45 slugs not performing. Hollow point a mold? Change alloy?

[MBTcustom]

I am a .45 guy from the word go. I think the men in my family have been carrying 45s since John Browning said "hey look at this new idea of mine" My dad carried one as did his dad and probably his dad, and now I am carrying one too. We have all carried cast-lead boolits also, (with the exception of grandpa, who got all his ammo Mil-surp)
The thing is, yesterday, I shot a few of them into phone books and was not happy with the resultant slug. It was almost the same shape as it was when it went in. I am using a time honored alloy that is 96/2/2. It works real well for getting the boolit out of the barrel, but I was disappointed with the slightly deformed slug that I pulled from the yellow pages in the third phone book. It seems that penetration is too good on these babies and I need to either do something about the alloy, or I need to hollow-point one of my molds or something I haven't thought of.
Seeing as how the answer to this question could take almost any direction, I decided to post here in the most popular section.
What should I do to get that slug to stop one phone book earlier and expand properly?
Or should I even be worrying about it?

[MT Gianni]

What results do you want? If it expanded 10% you would be at 1/2" or what a Nosler Partition wants from a 30 cal j-word. I don't think expansion is the key with the 45 but placement. A swc shape or BD profile would cause me to be more comfortable in Wolf Country [two or four legs] than a rn 230 gr.

[btroj]

I think you are going to need to go much softer than 96/2/2 to any expansion at the velocity of a 45.
Yu could try 16/1 lead /tin or just do what was already stated- don't worry aout expansion.

[MBTcustom]

If, God forbid, I am ever in a confrontation, I dont want the boolit going through the assailant and endangering someone on the other side. I want them to stop somewhere between his chest hair and his backbone. Which is 12"-20" on most bad guys. Yesterday, my boolits penetrated 7" of wet phone book which is much better at stopping boolits than a human torso. I am certain that those boolits would have punched right through a bad guy with enough power left to hurt someone on the other side.
I was considering casting up some soft-nosed boolits like Bruce describes, or hollow pointing one of my 45 molds (I have several). I dont mean to make more out of this than there has to be, or make light of the severity of the situation that I am talking about, but I do think its worth asking friends for advice about what would be best. Considering that the ammo I have now feeds well, and I can hit what I am aiming at with it, it might be best to leave things as they are. If there is no definite improvement to be made over what I am doing already, then I'll just forget it.

[Finster101]

What results do you want? If it expanded 10% you would be at 1/2" or what a Nosler Partition wants from a 30 cal j-word. I don't think expansion is the key with the 45 but placement. A swc shape or BD profile would cause me to be more comfortable in Wolf Country [two or four legs] than a rn 230 gr.

Interesting. I have a Lee 452-252 SWC that I was thinking about getting hollow pointed. I'm thinking with a not too hard alloy it should provide very good stopping power. Any thoughts?

[SlippShodd]

I'm on round 4 of an experiment like this myself, lathe boring bullets to HP them. I started with my typical alloy of WCWW + a little tin, which barely upset in 6" of phone books (though it tumbled :) ). This was after my first round that shot through 7 water filled 1-gallon milk jugs, then skipped off the berm into the atmoshere. Second round of alloy went 16:1 and still penetrated 5 inches of phone books and looked like I could just reload it again. Got somewhat better results when I filled the nose with Shoe-Goo to stop the plugging. Shoe-Goo over a #5 or so steel shot pellet made the pellet seem superfluous. Went to AC 20:1 but the bullets are too soft to chuck in a lathe securely without deforming them. Did get enough to try test loads that hopefully I can fire tomorrow. Instead of getting any real work done now, I'll have to go build a collet to hold my bullets full diameter. :rolleyes:

[Harter66]

I tend to over simplify things .

The real virtue of the 45 whether its a GAP or a Lott or somewhere inbetween is that it makes a big hole. If for what ever reason it doesn't make a big hole upon arriving at the target it dumps a huge amount of energy. I look at it this way even if it gets balled up in heavy fabrics your still hurling volkswagons.

While you may punch clear through a pig,bear,or deer they aren't wearing 3 layers of dienum or leather or vest . I think your cartrige and boolit are just doing what you loaded them to do.

