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View Full Version : Electricians, Step Inside, Please. Polarity Question.



Beau Cassidy
02-27-2012, 05:23 PM
I am in the process of buying a new place to cast boolits. During the house inspection last week the inspector who seemed to really know his stuff, made mention of reverse polarity on 6 or 7 electrical outlets in the master bedroom. I pulled all of the covers and looked at the wires. They all look to be hooked up correctly with the black wires going in the black side of the outlet and the white wires going into the white side of the socket. All had grounds, too. I am at a loss here. Could the inspector have done something wrong?

Beau

elk hunter
02-27-2012, 05:42 PM
I'm certainly not an electrician, but do have some knowledge and experience with electricity. Could be that the hot and neutral wires have been swapped at another inline outlet or fixture further up the line towards the breaker for the circuit. I would backtrack the circuit and look for an owner installed light or outlet.

C.F.Plinker
02-27-2012, 05:43 PM
Go to the hardware store or home center and get a polarity checker. It looks like a 3 wire plug but it has 3 little neon bulbs in it. When you plug it into the outlet, two of the three should light up. Referrring to a decal on it, you can tell if the outlet is wired correctly, and, if not, what the problem is.

The black wires should come in to and leave the side of the outlet with the shorter slot for the blade of the plug that goes into it. The white wire should come into and leave the side with the taller slot.

Since one of the outlets is wired correctly, I would look closely at that one and make sure that the black and white are connected correctly and that there are no connections inside the outlet box where a black wire is connected to a white wire or where both colors come into the same side of the outlet. If you are going to loosen the outlet and pull it partway or completely out of the box go out to the panel and open the breaker feeding these outlets. While you are looking inside the box make sure that the green wires are not connected to any other color of wire.

IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE DOING THIS YOURSELF, GET AN ELECTRICIAN TO DO IT FOR YOU. Electricity does not forgive any type of mistake.

GRUMPA
02-27-2012, 05:54 PM
I've never heard of that before....???? just for grins just like already said one of those polarity checkers will make short work of it. And Plinker has that explanation well said.

MT Gianni
02-27-2012, 06:08 PM
If you are the buyer tell the homeowner to fix it as a condition of sale. Option two is for the homeowner to get two estimates and knock the lower off the price of the home if you wish to do it yourself. If the estimates differ by more that $50 find out why. IMO you should not offer to solve sellers problems or they will assume that you can solve all problems and there is no need to inform you of anything else. If you are related then you might cut them some slack.

BeeMan
02-27-2012, 06:22 PM
Don't count on wire color. For less than $10 you should be able to pick up a simple diagnostic tool at your local home improvement store. It has a grounded plug and several indicators to show whether the outlet being tested is wired correctly or has a specific wiring fault.

I'm not an electrician, but a couple of the houses we bought had 'special' wiring. The tester I have is an IDEAL Analog Multimeter GFCI Receptacle Tester.

BeeMan

ETA: Gianni makes a good point about not solving the seller's problem.

Jammer Six
02-27-2012, 06:29 PM
The qualifications to become a gunsmith and the qualifications to become a home inspector are identical.

Catshooter
02-27-2012, 07:05 PM
Well, I am an electrician (34 years) and for once you've gotten good advice.

The white wires connect to the sliver colored screw, black to the brass colored.

The problem probably won't be with the ones that test bad, rather it more likely lies with the one that feeds those. Open it up and you'll find the two wires that are swapped. That will likely fix all the rest.


Cat

Lee
02-27-2012, 07:50 PM
Could be switched outlets? Lazy people don't always re-color the wires when making up switched outlets.

Only "trick" I've ever heard of is turning an old 2 wire outlet into a 3 wire outlet. Wire the ground wire together with the white wire. That will fool the common electrical tester, but that is not an accepted method. I don't know if that kind of bubba wiring would support a GFI receptacle. Never tried it, don't intend to.
Other than that, it still sounds like a case of reversed/switched wires in the receptacle boxes. Should be an easy fix in any case.:|

runfiverun
02-27-2012, 07:53 PM
like cat said because the plugs are correct don't mean the wires are hooked up at the box correctly.
or havent been swapped in a junction box.

jsizemore
02-27-2012, 07:58 PM
Just like Cat said. Since they are are all PROBABLY on the same circuit and are in a line one after the other, your MOST LIKELY candidates are the ones that read incorrect at either end of the line OR the ones just proceding those that read correctly. If not you'll have to check each individual outlet. Since it's a master bedroom some of half the outlets may be controlled by a switch for a lamp.

odfairfaxsub
02-27-2012, 08:06 PM
I don't know if that kind of bubba wiring would support a GFI receptacle. Never tried it, don't intend to.

not likely, (ibew lu 50) you can actually trip the gfi as a way to trip the circuit behind you with the gfi outlet itself by touching the neutral and ground together.

Dale in Louisiana
02-27-2012, 08:29 PM
Please be careful.

Unusual for an on-line forum, this is all pretty good advice. As a long-time electrical guy (up to 500,000 volts) I can tell you GET the 'polarity tester'. Should be available at Lowes, Home Depot, Radio Shack or most good lumber yards. Using it is self explanatory.

It is not unusual on homes that have been subject to owner 'repairs' and 'modifications' to find things crossed up, because many people don't understand the need for correct orientation of hot, neutral and ground.

that said, if you find a receptacle that shows incorrect polarity with the tester, make sure you turn off the breaker that feeds that receptacle before you go messing with it with the cover off. 120 volts kills MORE people every year, because "That's just one-twenty! ANYBODY can work on it!"

Adn despite all the wonderful advice here (including mine) if you're the least, tiniest bit unsure about what you're doing, get competent help.

dale in Louisiana

Bret4207
02-27-2012, 08:51 PM
Well, I am an electrician (34 years) and for once you've gotten good advice.

The white wires connect to the sliver colored screw, black to the brass colored.

The problem probably won't be with the ones that test bad, rather it more likely lies with the one that feeds those. Open it up and you'll find the two wires that are swapped. That will likely fix all the rest.


Cat

Holy krap! You mean I guessed and did it right???!!!! The only way I could remember stuff was that black and brass were darker than silver and white and black and electricity always reminded me of The Black Death so that made sense since the black was the hot wire that would pass gazillions of volts through my body seeking ground. Of course that's just the opposite of auto electricals where black was always ground and white or red was hot.

Got one of those polarity checkers some years back and fixed a lot of mistakes in our house. They (Ideal) also make one for you phone jacks that's real handy when the phone goes dead.

odfairfaxsub
02-27-2012, 09:00 PM
that tester is generally what home inspectors will base 99 percent of their decisions on a final insp.

Blacksmith
02-27-2012, 09:05 PM
One more caution. Just because the outlets are in the same room and all in a line DO NOT ASSUME they are all on the same breaker. Test each outlet top and bottom to make sure all the necessary breakers are off before working on them. Don't ask how I know.

Jammer Six
02-27-2012, 09:18 PM
I was a general contractor for twenty years. (More or less, depending on how you count.) I inspected homes for about four of those years, but I got tired of being lumped with used car salesmen. And I saw their point-- I never met an inspector with a very high skill level.

Electricity is a powerful magic force controlled by wizards called "electricians". Do not anger the lords of electricity, lest blue flame leap across the basement and smite thee.

