Factory or reloads for carry ammo?

[Lead Freak]

I'm curious what everyone uses as carry ammo for personal defense. Do you use reloads, cast or jacketed, and why?

[BulletFactory]

Cast reloads.

I'm running FMJ for now, once I'm finished developing a load, I'll be carrying reloads, cast.

A clean shoot is a clean shoot, no need for the old ayoob debate again.

I have no CPL, so I am required to case unload,and uncase reload, everytime I enter or exit a vehicle. Repeated chamberings of the same round causes bullet setback, and thus, dangerous overpressure conditions. Im not buying expensive hollowpoints just to throw them out. Besides, I get better groups from my reloads.

[Sasquatch-1]

I have mention this in another thread a while back that I would only carry Factory ammo not reloads as a concealed or open carry load. Where as it is not illegal to carry hand loads you must rember that a shooting incident goes in front of a Grand Jury for possible indictment. One question that can often be asked is "Why did you feel the need to load a more powerful round then you can buy?". This is whether it was loaded hotter or lighter the public may perceive you as a wacko looking to make someone explode.

[Lead Freak]

I have mention this in another thread a while back that I would only carry Factory ammo not reloads as a concealed or open carry load. Where as it is not illegal to carry hand loads you must rember that a shooting incident goes in front of a Grand Jury for possible indictment. One question that can often be asked is "Why did you feel the need to load a more powerful round then you can buy?". This is whether it was loaded hotter or lighter the public may perceive you as a wacko looking to make someone explode.

Great point! Unfortunately.

[ku4hx]

I'm curious what everyone uses as carry ammo for personal defense. Do you use reloads, cast or jacketed, and why?

I use only factory baseball bats now to defend myself. Several years ago I stopped using my homemade Hickory baseball bat I made in shop in High School circa 1963.

I read using my custom bat could get me in legal troubles as the bat could be said to have been made to be "extra" powerful and I certainly didn't want that.

I use factory bats only now and feel much safer for it.

[Shiloh]

I don't carry. If I did, it would be factory ammo.
My personal home defense weapons have factory ammo.

I would think that if involved in a shoot, the factory vs. reload debate would be just another of the mountains of legalese one would have to deal with.

Shiloh

[sundog]

I do not use my home made pencils anymore. Something I write, even though protected under I Amd, could be construed as dangerous and inflammatory, and thus be used against me in court of law.

[ku4hx]

I do not use my home made pencils anymore. Something I write, even though protected under I Amd, could be construed as dangerous and inflammatory, and thus be used against me in court of law.

I feel your pain! The pen IS mightier than the sword. But I believe I've found a loophole for the problem. If you cut the pencil down to no longer than 1.85" and use only solid rounded nose lead, you'll be safe. That or pink crayons.

[white eagle]

reload is what I do when I empty the cylinder
spent a great many years building reliable handloads
why on earth would I carry any different
for p/d I would use the softest boolit I could and it would carry
a large h.p but that is me you milage may vary

[Hardcast416taylor]

I use only factory baseball bats now to defend myself. Several years ago I stopped using my homemade Hickory baseball bat I made in shop in High School circa 1963.

I read using my custom bat could get me in legal troubles as the bat could be said to have been made to be "extra" powerful and I certainly didn't want that.

I use factory bats only now and feel much safer for it.



Perhaps this could explain the way the Braves have been playing?Robert

[Grandpas50AE]

I agree with White Eagle. And this question has been beat to death in enough threads you can do a search on to glean hundreds of different view-points on. Carry what you feel most comfortable with. I carry handloads that I have the velocity/bullet profile data for, and it is no more or less powerful or deadly than the factory standard offerings, just a lot less expensive to practice with and considerably more accurate/consistent in performance.

YMMV.

[popper]

I don't carry, so whatever knife, pan, bat etc. that close and handy or loaded in the clip will be what I use for SD. Except for that bulk 22LR, factory or my reloads go bang, cycle good and make a hole. Job done.

[Recluse]

I have mention this in another thread a while back that I would only carry Factory ammo not reloads as a concealed or open carry load. Where as it is not illegal to carry hand loads you must rember that a shooting incident goes in front of a Grand Jury for possible indictment. One question that can often be asked is "Why did you feel the need to load a more powerful round then you can buy?". This is whether it was loaded hotter or lighter the public may perceive you as a wacko looking to make someone explode.

[smilie=b:

It is precisely this kind of misinformation that does so many people a huge disservice.

Not all shootings, let alone SELF-DEFENSE shootings go in front a grand jury. There IS a process, actually, that generally affects whether or not such an incident is reviewed by a GJ.

Down here in Texas and Oklahoma and many other parts of the South, very few self-defense shootings go in front of a Grand Jury. When it is beyond obvious to the investigating officers, and written up correctly, the district attorney almost never, ever refers it to a Grand Jury.

Additionally, if you live in a state that has the Castle Doctrine, you can shoot a bad guy with an RPG and if it's a "good shoot" you are immune from prosecution.

Reloads versus factory loads is the equivalent of (made up above) defending yourself with a homemade baseball bat versus one you bought at Walmart.

:coffee:

[theperfessor]

Two things have convinced me to carry whatever shoots best in my gun, factory or hand load.

1. Read enough info to know that hand loads have never been an issue in court in a self defense shooting. In other words, Ayoob's full of bull on this issue.

2. A box of WW SilverTip ammo in .44 Special that had velocities from a little over 500 fps to over 800 fps from my 296 (see my avatar). I stopped shooting it after two cylinderfulls, afraid I'd stick a bullet in the bore. NONE of my hand loads have ever been that pitiful.

We should pay more attention to the laws governing the proper use of a gun, 'cause if it's a clean shoot the ammo won't matter, and if it's not the ammo won't matter either.

(Caveat: providing the ammo isn't of some prohibited sort or way-out-on-left-field stupid. Probably not going to help your case if you used a hand made tracer AP from your .380...)

[429421Cowboy]

I generally carry reloads in my SBH, .44 Special 240 Skeeter load, because i'm old enough to have a carry permit, but not old enough to buy handgun ammo. GO FIGURE. I also think the reload issue would be moot with Specials in a mag gun, and also is a SA revolver that is mainly carried for ranch work or woods carrywith SD from people being a secondary concern. I do carry Hornady XTP's in my M60 because we don't load .38's and i have seen good tests showing they will relyably expand through clothing.

