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versifier
03-23-2007, 11:56 AM
I have been driving myself to distraction trying to round up cases for the 6.5x53 Mannlicher-Schoenaur. One of our members generously sent me a few that he had kicking around, and I have been able to shoot it enough to realize that the rifle is a tack driver. Though from the outside, it looks to have been on the losing end of more than one war, I think it will make a nice deer rifle and really want to scrounge up more brass for it. All supplies appear to have dried up completely, at least I have been unable to come up with any in a year of searching, except for collectors samples for $3+ per round.
Sooooo, I guess it's time to do it the hard way. I have ordered the Manual of Cartridge Conversions, but wanted some feedback in the mean time. I think I can make them from 220Swift cases by turning down the rim, fl sizing, trimming, and fireforming. Does this seem like a workable solution, or is there a fly in the ointment I'm not seeing?

Dye
03-23-2007, 01:06 PM
versifier
I just look it up, Do you have a 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenaur. If you do you are rght on except need to cut a extracture grove.
Becarefull Dye

Pepe Ray
03-23-2007, 01:14 PM
The 6.5x54 MS is identical to the 6.5x53 Carc but for 1mm in l.
WHOOPS-- Guess we have a communication problem here.--
Could you possibly mean ( 6.5x53R Mann,- Dutch & Romanian)?
If so i'll back up and take a breath.
Pepe Ray

45 2.1
03-23-2007, 01:44 PM
I have been driving myself to distraction trying to round up cases for the 6.5x53 Mannlicher-Schoenaur. One of our members generously sent me a few that he had kicking around, and I have been able to shoot it enough to realize that the rifle is a tack driver. Though from the outside, it looks to have been on the losing end of more than one war, I think it will make a nice deer rifle and really want to scrounge up more brass for it. All supplies appear to have dried up completely, at least I have been unable to come up with any in a year of searching, except for collectors samples for $3+ per round.
Sooooo, I guess it's time to do it the hard way. I have ordered the Manual of Cartridge Conversions, but wanted some feedback in the mean time. I think I can make them from 220Swift cases by turning down the rim, fl sizing, trimming, and fireforming. Does this seem like a workable solution, or is there a fly in the ointment I'm not seeing?

Do you have a lathe or access to one? If so there is an easy solution useing military 30-06 cases. I lathe turn the outside straight from head forward until it doesn't cut useing Donnelys method in his cartridge conversion book. Polish the cut with crocus cloth, size and trim. Start off with sized cases in a 30-06 size headed cartridge that has maximum body taper. Case walls are more than thick enough for this.

piwo
03-23-2007, 02:19 PM
Us untaleneted schleps would just send an empty case to Rocky Mountain Cartridge in Cody, WY, and have Dave make some from scratch. I'm sure he'd even put your name on the case head. :-D

Of course, us untalented schleps are poor because of this. :(

wiljen
03-23-2007, 03:05 PM
Us really untalented schleps just buy them from norma for $74 a hundred. 6.5x54 MS that is. [smilie=1:

Try Here -> http://www.gunaccessories.com/Norma/index.asp


Wiljen

Pepe Ray
03-23-2007, 03:14 PM
Some may be able to read minds or just be lucky or maybe the usual situation where I've just overlooked something.
Have we established just exactly which of the many 6.5 ctgs. is being discussed?
Pepe Ray

wiljen
03-23-2007, 03:26 PM
Based on the descriptions of converting 30-06 or 220 swift - I was assuming the 6.5x54 MS or 6.5x53 rimless.

Pepe Ray
03-23-2007, 04:07 PM
Wiljen;
Versifier said nothing about the '06 case. Only the Swift.
I too first assumed the MS or Carc. but when I went to COTW #9 it shows the Carc as 52mm not 53 and the 53mm length as for the Rimmed Dutch-Romanian and as he stated that he'd need to turn off the rim I got stumped.