There's something about multiplying, and a hose, and gallons of water and the water pressure and the number of lightbulbs in a circle.

I have my electrical sub on speed dial. When he wants a giggle, he tries to explain it all to me. Again.

We have now reached the limits of my knowledge about electricity.

geargnasher
02-27-2012, 09:24 PM
Holy krap! You mean I guessed and did it right???!!!! The only way I could remember stuff was that black and brass were darker than silver and white and black and electricity always reminded me of The Black Death so that made sense since the black was the hot wire that would pass gazillions of volts through my body seeking ground. Of course that's just the opposite of auto electricals where black was always ground and white or red was hot.

Got one of those polarity checkers some years back and fixed a lot of mistakes in our house. They (Ideal) also make one for you phone jacks that's real handy when the phone goes dead.

Wanna REALLY get screwed up? Work on RVs all day, where the standard 12VDC coding is black wire=ground, white wire = positive, then come home and do house wiring where white is neutral and black is HOT! Grrrrrrrr.

I'm guessing sombody replaced an outlet at some point and got the wires swapped, so the remainder of the string has reversed polarity.

Gear

JeffinNZ
02-27-2012, 09:43 PM
What I want to know is to be an electrician do you have to be bi-polar.......?

odfairfaxsub
02-27-2012, 09:50 PM
lol silly jeffinnz. no but at least half on the job have to be cocky sexist individuals and atleast 3/4 must use some kind of tobacco product.

Beau Cassidy
02-27-2012, 09:57 PM
The breaker box is in the basement and I have pretty much cut off all breakers except the heating and cooling in the house. I don't like being shocked. I will get the checker and have to track everything down. I haven't looked at the box yet. I would imagine I will just pony up and get an electrician out there.

For a substantial reduction in price I forgave the seller of any repairs. Most are minor and I can do them myself. The electrical stuff? Well I was just looking to see if I could find an obvious problem. Besides, I would rather see the repairs are done to my satisfaction instead of a half-*** patch job. Nothing gripes me more than having to redo somebody's hack-job. So far I have been over the house with a fine tooth comb and have found only one thing not picked up on the inspection. Again- it is more of an inconvenience to fix but certainly doable.

It does have an empty room in the basement that will be a world-class reloading room when I get done with it. Pics at 11!

Lee
02-27-2012, 09:59 PM
Yah go old electronics where "black" was/is ground. That'll light ya up! Then go European with the Itralians arguing with the Gremainians, arguing with the Europopeans. By the time they're done with color coding, you're almost color blind. I work with them all, they're all a pain.
And I agree .. "It's only 480...it won't hurt you, just tingle!!!" [smilie=w:
ME? Just an old 4300VAC guy. Had my share of those arc blasts in the day. I'll leave it to others to guess where the old saying "not with a 10' pole" came from...:shock:

There's old electricians, and there's bold electricians, but there's NO old, bold electricians!!!

Like the guy on the beer commercial says..."Stay safe my friend!!"

[smilie=s:

crappie-hunter
02-27-2012, 10:07 PM
Well, I am an electrician (34 years) and for once you've gotten good advice.

The white wires connect to the sliver colored screw, black to the brass colored.

The problem probably won't be with the ones that test bad, rather it more likely lies with the one that feeds those. Open it up and you'll find the two wires that are swapped. That will likely fix all the rest.


Cat

Worked as an electrician for 30 yrs the above is good advice and don't depend on wire color , there are people that are color blind.

Silver Eagle
02-27-2012, 10:30 PM
Double check the outlets after you turn off the breaker as well...
I was swapping out a broken outlet and with the breaker off and got zapped! :evil:
Checked again with a multi-meter and found out it was the neutral current that got me. Box had 2 neutrals from 2 different branches combining in it. :veryconfu:
In the process of swapping the box, I separated them. While putting them on the new outlet I touched them while separated. Hence, the shock!
It makes a big difference when you are working on a supposedly known dead circuit as opposed to a known live one! ;)
The place is a rented condo and I am not going to go through and fix the wiring.

Silver Eagle

swheeler
02-27-2012, 10:44 PM
BC; I would say you have been given good advice in the above posts, pull the recepticles on that circuit, black/brass(line)and white/silver(neutral) you will find one recepticle with wires swapped. I do not agree with the terminology "polarity" however, AC current swaps polarity approx 60 times per second while DC has a constant positive and negative.

jblee10
02-27-2012, 10:47 PM
Like Silver Eagle says. Look out for shared neutrals. It seems to be prevailant in older commercial buildings, but can happen anywhere remodels have happened. Do your voltage test every way imaginable. Hot to neutral, hot to ground, neutral to ground, etc. 110 will kill you as dead as any. I've seen a guys hand after 480 three phase has passed through it. He is lucky it only went through one hand instead of in one hand, through the chest and out the other hand. I'm sure he wouldn't be with us now.

Jammer Six
02-27-2012, 10:58 PM
What about those heavily hung individuals on the Discovery Channel, who go up in helicopters and work on the high voltage lines without turning them off? Are they old or bold? Doesn't seem like a young man's game to me...

Springfield
02-27-2012, 11:11 PM
OK, I read the whole post and nobody said, what happens when the wires are crossed? The lights won't work, clocks will run backwards, electrical heaters will turn ito air conditioners? Or is it a safety problem?

oneokie
02-27-2012, 11:33 PM
OK, I read the whole post and nobody said, what happens when the wires are crossed? The lights won't work, clocks will run backwards, electrical heaters will turn ito air conditioners? Or is it a safety problem?

Safety problem.

Dale in Louisiana
02-27-2012, 11:45 PM
Wanna REALLY get screwed up? Work on RVs all day, where the standard 12VDC coding is black wire=ground, white wire = positive, then come home and do house wiring where white is neutral and black is HOT! Grrrrrrrr.

I'm guessing sombody replaced an outlet at some point and got the wires swapped, so the remainder of the string has reversed polarity.

Gear


The new standard for MARINE DC systems calls for RED=positive and YELLOW=negative, for EXACTLY that sort of confusion. On boats with both AC and DC systems, it can be fatal.

dale in Louisiana

OBIII
02-27-2012, 11:49 PM
Follow the inspectors findings. Turn off all breakers except for the one you having issues with. This will eliminate duplicate feeds. If the "first" outlet is good, but the second is showing a reversal, check the wiring on the first. If the wiring is correct, look for a junction box (somewhere behind the drywall, sorry). If there is a junction box, therein will lie your problem.

Longwood
02-27-2012, 11:59 PM
Home, auto, marine they all have one thing in common.
If you let the smoke out of a wire or component, it is impossible to get it back in.[smilie=b:

DCM
02-28-2012, 12:10 AM
What I want to know is to be an electrician do you have to be bi-polar.......?

Not a requirement, but many are!

GL49
02-28-2012, 12:21 AM
All good advice, reread post #31 carefully. Only thing I would add, when you get to where you want to open something up and check it for crossed wires, turn it off first. I work with a small flashlight in my mouth a lot. Better than getting bit. Test. Test. Test. And touch no bare copper, the white wire can bite as hard as the black one. If you're not 100% sure, pay for an expert. Better than doing the "60 cycle jig".