[Dan Cash]

I'm curious what everyone uses as carry ammo for personal defense. Do you use reloads, cast or jacketed, and why?

Reloads. I make a better product.

[runfiverun]

i have to carry reloads i'm too poor to defend my self with the overpriced factory ammo.
not too sure how they would know the difference between a handloaded gold dot and a factory gold dot.
unless it was paper patched or had the nose filled with glue or something else equally as stupid.

[Bwana]

I have mention this in another thread a while back that I would only carry Factory ammo not reloads as a concealed or open carry load. Where as it is not illegal to carry hand loads you must rember that a shooting incident goes in front of a Grand Jury for possible indictment. One question that can often be asked is "Why did you feel the need to load a more powerful round then you can buy?". This is whether it was loaded hotter or lighter the public may perceive you as a wacko looking to make someone explode.
This shows that ignorance abounds. So let's get this straight; I am OK if I use 9mm +P+ factory at 1250fps, but, if I were to use my 9mm handloads which put a 125gr bullet out of my G19 at 1330fps I'm not OK. However, if I choose to carry my G32 with factory loads which put a 125gr out at 1350fps I'm good to go. "Go sell crazy some place else, we're full up around here."

[plow]

I use factory. The best argument I've heard in favor of factory is that in a courtroom situation the factory ammunition lot can be tested to back up claims ie. velocity relating to distance from target, etc. I have confidence in my reloads working as expected but that decided me on using factory for most defense purposes.

[Recluse]

I use factory. The best argument I've heard in favor of factory is that in a courtroom situation the factory ammunition lot can be tested to back up claims ie. velocity relating to distance from target, etc.

We have

:killingpc

met the enemy,

:killingpc

and

:killingpc

is is

:killingpc

us.

:killingpc


:coffee:

[white eagle]

I use factory. The best argument I've heard in favor of factory is that in a courtroom situation the factory ammunition lot can be tested to back up claims ie. velocity relating to distance from target, etc. I have confidence in my reloads working as expected but that decided me on using factory for most defense purposes.
HUH :holysheep

[mongo]

I dont think it really matters if you carry hand loads or factory. The facts that lead up to the incident would be more important to the GJ. If asked, Yep, I reload to save money on ammo and to have a more accurate round for target shooting.

[Texantothecore]

Any claims made about super loads can be thoroughly debunked with ballistic gelatin and Prosecutors know this.

There don't seem to be any citations that track back to a decision that involves this argument. None.

I doubt that there is any jury that would criticize someone for shooting with what was at hand, and that is the real question.

About the only criticism you'd get in Texas is using .45lc rather a .45-70.

[Texantothecore]

I might add this. My reloaded rounds are much, much more accurate and I prefer them over factory loads.

[MikeS]

... I have no CPL, so I am required to case unload,and uncase reload, everytime I enter or exit a vehicle. Repeated chamberings of the same round causes bullet setback, and thus, dangerous overpressure conditions. Im not buying expensive hollowpoints just to throw them out. Besides, I get better groups from my reloads.

If repeated chamberings is causing setback, then maybe there's something wrong with how you're chambering your ammo? Either that, or you have some really sad ammo (factory or otherwise) on your hands! I've never had ANY ammo setback no matter how many times I load or unload it from the chamber of any of my guns! That includes factory ammo, or my hand crafted cast boolit reloads.

[MikeS]

I have mention this in another thread a while back that I would only carry Factory ammo not reloads as a concealed or open carry load. Where as it is not illegal to carry hand loads you must rember that a shooting incident goes in front of a Grand Jury for possible indictment. One question that can often be asked is "Why did you feel the need to load a more powerful round then you can buy?". This is whether it was loaded hotter or lighter the public may perceive you as a wacko looking to make someone explode.

The idea that hand loads will be used against you if you should need to use them is another of those old wives tales that just won't die! There has NEVER been a case where somebody had to defend the use of handloads rather than factory ammo.

I carry lead boolit handloads that shoot a boolit with a very wide meplat, which should do lots of damage, possibly as much or more than a hollow point would do. Should the issue ever get raised in court, I could always point out how my ammo is solid, so less lethal than HP ammo, which would sit well with a jury, after all, everyone knows that HP ammo is deadlier than solid ammo! :) (and I have no need to explain things like hydrostatic shock to the jury, and the DA probably wouldn't have a clue about it either)

[mpmarty]

I carry rounds specifically designed for my 3" 45acp and marketed by the same folks who made the pistol and recommended by them for self defense. The fact that they are soldid copper flyin' ash trays from Barnes doesn't worry me in the least. My only worry would be if the DA asked why the perp who I shot was shot eleven times.

[MikeS]

Marty: The answer to that is simple "I was afraid for my life, so I just kept shooting til all I heard was the gun just clicking".

[Ozarklongshot]

O my!!
I not only carry my own reloads, but they're topped off with HOLLOW POINT boolits I cast myself. I must be the felonious type, a menace to society for sure :Fire::Fire:

It's been said here before but maybe we can overcome by repetition. For those that believe in the legal argument. Go find a case where this has ever been used, let alone successfully. It may be out there but many of us have looked over the years to no avail.
Just sayin...


Carry what your most comfortable with

[FromTheWoods]

Cast bullet reloads.

Doesn't make sense to tailor a load to my gun, reload and shoot thousands of rounds over a couple decades, and then go storebought just to carry a different cartridge for use in a life/death situation.

[Max Brand]

I carry my own reloads. The way I see it if they don't get the job done it's no ones fault but mine.

Max

[Bullet Caster]

I carry my own reloads for SD. I have, on the other hand, had bullets set back into the case after many reloadings into the chamber. I have a box of Black Tallons in .45acp and I've noticed that after a few times been in my chamber the bullet has been set back into the case. Before I knew this was dangerous, I simply went out and shot those that were set back. Now that happened to 8 out of 20 rounds. I put the other Black Tallons back into the package and have not used them in any magazines now. I'll just keep 'em for collectors items and if I ever got in a tight (WTSHTF) I'd use 'em then. So far I've racked several of my reloads into my chamber and ejected without shootin' 'em and I guess my crimp is heavier on my rounds than the factory ones and have experienced no set back with 'em. BC

[runfiverun]

easier to drop the first into the chamber, then drop the slide, then insert the magazine.

