300 Win Mag questions

[M1DM84]

My rifle Remington 700 Sendaro, Checking with a Stoney Point
It is blowing the shoulder forward about .015". I have shot Winchester and Remington ammo. Factory shoulders on both are within .005" or less and both move forward after firing about .015". It isn't changing the OAL just shoulder.
I found this when I got ready to reload and bump the shoulder back a couple.
Is this about a normal amount?
Too much?
Thanks in advance for the help
Also I would be willing to listen to any loads...bullet likes for hunting...any thing you would like to share would be great
Thanks
Eugene

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Not an unusual thing. I had a 300 on which the shoulder was a bit forward, but not a big thing.

Do not, I repeat do not follow the directions - at least RCBS for setting up a full length sizing die. Hornady is a bit better as they at least point out the possibility of a problem.

Rather , always, with any bottle neck cartridge, size the minimum amount needed for a case fired in you chamber to return to your firearm's chamber.

I have provided the information on custom adjusting full length sizing dies so many times, that I make a pooter dociment out of it.

Send me a "PM" with your "E" address and I'll send it along, or can send along a printed document if you send me your "snail Mail" address.

The problem is called manufacturing tolerences, and it is a fact of life in all manufacturing.

We just need to learn how to live with it and work around it in such things as sizing bottle neck cartridge cases.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Lloyd Smale]

Like old coot said it wont hurt anything. Just set your die to not bump back the shoulder. Only problem youd run into is if you have two 300s your loaded ammo might not chamber in another one. Kind of odd though as ive got a pile of 700s and if anything they tend to have chambers that run on the tight side some to the point a guy has to use small base dies. I havent found a 700 yet that was large in the chamber like yours.

[flounderman]

the belted cases headspace on the belt. as long as the case will chamber, it is counter productive to size any more than is necessary. you will get your best accuracy with sizing about half the neck. as long as the case enters the chamber freely and extract easily, don't wear the brass out resizing it.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well the last two posts say most of it.

However, the belted case head spacing on the belt, can be a problem, depending on just where the manufacturing tolerences happened to fall during the cutting of your chamber and dies.

Better to head space on the shoulder and just enjoy the "cool" factor of the belt.

On short neck cartridges - note flounderman's comment - such as the .300 win Mag, .300 savage, .243 etc. etc. a person must make sure the neck is sized down far enough to provide a secure hold on the bullet. Other then that size the case to the minimum that will allow it to again chamber in your firearm.

I have loaded for all of the above ++ and have never had a problem with a neck being able to securely hold the bullet.

AS Lloyd indicates, Setting up a set of dies for one firearm chamber can give a problem if you are loading for multiple firearms with the same chamber.

Personally, be'in an Ol'Coot, I come down to having a set of dies dedicated to each chamber if needed. It is eather that, or pay the price for short brass life and less then optimum reload consistancy.

Remember, we are talking about bottle neck cartridges here. Should be no such issues with a non- bottle neck design.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[GaryN]

I just have one 300 win mag. I use a neck sizer. Haven't had any problems with it. Brass seems to last pretty long. But I don't shoot it as much as some of my other guns. It is a win mod 70. It loves imr 4350 and 180 gr. grand slams. I would start at about 67 grains and move up as you test. cci large rifle mag primer.This is not a max load. My load is a max load. But you will have to find your max load. It shoots 1 1/2 moa.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

GaryN,

Not at all picking on your powder choice, but -----

If your into that sort of thing - testing/higher velocity etc. -, there are more effective powders available now.

Yes, the 4350, 4831 etc. are STILL good ones, but ones like Reloader 22, IMR7828 are at times better.

The deer/elk/moose will never know the difference.

I am not saying that a 165gr bullet is the way to go for a 300, not at all, but I had a Browning A-Bolt with an extremely bad barrel and tried a number of different powders and bullets before finding a some what consistant load with the 165gr Nosler Partition.

When I missed a do-able shot, the rifle had to go and it was replaced with a RUGER Hawkeye, stainless/plastic that although not as smooth - in the action department - as the Browning is everything the browning wasn't in all other areas.

The barrel is beautiful, it shoots the Browning's best loads way better and running some test loads I saw a bit over 3400fps with a 3 shot group of just a tad over 5/8". This was with IMR7828. WOW!

