Invert Gas Check or Not??

[VTDW]

A fellow member here is sending me a .44 cal mold to try out. It is a flat based boolit. I wanna push it hard in one of my .444s so I plan on inverting a Hornady .44 cal. gas check and shooting the boolits that way. Anything here to get me in trouble or to cause missing digits?:-?

Dave

[Bullshop]

Shield you chronograph!
BIC/BS

[Ricochet]

I suspect a card against the base of the boolit would work about as well.

[DLCTEX]

Of course don't seat the boolit deep enough to let the check fall into the case. Just stating the obvious, but it may not be obvious to a noobie. Dale:Fire:

[Ricochet]

A .444 shouldn't have that problem. It's about as straight a case as they come.

[VTDW]

The gurus have spoken and blessed this upcoming event.:drinks:

Thanks,

Dave

[grumpy one]

I have a warning to utter as usual. The inverted gas check will form a cup facing toward the high gas pressure. This will obturate very early, and cause the lip part to be pressed against the bore with the full gas pressure, like a leather cup seal. Under these circumstances the copper, brass or gilding metal of the gas check will flow like water and probably weld to the interior of the barrel. I don't know what will happen after that, except I think the gas check will just be a flat disk after a couple of inches movement down the barrel - the rim will be gone. The flat disk probably won't protect the critically important outer edge of the bullet base very well. Then you will have the interesting task of removing the cuprous material from the rearmost part of the bore. If you've fired more than one of these things by that time, the behaviour of the subsequent shots might deteriorate due to the fouling in the breech-end of the bore.

[Char-Gar]

VTDW... In the Days of Yore, it was not uncommon to stick an upside down gas ehck on the bottom of a plain base bullet and let fly. I stuck some upside down gas checks on the base of good old 330 grain Gould hollow point with Duco Household Cement and fired them over stiff charges of 4895 in my Winchester 86 45-70. The years as about 1961 and I fired several hundred of them with no ill effect and decent accuracy.

That was my experience, but you are on your own.

[Glen]

Chargar -- Ah yes, DUCO Household Cement, I used to use tons of that stuff when I was a kid (building model rockets). It would be perfect for the inverted GC application.

grumpy one -- I doubt that the inverted GC will weld to the barrel. It most certainly will obturate as you say (which is a good thing), but I don't think it will stick. Hollow base lead bullets have been around for a long time, and lead is much weaker than gilding metal, and the lead "lips" of the HB bullets don't break off and stick to the barrel. I think he'll be OK.

[Bass Ackward]

I have shot a bunch of them myself years ago. The only real problem is loading them in the case. I would rather just use a wad. What happens is that you end up having to bell your cases more than you need for the bullet alone to get all the checks to fit in as they all have a different flair. This can destroy the case neck tension or bullet alignment. And now you can add the check cost on top of that.

A plain wad will do the same thing, maybe better, and avoid these problems. Or you can get creative and use a wad first and some plastic shot buffer between it and the bullet. The wad will keep the PSB and the powder separate. You can add as much of it to make as long a column as you want / need. It acts like a shock absorber while it is compacting under pressure to start the bullet off softer. I have used PB like this to over 2000 fps. But this too is a PIA and more expensive.

Better to get a good GC design if you want to put the smack behind them and you want to spend more time shootin .... than reloadin. Or PM Bob, (45 2.1) about his Aluminum GC process for PB designs I believe he calls Free Checks. He is very fond of and a promoter of that technique.

[44man]

Years ago I made a tool to punch a hole in gas checks so I could put one in the mold at different drive bands, mostly the top one, and pour through it. Made nice boolits but the check was not on the base. They did shoot very well. If there was a way to get these flat at the top of the mold, they would work but I never tried it. I have often wondered how fast a boolit could be shot with a check on a drive band instead of the base. They do prevent skidding!
Here is the simple punch and a .44 boolit with a pure lead nose.

[HORNET]

Dang, 44man. Those look just about like the old Wilk checks, first cousin of the Barnes Driving Band. Never played with them personally but the old Handloader articles on them claimed that they could reach full j-bullet velocities in 30-06 with good accuracy.