1 more thought is the bad guy certain to be a 90# spun out coke head or a really angry 400# biker lotta differenc in where the spine/shoulder blade stop is.

[MtGun44]

How about this?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=2905

In my experience, ballistic gelatin penetration will be twice as deep, expansion will be
the same. This was very wet phone books.

Bill

[Wayne Smith]

One easy answer - cut your alloy 50% with pure lead. This will soften it to about the equal of 20-1 and is easier to do. One of Miha's penta point molds will handle this fine.

[MT Chambers]

I think that any of the Hollow points from Noe, Meha, or whomever, would do what you want, with a softer alloy......Most of my 30-1 alloy BP bullets, will expand esp. the HP ones.

[9.3X62AL]

I can't carry handloads for social engagements. The End.

I am obliged to carry W-W Ranger SXT 180s in 40 S&W and Ranger SXT 230s in 45 ACP. Both bullets after removal at autopsy or trauma unit look a lot like Mtn Gun's photos. No complaints from me.

I load cast boolit "duplicators" for training and practice.

[BD]

I own a couple boxes of Ranger RTs so I can carry them when dressing up to go to town where I might encounter a crowd. They have nickle plated cases and seem to hold up well in the box. I don't shoot them much, maybe a box every two years or so. They feed and shoot exactly the same as the BD acp For the rest of the world, I'm using the BD acps cast from WW as I want a big hole all the way through anything that worries me enough to shoot it. I have a couple of hollow point .45 molds. They are more of a PITA to cast and don't hold a group well at 100 yards, so most all of my cast boolit .45 acp shootin' is Bd acps.
BD

[mpmarty]

As the fella said, while 9mm may expand, the 45 doesn't contract.

[MBTcustom]

Just to be clear, I have no problem with the fact that the boolit didn't expand. 452 is plenty big of a hole. I have a problem with how much penetration I got. The end. I just figured that getting the boolit to open up quicker would be a better scenario for limiting the penetration. That being said, all of the boolits I shot wound up sideways when I found them so that makes 'em even uglier. I am not concerned with hitting a gong 100 yards away. I am concerned with (Oh my gosh!-grab my gun-blam blam blam) at the guy thats 10 feet away, and not kill the guy that was just standing there 20 feet away with pass through's. All of this is highly unlikely and the specificity of the situation is making my head hurt.
I think I may hollow point one of these molds, or try some H&G 68's to see how they do.

[Shooter6br]

I cast the Milhec 200 g HP ewith 20-1 alloy My pics look like the ones already displayed . i use Unique 6.5 graions Water jugs ( milk bottles) Goes thur 3 at 7 rds

[runfiverun]

a rn will penetrate thats what they do.
if you make them open quickly penetration is reduced [sometimes substantially] and might just cause a very shallow wound.
no matter which way you go the bullet won't just go through the dude and drop to the ground.
30-1 or 40-1 even 50-1 at 850 fps will open quite quickly,and pure lead can be made to work in the acp.
i think thats the best way to cut down on penetration.
soft lead opening as large as you can make it, to dissipate energy inside of what you hit.

[Cherokee]

I like the truncated cone shape, the meplat will reduce penetration. Same for the SWC shape.

[L Ross]

I think misses are a greater danger to bystanders than over penetration. Not knowing how big an assailant might be, what they might be wearing, or if there is cover to defeat, I'll take that penetration with a 45 calber hole.

Duke

[AR-15 Cowboy]

I would just soften the boolit with a higher lead ratio to cause it to mushroom.
do you have any idea of the Brinell number of the boolits you're shooting now?

[35remington]

Yep.

If there's someone behind the guy you're shooting at, your misses are as large or larger threat to him as any "pass throughs."

If an autoloader platform, the bullet must be feed reliable. Whatever you do to that bullet cannot take away from reliability. If it does, the modification wasn't worth the tradeoff.

Truthfully, if you're looking for expansion, there are a great many jacketed bullets that do it well, and are feed reliable.

Maybe you ought to take advantage of the dollars spent by the R and D from those companies.