Lloyd Smale
02-28-2012, 08:00 AM
I was an electrical lineman all my life. those helicopter lineman are completely safe. Its no differnt then a bird sitting on a power line. As long as theres no ground to complete a circuit theres no way for electicity to flow. There job is actually some of the easiest linework there is. The real danger in it lies in the hands of the pilot and his ability to hover close to the wires. the lineman himself really doent even have a way to get electrocuted other then with the static charge if hes so stupid as to ignore it when he puts the chopper in the same potential as the wire. If you see a lineman on a pole in your neighborhood wearing rubber gloves and sleaves he is doing the most dangerous work a lineman does. Working the higher voltage transmition lines is actually safer because you dont come in direct contact with it.
What about those heavily hung individuals on the Discovery Channel, who go up in helicopters and work on the high voltage lines without turning them off? Are they old or bold? Doesn't seem like a young man's game to me...

2muchstuf
02-28-2012, 08:22 AM
Before I"d lose a lot of sleep over this and start tearing walls apart to look for junction boxes and such ,I would just switch the wires on those 6 or 7 receps.
I know it's not exactly kosher but it will get the job done for you and be safe too.
You will still have all of your hair left when you're done.
What ever you decide just be safe.
Getting zapped isn't any fun.

FWIW
2

2muchstuf
02-28-2012, 08:39 AM
Also agree with swheeler,
With AC polarity only exists in the book.
And only matters to the "book people".

Maybe somewhere it makes a difference but with household 120V AC it just doesn't.
Pleas don't flame us too hard for this.

It's good to have things uniform, but I'm sure the real root of this was that someone made a lot of money with it.
2

MT Gianni
02-28-2012, 10:15 AM
OK, I read the whole post and nobody said, what happens when the wires are crossed? The lights won't work, clocks will run backwards, electrical heaters will turn ito air conditioners? Or is it a safety problem?

Electrical appliances work with magic smoke. If the wires are crossed you let all of the smoke out and it no longer works as it should. If there was a lot of smoke inside it can cause fires and human smoke. Neither are wanted or warranted.

44man
02-28-2012, 10:44 AM
lol silly jeffinnz. no but at least half on the job have to be cocky sexist individuals and atleast 3/4 must use some kind of tobacco product.
I guess you never seen the forks plugged in an outlet with an extension cord hooked to the forks? :bigsmyl2:
Need lots of baccy juice to put out the fires! [smilie=l:
One other caution never mentioned is to make sure all connections are tight, tighten the screws. Never use the stupid wire plug ins in the back of outlets, you can burn the house down. Use the screws.
Any loose connection will get hot enough to melt off wire insulation up in the walls.
Wire nuts in junction boxes MUST be tight, VERY tight, don't depend on electrical tape around them.
An electrician wired a neighbors house and never used a junction box. There are as many as 12 wires in switch boxes and outlet boxes so the outlets and switches hang out in space, no way to put them in the boxes. She wanted me to put a fan with a light in the ceiling once but there was such a huge amount of wires in the box, it took me hours to track enough down and there were still a bunch I could not pin down. Never again will I go in that house. [smilie=s:
House wiring is super easy but the funniest thing I seen was my brother in law trying to fix his travel trailer. He had all the interior panels off and lights hanging outside the trailer. He called me and I stood there looking at him with a grin. I said he lost the ground to the truck, took a piece of wire and hooked it to the bumper and trailer and all the lights worked. It took him a week to put everything back.
Yeah, I shoot boolits too! :bigsmyl2:

Beau Cassidy
02-28-2012, 11:35 AM
Before I"d lose a lot of sleep over this and start tearing walls apart to look for junction boxes and such ,I would just switch the wires on those 6 or 7 receps.
I know it's not exactly kosher but it will get the job done for you and be safe too.
You will still have all of your hair left when you're done.
What ever you decide just be safe.
Getting zapped isn't any fun.

FWIW
2

Well I thought about doing that but I feel better finding the exact problem and I also want to double check the polarity myself.

The10mmKid
02-28-2012, 12:30 PM
The recommended practice for achieving a 3-prong is to replace the 2-prong with a GFCI receptacle. Easy fix and super safe.
Do not jumper the green (ground) terminal to the neutral. It's never the solution as was previously mentioned.

Da' Kid

felix
02-28-2012, 12:38 PM
NEVER connect ground to neutral. They are NOT the same. Neutral BELONGS to the circuit, and ground does NOT. ... felix

Ground is the neutral for extraneous inputs, such as static, lightning, etc., completing its own circuit external to ours. ... felix

Whiterabbit
02-28-2012, 12:40 PM
Also agree with swheeler,
With AC polarity only exists in the book.
And only matters to the "book people".

Maybe somewhere it makes a difference but with household 120V AC it just doesn't.
Pleas don't flame us too hard for this.


I will flame indeed. Do you really believe this?

Old cast iron equipment (like power drills and fans, for example) run neutral to the case. Any failure of a hot line, rather than zapping you, would short out to the case and trip the breaker.

Saving you.

Reverse polarity? the drill would work fine like you suggest, and you'd never know. As long as you were wearing gloves. bare skinned, you'd be singing a different tune!

Whiterabbit
02-28-2012, 12:41 PM
NEVER connect ground to neutral. They are NOT the same. Neutral BELONGS to the circuit, and ground does NOT. ... felix

And this one scares me. When I read way back up that some people cheat and wire ground to neutral on the plugs..... That's just scary!

Sonnypie
02-28-2012, 12:47 PM
What I want to know is to be an electrician do you have to be bi-polar.......?

No... but it helps.
I'm still musing about your toilets spinning backwards down there on the bottom of the world, Jeff. :veryconfu :lol:

Cat nailed exactly what I would have pointed out.
Also, you can go to most home improvement stores and take a packaged device (Switch, receptacle) and often the bottom (back) of the box has example diagrams on it.

But ultimately, fixing things found in the home inspection are the responsibility of the seller to fix.
Not the buyer. :popcorn:
And that is why a home inspector is hired. So you don't buy a pig-in-a-poke. :D

Lloyd Smale
02-28-2012, 02:45 PM
yes and no. If you go beyond your house your transformer is grounded and the neutral bushing on the transformer secondary is usually grounded to the case and the case is grounded to the pole ground. Your primary voltage neutral is also grounded at least every 5 poles so in fact no matter what you do your ground and neutral are tied together in the ground unless your utility uses ground isolators and I dont know of a single one that does anymore. The only places i can think of are where there was trouble with livestock. We used them when we had the navy ELF underground submarine antena in the area but after they decided it was not needed anymore and decomissioned it we took all the isolators back out. they helped with static feedback into homes but werent near as good when it came to lightning protection. .
NEVER connect ground to neutral. They are NOT the same. Neutral BELONGS to the circuit, and ground does NOT. ... felix

Ground is the neutral for extraneous inputs, such as static, lightning, etc., completing its own circuit external to ours. ... felix

C.F.Plinker
02-28-2012, 03:04 PM
The neutral bus is grounded at the service. For most houses that is the panel next to the meter. From there on the neutral and ground are separate. If you put in a sub-panel (say to power all of the tools in your garage) you run a feeder from the service panel to the sub-panel. This feeder would have the phase wires, neutral, and ground. The neutral would connect to the neutral bus in the sub-panel and the ground would connect to the ground bus in the sub=panel. The neutral bus and the ground bus would NOT be tied together in the sub-panel.

C.F.Plinker
02-28-2012, 03:11 PM
Well I thought about doing that but I feel better finding the exact problem and I also want to double check the polarity myself.