[Shooter6br]

My son is finishing law school. (Patent Law) His girlfriend is also but is going to work in crimial law. She was told that hollow point bullets are "cop killers" I told my son to educate her.
I saw a program on TV where a man stopped at a park only to have the town "crazy" charge at him with two large dogs. He told him to stop He did not. Shot him with a 10mm twice. The lawyer told the judge he wanted to kill the man since he had HP bullets. The judge did not buy it. The shooter still got 10 yrs in jail He was retired and age 65.. Moral .Lawyers will use anything to convict you true or not in some states.

[Sasquatch-1]

Those of you who wish to carry hand loads, do so I don't even have a carry permit. If I did I would not carry a hand load. I do not want to give the lawyers anymore of my money then I would have to.

As I said the point is not the law it is perception. You will be standing in front of a 20 or 30 member GJ trying to justify your actions. These are everyday people and chances are in a lot of areas many of them will not be gun lovers. A Grand Juror can ask any question they like and most have no legal training. I am just telling you what was related to me in the classes I have taken in the past and from personal experience in front of a Grand Jury. I was placing the info out there for the one who was asking the question so he had more info befor he makes his decision. Carry what you want.

Also, My original response was off a bit. Any shooting resulting in death must go befor a Grand Jury in the jurisdiction I worked which operated mostly under federal code.

[Reload3006]

It seems to me that this old argument will never be solved to the satisfaction of any side. However the argument that one loaded the most lethal round he could find hoping for the chance to kill an innocent victim can have the same argument he went to the weapon outlet and bought the most lethal round he could find hoping for the chance to kill or maim. Politicians Lawyers can spin anything they want. Personally as long as there is no specific law that forbids me from using the ammo I am most comfortable with and practiced with. My hand loads are what I am going to use.

[55BoysATR]

A lawyer does not have to be good at law or tell the complete truth.... he just has to win an arguement with a jury determining he is the winner.

I carry LE grade factory ammo. I'll save my reloads for practice. Any load (or caliber for that matter) is a compromise and can fail dependant on circumstances.

Choose whatever compromise (gun/ammo/holster/etc.) you are comfortable with and pray you are never forced to use it.

[Ole]

9mm and .380, I use factory ammo.

.44 Special, I use homemade reloads (200 grain Gold Dot) because the factory 44 special stuff isn't very spicy.

[Roundnoser]

The professor has a good point....If its a good shoot, then the type of bullet used isn't going to make any difference. A good shoot won't go to trial. IMO, your words can get you in bigger trouble than your ammo! -- Don't talk to the police...politely ask to speak with your lawyer. If it was a good shoot, the evidence will speak for itself.

Personally, I would carry handloads with a rapidly expanding bullet design (whichever worked reliably in my firearm). I would avoid FMJ's etc., as I would be more concerned with a pass through and some innocent person being hit. That would be the only way I could see how the ammunition might get called into question.

[EMC45]

A local shooting happened here in GA. A man was attacked at a big box hardware store with a hammer and he shot his assailant. The assailant went to the hospital, the shooter went to the house. No question of gun, ammo etc. He told the cop he was in fear for his life and that was it. I also carry handloads as well. I think this argument needs to die! This Ayoob boogy man has been around long enough.

[Judan_454]

I agree with most for the above points if it is a clean shoot it should'nt matter what kind of ammo you use, factory or roll your own. But even in a clean shoot the outcome is not a 100 % in the court room.

[Merlin1274]

I love the SC Castle Doctrine. I don't worry about this stuff. Plus like mentioned. If you were in the right then it will not matter what bullet was used.

[fcvan]

The agency I retired from trained us to 'shoot to disable or wound, rather than to kill' back in the '80s. When our deadly force policy changed in '99, we were taught to 'shoot to stop the threat.' That was a huge leap forward in protecting our officers. In a personal defense situation the shooter needs to be able to describe the threat perceived at moment you choose to employ deadly force.

Factory or reloads? Very old argument from the days when agencies reloaded their own practice ammo and carried the same ammo. The agencies then assumed the liability of the ammo as they were the manufacturer. Agencies later switched to using factory loads for carry and their own reloads for training. Again, the agency assumed the responsibility of officers not qualifying with the ammo they carried. Now, many agencies train and qualify with factory ammo to avoid this potential liability.

For the hand loader - loading and shooting and then carrying the same ammo, does not carry the same liability faced by an agency with deeper pockets. If asked, I can truthfully testify anyone can purchase that is arguably more deadly (i.e., faster, heavier, larger caliber, etc.) but I can't purchase more accurate ammo. My reloads are assembled from published data that does not exceed factory ballistics.

I load a lot, I shoot a lot, and am proficient with the ammo I assemble. Any attorney can attempt to make the argument your reloads were 'handcrafted instruments designed to cause death.' YOUR attorney should be competent enough to shut down that silly argument with the truth.

Your attorney should also be competent enough to ensure you don't let some anti gun, anti constitution, pro hug-a-thug types make it onto your jury panel. If you are sitting in front of a Grand Jury you won't have an attorney. You will be on your own to articulate the threat perceived before you chose to use deadly force. I suggest that everyone work that argument out before they drop the hammer. Frank

[Gohon]

You will be standing in front of a 20 or 30 member GJ trying to justify your actions.

I don't think so......a defendant has no legal right to testify at a Grand Jury unless invited by the prosecutor and then the defendant must waive their Miranda rights as lawyers aren't even allowed at a Grand Jury.

Don't know where you live but in my state the DA determines if charges are warranted in a shooting death. Even if a Grand Jury were called for, all they can do is determine if there is sufficient evidence to warrant charges and the DA will still be the one to decide to prosecute or not.

This old hand loads vs factory loads for self defense ranks right up there with hanging garlic around ones neck to scare away werewolves.

[RevGeo]

Cast handloads. But only because that's all I shoot. I haven't shot a factory round - or a jacketed bullet - in my revolver in a long time.

George

[Jammer Six]

Also, My original response was off a bit. Any shooting resulting in death must go befor a Grand Jury in the jurisdiction I worked which operated mostly under federal code.

I'd like to read a citation for that, please.

[mdi]

This is a silly arguement based solely on speculation. Would a person be prosecuted for using a 12 gauge rather than a 20 gauge? Show me one, just one person prosecuted for using handloads and I'll believe the "don't protect yourself with handloads" side, forever...

[44magLeo]

Garlic won't scare off werewolves, that's for vampires.
As far as what to carry. Ask your local LE and laywers.
Leo

[Jammer Six]

Just don't quote Ayoob. He's been exposed as giving false citations. Apparently he thought no one would follow them up.