So,-- We'd better get it clear which ctg. he's talkin' about. Right???
Pepe Ray

Pepe Ray
03-23-2007, 04:47 PM
It may be that Dye made the correct guess. Even tho the M-S is 54mm.
When I got a carb. chambered in 6.5x54MS, it was just before Norma announced that they were discontinuing that case, so I picked up 100 at MFO. Twas not too long after that Hornady started making cases for the Carc. The only difference is a couple of mm in length OA. Actually .045". I'm sure I could be happy with those.
IAC, there are several 6.5 mil-surps out there. Best to be sure before handing out advice.
Pepe Ray

georgewxxx
03-23-2007, 05:06 PM
6 months ago I bought 50 Norma's from Black Hills Shooters Supply for $18 post paid. I see now because of the metal prices going up they want $22. That's $44.25@100 now. You'll need a C&R or a FFL to buy from them...Geo

http://www.bhshooters.com/index.htm

wiljen
03-23-2007, 06:57 PM
Wiljen;
Versifier said nothing about the '06 case. Only the Swift.
I too first assumed the MS or Carc. but when I went to COTW #9 it shows the Carc as 52mm not 53 and the 53mm length as for the Rimmed Dutch-Romanian and as he stated that he'd need to turn off the rim I got stumped.

So,-- We'd better get it clear which ctg. he's talkin' about. Right???
Pepe Ray

Agreed, We could use some clarification as I'm a bit lost too. It seems if he was talking the 53 rimless (aka the 6.5x54 MS) that brass wouldn't have been so hard to find. If we are speaking of the Rimmed Dutch-Romanian, then I'm lost as to why you'd turn down the rim.

versifier
03-23-2007, 10:46 PM
I was looking for the rimless case.
Wiljen, thank you for the link - even Google couldn't find it. I just ordered up a hundred.
Looking at the specs in COTW, the .22 Swift, based on the 6mm Lee Navy, seemed about the closest fit. I do have a lathe, and it looks like all I have to do is recut the rim/extractor groove and trim before running through the sizing die. I am gratified at all the responses and will still likely go for it at some point in the future. It's good to know that -06 size cases can be converted, too.
Sorry for the confusion - it is the 6.5x54MS - brain cramp.[smilie=1: The Lee Collet die in 6.5 Swede works great on it for neck sizing.
Can the Carcano cases be fired in the MS? I won't tell Ted Kennedy.

wiljen
03-25-2007, 09:31 AM
Wiljen, thank you for the link - even Google couldn't find it. I just ordered up a hundred.

I don't know why they don't advertise more. They usually aren't the cheapest as I order most of my stuff from wideners/midway but they do carry a few things the others don't.

versifier
03-28-2007, 03:48 PM
I just got an email from the company cancelling my order because the brass is no longer available.:violin: Oh well. Anybody else know of other possible sources? (No C&R or FFL) The book is due here sometime this week, though, so I'm not going to be high and dry. Thanks for all your input, too.

4060MAY
03-28-2007, 06:47 PM
Graf shows it in stock 55/100
http://www.grafs.com/metallic/707

also Buffalo Arms

http://www.buffaloarms.com/search.htm?step=2&viewfrom=1&numresults=10&searchterm=6.5x54

versifier
03-28-2007, 09:40 PM
Thanks for the links, both worth a try. Placed a Graf's order first. Couldn't hurt to give them a shot (I seem to remember trying Graf's already, but my memory isn't what it never was.) If no joy, I'll try Buffalo. Most places SAY they have them on their websites. So far no one has actually had any. I'll try the Carcano cases next if this fails, then I have a ton of .308 & -06 cases.