Please let us know what you find. We have been assuming that "polarity reversed" means that the phase wire and the neutral wire have been reversed. The tester will tell you this as well as if any of the three wires are open or the phase and ground are reversed.

Dale in Louisiana
02-28-2012, 05:07 PM
What about those heavily hung individuals on the Discovery Channel, who go up in helicopters and work on the high voltage lines without turning them off? Are they old or bold? Doesn't seem like a young man's game to me...

Not that **I** would do it myself, but those guys are part of the energized circuit. there is no path from the conductor to ground. That's the idea of doing it from a helicopter. The metallic suit is to move the corona discharge from body parts, where it'd hurt, to the suit. Above about 10 kV, the electricity will actually start streaming from energized parts into the atmosphere, because that is ONE path to ground. It's a small amount, unless it's coming off YOUR ears.

I have done the same thing at 13,800 volts from an insulated bucket on a utility bucket truck. Once you get past the 'there's one God-awful amount of electricity in my hand' it's just mechanical work.

In a properly assembled and operating electrical system there are only KNOWN voltage sources and paths to ground. On a jury-rigged, bubba'd, hacked up, thrown together system, you're on your own, so be VERY careful.

I used to tell my technicians that it wasn't the large refinery power systems that would get them, it was driving back into the woods to some peckerwood sawmill, where you couldn't depend on ANYONE doing things right.

I'm still here, and I never lost a technician, so something must be working in my favor.

dale in Louisiana

375RUGER
02-28-2012, 05:34 PM
Why are neutral and ground common inside the distribution/breaker box?

oneokie
02-28-2012, 05:42 PM
Why are neutral and ground common inside the distribution/breaker box?

Wondering the same thing myself. Would like to hear the explanation for same.

felix
02-28-2012, 06:11 PM
Look outside on YOUR utility transformer. If it is a four wire system going into it, then there should be a four wire system going into your house. If not, the power system is delivering power through a three wire system, such that the neutral wire is at zero voltage to ground, i.e, common. More and more time there exists more and more sensitive electronics within your household. Sooner or later you will get unexplained computer, TV, etc. failures seemingly appearing from nowhere. Any time neutral is set to ground there exists a circuit that can obtain all kinds of electrical noise, such as radio waves included. These noises, over time, will destroy home equipment power supplies within your hi-tech electronic gadgets. ... felix

In addition, if you have a three phase motor in your house that has its speed controlled with frequency generation via a computer/controller/whatever, that frequency will be reflected back throughout your house with a three wire system. That is BIG TIME noise and will destroy electronics in no time unless high powered filters are placed after the whatever and before the motor being controlled. ... felix

Jammer Six
02-28-2012, 07:20 PM
Dad used to check if current was on by grabbing the hot lead and then touching the (back in that day, metal) box. He showed me how to do it when I was about ten, and I watched him do it, then I tried it, and about blew a hole in my panties.

odfairfaxsub
02-28-2012, 09:49 PM
Why are neutral and ground common inside the distribution/breaker box?


in the utility world and principle in wiring situations, you have hot legs (single phase 2 wires or 3 phase 3 wires) then you have neutral (return or voltage ballence relationship which returns to the substation) and a ground (grounds metal cases and surfaces you will touch in case they get in contact with a short) the difference between the ground and neutral in my opinion is

1. which one has a better ground shedding mechanical relief? the substation ground mat or your 2 ground rods in your house?

or

2. yeah how come their common in the pannel but the moment you touch the two together in a box ahead of a gfi they trip, the reason is i recon is it protects the circuit ahead of it not behind it.

in utility work we try to common our service neutral in the field to ground rods on every pole at a desirable ohm value. the transformer may appear to have a ground connected to them is for case ground protection to help shed some ground/case/phase short. the rest that cannot shed will go back into our ground mat in the substation.

odfairfaxsub
02-28-2012, 09:55 PM
From there on the neutral and ground are separate.

if your talking about in the pannel they are common because even if you seperate them in the box they are still common due to the different mechanical connectors being screwed into the metal pannel box. thats coninuety at its best

375RUGER
02-28-2012, 10:21 PM
So, if polarity reverses 60 times each second then why does it matter if the polarity is reversed at a particular outlet?

And why does old time metal case drill motors have a plug that can be plugged in either way and you don't get zapped? Then and now.

Catshooter
02-28-2012, 10:48 PM
Jeff,

I was an industrial/commercial electrician. As such, I worked with three phase most of the time.

Let me tell you, trying to fit my bi-polarness into three phase . . . well, it ani't easy.


Cat

C.F.Plinker
02-29-2012, 12:06 AM
And why does old time metal case drill motors have a plug that can be plugged in either way and you don't get zapped? Then and now.

You didn't get zapped because the electrical insulation within the drill motor protected you. Now let's assume that the insulation at the switch broke down and there was a short circuit to the case. With the plug in the outlet one way the switch would be at neutral (ground) potential, the case would be at the same potential, and your body wouldn't see any voltage to ground. But when the plug was turned around the case would be energized at 120 volts. When you touch the case you are also energized at that voltage. If you are insulated from ground -- heavy rubber soled boots-- no current can flow and, like the bird on the transmission line or the lineman with rubber gloves, you don't get hurt. But if you reach out and touch a grounded object with your other hand or kneel down on the ground you have completed a circuit to ground through your body. Hopefully the fault current is high enough to blow the fuse or trip the breaker very quickly. If the current is above .005 or .006 amps your heart can stop beating. This is ventricular fibrillation. How many times have you heard of someone getting hold of a faulty tool that he or she could not let go of and getting a severe electrical shock. This is what is happening.

Back in the early 60s they started adding the equipment grounding conductor (green or bare wire) to the tool cords. This wire was connected directly to the case and when the switch short circuited to the case would conduct the fault current back to the panel. Since there was an ohm or less the resulting current was enough to trip the breaker quickly. After this they came out with double insulated tools. These had a plastic case which wouldn't conduct electricity and thereby prevented shocks. The double insulated tools had the two prong plugs on them. Later they came out with ground fault current interrupters which open the circuit if there is more than a 5-6 mA difference between the current in the hot wire and the current in the neutral wire.

Since then the codes and standards have been improved and 3 wire grounding outlets are required in new buildings, and ground fault current interrupters and arc fault interrupters are now required in a lot more locations than they used to be.

This is being done to keep you and me and our kids and grandkids from getting hurt.

Dale in Louisiana
02-29-2012, 12:42 AM
Guys-

The neutral conductor, in electrical parlance, is the grounDED conductor. It is made to carry current during normal operation. The ground wire is the grounDING conductor. It is ONLY supposed to carry current as a safety function.

The neutral doesn't HAVE to be grounded from a strictly theoretical sense, but keeping it at ground potential insures that the highest voltage to ground in a 120/240 (most houses) system will be 120 volts. Assuming you make contact with ONE energized conductor, you are a lot more likely to live from 120 volts than you are from 240.

Note taht I am talking ONLY about 120/240 systems. As the other electrical folk here know, then you start dealing with 3-phase, a whole other set of headaches comes into play. some real electricians know this. Some don't.

I used to teach this stuff to budding electricians in years past. It's fun stuff to me.

dale in Louisiana

C.F.Plinker
02-29-2012, 12:42 AM
So, if polarity reverses 60 times each second then why does it matter if the polarity is reversed at a particular outlet?



