days ago.....459-405gr-HB....I have cast a few hundred rounds with it and only had a dozen or so rejects,...mold seems to work perfect!....Question is....the cast boolit has no crimp cannelure....I do however have a Lee Factory Crimp Die for the 45/70...the instructions say that no crimp cannelure is necessary because the LFCD cuts its own cannelure....Can this crimp be used on this boolit and be trusted? ....ALSO....I havent loaded any 45/70 rounds yet I do not know what powder or load I am going to use (just so you know).

:CastBoolitsisbest:

[williamwaco]

I have NO experience with the .45-70.

I have used the Lee Factory Crimp die with the .38-55 and the .30-30 and have not had good results with it.

It WILL press the mouth of the case into the body of the bullet making a "crimp ring".

If you are loading for a rifle with a tubular magazine, I expect you will need a pretty solid crimp.

If you are loading for a single shot, I would apply a light crimp with the seating die.

The .38-55 is virtually identical to the .45-70. Just smaller. I have used the seating die, the LFC die and the resizing die to crimp.

Accuracy results from worst to best are:

No crimp.
Lee Factory Crimp
RCBS Cowboy seating die.
RCBS Cowboy resizing die.

My current best accuracy load is crimped by running the loaded, uncrimped, cartridge back into the resizing die just far enough for the mouth of the case to be tapered into the body of the bullet to about one half the thickness of the case mouth. You can still hang your fingernail on the mouth of the case but it is indented into the body of the bullet.

[stubshaft]

The Lee FCD will resize your boolit in the case. You can apply a slight roll crimp ahead of the front ring on the boolit.

[Rico1950]

"The Lee FCD will resize your boolit in the case. You can apply a slight roll crimp ahead of the front ring on the boolit".


No true, unless you screw the die too far into the press. Are you thinking of the Lee pistol FCD? Whole nother animal.
The Lee FCD for rifle cartridges is adjustable for crimp depending how far you screw it into your press.

[StrawHat]

Got my new Lee mold a few days ago.....459-405gr-HB....I have cast a few hundred rounds with it and only had a dozen or so rejects,...mold seems to work perfect!....Question is....the cast boolit has no crimp cannelure....I do however have a Lee Factory Crimp Die for the 45/70...the instructions say that no crimp cannelure is necessary because the LFCD cuts its own cannelure....Can this crimp be used on this boolit and be trusted? ....ALSO....I havent loaded any 45/70 rounds yet I do not know what powder or load I am going to use (just so you know).

:CastBoolitsisbest:

We need a bit more info from you. In what rifle do you plan on using this boolit? It makes a difference, I don't crimp cartridges I use in single shots. The HB boolit was designed for the 45-70 with blackpowder loads so a crimp was not necessary to keep the bullet from being pushed into the case. What powder do you anticipate using? And how do you plan on using the boolit, hunting or target work and at what distance? These answers will help us get you shooting.

[sharpshooter81]

I just bought a Marlin 1895 (built in 1999)...22" barrel....I am thinking I will be using H335 or IMR3031 because thats all I have :D....plan on doing mostly target work, but will also use it later in the fall for black bear and whitetail deer....I already used my 30-30 FCD on some jac#^&^@ boolits and it seemed to work good :)

[btroj]

You don't need a huge amount of crimp if you have good neck tension. Next tension is far better t keeping the bullet where it belongs than a crimp is.

I haven't ever shot the Lee hollow base bullet but wonder how well it does at higher pressures and velocities. I would wonder if the base gets a bit flared out when the pressures go up. That bullet really is designed for BP type pressure.

[largom]

If you flare the case mouth and have good neck tension then use the FCD to just remove the flare. For hunting just carry one in the chamber and one in the magazine. I have never needed more than one shot with my 45-70's.

Larry

[sharpshooter81]

The base is designed to expand to better seal the bore....which is a good thing in rifles like Marlins that like fat boolits (.459 and bigger)....there are lots of reviews of the hollow base, most people having great success with it.....this mold can also have the base pin filed off to create a slightly heavier plain base boolit (about 415 grns)...Im going to try shooting the hollow base boolit first, and if I dont like it, I'm going to file mine too!!

[btroj]

The base expansion can also,be over done. Too much pressure and the skirt flares after it leaves the muzzle and you get a bit of a bell shape.
Just posing a question. I am sure someone here has shot that bullet at healthy velocities and can say now it did.
I personally like my 460420 group buy mould. Shot over 24 gr of 2400 it shoots great. Same bullet with 46 gr of H322 killed 2 black bears for me. Love my Marlin.

[DLCTEX]

I use the Lee 459-340 plain base and Ranch Dogs 460-340 and 460-420 GCs so there is a groove provided. I prefer shooting the 340 weight boolits, they're more fun in a Guide Gun.

[Larry Gibson]

sharpshooter

The base is designed to expand to better seal the bore....

That is the case with HB'd bullets designed to do that. However, the Lee 405HB is a replica of the M1873 45-70 Government bullet. The HB was not designed as a mine' type to expand into the rifling. The HB was there to maintain a given weight within the parmeters of a fixed external dimension. This is documented in the platte drawings of the bullets in the manuals for the Springfield Trapdoor rifles. Obturation into the grooves was expected to be from inertia. This did not really happen well and was one of the reasons the heavier M1881/'82 500 gr bullets was adopted over the same 70 gr BP charge. Note the very thick skirt and actually small cavity. It will take a very high psi with a pretty soft alloy to really effectively cause any obturation. That psi will be more and the velocity will be more than the soft alloy can take and still shoot accurately.

Yes the 405 HB bullet is a very good one. The accuracy of this HB bullet with the weight up front contradicts the dictum that HP'd bullets are more accurate because the weight is to the rear of those bullets. I've been shooting the 405 HB for many years in my TDs, my Siamese Mauser and a couple Marlins. As mentioned if youve good neck tension with a hard alloy (softer alloys will get sized by the neck tension and then you won't have neck tension anymore) then a milt crimp is all that's needed and it can be on a driving band.

The last Marlin I used this bullet in had a mild crimp of the case mouth on the front driving band made with the LFCD however the loads were fairly mild as they were TD level loads in the 1300 fps range. Heavier recoiling loads will require a heavier crimp. You might see if the OAl of a cartridge with the crimp just under the front driving band in the 1st lube groove will feed through your Marlin. That would be the best place for a heavier crimp.

Larry Gibson