The loads developed for the Browning were with RL22 and because they shoot well in the RUGER and I loaded up a bunch of hunting loads because of a move and not knowing when I'd be able to load again I am just going to shoot them up.

If I was not shooting a bullet with the integrity of the Nosler Partition or something equal, I'd consider that bullet wt. to be way light for a 300.

Neck sizing for your 300 is OK. Over the years, I have had a few neck sizing dies, but all and all I have just never seen that they do anything - other then relieve me of hard earned bucks - that properly adjusted full length dies didn't do as well.

Not saying that isn't a possibility in some cases, just that it has never proved out for me.

Anyway, enjoy that rifle and go out and get a big elk for me! Have hunted Utah a couple of times, a cow hunt on one of the indian reservations. Had a good time and great eating elk.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[o6Patient]

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot has said it all "Neck sizing for your 300 is OK. Over the years, I have had a few neck sizing dies, but all and all I have just never seen that they do anything - other then relieve me of hard earned bucks - that properly adjusted full length dies didn't do as well."

This has been my experience with the 300win mag also. Especially if it's a hunting round, you will want
it to cycle smoothly so the shoulder will need to be bumped ever so slightly and then it will head space
on the shoulder and cycle without a problem. At this point it won't ..or shouldn't stretch nearly the 15
thou it did on the first firing. I've had excellent consistency w/ RL 22 for what it's worth.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Interesting o6Patient, and I think, right on!

I once had a batch of 300win mag brass that after the first firing it was very clearly seen that there was a good amount of fireforming taking place.

Now it could have been a chamber that was a bit long, good possibility, or it could have been new brass which was a bit short. Considering manufacturing tolerances, both are good possibilities.

Then, lets say we throw in a sizing die that happens to be on the short/small side of the +/- manufacturing situation, and if you follow some manufactures die set up instructions, your brass life will likely be about 3 shots. If your lucky!

So, as I've said before in many places, on bottle neck brass, always adjust your full length dies to size the minimum amount which will allow brass fired in YOUR CHAMBER to be again chambered in YOUR CHAMBER after sizing.

Seldom do you need the expense of a "neck" size die, as in VERY SELDOM, as long as your properly set up your full length sizing die.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Lloyd Smale]

thats what i do too. If i have 3 rifles in the same caliber i usually keep a set of dies for each with a sizer and bullet seating die set for that gun.
Well the last two posts say most of it.

However, the belted case head spacing on the belt, can be a problem, depending on just where the manufacturing tolerences happened to fall during the cutting of your chamber and dies.

Better to head space on the shoulder and just enjoy the "cool" factor of the belt.

On short neck cartridges - note flounderman's comment - such as the .300 win Mag, .300 savage, .243 etc. etc. a person must make sure the neck is sized down far enough to provide a secure hold on the bullet. Other then that size the case to the minimum that will allow it to again chamber in your firearm.

I have loaded for all of the above ++ and have never had a problem with a neck being able to securely hold the bullet.

AS Lloyd indicates, Setting up a set of dies for one firearm chamber can give a problem if you are loading for multiple firearms with the same chamber.

Personally, be'in an Ol'Coot, I come down to having a set of dies dedicated to each chamber if needed. It is eather that, or pay the price for short brass life and less then optimum reload consistancy.

Remember, we are talking about bottle neck cartridges here. Should be no such issues with a non- bottle neck design.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Reading back on a few posts, the short neck thing caught my eye.

I know that short necks seem to be an issue with some folk, just like my friend who has a "thing" about any belted cartridge, but--------------

I listed a number of "short neck" cartridges I have loaded over the years, but the shortest is one I failed to mention.

That would have been with the 30 Gibbs wild cat, based on a blown out and forward 30/06 case.

When the fellow reamed my 06 chamber out to 30 Gibbs, he went a bit deep for what ever reason, making for a very short neck on the ammo formed and shot in my rifle. Remember, the 30 Gibbs is already a "short neck" cartridge but my 30 Gibbs "magnum" ended up with a really really short neck!

NOT A PROBLEM, NOT ONE!! Not even a hint of one.

Now, had I adjusted the 30 Gibbs sizing die according to some manufactures instructions it would have been a major problem.