We're using the term "polarity" in two different ways. One way is, as you used it first above to mean that the instantaneous voltage is above or below some reverence voltage. Here we say that the polarity varies 170 volts above or below neutral 60 times a second. The other use is when we say that the energized conductor has a different voltage than the neutral conductor. In this case we are talking about an rms (root mean square) voltage which has a constant value even though the instantaneous voltage is changing. When we say the polarity of the wires is reversed we are talking about the latter.

When things work as they should we may not care if the hot and neutral are interchanged. After all the motor in your drill motor turns the same direction regardless of which way the plug is inserted in the outlet. Good practice (not to mention the National Electric Code) requires that the hot leg is the one that is switched. Now let's assume that your drill motor now has a grounded case and you left it plugged in. If the winding shorts out to the case and the switch is in the hot leg nothing will happen because there is no voltage on the winding. However, if the switch is in the neutral because the outlet was wired backwards there is voltage on the winding and the motor will start. And because it is just lying on the bench it will try to get into as much trouble as it can.

Jammer Six
02-29-2012, 01:15 AM
[Jammer waves his hands excitedly over his head and dances around]

Tell him about that bloody hose and the water and the water pressure!

cbrick
02-29-2012, 10:18 AM
Very interesting thread. I too am in the process of buying a home, I too had the home inspection say that two outlets and a wall switch are reversed polarity. My initial thought was, no biggie I'll just get an electrician to check it out and fix it. I'll also have ground fault outlets installed in the bathroon & kitchen where there aren't any. I also need a water tight junction box installed at well pump.

Then I found this thread and read through all of it and came to the conclusion that my initial thought was correct, bite the bullet and hire an electrician and do it right.

Rick

odfairfaxsub
02-29-2012, 01:14 PM
polarity realy serves dc electricity better. polarity as in one wire is positive and the other negative but works a/c as well i guess just never called it that. its either a hot, a phase, a hot leg, phase leg, power leg, or neutral or ground.

The neutral conductor, in electrical parlance, is the grounDED conductor. It is made to carry current during normal operation. The ground wire is the grounDING conductor. It is ONLY supposed to carry current as a safety function

this was probably the best explained this way. jolly good!!!

gray wolf
02-29-2012, 02:53 PM
This place is a wonderland of information.
I like the way things are explained, and questions answered.
Thanks men.

sam

Catshooter
02-29-2012, 06:16 PM
Actually 2muchstuff is incorrect. Don't do that Beau.

Here's the problem. When you look at the new light bulb that you're about to screw into the light fixture, look at the base. See the shiny aluminum male threaded portion? And on the very bottom the little brass colored dot about 3/8" or so?

Well the shiny aluminum part needs to connect to the neutral. Just imagine if that part was connecting to the hot. It's very easy to touch that part as your screwing the bulb in. When it connects to the neutral it's very difficult for it to hurt you.

But if the polarity is reversed, that aluminum shell becomes hot. So when you plug in a lamp to a reversed polarity circuit, uh oh.

Now if you don't track down the source of the reversed polarity? Well, who's to say that the problem isn't in a light switch box somewhere? So when you're in your bathroom with one hand bracing you on the sink faucet, one foot on the toilet and straining to screw in that light bulb and your finger touches that bulb's shell . . . you could be late for work.

For you electricians who say there is no such thing as polarity in alternating current, that is, in a rather esoteric way true. But in a house the practical truth is touch a neutral, what happens? Touch a hot, what happens?

Hope that helps you Beau and answers Springfield's question too.


Cat

Longwood
02-29-2012, 07:20 PM
So I need to change a simple wall plug in the bedroom of my new house.
No biggie.
Do I hunt for the lost flashlight, move my truck and the stacks of boxes so I can get at the breaker panel in the freezing garage, or since I know as long as I don't touch the black wire I am OK and change the plug on a hot circuit?
No biggie.
I have done it a few times befo,,,,,,,
ZAP!
Then the cussin and name calling, starts

Catshooter
03-01-2012, 06:28 PM
375RUGER & oneokie,

The ground conductor is conected to the neutral in your breaker (or fuse) panel very deliberatley and as a safety.

Let's say you've holding your sawzall in one hand and with the other you plug it in. Now, unknown to you some little pixie has gone inside it and not only broken one of the hot wires off, but the little bugger has pushed that shiny copper wire hard against the metal case of the tool that you're holding in your sweaty little paw.

Since the sawzall has a three prong cord and your home grounding system is in wonderful shape the hot AC voltage, which usually shows a preference for using the path of least resistence will jump down that grounding wire and run all the way back to your electrical panel. Now the power has a safe place to go, and you probably didn't feel much of it, we hope.

Now usually the hot flows into the electric motor of the sawzall and the motor's resistance puts a damper on just how many amps the hot is allowed to draw from your panel. But in this new pathway there is waaaaaaaaaaay less resistence and it limit of amps is way, way higher. It will start drawing more and more amps since there is much less resistence to restrain it.

Soner or later the amount of amps the circuit is drawing has exceeded the 15 or 20 amp breaker/fuse that you're plugged into and pop goes either the fuse or the breaker.

This all takes place fairly quickly of course. Exactly how fast depends on lots of factors but it usually, in a home takes a quarter of a second or so.

That is why the grounding conductors all tie into the neutral.

The way a Ground Fault Interupter works is that it's circuitry is always watching how many amps are on the hot. It is at the same time always comparing that number to the amount of amps that the neutral has on it. When they are different by much more than .005 of one amp it shuts off the power.

Simple stuff really. :)


Cat

oneokie
03-01-2012, 07:45 PM
375RUGER & oneokie,

The ground conductor is conected to the neutral in your breaker (or fuse) panel very deliberatley and as a safety.

That is why the grounding conductors all tie into the neutral.

Simple stuff really. :)


Cat

Exactly.

By having the neutral buss and the ground buss connected, stray voltage does not back feed all the circuits in that box. Also, to MY thinking, it eliminates the need for a 4 wire service from the meter to the service panel, and/or the need for ground rods connected to the service panel neutral buss.

Many of the new breaker box service panels do not have the neutral and ground buss bonded (connected).

Catshooter
03-01-2012, 08:28 PM
The only requirement for a four wire service (that isn't three phase) has been for a mobile home. Or for a sub-panel. At least as far as I know. All though you never know. I've seen and worked with a five wire service. Four hot conductors and a ground. No neutral. That was weird.

Connecting the neutral & ground in the service panel doesn't eliiminate the need for ground rod(s). Ground rods are where shorting electricity goes, so they are very much needed.

In my 34 years I have never seen a new-in-the-box panel have the ground tied to the neutral bus. That's because the manufactuer doesn't know if the panel is going to be for a service or a sub-panel. All panel come with the parts needed to make that connection.