[Jay]

I'm just a newbie here, and as such will just comment that for no more difference in cost than there is between handloads and factory "personal protection ammunition" added to the likelyhood of my having to defend myself with a firearm, I'll carry factory loads... and Mas Ayoob? Well, respectfully, here's a few to "follow up on"....

This is a post from Mas Ayoob at THR
---------------------------------------------------

Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court

As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.

As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.

NH v. Kennedy

James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver’s door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy’s Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.

The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5” barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”

She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.”

The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823

Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

TN v. Barnes

The decedent attacked Robert Barnes and his young daughter with a large knife and was shot to death by the defendant with SJHP .38 Special reloads from a Smith & Wesson Model 36. The distance between the two at the time of the shooting became a key element in the trial, and a misunderstanding of that distance was a primary reason he was charged with Murder. The evidence was messed up in a number of ways in this case, and I do not believe the reloaded ammo (which the prosecution did not recognize to be such until during the trial) was the key problem, but it definitely was part of a problem in reconstructing the case. We were able to do that without GSR evidence, and Mr. Barnes won an acquittal. In this case, I believe the use of factory ammo, combined with proper handling and preserving of the evidence by the initial investigators, would have made the defense much easier and might well have prevented the case from ever being lodged against him.

The records of TN v. Barnes are archived under case number 87297015 at:

Criminal Justice Center
201 Poplar
Suite 401
Memphis, TN 38103

Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems

A man attempted to disarm and murder Corporal Randy Willems of the Davenport, IA Police Department, screaming “Give me your (expletive deleted) gun, I’ll blow your (expletive deleted) brains out.” Willems shot him during the third disarming attempt, dropping him instantly with one hit to the abdomen from a department issue factory round, Fiocchi 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+. The subject survived and stated that the officer had shot him for nothing from a substantial distance away. GSR testing showed conclusively that the subject’s torso was approximately 18” from the muzzle of the issue Beretta 92 when it discharged. Randy was acquitted of criminal charges in the shooting at trial in 1990. Two years later, Randy and his department won the civil suit filed against them by the man who was shot.

I use this case when discussing handloads because it is a classic example of how the replicability of factory ammunition, in the forensic evidence sense, can annihilate false allegations by the “bad guy” against the “good guy” who shot him. The records of State of Iowa v. Corporal Randy Willems are archived in the Iowa District Court in Scott County, Davenport, Iowa. Those from the civil suit, Karwoski v. Willems and the City of Davenport, should be at the Iowa Civil Court of Scott County, also located in Davenport, Iowa.

A final word: I did not research the above and place it here to placate lightweight net ninjas. I did it because three recent Internet threads led me to believe that a number of decent people had honest questions about the real-world concerns about using handloads for self-defense, and were possibly putting themselves in jeopardy by doing so. For well over a decade, certain people have been creating an urban myth that says, “No one has ever gotten in trouble in court because they used handloads.”

This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob

Source - http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....&postcount=140

[soldierbilly1]

I use only factory baseball bats now to defend myself. Several years ago I stopped using my homemade Hickory baseball bat I made in shop in High School circa 1963.

I read using my custom bat could get me in legal troubles as the bat could be said to have been made to be "extra" powerful and I certainly didn't want that.

I use factory bats only now and feel much safer for it.

KU:
dude, did you put lead in that bat?:drinks:

bill boy

[Texantothecore]

Well.. living in Texas I am not going to worry too much about it. I will use the rounds that I trust, see and feel and those are reloads.

1. These are all old cases during a time when the majority of the population was in favor of more gun control and I wonder how the attitude of juries has changed over the years. I suspect that in a crisis situation the jury would disregard the reloads entirely (shoot what is in the gun).
2. There is an assumption here that Bias was innocent. I don't think he was.
3. The other two cases would have been declined by the Prosecutor for prosecution in Texas.

[Jammer Six]

Yup. That's the post Ayoob cut his own throat in. Thank you for posting it.

The one legal citation he gives does not lead to the case he claims it leads to.

He gave a false legal citation, and apparently thought no one would follow it up.

[AR-15 Cowboy]

I use factory because I carry a NAA .22 mag derringer. But if I could reload them I would. I use the Hornady .22 Mag.Personal Defense round.

[theperfessor]

The factories make ammo with non-canister grade powders and they adjust both powder quantities and powder types to get the ballistic performance they want within the pressure limitations of the cartridge in question. There is no guarantee that two otherwise identical factory rounds would leave the same GSR if they came from different batches.I would think that a technically competent defense attorney would make a point of this if the prosecution depended on GSR for a major part of their case.

[Charley]

This one never dies, just goes on and on and on...
I'm not an attorney, not an LEO. My contact with the legal system is either sitting on petit juries, or as a defendant in a couple of civil suits, and as a witness in a couple of others. Criminal prosecution is not likey to be an issue, IF you used deadly force judiciously. If you are in a state that doesn't shield you from civil action in the case of a justified deadly force incident, plaintiff's attorney doesn't care what is right, doesn't care you might have been killed by the plaintiff, doesn't care you had to use deadly force to protect yourself or someone under your protection. He wants to WIN. He will use ANY tactic or opening he can, including your use of handloaded ammunition. Remember, most people have no idea about handloading...Hell, most of them have no idea about firearms, for that matter. They can be convinced of almost anything. Why give a possible opening to the slimeball?
That said, I carry my handloads in the field while working my property. I'm not going to call time out if I'm attacked to switch to factory ammo. My dedicated carry guns do have factory ammo.
Use what you want, your decision.

[dubber123]

Handloads. I KNOW there is powder in mine. Yes I have had factory ammo without.

[Jammer Six]

Why give a possible opening to the slimeball

Because the value of fighting like you train and training like you fight outweighs anything he can do with an opening.

[Casper29]

I carry cast hollow points in my 40, 9mm, 380 and 357mag, I can't see paying $30.00 a box for self defense ammo. As far as for the courts they frown on reloads because the attorneys always claim that we load them to hot, shows they do not know about reloading, I belive that a good defense attorney could argue for you that following the load data in the hands books is lighter or close to factory loads.

[shotstring]

I think this is one of those cases where common sense should/will prevail provided the shooter's defense isn't totally incompetent. The truth is, some of the factory ammunition available or no longer available is capable of putting the shooter in a worse spot than normal factory spec reloaded ammunition.

