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DrCaveman
02-25-2012, 07:50 PM
New caster here, working with Lee TL358-158 SWC. Loading using Lee Turret press, Lee dies.

Earlier in my (short) reloading career, I found my Lee Factory Crimp Dies to be very helpful...all cartridges run through it chambered great, and seemed to shoot great. This was with 30-06 & 45 ACP. At this time however, the FCD was doing a pretty consistent amount of "work" to the cartridge, which I thought was standard operating procedure.

Since then I have been led to believe that excessive action by the FCD is indicative of improper case mouth belling, improperly sized tips, or unusual/inconsistent case wall thickness. Maybe there are more reasons, please chime in if I have missed an important one. It was drilled into me that neck tension was the real issue at hand, and if I was experiencing excessive FCD work, then I did not have proper neck tension.

Therefore I have attempted to reduce the extent of case mouth expansion to the bare minimum to allow straight bullet seating. Of course with jacketed this poses no apparent problems but with plated (Berry's) or straight case it is another story. So far these "problems" have not resulted in any noticeable issues when shooting, so maybe I shouldnt even worry, but I like to think that this forum is a place where people can walk a theoretical path, receive advice from those who have walked the literal path, and help others who may be considering the same path. Here is the long & short:

I am experiencing a little bit of lead shaving on probably 25% of my seatings. I dont mix brass makers, but I also do not keep rigorous track of number of reloads in each case. Since I size all the boolits, I'm thinking maybe that the case wall thickness is different from case to case. On the other hand, I thought the expander die worked from the inside-out, so the expanded ID of the case should be the same from case to case. Then, the Lee FCD would even things out by flattening the outside of the case to a uniform dimension.

For some reason, however, about a quarter of my boolits show small slivers of lead after coming back down out of the seating die. The Lee FCD wipes these clean, so they will never be getting into my guns, but it seems like a bad thing that I am losing lead and maybe over-smoothing the edge of the boolit.

The good news is that the Lee FCD does next to nothing to the cartridges, other than crimping at the full downstroke position. There is no "smoothing" of the case walls like I used to experience, other than the fact that the lead slivers are gone. So I think that the neck tension is appropriate, or at least, it is strong enough.

Further, I have not noticed any bullet creep while shooting my revolvers. I have not yet reached full Magnum loads with my home-cast, but I will on my next shooting session. I have certainly experienced incomplete powder burn with 2400, Lil Gun, & IMR 4227. While using jacketed, an increase in powder charge seemed to solve the powder burn problem. I am hoping that proper attention to neck tension will solve the problem with my cast.

Quick, easy question: do the settings for optimal neck tension for your 357 mag result in case shaving, occasionally?

Next: what level of importance do you place on this level of neck tension? Is it more important than easy boolit seating (i.e, would you scrap boolits/adjust your expander die)?

Third: how dramatic of an effect on complete powder burning should I expect from an adjustment in neck tension?

thanks in advance.

stubshaft
02-25-2012, 10:25 PM
First off, I don't use a FCD on 357's the roll crim/seating die just works fine for me. Yes, cases can be different thicknesses. The expander die should open the case enough so that it doesn't size the boolit and provide a slight flare at the mouth to preclude any shaving of the boolit. If you are seeing small slivers of metal after seating the boolit then somewhere, somehow the case is shaving them as you are seating the boolit. Expand the mouth more and make sure the inside lip of the case is chamfered.

In answer to your quick question, NO.

For your third question it would depend on the powder used, but I have not had a dramatic difference from cartridges that were overcrimped vs. ones that had just enough crimp to stop the boolit from creeping.

DrCaveman
02-25-2012, 10:53 PM
Thank you stubshaft.

I have neglected to chamfer my 357 cases since none have lengthened enough to be trimmed. I have just skipped the case prep step, other than some cleansing. I should check them again, now that they have had a few more firings, but I am not pushing the envelope of pressure so I don't expect my cases to get too beat up. But, simple quick chamfering is easy so I will try it and see how the seatings go with the same flare settings.