Cat

floodgate
03-01-2012, 08:53 PM
One problem that has not been discussed is that of an outbuilding (barn, shop, trailer or "man-cave") fed from the house breaker-box. Codes differ as to whether you should carry the ground (not the neutral) from your house meter box in a 4-wire setup, or whether you should ground to a new ground-rod at the outbuilding, with a three-wire link. You can develop quite a bit of potential between buildings, even in the ground, and a long run of neutral can get pretty "hot" versus the ground via current times line resistance. Is a separate ground rod at the sub-panel in the shop - and no ground link to the house - the best way to go? I've heard it argued both ways. This is a setup many of us use; I have a three-wire, 110 vac (150 ft. of #10 stranded) cable to my shop from the house, and no local ground rod, but am not real comfortable with it. My IBEW "wireman" buddy says, "it depends". On what?

floodgate

C.F.Plinker
03-01-2012, 09:50 PM
My IBEW "wireman" buddy says, "it depends". On what?

floodgate

It largely depends on what you are serving in the building and how many branch circuits are in the building. Get with your IBEW buddy and a copy of the National Electric Code section 250-32 and see which exceptions to the requirement for an ground rod at each building, if any, apply to your building(s).

Catshooter
03-01-2012, 10:30 PM
In the National Electrical Code, it's not both ways if you have a panel in the out building. It's three wire (for 120 volt set up) or four wire (for 240 volts), with a ground rod at the sub panel.

But Floodgate if you're not having problems do you need to fix it? You can always add a ground rod if it would make you feel better. It can't hurt. Do you have a sub panel there? 240 volts? You definatley want a gounding conductor to the house.

In my experience most electricians don't really understand the whole grounding/bonding thing.


Cat

floodgate
03-01-2012, 10:43 PM
Catshooter:

Thanks! I'm not having problems. No panel in the shop (3-wire 120 v.), just a powerstrip with overload cutoff, and no ground rod. I do have a 3-wire (#10 solid, 175 ft., center neutral, no ground lead) 220v. line to the the pump controller at the barn, and there I do have a ground rod. So I'm trying it both ways, and no problems over 10+ years.

floodgate

odfairfaxsub
03-01-2012, 11:08 PM
Now if you don't track down the source of the reversed polarity? Well, who's to say that the problem isn't in a light switch box somewhere? So when you're in your bathroom with one hand bracing you on the sink faucet, one foot on the toilet and straining to screw in that light bulb and your finger touches that bulb's shell . . . you could be late for work.

good point catshooter, that would prob be my most found problem with bulbs that shoot out too much, outdoor lights with reversed neutral and hot, bugs tracking the circuit out to ground. good call

Catshooter
03-01-2012, 11:18 PM
Then I wouldn't worry Floodgate. Electrical problems usually, not always, but usually let you know with little warnings. Most people pay them no mind and that can be bad.

Thanks odfairfaxsub. I've let the smoke out of many, many electrical components over the years and have even learned from some of them!


Cat

2muchstuf
03-01-2012, 11:30 PM
OK guys ,
I stand corrected.
Excellent example catshooter.
I now see the light.

I guess it's just my old school thinking coming out.
For right around 100 years it didn't matter witch way you put the plug in.

A much more informed 2

jblee10
03-01-2012, 11:38 PM
Floodgate. I would be worried about voltage drop with that length of #10. Of course I have no idea what size or amperage pump you are running. But running equipment at low voltage can be hard on it.

Lloyd Smale
03-02-2012, 06:54 AM
your best bet is to contact your local electrical inspector. Many of the codes are up for interpatation. You need to please him not a book to get your inspection past. In our area if you have an outbuilding with a pannel it would need seperate ground rods and it would need two of them to be exact and i believe they would have to be 12 feet apart. Bottom line is it never hurts to have to many ground rods. Ive got two on my house, two on the garage, two on the pole barn and two on my emergency geneator circuit thats tied into the rest of the system.
One problem that has not been discussed is that of an outbuilding (barn, shop, trailer or "man-cave") fed from the house breaker-box. Codes differ as to whether you should carry the ground (not the neutral) from your house meter box in a 4-wire setup, or whether you should ground to a new ground-rod at the outbuilding, with a three-wire link. You can develop quite a bit of potential between buildings, even in the ground, and a long run of neutral can get pretty "hot" versus the ground via current times line resistance. Is a separate ground rod at the sub-panel in the shop - and no ground link to the house - the best way to go? I've heard it argued both ways. This is a setup many of us use; I have a three-wire, 110 vac (150 ft. of #10 stranded) cable to my shop from the house, and no local ground rod, but am not real comfortable with it. My IBEW "wireman" buddy says, "it depends". On what?

floodgate

Beau Cassidy
03-02-2012, 07:36 AM
Well everything is a moot point now as the seller didnt want to hold up his end of the agreement on a few points. It was an awsome house (5 bedroom 4 1/2 bath) but things happen for a reason.

Catshooter
03-02-2012, 11:25 AM
Lloyd,

I would avoid calling an inspector unless I needed him (there is an electrical permit involved).

Many inspectors won't come out until there's a permit purchased.

Mostly it's sorta like calling the ATF for help. You really don't want them around unless you have too. "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" ? It can happen, I've had good inspectors, lots of them. But that's a really risky door to open. Once it's open you can't close it. He does.


Cat

2muchstuf
03-02-2012, 07:22 PM
Sorry to hear it fell through for you Beau.
I could tell you were a little pumped about it.
2

Lloyd Smale
03-03-2012, 08:26 AM
I kind of have to argue that. Ive was a lineman for over 30 years and delt with electrical inspectors at least weekly and knew many of them personaly. To a man, up here at least, theyd much rather have you ask if you have a question then not and have them come to inspect you and have to fail you. As to trying to hide from the electrical inspector to save 50 bucks that my freinds is a big mistake. the inspector is there to make sure your stuff is safe. Safe for you, safe for the next people that buy it and safe for the guys working on it. I can remember a few times myself hooking up and installing meters in new construction or rebuild projects back before we insisted on inspections first. Ive seen meters actually blown right out of sockets and ive seen transformers and service lines do a hell of a dance because stuff was crossed up. these guys are far from the nazis or atf guys. there just guys doing a job and there job is to protect YOU from YOU! Ive been around a bunch of construction and will tell you this. Anyone that is afraid of an inspector is just someone that wants to cut corners. If i had a contractor that made noise about an inspector comming id be watching him VERY CLOSELY!! Beau im sorry about the missed home but theres lots out there for sale right now and if your patient theres some real good deals to be had.
Lloyd,

I would avoid calling an inspector unless I needed him (there is an electrical permit involved).

Many inspectors won't come out until there's a permit purchased.

Mostly it's sorta like calling the ATF for help. You really don't want them around unless you have too. "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" ? It can happen, I've had good inspectors, lots of them. But that's a really risky door to open. Once it's open you can't close it. He does.


Cat

Catshooter
03-03-2012, 06:18 PM
Argue all you want Lloyd.

I agree 100% that I would be very worried about a contractor who didn't want an inspection.

And trying to hide from an inspector is silly.

And no one said anything about being afraid of inspectors.

But who's talking about contractors here? And the OP doesn't have or need a permit to fix his reversed polarity problem that he now doesn't have.

I have no idea of how things are set up in Michigan, but in Washington state a lineman would have zero dealings with an electrical inspector. They do their own inspections, as is set up in the National Electrical Code. Utilities in Michigan are inspected? How strange.

As I said before, most inspectors are great guys. But there are exceptions. There was one Tacoma city inspector who had two atempts on his life while on the job that I'm aware.

And the code can be very easy to interput, one way or the other.

I suspect I have far more experience with inspectors than y'all my friend. I was never afraid of them as I didn't cut corners (despite many of my bosses) but some can make life miserable and that can seem to be their goal at times.