Not the "short neck" as I have never had a problem with those, ever, but the fact that the shoulder was blown out much farther then a standard Gibbs shoulder and setting up the sizing die according to manufactures instructions would have caused major brass stress/over working, and caused brass life to be in the three shot range. Maybe.?.?

So, as always, set up your Full Length Dies an size your bottle neck brass the minimum amount that will allow brass fired in YOUR CHAMBER to again chamber in YOUR CHAMBER after sizing.

Lloyd, as usual gives good council in the suggestion of having a set of dies dedicated to each bottle neck chamber, along with keeping your brass segragated.

The exception would likely be if you have multipal "black" rifles such as AR15s etc. where function with what ever ammo is placed into the firearm is very important and of greater consideration then groups or brass life.

I haven't gone there, and not sure is I ever will.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[o6Patient]

Years ago I bought into the "too short neck" argument so I built a 30-338 instead
of the venerable 300 win....I know better now. The brass life problem was exacerbated
by trying to get the same performance of the 300 win out of the 30-338. I've never
had a single problem with the 300win holding the bullet in the neck.

[Lloyd Smale]

not to argue with old coot but ive shot a truck load of deer with the 300win using re19 and a 165 nos bt and ate every one i pulled the trigger on. Ive allways said if a 300 wont shoot a 165 bt or sierra prohunter using re19 into a decent group it probably wont shoot anything decently.
GaryN,

Not at all picking on your powder choice, but -----

If your into that sort of thing - testing/higher velocity etc. -, there are more effective powders available now.

Yes, the 4350, 4831 etc. are STILL good ones, but ones like Reloader 22, IMR7828 are at times better.

The deer/elk/moose will never know the difference.

I am not saying that a 165gr bullet is the way to go for a 300, not at all, but I had a Browning A-Bolt with an extremely bad barrel and tried a number of different powders and bullets before finding a some what consistant load with the 165gr Nosler Partition.

When I missed a do-able shot, the rifle had to go and it was replaced with a RUGER Hawkeye, stainless/plastic that although not as smooth - in the action department - as the Browning is everything the browning wasn't in all other areas.

The barrel is beautiful, it shoots the Browning's best loads way better and running some test loads I saw a bit over 3400fps with a 3 shot group of just a tad over 5/8". This was with IMR7828. WOW!

The loads developed for the Browning were with RL22 and because they shoot well in the RUGER and I loaded up a bunch of hunting loads because of a move and not knowing when I'd be able to load again I am just going to shoot them up.

If I was not shooting a bullet with the integrity of the Nosler Partition or something equal, I'd consider that bullet wt. to be way light for a 300.

Neck sizing for your 300 is OK. Over the years, I have had a few neck sizing dies, but all and all I have just never seen that they do anything - other then relieve me of hard earned bucks - that properly adjusted full length dies didn't do as well.

Not saying that isn't a possibility in some cases, just that it has never proved out for me.

Anyway, enjoy that rifle and go out and get a big elk for me! Have hunted Utah a couple of times, a cow hunt on one of the indian reservations. Had a good time and great eating elk.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

WOW, WAS I EVER WRONG!!!!!

After reading the quote of my posting placed in the last post by Lloyd, I need to go back and correct something, badly!!!! A person could get a very bad reputation with info like that. Oh My!!

In my post and the quote Lloyd used, I stated that I had seen a bit over 3400fps from my RUGER Hawkeye in 300 win mag. WRONG!!!!

Maybe I wish, but I included wrong info.

Rather the three shot test group with IMR7828 and the 165gr Nosler Partition averaged 3318fps and NOT the 3400 I stated.

Now, 3300fps + clearly places this rifle in the group of fast rifles and a group of just over 5/8" C to C is quite nice, but clearly I was suffering an advanced case of, "Ol'Coots" when I stated the incorrect velocity.

Surprised Lloyd didn't caught that or maybe he was just being nice to this Ol'Coot.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Lloyd Smale]

coot i just argued with a guy on another fourm that claimed he gets 117 sierras up to 3400 fps out of his 2506 and even listed loads. Loads that would no doubt lock up alot of guns if not worse. Like talking to a brick wall. to be honest with you 165s at 3300 out of a 300win is warp speed. Ive never owned a 300 win that would do it without at least flattened primers. I usually get to about 3200 with a 165(my accuracy load with re19 runs a bit slower at 3100), 3300 with a 150 and 3000 with a 180. 3300 and maybe a touch more is doable out of my 300wby with a 165.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Lloyd,

I guess you could say I was pleased to see the 3300+ fps.