If this still shaves off lead then I will also increase the flare. When I first started reloading, I took this as the end- all and always belled the case to the point that the Lee FCD die did a lot of work, but everything chambered well. I am led to believe that this induces excessive wear on the cases, shortening life. You skip the FCD; with your generous case belling practice, are there any problems introduced?

I tried using the seating die to crimp once, and it seemed to work great but then I noticed a tad variation between cases of different mfgr. This was cured easy enough by adjustment between batches, but I just found the adjustment to be more difficult than for the FCD and the results quite similar.

As for powder burning, would a lack of complete burn indeed be indicative of insufficient neck tension? Or are there too many variables? A quick one: 13.3 gr 2400 in a 6" GP100. STD cci primer, fed mag case, TL 358-158 swc, sized 358, Lee Alox lube. Lots of unburned powder in barrel. Or, at least powder skeletons. Problem?

runfiverun
02-25-2012, 11:09 PM
balancing enough case mouth flair and too much can be kinda tricky.
you just squeezed down the case then bent it open then mashed it flat and rolled it over into the crimp groove.
this will shorten case life substantially.
doing each as little as possible will extend case life.
the fcd squeezes things again making them minimum dimensions so they will chamber no matter what.
i ain't ever used one and haven't ever had any issues chambering a round.
the case flair tool is where you control neck tension,changing it to go a bit deeper in the case and a more gentle flair is sometimes necessary.
rather than just cramming the case mouth open.

stubshaft
02-26-2012, 12:12 AM
The way that I adjust the seating/crimp die is to put a case that is belled on the ram and raise it all of the way up.

Lower the die body until it just touches the case (you'll feel it) and back off 1/4 turn.

Charge case and put boolit in it.

Screw the seating stem down a couple of turns and slowly raise the charged case and boolit seating the boolit until the crimp groove is in line with the case mouth.

Back the seating stem out a couple of turns and adjust the die body until you get the crimp that you want (making sure the seating stem is NOT touching the boolit) and lock the die body in place.

NOW, screw the seating stem until it touches the boolit and lock it into place also.

If all of your cases are trimmed to the same length this will result in an adequate crimp, properly seated boolit.

With respect to the unburned powder you can try a magnum primer or back off slightly on the charge. There is no problem with the load range you are working with some powders are dirtier than others.

The key is accuracy! A fast miss doesn't count for anything.

Good luck

P.S. - I usually make a dummy round with the boolit I am loading to make adjustments later easier (just lower the die body and screw stem down until it contacts the boolit).

smoked turkey
02-26-2012, 12:25 AM
In my case I have noted that very slight variations in case length will result in inconsistent crimps. This is to be expected as not all cases stretch at the same amount. I can understand your quandry because if you adjust your crimp die to crimp the shortest case in your lot, then some of your cases will end up being "over crimped" if you will. I think a happy medium is where the minimum crimp will still function in your gun. I know its a pain to check your loads but it is better to find out when at the press than at the range.

Nora
02-26-2012, 12:44 AM
The method that I use to check the neck flair is with a GC boolit sized to the diameter that I want, even if the boolit to be used is a plain base. I will flare the neck just enough to seat the GC half way up. This will ensure that it is opened enough to keep the boolit from shaving off wile still not overdoing it. If you run your finger up the side of the case you can just feel the flare, but it's almost (but not completely) unnoticeable by looking at it.

Nora

44man
02-26-2012, 09:24 AM
I have a bunch of .44 brass that has reached 42 re loads without a loss. Go ahead and flare just right after you chamfer them. Just a twist with the tool is enough to remove the sharp edge.
I would not use the FCD, just roll crimp. The stabs are worse on brass and if it is the one with the insert, it will break tension and size the boolit while in the brass.
Check the inside dimensions of the seat die, it might be too small and removing the flare as you try to seat a boolit. Put an empty, flared case in and see.