I've had some that inspected from their car, especially when they knew it was my job. And I've had some that just knew they weren't doing their job if they didn't find something wrong.

Maybe your experience is different.


Cat

oneokie
03-03-2012, 06:28 PM
Another question:

What is the purpose of having a 4 conductor service to a sub panel? (2 hots, a ground, and a neutral? Especially when ground rods are installed and connected to the ground buss of the sub panel?

boltons75
03-03-2012, 06:30 PM
Another question:

What is the purpose of having a 4 conductor service to a sub panel? (2 hots, a ground, and a neutral? Especially when ground rods are installed and connected to the ground buss of the sub panel?

Sounds like a 220v service.

Always carry, never tell.

felix
03-03-2012, 06:58 PM
Done correctly. Pat your electrician on the back, and provide a case of whatever for the thanks. ... felix

Jammer Six
03-03-2012, 09:21 PM
From a (retired) general contractor's point of view, generally speaking, (that's pretty funny, huh?) the code is such a low standard that I would be embarrassed if my product met code, and that was all.

That said, there are some points in the code that are significant, usually the newest points. (Which are the results of the latest research.) Around here, when I retired (and held a ceremony in which I burned my old copies of Means and my code books) those points centered around earthquakes. The Nisqually quake had quite an impact on building codes here. I actually regret burning my copies... but I digress. A lot of it is online, now.

I would also like to point out, again, that I remain blissfully ignorant of electrical codes and requirements. Over the course of my career, my expertise took up a trajectory of business, bidding, leadership and personnel management. I learned enough about electricity to value electricians very highly. (Although the same can be said about any expert tradesmen, including a genuine Journeyman Laborer. Perhaps especially a genuine Journeyman Laborer.) I can recognize the absolute basics, and know when to say "I'm pretty sure that isn't right...", and I know how to compare what's in the wall to what's on the print, but that's it.

My hat is off to, and I owe my financial well-being to the electricians and other tradesmen who were expert enough to point at a print and say "that's not going to work."

My point in this post is simply that excluding electrical, the code is an extremely low bar, and I invite electricians to comment on that point.

Catshooter
03-04-2012, 09:08 PM
oneokie,

Two hots, a neutral and a ground is correct for a sub-panel. A 240 volt sub panel. Gounding is about 50% of the entire idea of electrical installation safety. Hard to do too much, not all that hard to get wrong. But a complete and properly installed grounding system is a really good assurence that the most important part of the safety equation is in place.

Jammer,

The way the National Electrical Code is created is pretty interesting. The code is broken up into a bunch of smaller sections and given to individual panels Each panel is made up of someone from a electrical manufacturer, an electrical inspection person and someone from the contracting/electrician field. One from each area. They are all volenteers. They hammer out the codes.

The result is a balenced look at what is optimum, what can practically be done, and how that works for inspection. Or tries to be, as best as three human beings can get it.

So I think that the code, in my trade anyway isn't the bare bottom. The code is designed to keep people from getting shocked and to keep property from burning down.

Works pretty well, most of the time . . . :)


Cat

Dumpy
03-04-2012, 10:23 PM
The reason for the 4 wire is that the code wants an insulated neutral going all the way back to the panel and not hooked to ground at the sub panel. When you ground a sub panel it must be attached to the main ground at the panel to make sure you don't have a difference of potential between the grounds. Reverse polarity is when the hot & neutral are reversed which can have disastrous results. The two wire drills etc have to be either double insulated or have a polarized plug ( one end is larger than the other such as a lamp ) But they can still conduct because the carbon brushes are a conductor and worn carbon comes out the vent breather on the drills where you hold them. There is no three phase that is approved for residential homes. They have to zoned commercial. The code book ( NFPA- 70 ) is only a part of over 100 articles that the NFPA covers. It is the minimal and maximum standards to which houses are wired. The AHJ can be more stringent than the code but not less. There would be no need for inspectors if contractors and homeowners didn't cheat and say that's good enough. And by the way your breakers are rated for 10,000 amps on an instantaneous fault, because that is what the transformer can deliver in an heartbeat on a DEAD short. There are three things that kill you in your sleep---Gas---Electric--and an irate woman.

30 year electrician & presently an instructor

Catshooter
03-05-2012, 12:41 AM
NFPA= National Fire Protection Agency
AHJ= Authority Having Jusitiction (inspector for most cases)

"There would be no need for inspectors if contractors and homeowners didn't cheat and say that's good enough."

I disagree with the above, there is also lack of knowledge and just plain mistakes. Not everyone is a cheat, though some inspectors (and apparently at least one instructor) think so. :)

"And by the way your breakers are rated for 10,000 amps on an instantaneous fault, because that is what the transformer can deliver in an heartbeat on a DEAD short."

That statement is also not correct. The peak of a fault current is determined by a host of factors, size & length of service conductors, transformer impedence, total fault current available on the utility circuit and others.

Residential breakers are ususally rated for 10K amps because that's a fairly safe number that most home services won't exceed and still staying within a reasonable cost.

And lastly and least importantly, there are quite few homes with three phase. I even know of one home that has 480 volt three phase (Bill Gates). Maybe there aren't any where you live but there are plenty elsewhere.

Welcome to the forum Dumpy.


Cat

Lloyd Smale
03-05-2012, 07:39 AM
We delt with them all the time. Thing is up here its a small rural area and we knew all the inspectors personaly. Heck theyd stop by and have coffee at our shop. they would let us know who was inspected so we could hook up the service. There was a time earlier in my career where it was much more lax. Licenced electricians could have power hooked up without an inspection and even friends of freinds got stuff hooked up. There were close calls because of this and we were all glad when it was clamped down on. I dont know of a single line truck in our company that dosent have the inspectors phone number in it in case theres questions or a single lineman that doesnt know the inspector by first name. Heck our end of the year christmas party would allways include the inspector and all the local electricians. Im not here for an arguement either. My point is just this. those inspectors are far from aft agents or goverment officials trying to ruin your life. there guys like you and me doing a job and there job is to see that nobody gets hurt.
Argue all you want Lloyd.

I agree 100% that I would be very worried about a contractor who didn't want an inspection.

And trying to hide from an inspector is silly.

And no one said anything about being afraid of inspectors.

But who's talking about contractors here? And the OP doesn't have or need a permit to fix his reversed polarity problem that he now doesn't have.

I have no idea of how things are set up in Michigan, but in Washington state a lineman would have zero dealings with an electrical inspector. They do their own inspections, as is set up in the National Electrical Code. Utilities in Michigan are inspected? How strange.

As I said before, most inspectors are great guys. But there are exceptions. There was one Tacoma city inspector who had two atempts on his life while on the job that I'm aware.

And the code can be very easy to interput, one way or the other.

I suspect I have far more experience with inspectors than y'all my friend. I was never afraid of them as I didn't cut corners (despite many of my bosses) but some can make life miserable and that can seem to be their goal at times.

I've had some that inspected from their car, especially when they knew it was my job. And I've had some that just knew they weren't doing their job if they didn't find something wrong.

Maybe your experience is different.


Cat

Catshooter
03-05-2012, 12:06 PM
That's kinda what I was figuring Lloyd. Small town/rural America can still think, the big cities don't allow that sort of activity. There's always exceptions, both ways but in general that true. Most of my work was in Seattle where Liberals run free and people that think are an endangered specie.


