Lyman 311041-wasted 3 hours

[Philngruvy]

I bought a Lyman 311041 for my win 30-30 last year and I just got around to casting with it today. I cast a nice pile of boolits that took 3 hours out of my day. I learned a lesson. You should cast just a hand full and check them before you waste 3 hours!!! I checked them with my micrometer and they are .3088-.3093.[smilie=b:[smilie=b:
So any advice would be appreciated. Should I Beagle it or lap it or ... ???

[ShooterAZ]

Try loading & shooting some first? You may be OK as is.

[Philngruvy]

Shooter, you might be right but I have shot the Lee 170 gr boolit sized to .309 and my Win 94 did not like them. When I sized them to .311, I got acceptable results. So I am thinking that these 311041s might not work.

[ShooterAZ]

You won't know till you try some. Just load up a handful and try them. You might not have wasted your time.

Shooter

[Philngruvy]

Good point!!!
thanks

[excess650]

Apply your GCs and lube in the .311" die and try them. My CZ 527 shows a decided preference for boolits S&L in .313" vs .312" despite the boolits only being .312".

[RayinNH]

If they don't work out sell the rest in the for sale section...Ray

[Larry Gibson]

What alloy?

What casting temp?

BP or ladle?

Might just be something you're not doing correctly instead of the mould?

Larry Gibson

[Philngruvy]

What alloy?

What casting temp?

BP or ladle?

Might just be something you're not doing correctly instead of the mould?

Larry Gibson

Alloy is straight clip on wheel weights. I don't have a thermometer but they were cast in a Lee BP at max temp. and water dropped.

[BossHoss]

how old is the mold? Is it a new Lyman or a vintage one?

[Philngruvy]

Apply your GCs and lube in the .311" die and try them. My CZ 527 shows a decided preference for boolits S&L in .313" vs .312" despite the boolits only being .312".

Thanks, I will try that.

[Philngruvy]

how old is the mold? Is it a new Lyman or a vintage one?

I don't know the age of the mold. I actually bought it used from someone on this forum, but I can't remember who that was. The block which has the sprue plate has the numbers 10-02 on it. Could that be the production date? The other block has 311041EV and then in the lower corner it has 2H on it.

[HangFireW8]

I bought a Lyman 311041 for my win 30-30 last year and I just got around to casting with it today. I cast a nice pile of boolits that took 3 hours out of my day. I learned a lesson. You should cast just a hand full and check them before you waste 3 hours!!! I checked them with my micrometer and they are .3088-.3093.[smilie=b:[smilie=b:
So any advice would be appreciated. Should I Beagle it or lap it or ... ???

I was there a little while ago. My new 311041 also dropped around .3085"->.3090. My FN bore is .310". Silly me was expecting a 311 041 to drop somewhere around .311!

I returned it to Lyman, who lapped it out to, they said, .311". In fact it now dropped at about .3095". I found that this was enough to make my .310 bore pretty accurate, especially when gas checked in a .310" sizer.

Have you slugged your bore yet? If it's around .3080 you'll probably be fine. A few decades ago mold makers got on a bore size kick. The reason was two-fold:
1. Phil Sharpe finally dispelled the ancient three-thousandths over rule.
2. The NRA research (yeah, they used to do research) found that boolits just at or barely above bore size were most accurate.

When the mold makers ignored when they all jumped on the .309" bandwagon, is that:
1. Their cherries get smaller pretty quickly, and
2. Not everyone with a .30 rifle has a .3080" bore.

HF

[geargnasher]

Like has been said, they might be fine as-is, but unfortunately I think you're now in the "burned by Lyman" club. Theories abound as to why so many of their mould designs have been coming out substantially undersized in the last few years, but no matter the reason, the fact remains that it's been happening a lot.

One other thing to check is the nose. If the nose is less than .300", you can try "Beagling" with foil tape or by dimpling the faces of the mould with a center punch. Sending back to Lyman is going to be a krapshoot, with about the same odds. If the nose casts ok, then you might talk to Erik Ohlen at hollowpointmold dot com and see about getting the driving bands enlarged to your specs with your chosen alloy. But again, load and shoot some first and see what your gun likes.

If you have leading and accuracy problems, I'll be glad to mail you a handfull of 311041s that ARE what they're supposed to be, from a custom mould. If your gun likes them, I'd recommend getting a different mould, this time from one of the more reputable makers.

Gear

[1bluehorse]

................. I'd recommend getting a different mould, this time from one of the more reputable makers.