This out of a 24 inch tube with no sign or indication of pressure problems. I have it flagged for retesting,

I deserved to, "be called" on the error, but glad it was caught before it went any farther!

You have likely read some of my posts where I say that in my experience with a chronograph I have found there to be three basic groups of rifles in the velocity department.

#1 and the largest group, those that fall short of published data and some times by a couple hundred FPS or more.

#2 and a smaller group are those that about meet published data figures.

#3 the smallest group which exceed published data.

This is all while staying within published loading data limits and yes I know that lot to lot differences in components also are a BIG factor in velocities.

I know that the lot # of the powder can really be a BIG factor here, having personally seen a drop of almost a 100fps just with a change from one powder lot to another.

Back some years, Speer had a "to dream about" velocity figure in one of their books for the 300 win mag. I don't doubt they got that figure, but couldn't get within some hundreds of FPS with my 26" barreled #1, while using like components.

If you happen to be a velocity hound, that would have been a fantastic lot number of powder to stock up on.

I suspect that rifle also happened to easily fall into group #3 of the rifles spoken of above.

It is a kick to have someone with you who has their pet game rifle that according to their loading manuals is getting such and such razzle dazzle velocity, then watch their face when the figures pop up on the screen and reality begins to set in.

Some who have already enjoyed sucess with their rifle need to step back and realise that the real life facts of their firearms true velocity will do little to make that rifle any less effective.

Velocity, as you well know, has it's place but for most of us and considering the real life distances at which most game is taken it is likely over sold.

That however, will not keep me from striving for the best groups (#1) and velocity (#2) I can find as I develop hunting loads for the new RUGER American, "06" that recently came to live at my house.

Will be planing to put this "loaner" :mrgreen: :mrgreen: [smilie=1: rifle into the hands of a young hunter I am mentoring, but before hunting season, there will be lots of trigger time and "reduced" practice loads down the tube for the young feller.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Lloyd Smale]

ive seen many load recipes in manuals 300 fps lower in my guns. Probably the worst offender is the 264 mag. The loads listed are about on the same level as 257 roberts loads in pressure. they will give a real lame load and show a velocity that is out of this world. Using about every bit of load data ive found for the 264 i doubt its been more then a handfull of times ive even beat a 270 accross a real chrono. Many of my real world 264 loads have 5-7 grains more powder then the loading manuals list. I personaly think its why many will claim the 264 isnt good out of a 24 inch barrel. they run factory loads or those loads out of modern manuals that are so lame to begin with. Allways kind of chuckled at guys that said you need a 26 inch barrel to make a 264 work but a 24 is great in a 7mag. If there was ever two rounds that were kissing cousins its those two.

to get back on topic ill list some .30 cal bullets that have done well for me in the 300 win
165bt and sierra gameking
180 hornady spirepoint, nos bt, seirra prohunter, nos part.
Ive noticed very little diffence in the killing effect or meat damage between any of these bullets. Run them with a powder with a burn rate of 4350 on the fast side to re22 or 7828 on the slow side and just start shooting different combos to you find what your gun likes. by the way i use only mag primers in the 300 and prefer the fed match mag.

[o6Patient]

I have always shot 180s out of my 300win because if I needed 165s I use my 30-06 AI.
During work up for my present load I noticed that my rifle shot flat based bullets
better than boat tails. My o6 Improved prefers boat tails..don't nessessarily figure but
it rarely ever does. I picked up load development where I had left off with the 30-338
configuration and I had found the sweet powder was H4831 but RL 22 ate its lunch
in the 300win mag. The RL 22 also works very well in the o6 improved but the H414 was
very close in accuracy although not as fast but fast enough. I settled on it because I was looking
to load a ball powder and it does meter most satisfactorily. I do use magnum primers
for both. Regarding conservative information printed I can easily.. Yes I said easily.. get
200fps more out of my Ackley Improved over what "they" tell you you can get.