IMR 4227 and .454 Casull 360 grain Cast Bullets

[Southern Shooter]

Hodgdon's reloading guide references IMR 4227 as one of the powders to use. But, I don't hear too many folks using it for heavy cast bullets. Espeically, for the .454 Casull.

Is IMR 4227 not a good powder to use in heavy cast .454 Casull bullets?

Thanks

[leftiye]

The .454 thrives on even slower powders. Also 4227 is bulky, and does not shine in the .44 mag until heavy boolits (about 270 grs and up) are used. Maybe try some 300 MP or 1680.

[stubshaft]

24.0 of 296/H110 gets me about 1425fps with a 360 in the 454.

[44man]

4227 might be fine. I will never use it again in the .44 but it is good with other calibers. Go ahead and test it.

[Southern Shooter]

44man,

Why will you not use IMR 4227 in .44 Magnum? Do you feel the same with cast and jacketed bullets?

What makes it a better idea in other calibers like this one to use?

Thanks

[leftiye]

Maybe cuz the 4227 can't keep up with H110, 296, LIL Gun, and 300MP for speed and possibly accuracy with most boolit weights, though it shoots very accurately in a lot of other applications. With the Lyman Devastator, it does compete well though in .44.

[Southern Shooter]

Hey Folks,
I took my Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan .454 Casull, 2.58" barrel, to the range, yesterday. One of the strings I fired included 23 grains of IMR 4227. It was certainly not a fast shooter but it was nice looking in terms of velocity range.

IMR 4227
23 grains
Accurate Mold 45-360-C @ 362 grains
42052

FPS:
927
917
908
910
911
------
Ave- 914
SD- 7.7

[RobS]

Sounds like what I was shooting with my 340 grainer. I used 23.0 and 23.8 grains out of my 7.5" SRH 454 Casull. I don't have the velocities right now (in between moves) but the load wasn't a knuckle buster or anything; fairly even tempered load on this end.

I also used 18.6 to 19.2 grains of 2400 for about the same thing.

and then 21.5 grains of AA#9 but this one had more velocity if memory serves me right.

I also worked 25.5-26.0 grains of H110 for some good time fun.



4227 and 2400 were easier to find consistent velocity readings among the wider range of powder charges (lower to higher end). AA#9 and H110 are not forgiving regards to loading down that's for sure.

[Southern Shooter]

RobS---4227 and 2400 were easier to find consistent velocity readings among the wider range of powder charges (lower to higher end).

I know that this may sound dumb, but does consistent velocity and smaller standard deviation go hand-in-hand?

And, if that is the case, does that help with getting smaller groups on the target?

To obtain that, would it be worth giving up 50 FPS in velocity?

Thanks

[pmer]

I know that this may sound dumb, but does consistent velocity and smaller standard deviation go hand-in-hand?

And, if that is the case, does that help with getting smaller groups on the target?

To obtain that, would it be worth giving up 50 FPS in velocity?

Thanks

That's a big 10-4 low standard deviation means consistant velocities. Long range target shooters live or die by it. It shows itself by vertical stringing on the target - slower moving bullets hitting lower. :Fire:

[44man]

44man,

Why will you not use IMR 4227 in .44 Magnum? Do you feel the same with cast and jacketed bullets?

What makes it a better idea in other calibers like this one to use?

Thanks
I had gross heat burn rates and velocity changes in the .44.
The powder worked great in other calibers.
It was very accurate in the .44 but the gun had to be kept cold. Even 5 shots had a great change. Once the gun was hot from the sun, even the second shot was much faster.
I have no idea why in the .44 because the powder was my choice in others like the .357 max.

[44man]

That's a big 10-4 low standard deviation means consistant velocities. Long range target shooters live or die by it. It shows itself by vertical stringing on the target - slower moving bullets hitting lower. :Fire:
That is a little off. Faster boolits hit lower.
SD's mean very little for final accuracy.

[pmer]

"SD's mean very little for final accuracy. "
44man, are you meaning for short range hunting and plinking?

"That is a little off. Faster boolits hit lower."
This means that the trajectory tables in my manuals are backwards?