Gear[/QUOTE]

Ouch !!:holysheep

[geargnasher]

It is what it is. I've wasted hundreds of dollars in my initial disbelief that such a well-established company was producing such a large percentage of junk moulds. I have quite a few good Lyman and ideal moulds that are a joy to cast with, but most of the good Lyman moulds have either been severely modified to work, or are from "back in the day" when they were consistently good and correct.

If I want a good "production" mould, I buy RCBS. All my RCBS moulds are of recent manufacture, and I understand that they changed to the CNC process a few years ago and had some speed bumps (along with a change of guard in the direction of the manufacturing), but that the ones made now are better than ever. I can't say how the older moulds were, but the ones I've purchased recently are excellent.

Gear

[Philngruvy]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I always heard that the Lyman 311041 was the cat's meow for a Winchester 30-30 so I acquired one even though I had two Lee molds, 150 and 170 grain. And yes, I too thought that it would drop a boolit somewhere close to .311. Well I am not going to give up on it. I will try some as cast and if they don't work, I will play with other options.
So, here are some questions for anyone who will take the time.
I am using straight clipon WW. Would a different alloy cast fatter?
I am water dropping. Would air cooling make a fatter boolit?
I checked the nose. They are .2994-.2997. Is that close enough to .300 or is beagling indicated?

[Larry Gibson]

Philngruvy

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I always heard that the Lyman 311041 was the cat's meow for a Winchester 30-30 It is, it set the standard by which other designs for the 30-30 are measured so I acquired one even though I had two Lee molds, 150 and 170 grain. And yes, I too thought that it would drop a boolit somewhere close to .311. Well I am not going to give up on it. I will try some as cast and if they don't work, I will play with other options. Good for you. I wouldn't give up on it either. I'm not saying Lyman is perfect and maybe a bad mould or two does slip through now and then, that happens to any manufacturer of the size of Lyman. A recent 311041 GB mould of Lee make droms the bullets at .315+ with noses at .303; great for my .31s but not so good in my .30s because I have to size down to .311 and size the nose at .300....not exactly what I wanted when I ordered the mould. The GB copy of the 311291 drops bullets even larger. Do I criticise Lee or the designer who came up with the specs? No I don't because I understand such things. I also recently sold off a GB 429421 that cast bullets way over size also. I've had lots of moulds from Lyman over the years and haven't had a bad one that was Lyman's fault yet, perhaps the couple Gear is sending will prove too small, we shall see. BTW, I've also have/had moulds from the "reputable" sources mentioned and found the varience to be the same as with Lyman, RCBS and SAECO moulds.

So, here are some questions for anyone who will take the time.
I am using straight clipon WW. Would a different alloy cast fatter?

Yes it will. I am going to suggest you just add 2% tin to your WW alloy. I'm also going to suggest the alloy be at 725 degrees when you cast and you open the spout up so the alloy stream gets into the cavity very quickly and that you leave a large sprue, even if it over runs off the sprue plate.

I am water dropping. Would air cooling make a fatter boolit?

Many times yes. I do not WQ bullets unless absolutely necessary. In the case of the 30-30 and WW + 2% tin AC'd will do just fine. The BHN will be in the 14 -17 range if your WWs are standard, more than likely the BHN will be 16 - 17 which is very comparable to Lyman's #2 alloy. Let the newly cast bullets cool completely before measuring and then let the age a couple weeks before sizing, GC/lubing, loading and shooting.

I checked the nose. They are .2994-.2997. Is that close enough to .300 or is beagling indicated?

If the bullets come out .002+ on the driving bands with the suggestions I've made then the nose will also be larger by pretty much the same. It should prove just fine.

Larry Gibson

[T-Bird]

I didn't know anyone else had this prob with a lyman mold. I have had a 158 gr 38/357 mold that casts barely .358 with ww+2% and my pistol likes .359 I just shelved it. T-Bird

[MikeS]

Yes, another alloy will cast fatter. You could try the alloy that mould is spec'ed for, Lyman #2 alloy. It's 90% lead(Pb), 5% tin(Sn), and 5% antimony (Sb). It will cast larger boolits, but I don't know if they will get up to .311 or not. You could also try linotype, it will cast the largest boolit, but it also makes a very hard and brittle boolit that wouldn't be a good alloy to use for hunting boolits.

I don't believe water dropping will change the boolit's diameter.

If the nose is casting at .2997 that's pretty close to .300, and beagling it will make it larger, between .301 to .303 depending on how thick your beagling tape is.

Personally I would try beagling it first, as if that doesn't work it's totally reversable. Next I would try casting with Lyman #2 alloy. I use Lyman #2 for most of my casting, and I find that it works great. It's a more expensive alloy to make than just using wheel weights, but for me it's worth it.