For myself, I've discovered that if a solid, deep penetrating 45 ACP is desired it's nice to have a bit of a flat point on the bullet. RCBS 230 RNFP for me, in my 1911 in seven shot Colt factory (Checkmate hybrid) type magazines with Wolff springs.

Jacketed HP's if an expanding bullet is wanted.

[Mk42gunner]

A RN is not the best for transferring shock to the target. A couple of things you could easily try are softer alloys, I'm thinking something on the order of 20-1 and nearly pure lead, and see how they do in your expansion media.

The next option is to use a SWC or TC with a big meplat.

Then comes a HP mold, with testing to determine the best alloy for expansion.

Or you could buy a box of Federal Hydrashoks or whatever brandname trips your fancy.

Whatever you do, make sure it is dependable. I know if I ever get back into the anti-personnel mode, I want to use a 5"/54 with HE.

Robert

[nicholst55]

Shot placement is king; penetration is queen. All else is angels dancing on the head of a pin. I'd rather have a .452" bullet penetrate to the vitals and NOT expand than I would a .358" bullet NOT penetrate to the vitals and expand 100%.

[dbarnhart]

I am quite happy to shoot cast boolits all day long for practice but my 'carry' round is Speer Gold Dot.

[Larry Gibson]

Perhaps I missed it but exactly which bullet design not expanding are we talking about?

Larry Gibson

[GT27]

Soft and slow! The way I like my women!! For carry Speer Gold Dotz! GT27

[MBTcustom]

Sorry, that was the Lee 230grain RN TL design.

[DLCTEX]

RN is not going to expand very well. I had Buckshot hp a 452-423 mould (Ideal) for me and cast with 50/50, WW/lead and it expanded to 3/4 in. after penetrating 7-8 in. in sand while retaining 100% of it's weight (228 gr). About 850 fps.

[Sonnypie]

I got new phone books last week,
And... well...
Phone books just ain't what they used to be!

Find a wet manure pile and shoot that.
It is far better a representation of most bad guys. ;-)

[fredj338]

Almost all solid bullets end up sideways in the target media, but it's at the end of the path, so little add'l. wounding is evident. You'll never get a lead bullet to expand @ 45acp vel w/ some help. A dead soft LRN may smash up a bit if it hits bone, but still not going to expand. No, it needs some kind of HP or cup point or something. The Lyman Dev is a good factory mold, but slow & only makes it to 200gr. Erik did a penta point for me on a Lyman 230grRN to give me this bullet. I would happily use this in a SHTF scenario for SD loads. Miha makes a sim design, you can see in wet phone books (how you should test BTW) expansion is very good.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg

[MBTcustom]

wet phone books is how I tested these loads.
Could you possibly post a closeup of the HP pin and the mold?

[fredj338]

wet phone books is how I tested these loads.
Could you possibly post a closeup of the HP pin and the mold?
I'll have to take a pic of that mold. It's A lyman converted by Erik @ HPMS. it looks sim to this 9mm, but 5 sided pin instead of 4 & it has both cavs done.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/9mm-136-1200.jpg

[fcvan]

I have a pair of Lee Conical molds for an 1858 Remington BP copy. They are designed slightly tapered to load into the cylinders. As many of my Lee molds do, these molds cast a tad larger than the advertised .450, and so they have worked well in my .45 ACP after running them through my sizer.

One mold is double cavity, and the other is a single cavity hollow point mold. I found the hollow point in a black powder mountain man type store back in the '80s. The shop owner said it had been sitting on the shelf for years so he let me have it for $12 bucks.

Both shoot well in my Springfield Armory .45 and also in my H&R Classic Carbine in .45 Colt. I'm waiting to try these with PB gas checks when Pat sends my check makers. I imagine the 200 gr RNHP will be a dandy performer in both guns but will really shine in the carbine with .45 Colt +P loads. I also plan on experimenting with copper electroplating for some 'Sunday, go to meeting' boolits. Frank

[429421Cowboy]

I think i understand your question, seems as though there are many different opinions on this one, some relavent to the topic, some not.
I would say soften up the alloy a bit and go for a HP design. In our tests with the .45 Colt at ACP velocitys or slightly above (750+fps) in phone books we had to try a near pure lead RNFP to finally see satifactory expansion before gross over-penetration. I agree that over penetrating is something to be concerned with, obviously placement is key but if you put your rounds on target and still hit people behind him that could be an issue. I might also consider using a jacketed bullet with proven record, not that i buy the "handloads are bad for SD" line but in terms of relyable function and predictable results.