[uscra112]

HHMMmmm - I'm glad I read this thread. Banded boolits in fast twist barls might be just the thing to get better velocity. Wonder if my 6.5 Krag would like them? So many projects - so little time!

The upside down GC is likely to make the boolit tip as it exits the bore. It may well act just like a ragged base. If so, it cannot do anything good for accuracy, but hey, it's a cheap experiment, so fire off a few and see what happens.:-D

I like the idea of the perforated GC cast right in better.

[Parson]

Dang, 44man. Those look just about like the old Wilk checks, first cousin of the Barnes Driving Band. Never played with them personally but the old Handloader articles on them claimed that they could reach full j-bullet velocities in 30-06 with good accuracy.

Very similar to the old Wilks checks. Another advantage with the Wilks style is holding the bullet together if you hit something like heavey bone. I used to cast them for a 458 Winchester with the check at the first band, no matter what was shot, even if the nose came off the rear would drive through like a solid

[DLCTEX]

44 man: that ring reminds me of the brass rings on an 8" howitzer round. When we were firing the 155's the 8" were set up behind us, and you could hear the brass rings whishing through the air overhead, made me want to duck. Dale

[drinks]

VTDW;
For sure, shield your chrono, my 3 ply lexan shield has 3 gas checks in it from crimped on checks, let alone ones just stuck in the case backwards.
I really do not understand why you plan to push plain base bullets of unknown BHN.
Why not just use them for low velocity target practice loads and get a mold for a gas check bullet intended for higher velocities?

[VTDW]

VTDW;
For sure, shield your chrono, my 3 ply lexan shield has 3 gas checks in it from crimped on checks, let alone ones just stuck in the case backwards.
I really do not understand why you plan to push plain base bullets of unknown BHN.
Why not just use them for low velocity target practice loads and get a mold for a gas check bullet intended for higher velocities?

Good comments. I am taking the mold on a trade. It is a 200 gr. mold that drops the size I want/need for my .444s. Most drop undersized for what I need. I shoot 280 gr GC boolits exclusively in my .444s and .44 Mag. I found yesterday that it is easy to invert a check and seat the 280 gr boolit. I then pulled the boolit and the check was still at seating depth and tight in the brass. I do know the BHN of the boolits I will be casting as I am the one in control of that. I wanna see how fast the .444 will shoot the 200 gr boolit. If I like the results I will purchase a mold with a gas check as I think there is a group buy going on right now.

Maybe my buddy will let me use HIS chrony.:mrgreen:

Dave

[Ricochet]

If I like the results I will purchase a mold with a gas check as I think there is a group buy going on right now.
Isn't that group buy at "Last Call" status now?

[Bigscot]

Isn't that group buy at "Last Call" status now?

I believe that is the plain base right now and the gc is coming up. I am watching that one as I want the one with the gc.

Bigscot

[BAGTIC]

The gas check will not weld to the bore but what is the purpose of the gas check? Why not just shoot it plain?

[44man]

I see no use for an inverted, loose check at all. What you want is a hard drive band on the boolit itself so it takes the twist at high velocity. If a plain base is hard enough it will work too up to a point where it skids.

[VTDW]

I cast about 250 boolits with the mold (it came in today), lubed them, prepped the .444 cases, loaded the powder, inverted the checks and seated the boolits. I am going to see what happens in the morning. The boolits drop at 209-210 gr with my alloy. I will be driving them up to almost 2,800 fps if something bad doesn't happen before I reach the top end load. These boolits have 12 grooves to grip the boolits (microgroove). If they obturate just a tiny bit they should do OK. The rifle I am shooting slugs .429 and a 24" barrel. The boolits drop at .430-.431. I am using VV N-120 working up to 55.5 grains. I will take a dowel to check the barrel after each shot to make sure the checks exit the barrel. I will report back tomorrow evening and maybe post some pics if I get a decent group with these boolits.

Thanks for the help and comments folks,

Dave