Help,This mold is driving me nuts

[quack1]

I have a mold I got with a package deal that has been giving me fits. I originally planned on trading it off, as it was the only one of the bunch I didn't have a real use for. I thought before I moved it along I would try it out. I’ve had problem molds before, but was able to get them to work after a little load development and tinkering. I tried to make this one work with acceptable accuracy all last summer with dismal results. Here is what I have tried:
Gun: S&W M-19 .357 6" barrel Throats measure .3578 Barrel slugs .3571
Mold: Lyman DC 358480 140gr SWC Drops bullets .3592 and .359 (Casts great looking boolets)
Alloys: my normal pistol mix- 50% wheelweights/ 50% lead; AC wheelweights+2%tin
Lube: FWFL (tried lubing one groove and both grooves); LLA
Sized: .357; .358 (what the gun likes in other boolets); as cast
Crimps: heavy, light and none.
Powders: Every powder I had that I could find data for. AL-8, Bullseye, Unique, 700X, 2400, 4227, HS-7, Herco, Red Dot. I tried a spread of powder weights with each powder, low to medium velocities.
I even weighed 100 randomly picked boolets to make sure I wasn't getting voids or inclusions, none found.
The very best I could get was a 4" group at 25yds. Most loads were all over the paper. I did all shooting with the ejector shroud resting on a sandbag. The gun and I can shoot better than that. I have 3 other molds for that gun that drop boolets I can keep in at least 1 ½ “ at 25 yds.
I have tried everything I can think of to get these boolets to shoot- anyone else have suggestions?
Thanks

[Lloyd Smale]

some guns dont like some bullets and some bullets just dont shoot in any gun. If a bullet is only shooting 4 inch theres not much chance your going to cut that in half with any combination of alloy size or lube or load. You may shave an inch off of it but thats about it. I have a few standard loads i use for testing in differnt caliber handguns and if a bullet doesnt at least do 3 inch right from the get go i look for another bullet design.

[Ricochet]

Well, since you've been messing with these boolits, have you tried other loads that shoot better? I don't mean in the past. Maybe something else is affecting your accuracy.

[Lloyd Smale]

Richochet made a good point. Do you even know that the gun is accurate to begin with. My statements consern guns that i have proven to shoot well.

[3sixbits]

I think you had the right idea the first time, get rid of the mold!

[leftiye]

If the mold casts pretty boolits as you say, and they are sized correctly (which we'll assume), it ain't the mold. If you've done all of that testing (which I would be way too lazy to do for anything but a primary use load), the best guess is probably Lloyd's - the boolit design doesn't work in that (any?) gun.

[McKenzie]

It may not apply, and I'm no expert, but I have heard/read that sometimes seating a wadcutter upside down makes all the difference in the world in accuracy.

[Bass Ackward]

I tried a spread of powder weights with each powder, low to medium velocities.


Quacker,

This statement above is the basis for every comment I will make here.

If you are getting over 3" groups at 25 yards, you aren't stabilizing that bullet. Want proof? Take 6 loaded rounds (any load) and drill the nose slightly. Use a hand drill or a power screw driver. Just a divot is all that is needed. You don't have to be perfect, just put a little hole, off center or whatever is OK. Shoot those 6 and watch your group size drop by 50%.

The 358480 is basically a 50/50 bullet design with a narrow base band. By that I mean the balance point is farther forward than it should be. If you don't have the weight on the back to make it easier to stabilize, then you need velocity to stabilize it. It will remain stable as long as you have that velocity. Once lost, the bullet will stray wildly.

The disadvantage here is that it is a PB design, so top end may cause leading which is self defeating. And you may need a cool burning ball powder to do it like AA#9 / H110. From what you list, I would try ACWW or water drop your 50/50 mix and 14.5 grains of 2400 and hang on. Please use the Felix lube. Then when it shoots, you need to make a decision to either shoot faster or change designs. Then tweak your conditions for best accuracy if you want, but you are wasting your time until you stabilize it. Size BIG and crimp heavy since you don't have a longer bearing length for case neck tension.

Let us know how you make out.

[beagle]

For some reason, I've not had good results with that version of the 358430 either. Now, the 195-200 grain version works all right but I think that one might be a dud.

I've tried it in a S & W M15, a Ruger BH and a Marlin .357 carbine.

There's no reason to beat your head against the wall if you have designs that work better and there are./beagle

[quack1]

Lloyd and Ricochet: At first I thought the problem might be my bad shooting or something went wrong with the gun. I started taking boolets from Lyman 358271, 35863 and 358430 and shooting them at the same range sessions as the problem boolets. They all shot good previously and continued to shoot the same throughout the summer, so, thankfully, the gun and my abilities hadn't changed.

Bass: I remembered your thread of a couple months ago about drilling noses and had planned to try it with these boolets (stuck a note in my loading record book so I wouldn't forget). I'll try it with the best load I have found (4" at 25 yds). I'm just waiting for the snow to melt and the range to dry out some. You also may have something about the narrow base band. The gun really likes the 358271, and it has a thicker/heavier base band than the 358480.

I know I have probably spent more time with this mold than it was worth, and that some boolets wont shoot in some guns. I just figured I might learn something new while tinkering. Also the "irritation factor" had a part. I was thinking at each range session "I have cast for a lot of years-I SHOULD be able to get this boolet to shoot".
Thanks for the replys.

[Bass Ackward]

I know I have probably spent more time with this mold than it was worth, and that some boolets wont shoot in some guns. I was thinking at each range session "I have cast for a lot of years-I SHOULD be able to get this boolet to shoot". I just figured I might learn something new while tinkering.


Quack,

Well, I think you have gained some very valuable education if you make note of it. How bullet design factors into stabilization. And what to look for in a design based upon what velocity you want to run. And I suppose not to waste a lot of time and loading supplies "tweeking" if you have a stabilization issue.

I mean we assume that if I have an 18 twist in a handgun, we should be guaranteed to stabilize up to "X" amount of weight according to the Greenhill formula. Not true.

Meplat size and unsupported nose weight are pretty well fixed per caliber. At least I should say that we as reloaders have our "expectations" of what we expect to see outside of the case as a minimum. It's macho.

Bearing area must take the hit for lighter designs. And that is why semi wad-cutters and truncated cone designs proliferate amongst lighter handgun designs. Cuts nose weight and sets the balance point back. Stabilization is why you hear most handgunners say I need hard bullets and I have to run pretty much right on the top to get accuracy.

That is not to say someone won't come along and shoot 3 grains of Bullseye and punch one hole if they have everything just right, but for most people, that bullet will be highly sensitive to load velocity. In truth, I wouldn't want to push it in a Mdl 19. As Beagle said, there are simply too many other designs to use if that one isn't going to work.

[Ricochet]

Just thought I'd ask, Quack. Sometimes I need to be reminded of the obvious. :-D

[quack1]

An update on this boolet:
Got some nice weather, so I tried B A's hollowpoint procedure. Rather than a hand drill, I used a case trimmer with a drill bit. Drilled enough to shoot four groups of six shots each. Largest group was 3" smallest was 2 1/4". Drilling noses works. Before drilling, the best group with this load was 4". I didn't cut the group size in half, but there was a definite improvement. Thanks B A, I did learn something.
I'm still going to sell or trade the mold, though.

[Cherokee]

quack - sounds like a good move. I have never gotten the 358480 to shoot worth a hoot in the 38 Spl, 357 Mag or 38 Super.