[leftiye]

The .45 acp Lyman 452374 Devastator is a truly awesome cast boolit! It should have no problem opening up, and is the classic .45 acp round nose design with no modification except the hollow point. Doesn't jam in my .45s.

[Grapeshot]

Round nosed bullets are great in penetration but lack the wound making effects of a hollow point or soft cast RNFP or TC boolits. Lee's RNFP in either 200 grain or 250 grain choice will deliver more energy into the target and since over penetration is your concern, go with the 200 grainer RNFP. If you'd feel better with a hollowpoint, go with the same RNFP with a HP modification. Penetration will be reduced but shock to the target will go up. And that's what you want, incapacitation due to rapid drop in Blood Pressure causing unconscienceness. If death follows soon after, well that's the risk the perp took when he/she took up a life of crime.

[Larry Gibson]

RN is not going to expand very well.

+1 on everything posted about using a correct bullet design and alloy that will aloww expansion.

Larry Gibson

[mpmarty]

How about a lighter boolit of 155 to 185 gr at over 1000 fps? Shouldn't penetrate too much I'd think.

[MikeS]

I don't think a hollow point will expand at 45ACP speeds unless it's cast very soft, and if cast that soft it might have feed problems depending on what gun you're shooting it out of. I've gone with a boolit very similar to the BD design, Accurate Molds' 45-250A. I think having a large flat meplat has a better chance of doing damage to a bad guy than shooting a round nosed HP. As for it penetrating too much, I think that there's a fairly good chance of the boolit hitting bone (either ribs, or spine) which will either slow the boolit considerably, or deflect it in a direction that should be safer than if it just came out the back of the creep.

[honus]

Years ago, I used to distribute Albert’s Bullets. If my memory is still intact, I believe they were all swaged 3% antimony and were lubed with something similar to LLA and motor mica.
As a distributor, I shot thousands of them and my favorites were the 130 grain SWC-HP (9mm) and their 225 grain SWC-HP designed for the 45 acp. With the proper seating depth, both fed flawlessly, were extremely accurate and expanded well at 800 fps when fired into ballistic gel.
As I recall, Albert’s also provided some southern state a 255 grain SWC-HP for the S&W 45 Colt revolvers carried by their Highway Patrol. I believe Federal Loaded the Cartridge.
Well, that was 25 years ago, and I still have a few boxes of the gems left for special occasions. My casting experience has taught me to cast a 50/50 or softer WW/pure lead SWC or TC, push it at 800 fps and it should be a reliable stopper. I never had one exit a whitetail or hog.

[fredj338]

I don't think a hollow point will expand at 45ACP speeds unless it's cast very soft, and if cast that soft it might have feed problems depending on what gun you're shooting it out of. I've gone with a boolit very similar to the BD design, Accurate Molds' 45-250A. I think having a large flat meplat has a better chance of doing damage to a bad guy than shooting a round nosed HP. As for it penetrating too much, I think that there's a fairly good chance of the boolit hitting bone (either ribs, or spine) which will either slow the boolit considerably, or deflect it in a direction that should be safer than if it just came out the back of the creep.

As you can see, mine are cast 25-1. lead/tin, & expand very consitantly from 850fps to 950fps. The Lyman Dev 200gr LHP cast the same, will expand down to 800fps.

[Flinchrock]

a little late here,,,I think you'll find the HG 68 just might do what you want,,accurate as hell to boot!

[Dale53]

Here is the answer to "excessive" penetration. The bullets are Mihec's 200 gr Penta Hollow Point with a round nose for perfect feeding. Drive these at 1000 fps and cast of 20/1 and they WORK. Expansion is in the neighborhood of .80 caliber and reliable. These shown are in Auto Rim cases but they work the same way in the .45 ACP.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3332.jpg

Dale53