I know the Southern Shooter is talking about a short range bear stopper and I would have less concern for great SD in that case too. But when you get past 600yds or even 300yds big spreads in velocity (or high SD) will hurt you. I guess that was my point by saying "long range target shooters".

I have a load for my 338-06 deer rifle that always shoots way under 8 SD. It's a good charge of 4064 for a 200 grain hunting load. It's sub MOA out to 1000yds. If I was fighting velocity spreads it would never shoot 3.5'' at 600. I don't live too far from a club that has a HP range.

So to me, a bullet flying through the air wether it's from a rifle or revolver, long or short range; I have to think you'll see changes in groups from loads with good SDs and bad SDs.

[leftiye]

Heavy boolits take longer to exit the barrel and recoil more. This causes the barrel to be more elevated by the time the boolit leaves the muzzle, and they hit higher. This reverses what is usually experienced in a rifle. This could be a real problem for short range accuracy as often the front sight is too short (and the rear sight is all the way down) to sight these loads in.

SD being small is nice, but small SDs don't guarantee accuracy in and of themselves.

44man is a very good long range (and all around) pistolero.

[pmer]

Can you repeat this using same weight boolits at high and low velocities in different guns and of different calibers?

[The Ranger]

Can you repeat this using same weight boolits at high and low velocities in different guns and of different calibers?

yes you can.

[runfiverun]

yeah you can in revolvers easily.
heavy high, light low, sometmes left and right too.
rifles are a bit different thier bbls run on a different set of rules then a stubby revolver does.
this is why you can find somewhat thin, shorter rifle bbls that are more consistent accuracy wise over a broad range of loads.

[Southern Shooter]

Is there a difference between them? Do I need to make sure I am stricktly reading IMR data when loading IMR 4227 and, never use the H4227 data??

Thanks

[The Ranger]

Is there a difference between them? Do I need to make sure I am stricktly reading IMR data when loading IMR 4227 and, never use the H4227 data??

Thanks

correct. don't mix load data on these two!

they are not the same and you could get into trouble.

[leftiye]

If I've got this right - Nowadays they are supposed to be the same powder. Hodgdon is selling IMR 4227 as they've run out of (or decided not to manufacture) H4227. You will still need to use data for the right powder though. I think I've still got a can of H4227 maybe.

[44man]

If I've got this right - Nowadays they are supposed to be the same powder. Hodgdon is selling IMR 4227 as they've run out of (or decided not to manufacture) H4227. You will still need to use data for the right powder though. I think I've still got a can of H4227 maybe.
I had the same problem with both in the .44.
I seem to have lost a post somewhere here where I explained the trouble so I will do it again.
Shooting IHMSA and getting the gun hot with just 5 shots had me hitting the center with the first shot, lower with the next, off the bottom with the next until the last ram at 200 meters had me 16 clicks over normal and a bullet in the dirt 50 meters short. Primers got flatter and flatter as I went.
Reducing the load had zero affect, same problems.
It was so bad I looked down the side of my barrel to see if it bent.
I went to 296 and dominated revolver production, winning almost every shoot.
Cussing on the range was bad from those using 4227's. Can I say they hated to see me and my friends show up? They really hated it when my friends and I joked and laughed while shooting.
I took state .22 with a Ruger Mark II, brand new, no sight settings. 57 out of 60 and all shoot off targets at 100 yards.
I went to Youngstown with a new Ruger .357 max just to sight it in. I shot a 39 out of 40 with 4227, no problems at all.
But neither of those powders go in my .44's, not ever again.
I shot with the best, Boyd Carpenter, Blacky Sleeva, Josie Engle that held two world records off hand at Gordonsville VA. I shot neck and neck with them, beating them and also losing to them. We had fun, the top shots were great people and my friends.
But those that lost all the time with revolvers would not even talk to us. They used the wrong powder!
I shot many guns, the XP100, MOA and Wichita but my passion was the revolver. I made it shoot and every single miss was my fault. Plain old SBH!
I was shooting at this cardboard chicken at 200 meters with my Wichita one day, picked up the .44 and shot twice. See the two holes in the foot?