GP100man
02-26-2012, 09:53 AM
As I was reading the OP I kept saying to myself "bet he does`nt trimm his brass" !

As much as a long case affects roll crimping A short case affects flaring .

& different LOTS of the same brand brass can have different elasticity properties even if they are the same length & can flare/expand totally different .

I expand with an "M" die for soft boolits ,the need for alot of neck tension is not needed & will probably affect boolit dia. if it`s soft enuff, but only flare for harder/higher pressure boolits such as hunting & such.

If ya think your damaging or to check for damage just pull a boolit after seating & measure it .

If I scrape a boolit I pull it .

cf_coder
02-26-2012, 11:48 AM
For the life of me, I've never had to trim pistol brass. I've been shooting the same batch of .357 cases that were given to me by my father-in-law (and who knows how many times he reloaded them???) and have reloaded most of them at least 10 times and each time I clean them up, they get a spin on the Lee trimmer tool and never, not once, has the cutting blade ever touched metal on any of them.

I just use the powder through expander die for my pistol loads and set it to just allow the base of the boolit to sit in the case, then off we go.

462
02-26-2012, 12:10 PM
Another thing to consider is how Lee's "flairing" die -- unlike Lyman's "expanding" M-die -- will not permit the boolit to sit squarely and firmly in the case mouth. Coupling that with a seating die that is designed for jacketed bullets, rather than a boolit that is usually fat-for-caliber (are your boolits fatter than .358"?), might cause lead shaving (or boolit swaging). Lastly, if the seating die isn't swaging the boolit, the handgun FCD may be.

When it came to loading handgun boolits, each and every problem I experienced was directly related to my use of Lee dies. They're long gone, and so are the problems.

DrCaveman
02-26-2012, 01:31 PM
Another thing to consider is how Lee's "flairing" die -- unlike Lyman's "expanding" M-die -- will not permit the boolit to sit squarely and firmly in the case mouth. Coupling that with a seating die that is designed for jacketed bullets, rather than a boolit that is usually fat-for-caliber (are your boolits fatter than .358"?), might cause lead shaving (or boolit swaging). Lastly, if the seating die isn't swaging the boolit, the handgun FCD may be.

When it came to loading handgun boolits, each and every problem I experienced was directly related to my use of Lee dies. They're long gone, and so are the problems.

In what way does the Lee flaring die (named the powder through/expanding die) inhibit the boolit sitting squarely in the case mouth? My ignorance or other brands is surely showing, but I am curious what the differences are. My boolits are Lee sized to .358, though I admit that I only measured a handful after going through the sizing die. I take it that if my FCD is in fact swaging the boolit, then they are either cast badly or sized improperly? Is swaging the boolit a really terrible thing?

RCBS dies are readily available at local stores. Do you think I would see a night-and-day difference? And I could easily check this, but would they work with my Lee presses?

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.

DrCaveman
02-26-2012, 01:45 PM
As I was reading the OP I kept saying to myself "bet he does`nt trimm his brass" !

As much as a long case affects roll crimping A short case affects flaring .

& different LOTS of the same brand brass can have different elasticity properties even if they are the same length & can flare/expand totally different .

I expand with an "M" die for soft boolits ,the need for alot of neck tension is not needed & will probably affect boolit dia. if it`s soft enuff, but only flare for harder/higher pressure boolits such as hunting & such.

If ya think your damaging or to check for damage just pull a boolit after seating & measure it .

If I scrape a boolit I pull it .

You are correct, I do not trim my brass. I found the lengths to be consistently under the max 357 dimensions before resizing. After resizing, the few samples I measured approached the max length, but still were under. It kind of sounds like I need to lengthen my brass, somehow, to keep the flare consistent. Or, maybe measure all my brass and break them into 'length lots'?