Cat

44man
03-05-2012, 02:00 PM
I will flame indeed. Do you really believe this?

Old cast iron equipment (like power drills and fans, for example) run neutral to the case. Any failure of a hot line, rather than zapping you, would short out to the case and trip the breaker.

Saving you.

Reverse polarity? the drill would work fine like you suggest, and you'd never know. As long as you were wearing gloves. bare skinned, you'd be singing a different tune!
This is the answer. You never want the hot line to the case and is why most plugs have one larger prong. Only plastic tools can be plugged in both ways and not always them either.
Your body makes a great common to ground!
That white wire is earth return to the power station.
Yes, the ground wire goes to the same earth return at the box but never do that except at the box. The ground has a different function then the white wire.

44man
03-05-2012, 02:35 PM
Current comes from the hot side even though it cycles 60 times a second. A function of the generator. NO current is sent in the white wires.
Look at the box, there are two busses, one for each side, 120 volts but bridge both and you have 240 volts and you use a different breaker for that. Those wires feeding the busses are out of phase with each other.
Two hot wires coming in out of phase allow you to use 240 volt equipment like your dryer or compressor.

Dumpy
03-06-2012, 11:56 AM
Catshooter: Maybe I was a little too harsh, but there should not be lack of understanding. The code book is available to everyone and a inspector is only a phone call away. I work with current inspectors and they get phone calls all the time for interpretations. Most of their failures are the result of more disregard than interpretations of what needs to be done. How many house fires are said to be electrical in nature ? What happens if someone dies in a fire ? Your absolutely correct on Bill Gates house. However there were some zoning issues and he was grandfathers on some things. I have seen other instructors show people how to put in a carter system for a 3-way to save a wire. Inspectors usually know who they have to watch. anyway thank you for the correction.

44man
03-08-2012, 01:01 PM
Three wire switches for one here and one there are also pretty easy. When I bought my house, there was a switch upstairs and down for the basement light but it did not work. Found two wires and played the devil getting a three wire up the wall at the steps.
An "expert" did the house for the owner.
Electrical fires are almost always loose connections that get hot, VERY HOT! Under size wires are also bad. My lights get 12 but motors get 10 and large stuff gets 8. Is that stuff ever hard to work with!

nanuk
03-17-2012, 05:51 AM
I work with a small flashlight in my mouth a lot. Better than getting bit. those strap on headlamps are great for this Test. Test. Test. And touch no bare copper, the white wire can bite as hard as the black one.

Before I"d lose a lot of sleep over this and start tearing walls apart to look for junction boxes and such ,I would just switch the wires on those 6 or 7 receps.Really, you would do that?


One other caution never mentioned is to make sure all connections are tight, tighten the screws. Never use the stupid wire plug ins in the back of outlets, you can burn the house down. Use the screws.
Good advice there


NEVER connect ground to neutral. They are NOT the same. Neutral BELONGS to the circuit, and ground does NOT. ... felix
Excellent observation
Ground is the neutral for extraneous inputs, such as static, lightning, etc., completing its own circuit external to ours. ... felix


In a properly assembled and operating electrical system there are only KNOWN voltage sources and paths to ground. On a jury-rigged, bubba'd, hacked up, thrown together system, you're on your own, so be VERY careful.
Excellent observation
dale in Louisiana

.... But when the plug was turned around the case would be energized at 120 volts. a good reason to avoid those old hand tools, routinely sold in unknown condition at Farm Auctions



Do I hunt for the lost flashlight, move my truck and the stacks of boxes so I can get at the breaker panel in the freezing garage,My inspector discussed with me the need for accessability at the panel.


Many of the new breaker box service panels do not have the neutral and ground buss bonded (connected).I'm gonna have to check mine again.


Lloyd,
I would avoid calling an inspector unless I needed him (there is an electrical permit involved). I get a permit for everything now, as a homeowner on a acreage, I can do my own work, but if my house burns down, and it wasn't inspected work, my insurance would probably be void
Cat

This is a great thread. Thanks to all for contributing!

Catshooter
03-17-2012, 08:34 PM
You know, I've re-thought that line of mine. "I would avoid call an inspector . . ." I do/would avoid calling an inspector unless I need him, but then I have a bit of electrical work under my belt. I won't do it any other way than safe. And home owners insurence isn't an issue for me.

But, nanuk you make a very valid point. Since the majority don't know electrical work, and insurence can be a problem I'd look for all the help I could get. Electricity is very dangerous. Especially since it is everywhere around most of us, so much that we take it for granted. The electricity in your home is far more dangerous than a loaded and cocked firearm.


Cat

44man
03-19-2012, 10:55 AM
I built my own addition, drew it up on the basement floor to the last board. I had to get a permit which was dirt cheap at the time. I asked for a code book and the lady said "no codes", just call for a tax assessor to look when I was done.
I went overboard, put junction boxes where needed and kept outlets and lights to a minimum for each breaker. All is good.
Then one day in the garage "old part, not my work" I had a spark at an outlet. I found the wire up the wall had burned insulation. Loose connections with wires stuck in the little holes in back of the outlet. I had to fish new wire to the junction box and replace the outlet.
Then I had trouble with a light in the old bathroom. I found a loose wire nut in a junction box in the attic.
Never let stuff go, find the problem FAST and fix it.
My daughter had a problem putting up a ceiling fan, it kept burning up. I went over to find all wiring was 220 volts in her house. Yeah, crazy! I fixed the fan.
Electric is easy but if you need help, get it. Your home and life is on the line.
Wiring is easy, much more so then laying block with a string level. I found my addition was 1/8" out of square when I put up the drywall.
I may be harsh, but if you own your home, you should be able to fix anything from new shingles to a new water pipe.
My grandson has a BIG butt and poops logs to plug the toilet! :evil:.
He lives on Pizza! [smilie=w:I have to keep a plunger handy. You CAN fix things without calling someone all the time.
You should know every single thing about your home and should be able to fix every single thing.

Beau Cassidy
03-22-2012, 07:51 PM
Thanks for everybody's input. This has become quite the interesting thread. I did not proceed with purchasing the house mainly because the appraisal came back lower than the agreed upon price. When this happened the guy selling the house would not honor his agreement to pay for things like he said he would (and contractually agreed to). In no uncertain terms I told him where he could put it. Things work out for the best and I have decided to leave GA and get back to TN. Had I bought the house I would have certainly been stuck here as this is one of the worst areas of the country to buy a house in. I have my earnest money back and am moving on.

Catshooter
03-22-2012, 09:38 PM
Good luck Beau.


Cat

44man
03-23-2012, 10:09 AM
Thanks for everybody's input. This has become quite the interesting thread. I did not proceed with purchasing the house mainly because the appraisal came back lower than the agreed upon price. When this happened the guy selling the house would not honor his agreement to pay for things like he said he would (and contractually agreed to). In no uncertain terms I told him where he could put it. Things work out for the best and I have decided to leave GA and get back to TN. Had I bought the house I would have certainly been stuck here as this is one of the worst areas of the country to buy a house in. I have my earnest money back and am moving on.
Good for you. It is a pain to get stuck with fixing.
Then there is weather in parts of the country. Places I would never live. Tornado alley, flood plains, places lower then sea level, violent storms, no water at all, etc.