There are certain kinds of factory ammunition that practically give the anti gun folks heart attacks, and these ammunition brands change all the time, depending on what is the latest scare story they subscribe to. There was a time when anyone caught using "Black Talon" ammunition would be up against it if he had to explain its use to a manipulating and unsympathetic prosecutor and/or jury. Same with the old factory teflon coated bullets which actually did nothing that normal factory ammunition wouldn't do.

Good handloads are every bit as reliable as factory loads and are far more accurate if the reloader did his job. My 45ACP reloads will group almost in the same hole at 50 feet, but factory Federal or Remington rounds open up that group considerably. So the argument can be made that reloaded ammunition, being more accurate, will protect the public from bullets that just miss the body of the attacker.

Common sense. If we don't subscribe to it and sell it, how do we expect this country ever to re-subscribe?

Of course, if someone insists on using reloaded ammunition that is a teflon coated hollow point with a mixture of mercury and arsenic filling up the cavity in the bullet and driven at velocities that threaten to blow their gun apart, they can expect to get some grief using it for self defense. But then, we all knew that.

[heavyd]

[smilie=b:

It is precisely this kind of misinformation that does so many people a huge disservice.

Not all shootings, let alone SELF-DEFENSE shootings go in front a grand jury. There IS a process, actually, that generally affects whether or not such an incident is reviewed by a GJ.

Down here in Texas and Oklahoma and many other parts of the South, very few self-defense shootings go in front of a Grand Jury. When it is beyond obvious to the investigating officers, and written up correctly, the district attorney almost never, ever refers it to a Grand Jury.

Additionally, if you live in a state that has the Castle Doctrine, you can shoot a bad guy with an RPG and if it's a "good shoot" you are immune from prosecution.

Reloads versus factory loads is the equivalent of (made up above) defending yourself with a homemade baseball bat versus one you bought at Walmart.

:coffee:

You may be immune from criminal prosecution but not from a civil suit. It's pretty easy to get around the immunity statutes in civil court. Defending yourself with carry ammo vs. reloads is NOT the same as a homemade baseball bat vs. a Walmart bat.

[ku4hx]

You may be immune from criminal prosecution but not from a civil suit. It's pretty easy to get around the immunity statutes in civil court. Defending yourself with carry ammo vs. reloads is NOT the same as a homemade baseball bat vs. a Walmart bat.

Uh, not necessarily so. In my home state, a "Castle Clause" state, you as the shooter in legitimately protecting yourself (and/or your family) are immune from all prosecutions resulting from your self protective action. i.e. the family of the perp is barred from filing ANY type lawsuit against you. That particular law has been tested and upheld on numerous occasions.

I can't speak for other states, but we like our state and we'll be staying here for a variety of reasons. Full "Castle Clause" provisions being one reason among many.

[ku4hx]

KU:
dude, did you put lead in that bat?:drinks:

bill boy

You ask a very interesting question. Actually I made two bats: a full size for actually playing the game and a smaller one about 18"-20" long. I don't remember it's exact length.

The smaller bat I did drill a 1/2" hole about 8"-10" into the fat end and I did in fact fill that hole with lead ... melted sinkers I believe. It was mostly a joke (can't tell you here what a friend of mine called it) and it really wasn't good for much of anything. One day swinging it I launched the lead rod into the next block; never expected that to happen. That was the end of my first homemade "weapon" making phase.

I also made a "marble canon" from a 10" length of 1" pipe, a "T" and two threaded plugs. Using a "Cherry Bomb as the propellant I could put marbles into orbit. Made the neatest straight line holes in Pecan tree leaves. My mom thought we had some kind of deranged leaf borer worm. I stopped my "weapon experiments" shortly after she questioned the weird leaf hole patterns.

[heavyd]

Uh, not necessarily so. In my home state, a "Castle Clause" state, you as the shooter in legitimately protecting yourself (and/or your family) are immune from all prosecutions resulting from your self protective action. i.e. the family of the perp is barred from filing ANY type lawsuit against you. That particular law has been tested and upheld on numerous occasions.

I can't speak for other states, but we like our state and we'll be staying here for a variety of reasons. Full "Castle Clause" provisions being one reason among many.

So if you shot a man in self defense and your bullet penetrated and hit an innocent 3rd party you would be immune? I think not.

[Bwana]

So if you shot a man in self defense and your bullet penetrated and hit an innocent 3rd party you would be immune? I think not.

While he may have worded it incorrectly, you know that's not what he meant. However, that is a good question. Living in a state with the same type laws it would be interesting and useful to know the answer to your proposition.

[MT Gianni]

Either one, I do no leave my home with the intent to shoot someone so I carry what I have in my gun.

[Char-Gar]

I am amazed or rather dismayed that this factory load vs. handload nonsense continues to pop up on this and other sites. It reminds me of a very bad horror movie where the monster keeps coming back to life.

[ku4hx]

So if you shot a man in self defense and your bullet penetrated and hit an innocent 3rd party you would be immune? I think not.

Nope, didn't say that. My comment was solely about the the shooter, damage to the the perpetrator and the perp's family's lack of legal recourse. But if you really need to understand the full extent of the law in all its legal language splendor, the law is a matter of public record and you are free to research it all you wish during normal government business hours.

End.

[Max Brand]

Uh, not necessarily so. In my home state, a "Castle Clause" state, you as the shooter in legitimately protecting yourself (and/or your family) are immune from all prosecutions resulting from your self protective action. i.e. the family of the perp is barred from filing ANY type lawsuit against you. That particular law has been tested and upheld on numerous occasions.

I can't speak for other states, but we like our state and we'll be staying here for a variety of reasons. Full "Castle Clause" provisions being one reason among many.

Looks like Georgia has it right!

[Jammer Six]

That's what I like to see! Law advice from Skeeter & Booger's Excellent Law Practice And Bait Shop!

[heavyd]

Nope, didn't say that. My comment was solely about the the shooter, damage to the the perpetrator and the perp's family's lack of legal recourse. But if you really need to understand the full extent of the law in all its legal language splendor, the law is a matter of public record and you are free to research it all you wish during normal government business hours.

End.