Pepe Ray
03-29-2007, 12:15 AM
I havn't been keeping up with advertised acces'ys for a while but, Norma discontinued the M-S case 10 or more years ago. I didn't panic cause they were making Carcanos and I knew I could make do w/them. Then later on Hornady stared making Carc. cartridges and selling componants. Whoopie!!
You might get lucky and find some M-S cases lounging on a dusty shelf but you've got options before chucking '06 cases in your lathe or machining Swifts.
Grafs has been advertising the Hornadys for some time.
Pepe Ray

uscra112
03-30-2007, 12:35 AM
I think there's some disconnect here with repspect to the suggestion about turning down .30-06 cases. The 6.5 M-S has a .447 nominal base diameter. Far too small to be simply machined from the .30-06 brass, which starts at .470. Machining .30-06 WOULD work for the 8mm M-S cartridge, which has a nominal .465 base diameter.

Studying my well-thumbed copy of Cartridges of the World, it seems that the only common case other than the Swift that has that .445 base diameter is the Krag, which is rimmed. The .35 Rem and the 7.62x39 are also close on base diam, but much too short. So the Carcano looks like a good bet if it can be bought.

I have successfully reduced base diameters by pressing them though an appropriately sized drill bushing, but it takes a hydraulic press to do it, and you have to make a special punch with a pilot to keep the primer pocket from shrinking.

As it happens that .445 base diameter is near and dear to me, because I own one of the few Czech 7.62x45 battle rifles that landed on these shores with a half-decent barrel. (Most had bores totally ruined by the corrosive issue ammo.)

I'm looking for a .444 Marlin sizing die right now, because pressing .35 Rem brass right through it may yield the .445 base diameter necessary. Nominally the .444 neck is .453. I'm hoping the die may yield .450 or less. If that won't do it, then the neck of a .44-40 is nominally .443". A little small, but it can be honed out. For the M-S, pressing .270 brass might be possible, perhaps in 2-3 stages.

Ross
03-30-2007, 02:35 AM
RCBS used to make base-swaging dies, and others still do. I've used the Riceone die for making 6.5x50 Arisaka from '06. It is a bit of a chore, but doable under duress. The extractor groove usually needs cleaning up, and the primer pocket probably should be trued up.
I cannot say what the brass hardness of the swaged base is like.
The $35.98 per hundred for the Graf Carcano cases from Huntington's would tempt me to use that. Perhaps it would grow up as it ages.

45 2.1
03-30-2007, 06:51 AM
I think there's some disconnect here with repspect to the suggestion about turning down .30-06 cases. No disconnect at all. I can see that you have not tried it as suggested. The 6.5 M-S has a .447 nominal base diameter. True Far too small to be simply machined from the .30-06 brass, which starts at .470. Measure some actual military cases and find out what they actually measure, just don't assume things. Form some and section them, compare against some factory cases and see for yourself.

holycross
03-30-2007, 08:42 AM
Versifier,

Probably need to do a chamber cast to check dimensions for your rifle.
Depending upon which 6.5 you have.
6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carccano:
.220 swift cut-off rim and deepen extractor groove.size in 6.5 M/C sizer. Trim to length. F/L size. 270 may also be used by swaging base to .446", annealing, sizing and I.D.neck reaming.

6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer:
220 swift cut-off rim and deepen extractor groove.size in 6.5 M/C sizer. Trim to length. Chamfer.

6.5x54 Mauser:
From 270. size in f/l 6.5x54 die with expander removed. Trim to length and chamfer. F/L size. I.D. neck ream. some rifles use std .264 bullets others need .262 bullets.

Above taken from 1st ed. manual of cartridge conversion.
From reading online Donnelly's book has some errors's best to double check from actual rifle and fired cases.

Mark Holycross

TAWILDCATT
04-09-2007, 08:58 PM
I believe cutting 06 with lath to be a touchy job.they cut the heavy base back to the side wall and size.all these cartriges can be bought from graf I just bought 6.5 jap/6.5 carcarno/8 mm lebel. 6.5 jap can be made by sizing 35 rem in 2 stages. I bought .220 swift rem and the diam. was not to spec.I ended with 100 rds that bulged 19 tho.2 shots and I have 98 useless cases. 6.5 dutch can be made from 303brit.I made some for fellow who bought a dutch rifle.

dyeager535
06-29-2013, 09:02 PM
I understand this is an ancient post, and dredging them up is generally frowned upon. But seeing as this is the only thread I readily find online talking about 6.5x53 MS brass, this might help others in the future.