[runfiverun]

yes.
no.
and...
this isn't really a bore rider it has a lot of bearing length.
it were i woulda said yer *******.

i really don't need to repeat what gear said..... again.

this has to be at least the 5th time this week we have had this discussion....
.
.

[Walstr]

Philngruvy: Sounds like too hot, mold is expanding, boolits are larger than expected? I try to cast at a temp & tempo, that produces a slight satin finish rather than looking chrome plated. Adding tin might reduce size a bit.

[Guesser]

I never got what I wanted from that mold in Marlins or Winchesters but it sure "shines" in my 1936 Savage 99 in 30-30, does really well in my neighbors Savage 219B single shot also. .311 all the way!!

[Mica_Hiebert]

Might be a good time to try powder coating. Might add a little girth to them.

[Beagle333]

With this thread being over 4-1/2 years old, I'd bet he has solved his problem by now. :coffeecom

[dtknowles]

What alloy?

What casting temp?

BP or ladle?

Might just be something you're not doing correctly instead of the mould?

Larry Gibson

Jesus man for a second I thought Larry was back.

Tim

[45-70 Chevroner]

What alloy?

What casting temp?

BP or ladle?

Might just be something you're not doing correctly instead of the mould?

Larry Gibson
Hi Larry, glad to see you back. (Damn, wish I had looked at the date also) sorry about that Larry, hope you get back soon, and hope you read this.

[Strtspdlx]

I would try a cooler alloy temp. Max heat to me means max mold expansion. Which relates to a smaller bore. I've had some molds castes much as .0025 larger by dropping the temp to where I have to cast extremely quick to not lose heat in the mold.

[nitro-express]

Old thread, but I'll add my .02 $.

Without a thermometer, I'm not sure I could cast decently. I've had a few BP Lee pots, MAX would be in the 800 > 900 °F, or more. Between 2 and 3 is app 750 on both of mine.

If the bullets are coming out a bit frosty, they will be small, with alloy in the 92-6-2 range. Other alloys act a bit differently. I've found, as I got a bit more experienced, I could lower the temperature a bit and get nice bullets.

A dull bullet is indicative of tin in the alloy, it solidifies the last. With an alloy where Sb > Sn, this is less, and bullets will be more chrome looking. If the mold temp gets too high, the bullets will be frosty, and even a small patch of frosty means undersize. Alloy temp may be OK, just slow down and let the mold cool.

I went through a bunch of Alloy before I had any bullets I could use. BUT, sometimes these bad bullets still shot OK, most times not. Rifles seem a bit more forgiving than wheel guns.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Powder coat them and they will increase in size .002-.004 in size, then you can size them to .310 and they will right where they need to be.

Also use the gas check, but you won't use any Lube as the PC is a polymer based paint and is quite slippery on it's own.

Randy

[curioushooter]

I suspect that you will find they work fine, perhaps un-sized, if you are using a nominally .308 groove diameter barrel. Were you intending this for a Russian gun?

I have found that with most modern firearms (like made in the last 20 years) you want cast bullets to be the intended groove diameter. My new Smith's in 357 all shoot best with bullets sized .357. My old N-Frame shot best with .358 or unsized (which could be .359+). My Mossberg 464 shoots best with .309 or .308 sized bullets, whereas my old Krags (except those re-barreled) all shoot best with bullets up to .310 or .311 sized.

[MSD MIke]

Mine was the same way. I recently started powder coating and that gets me the extra diameter I need. Not that you should have to start PCing in order to use your mold.

[porthos]

if i were to guess from my past experience: sometime in the early 1990s or sooner is when lyman molds started to become "the luck of the draw"

[HangFireW8]

Hmm I remember this thread.

if i were to guess from my past experience: sometime in the early 1990s or sooner is when lyman molds started to become "the luck of the draw"
Lyman makes 311041's to .309, with Linotype or 1:10 and pressure casting with a ladle, even though the model starts with "311". It's just the way they do things now.

Fortunately, I find .309" to be good enough for .308" bores, but then again I'm not a member of the Cult of the Ball Seat. If your boolits are hard enough and don't have to jump to the rifling, they may do fine.

[pastorcurtis]

I picked up a lee special order 311041 clone on eBay from shooting sports. Drops 311-312.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Using my ancient Lyman mold and using my 50/50 alloy + Tin, I BP at 700 +/- degrees, air cool and .311 size. My Savage 219 likes this boolet and IMR -3031 powder.Robert