Been there doing that. I know Georgia law very well. Law school has shown me there are many ways to skin a cat. I don't care what the immunity statutes say, a lawyer can make your life hell if he wants to or if he is paid enough. Say, for instance, you kill a crack addict teen who broke into your house with his cracked out buddies. Well, happens to be that crack addict teen has a daddy who is CFO for General Electric. Good chance his dad will shell out plenty of cash to pursue a wrongful death case. The way the law works is, regardless of the statute, an attorney can file a lawsuit for any reason. A good attorney can word a complaint well enough to avoid a 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss. Then, you get into discovery. This can go on for years. Often times it takes 3-4 year to get on the civil court docket. Defending yourself through this process can cost you an arm and a leg, to say the least.

My opinion on this matter, as well as the opinion of every attorney I have spoken to regarding this subject, is buy quality self-defense ammo. Is it worth a $25 box of ammo to save yourself possible legal issues? Hell yes!

[Jammer Six]

Is it worth a $25 box of ammo to save yourself possible legal issues? Hell yes!
$25 isn't all you're paying.

If you train one way and fight another, you may not make it to civil court.

[heavyd]

$25 isn't all you're paying.

If you train one way and fight another, you may not make it to civil court.

I agree with you if you don't get adequate training and practice. I reload, so I don't buy carry ammo to practice with. My reloads emulate carry ammo.

[Bret4207]

Those of you who wish to carry hand loads, do so I don't even have a carry permit. If I did I would not carry a hand load. I do not want to give the lawyers anymore of my money then I would have to.

As I said the point is not the law it is perception. You will be standing in front of a 20 or 30 member GJ trying to justify your actions. These are everyday people and chances are in a lot of areas many of them will not be gun lovers. A Grand Juror can ask any question they like and most have no legal training. I am just telling you what was related to me in the classes I have taken in the past and from personal experience in front of a Grand Jury. I was placing the info out there for the one who was asking the question so he had more info befor he makes his decision. Carry what you want.

Also, My original response was off a bit. Any shooting resulting in death must go befor a Grand Jury in the jurisdiction I worked which operated mostly under federal code.

Ummmm, the defendant never goes in front of the Gran Jury where I live. The Grand Jury is convened to determine if enough facts are present in the case to bring it to trial. The shooter, in this case, would never appear give testimony in a GJ Hearing, only the investigating officers, witnesses, maybe some experts. Even at trial the Jury doesn't get to ask the shooter questions unless he agrees to take the stand. I'm not clear on what you're trying to say I guess.

[Bret4207]

I carry cast hollow points in my 40, 9mm, 380 and 357mag, I can't see paying $30.00 a box for self defense ammo. As far as for the courts they frown on reloads because the attorneys always claim that we load them to hot, shows they do not know about reloading, I belive that a good defense attorney could argue for you that following the load data in the hands books is lighter or close to factory loads.

With respect, this isn't true. The facts to back up the claim that "...attorneys always claim that we load them to hot..." simply doesn't exist. It's something that has come up occasionally, but it's not the fact that Ayoob would like it to be.

Carry what you want. 99.9% of us will never have to use it anyways.

[Gohon]

You may be immune from criminal prosecution but not from a civil suit.

That's not true in my state of Oklahoma. When one is involved in a shooting, regardless of the outcome, the officer on the scene will make a determination if any laws were broken by the shooter. If none then the on scene officer can't even confiscate your gun. The police chief will make a review and then pass the report to the DA. If the DA determines it was a legal shoot then no one and I mean no one by law can bring any kind of suit against you, civil or criminal. Not only is the castle doctrine in full force in this state but the no retreat law exist which means if one is on the streets and is a legal CCW holder and is involved in a shooting which is judged legal the same rules apply as the castle doctrine. Being a bad guy in Oklahoma and Texas is a very risky occupation.

[Jammer Six]

That's not true in my state of Oklahoma. When one is involved in a shooting, regardless of the outcome, the officer on the scene will make a determination if any laws were broken by the shooter. If none then the on scene officer can't even confiscate your gun. The police chief will make a review and then pass the report to the DA. If the DA determines it was a legal shoot then no one and I mean no one by law can bring any kind of suit against you, civil or criminal. Not only is the castle doctrine in full force in this state but the no retreat law exist which means if one is on the streets and is a legal CCW holder and is involved in a shooting which is judged legal the same rules apply as the castle doctrine. Being a bad guy in Oklahoma and Texas is a very risky occupation.

I'd like to read the statute on that, please.

Do you have a citation?

[357Mag]

LeaD-


Howdy !

Factory ammo. It's a legality thang, in this litigious age.

Regards,
357Mag

[Gohon]

TITLE 21 § 1289.25 PHYSICAL OR DEADLY FORCE AGAINST INTRUDER
A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes or places of business.
B. A person or a owner, manager or employee of a business is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
1. The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle,
30
or a place of business, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against the will of that person from the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business; and
2. The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
C. The presumption set forth in subsection B of this section does not apply if:
1. The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not a protective order from domestic violence in effect or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person;
2. The person or persons sought to be removed are children or grandchildren, or are otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
3. The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business to further an unlawful activity.
D. A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
E. A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle of another person, or a place of business is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
F. A person who uses force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of subsections B and D of this section, is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes charging or prosecuting the defendant.
G. [A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force, but the law enforcement agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.[/B]
H. The court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection F of this section.
I. The provisions of this section and the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act shall not be construed to require any person using a pistol pursuant to the provisions of this section to be licensed in any manner.
J. As used in this section:
1. “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people;
2. “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest; and
3. “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to trtransport people or property.

http://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/SDA_Lawbook_NOV_2011.pdf

[Jammer Six]

Thanks!

That's a great law.

For the record, though, if I pay an attorney by the hour, I can still file a suit against you.

Point one, the suit will probably be dismissed if it ever makes it to court. Point two, I won't, for that reason, be able to find an attorney who will take the case for a cut, I'll have to pay him by the hour. Point three, I'll probably end up paying your attorney fees, if you hire an attorney bright enough to counter sue.

But, point four, until we settle or go to court, you're going to need an attorney, because you can sue anyone for anything.

And you'll probably have to pay that attorney until we go to court, because going to court is the way we determine if your shooting met the conditions laid out in the statute.

And nothing is certain when one goes to court.

I appreciate the citation.

[Bret4207]

Gohon, the whole key to that law seems to rest in "D. A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked..." and most of that is covered in section C. The caveats I see are that you need to know what they mean by "attacked" and what they consider "a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm", and that you make sure you aren't breaking another law when applying this one. I've seen how the law can be twisted, or is sometimes even designed to be twisted. This is something I'd research if I lived in your State.

[Gohon]

because going to court is the way we determine if your shooting met the conditions laid out in the statute.