Background story, my Cousin inherited some ammo that had been our Grandfathers. He has a x54, but for some reason Grandpa had x53MS ammo as well, so my Cousin got both.

Anyway, to get to the meat of it. He asked if it was safe to shoot in the x54, so I pulled out the 1952 "Complete Guide to Handloading" by Philip Sharpe that came from the same Grandpa. In regards to making brass, it states: "By turning off some of the semi-rim on the .220 Swift and resizing in a full length die for the 6.5 x 53,. one fire-forming gives usable brass." Just like the OP suggested. I have no idea if someone has started making the x53, but if not...

It also states that .276 Pedersen brass can be used to fireform from (if a bit short) but I suspect we aren't wallowing in .276 brass nowadays.

This is somewhat in tribute to my Grandpa, I know long ago he would have gladly shared information such as this. Maybe someone else can be helped too.

Artful
06-30-2013, 01:06 AM
Sounds like your grandpa had a good collection, I hope you got to go out with him many times.
A good book on making cases for odd ball calibers was George Nonte's - Home guide to caliber converions
a more current book is John Donnelly's - Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions

gandydancer
06-30-2013, 01:15 AM
is the military ammo boxer primed?? if so I just sold about 400 rounds I had laying around for years of loaded ammo to a dealer here in town. I may have a few left my self. I'll check.and if you want the dealers number let me know. He still has the ammo put away for his own use. Gandy




I have been driving myself to distraction trying to round up cases for the 6.5x53 Mannlicher-Schoenaur. One of our members generously sent me a few that he had kicking around, and I have been able to shoot it enough to realize that the rifle is a tack driver. Though from the outside, it looks to have been on the losing end of more than one war, I think it will make a nice deer rifle and really want to scrounge up more brass for it. All supplies appear to have dried up completely, at least I have been unable to come up with any in a year of searching, except for collectors samples for $3+ per round.
Sooooo, I guess it's time to do it the hard way. I have ordered the Manual of Cartridge Conversions, but wanted some feedback in the mean time. I think I can make them from 220Swift cases by turning down the rim, fl sizing, trimming, and fireforming. Does this seem like a workable solution, or is there a fly in the ointment I'm not seeing?

uscra112
06-30-2013, 03:25 AM
I think there's some disconnect here with repspect to the suggestion about turning down .30-06 cases. No disconnect at all. I can see that you have not tried it as suggested. The 6.5 M-S has a .447 nominal base diameter. True Far too small to be simply machined from the .30-06 brass, which starts at .470. Measure some actual military cases and find out what they actually measure, just don't assume things. Form some and section them, compare against some factory cases and see for yourself.

I'm not assuming anything. I have done it. There's not enough wall thickness left at the base to satisfy me. The wall thickness is reduced close to the base such that it will concentrate all the stretch in that small area, and you'll soon get head separations. BTW it makes no difference whether you start with LC military or R-P/WW/FC commercial cases, the weights are the same, and so are the wall thicknesses.

oldred
06-30-2013, 11:04 AM
As Dyeager pointed out this is an ancient thread, it's 5 years old.

waksupi
06-30-2013, 11:13 AM
Np problem with bringing up old threads. I encourage it, as it keeps like information together.

gandydancer
06-30-2013, 02:22 PM
oh man! I have got to learn to look at the post dates on here before I open my big mouth. GD

oldred
06-30-2013, 02:58 PM
Np problem with bringing up old threads. I encourage it, as it keeps like information together.



Agreed, but how often do we see 5 year old questions answered as if they were asked yesterday? Certainly nothing wrong even with doing that if it's of benefit to someone. However I was not complaining about an old thread (I would have had no right to complain anyway) I was just pointing out that it was rather dated since apparently it had already taken off in that direction.