Wrong........the District Attorney in this state makes the determination if a shooting was justified or not. If he/she determines the act was justified the the word immune takes full force. A sitting judge couldn't even if they wanted to allow the suit get past the clerks desk.

Bret, I think I look at this a little differently than you. Section G will be the first step in determining if your actions were lawful or unlawful. If the latter is determined to be the case then the DA's action of criminal charges will cancel out Section D. If the DA determines you were lawful the Section D is upheld in your favor. At the same time if the DA decides one is not within the boundaries of Section D then Section F becomes void from protection. As for the word attacked, which is defined as "to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon", is pretty much supported by other words and phrases in the statute. The courts have already set the precedence that the words "reasonable believes" means what the average citizen would think.

Bottom line is people here don't go around shooting at every shadow or bad looking guy but our laws give us a lot more protection from the bad guys than most states and we don't have to worry about some freeloading internet lawyer running down and filing a law suit just because it is fashionable.

[heavyd]

Thanks!

That's a great law.

For the record, though, if I pay an attorney by the hour, I can still file a suit against you.

Point one, the suit will probably be dismissed if it ever makes it to court. Point two, I won't, for that reason, be able to find an attorney who will take the case for a cut, I'll have to pay him by the hour. Point three, I'll probably end up paying your attorney fees, if you hire an attorney bright enough to counter sue.

But, point four, until we settle or go to court, you're going to need an attorney, because you can sue anyone for anything.

And you'll probably have to pay that attorney until we go to court, because going to court is the way we determine if your shooting met the conditions laid out in the statute.

And nothing is certain when one goes to court.

I appreciate the citation.

You are exactly right about most of that, Jammer. People think they will be immune from prosecution. No one is immune. If you pay a lawyer he can file a lawsuit. Yes, it may be dismissed but a lawyer can make your life hell for a while. As for the attorney's fees, a defendant in such a case will generally never counter sue for them. The reason is the defendant bears the burden of showing the lawsuit was frivolous and there was no reasonable means of recovery. This is a tough burden to meet and nearly impossible against a complaint that was written well.

Remember guys, you are not immune!

[Jammer Six]

For that matter, one doesn't need an attorney simply to file a lawsuit, one merely needs a form book.

File the form, pay the server to serve the papers, and the ball starts rolling.

[Jammer Six]

Wrong........the District Attorney in this state makes the determination if a shooting was justified or not.

There is no DA involved if I file a lawsuit against you. There is just a clerk and a professional process server.

Then you need an attorney.

[mpmarty]

So the bottom line is don't shoot any more attorneys.

[Gohon]

Jammer, what is it about the word immune that you don't understand. The DA in this state is part of the equation because if he declares you lawful then you are immune by state law and no judge would allow it in their court....they can't...they are bound by state law period and will be dismissed presumptively. Sure you can go down and ask a attorney to file a suit but he would just laugh at you because he can't get it into court. Our low works because the clause establishes a rule under which the civil judge will examine the evidence upon receipt of of civil immunity, and if a preponderance of the evidence indicates that the shooting was justified under the law, will prevent the civil suit from proceeding. It won't make it into court and lawyers in this state know it.

Now you can sit up there in Washington and try to convince everyone how smart you are on the laws of their state but the fact is you don't know what you're talking about. Like I said, Internet lawyers....their a dime a dozen.

[waksupi]

That is what is known as a dung beetle. You know what happens to them here.

[Jammer Six]

This type of disagreement and misunderstanding is exactly why we will always have attorneys. :D

[Bret4207]

Bret, I think I look at this a little differently than you. Section G will be the first step in determining if your actions were lawful or unlawful. If the latter is determined to be the case then the DA's action of criminal charges will cancel out Section D. If the DA determines you were lawful the Section D is upheld in your favor. At the same time if the DA decides one is not within the boundaries of Section D then Section F becomes void from protection. As for the word attacked, which is defined as "to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon", is pretty much supported by other words and phrases in the statute. The courts have already set the precedence that the words "reasonable believes" means what the average citizen would think.

Bottom line is people here don't go around shooting at every shadow or bad looking guy but our laws give us a lot more protection from the bad guys than most states and we don't have to worry about some freeloading internet lawyer running down and filing a law suit just because it is fashionable.

That's pretty much what I meant. As long as you research the definitions of "attacked" for instance, and you have to look at your state laws collection of definitions, not a dictionary definition, you should be fine. Most lay people don't realize the Legislature and Courts establish exact definitions of what words mean that may come into question.

[XWrench3]

i run both, depending on the pistol. in my 45, there is enough stopping power already, so i just use factory ammo. in the 40 S&W, i use hand loaded silvertip bullets, right at the maximum charge. in my 380"s, i use a mix. thru testing, i have discovered that my cast 108 g wheel weight alloy, swc bullets penetrate better than even fmj rounds loaded with more powder. so, i run a mix of those, and jhp factory loads. my wife's 38 spl gets hand loaded 125g jhp's for it.

[Lead Freak]

I am amazed or rather dismayed that this factory load vs. handload nonsense continues to pop up on this and other sites. It reminds me of a very bad horror movie where the monster keeps coming back to life.

When I posted the original question, I wasn't thinking about the legal issues. I was more interested in the reliability/effectiveness of either factory or hand loads. Interesting posts concerning possible legal issues, however I believe I will carry the most reliable and effective load that I can.

[MikeS]

As an illustration of how twisted laws and lawyers can get, and a good way of tying this thread back into this forum, if a member here is carrying handloads, rather than factory loads, and has to defend themselves, the perp might be unable to sue for the actual act of getting shot, but because the person used their carefully crafted cast boolit rather than some factory self defense load that's loaded with the latest solid copper HP bullet, the creep will sue for attempted lead poisoning! Sounds crazy, but I could see something like that happening. Of course it would be easy to defend, but the point is that you would still have to defend yourself against that silly law suit, and that means having to hire a lawyer, and spend lots money to do it!

I guess the advice I once heard, "If you have to shoot somebody, make sure they're dead" isn't as silly as it sounds.

[Gohon]

When I posted the original question, I wasn't thinking about the legal issues. I was more interested in the reliability/effectiveness of either factory or hand loads. Interesting posts concerning possible legal issues, however I believe I will carry the most reliable and effective load that I can.

These kind of topics do sometimes get a little sidetracked and off topic but generally work themselves back to the original question. I've been casting and loading my own for 30 plus years now and pretty much shoot cast lead in all my guns now. However, I have made my share of booboo's in my reloading adventures. It has always been one of those that begs the question just how in the heck did I manage to do that. Still, I trust my reloads 100% but I trust factory loads even more for self defense. For this reason my carry loads are all factory loads. Right now my choice for carry and self defense are the Hornady Self Defense loads. As you said, carry the most effective and reliable load you can and most importantly, the one you trust.

This old debate about hand loads vs factory loads should never enter the picture when you're protecting you own or a loved ones life. You only get one shot at life and maybe only one shot at continuing that life. The old saying that it is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six has merit.

[Char-Gar]

For the record:

The Castle Laws in most states (like Texas where I live) does give immunity from civil liability, IF the shooting meets the standards of the Castle Law.

There seems to be some confusion about just what "immunity" means. This does not mean somebody can't file a civil lawsuit. It does mean that the Castle Law creates and "affirmative defense".

An "affirmative defense" to a civil suit, means, if the defense is proven, it will defeat the original cause of action in the suit. However, the burden of proof will fall on the defendant/respondent in the suit, to prove his/her actions fell under the Castle Law and it's immunity.

So immunity doesn't prevent the law suit from being filed. It can defeat and law suit, if alleged as an affirmative defense and proven to a judge or jury.

I am not guessing at this stuff. I teach it at the Univ. of Texas. I am teaching a course in Civil Litigation right now.

BTW..The factory loads vs. hand loads have zero to do with criminal or civil liability. It is a totaly bogus issue and should be banned from this Board. The OP was talking about reliability anyway and not the legal issues.

[Char-Gar]

This type of disagreement and misunderstanding is exactly why we will always have attorneys. :D

Attorney's do not write these laws. They are passed by various legislative bodies who are very political. They respond to pressure from the voters. So, the responsibility rests on "We the people", who put them in office, write them letters, send them emails and make phone calls.

Attorneys have to straighten out the mess created by legislative bodies and apply it to human lives who are also doing their human thing. Lawyers are like the guys with shovels and trash cans that come along behind the equestrian units in a parade and clean up the mess.

It is popular to blame lawyers for the screwed up mess of our legal system, but we need to take a hard and unpredjuiced look at just who the "screwors" are.

[Char-Gar]

Gahon.. In Texas, where I live, the Police and DA will not decline a case that involves a fatal shooting. The police may not make an arrest and the DA mayh not file charges, but the case will be taken to a Grand Jury for their consideration. It it is a righteous shooting on it's face, the DA will recommend the Grand Jury return a "No Bill", but the final decision will rest with the Grand Jury. That is how finality and closure is brought to these things and there are some good reasons for doing it that way.

[Gohon]

Char-Gar, thanks for the information. As you know the laws regarding taking something to a grand jury vary considerably from State to State. My understanding is that here in Oklahoma the DA has the discretion on that matter. However, the Perpetrator or his family can petition for a grand jury but lots of luck with that. There is also the chance a Prosecutor in order to distance himself will still send a politically sensitive case to the Grand Jury even if he finds in favor of the defendant. I guess that keeps his hands clean and his job secure.

[bravokilo]

Attorneys have to straighten out the mess created by legislative bodies and apply it to human lives who are also doing their human thing. Lawyers are like the guys with shovels and trash cans that come along behind the equestrian units in a parade and clean up the mess.

It is popular to blame lawyers for the screwed up mess of our legal system, but we need to take a hard and unpredjuiced look at just who the "screwors" are.



HUH?? Could somebody please tell me what percentage of politicians (Fed & State) hold a law degree? It is not so easy to separate the politicians from the lawyers! I have long held the opinion that politicians write about 50% of the laws just to make "busy work" for their fellow lawyers. There ain't no other way to explain some the silly arsed laws we have!

BK

[Texantothecore]

As an illustration of how twisted laws and lawyers can get, and a good way of tying this thread back into this forum, if a member here is carrying handloads, rather than factory loads, and has to defend themselves, the perp might be unable to sue for the actual act of getting shot, but because the person used their carefully crafted cast boolit rather than some factory self defense load that's loaded with the latest solid copper HP bullet, the creep will sue for attempted lead poisoning! Sounds crazy, but I could see something like that happening. Of course it would be easy to defend, but the point is that you would still have to defend yourself against that silly law suit, and that means having to hire a lawyer, and spend lots money to do it!

I guess the advice I once heard, "If you have to shoot somebody, make sure they're dead" isn't as silly as it sounds.

Probably would have a tough time proving lead poisoning if you used Alox. Lead oxide would be minimal to non existent on the bullet. Metallic lead is not poisonous.

[Char-Gar]

HUH?? Could somebody please tell me what percentage of politicians (Fed & State) hold a law degree? It is not so easy to separate the politicians from the lawyers! I have long held the opinion that politicians write about 50% of the laws just to make "busy work" for their fellow lawyers. There ain't no other way to explain some the silly arsed laws we have!

BK

I don't know what the percentage of politicians are lawyers. My Congressman is not a lawyer, neither is my Mayor, County Comissioner, City Counselman, State Representative, State Senator or Governor. So, I have no lawyers representing me.

If you don't like Lawyers in public office then don't vote for them.

[Jammer Six]

It is popular to blame lawyers for the screwed up mess of our legal system, but we need to take a hard and unpredjuiced look at just who the "screwors" are.

You misunderstand me.

We'll always have attorneys for exactly the same reasons we'll always have cops-- because when the population is more than about three, we can't get along without them, and there's always some fool that thinks the way a law is written protects him.

On a completely different subject, in that lifeboat-desperate-end-of-civilization situation that they like to give to college philosophy freshmen, everyone likes to think about immediate needs when picking skills for the folks in the lifeboat.

Longterm, I say we're going to need an attorney.

[mpmarty]

Cuss and swear all you want at attorneys, if I ever have to shoot someone I'm calling the meanest SOB attorney I can find and letting him do the talking.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

You shoot somebody in defense of yourself or others. The Grand Jury votes a "No True Bill of Indictment". That means the shooting was justified under your current state laws. No criminal charges can be filed.

Then the perp gets some scrote lawyer, and you are in civil court.

Your answer when he asks you why you carry your own loaded ammunition instead of factory like law enforcement officers do is...?

note: your answer determines whether or not a civil judgment for everything you own happens.

This question was asked earlier today to our city attorney. I'll post his legal opinion tomorrow.

Rich