I am becoming more confused as to standard 357 procedure. Do you all: 1) resize & decap, 2) remove case from press 3) clean case including primer pocket 4) trim & chamfer case 5) put case back into press 6) prime 7) flare/expand 8) powder charge 9) seat 10) crimp

Maybe combine seat/crimp to save a step, but this is still 4 more steps then I have been taking, with an extra removal from the press, mid process. I am using a turret, so this may not be inconveniencing me as much as progressive users, but doesn't all this case prep severely cut into efficiency? Maybe I am expecting too much from my Lee equipment. Or maybe I am just being too hasty.

So far, my load experimentation has focused on report, POI, barrel fouling, and pressure signs. Accuracy has been acceptable for all loadings, when I do my part. What improvements should I expect to see from adding the above described case prepping?

Recluse
02-26-2012, 02:06 PM
I am becoming more confused as to standard 357 procedure. Do you all: 1) resize & decap, 2) remove case from press 3) clean case including primer pocket 4) trim & chamfer case 5) put case back into press 6) prime 7) flare/expand 8) powder charge 9) seat 10) crimp

I can count the number of times I've had to trim my .357 brass on one hand and have a finger or two left over. :)

My reloading procedure is pretty simple:

1. Tumble and clean the brass.

2. Reload it.

3. Shoot it.

I do all my magnum loads on a single-stage, so once the brass has been tumbled and cleaned, I--

• re-size/de-prime

• prime

• flare

• charge

• seat and crimp (measuring OAL with the calipers)

Again, I've rarely ever trimmed a .357 case and to be honest with you, I'm not sure I ever chamfered one (unless it had to be trimmed).

:coffee:

462
02-26-2012, 02:50 PM
Doc,
Lyman's M-die incorporates a two-step expanding plug. The first step "expands" -- rather than "flares" -- the case mouth, so that it is parallel to the case body. The second section adds a square step on which the boolit sits. The combination of the parallel mouth expansion and the step assure that the boolit is aligned squarely with the case mouth and enters it without any shaving. Go here: http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/dies/rifle-die-details.php?brand=3&cartridge=26&die=52

With a "flaring" die, the boolit does not sit squarely and securely in the case mouth -- it sits at some wrong angle and is prone to wobble about. Lee seating dies rely on a floating seating stem to align the boolit. If the boolit is sitting an an angle, the seating stem presses it against the side of the case mouth and something has to give. Lead is softer than brass . . .

A Lee handgun Carbide Factory Crimp Die (not to be confused with their rifle Factory Crimp Die, which is a most useful tool) sizes the round so that it will chamber in all guns of that caliber. In the case of .357 Magnum, that is .357". Your boolits is .358" (or more). Pull a boolit that has been through the FCD and measure it. Chances are excellent that the boolit will be smaller than when it was seated. That said, there are members whose experiences differ.

After you have gone to all the trouble to cast and size a boolit to its desired dimension, why would you want to swage it -- make it smaller?

RCBS dies will fit your Lee press, but they flair the case mouth, too. Each of my RCBS die sets include the addition of a Lyman M-die.

I'm not disparaging Lee products (I own many of them) or those who use them. I have only related my experiences.

DrCaveman
02-26-2012, 03:54 PM
462 thanks for explaining the difference in what the "M" die accomplishes, and how it does it. I keep hearing reference to that die, perhaps that will be my next reloading purchase. You betcha that my boolits are often not straight when I pull down the arm to seat them. Sometimes it takes several seconds of fiddling to even make the boolit balance on the case.

Previously, I just cranked down my expander die to solve this, and the tips all seated nice, but I could see a solid 1/4" - 5/16" of worked brass, and it seemed like too much for good case life. Reminds me of when I forgot to change die height at the start of a 357 loading session...dies were set for 38 spl. The case looked like a trumpet!

Frankly, I got on the FCD kick because of great results in 30-06, then it seemed to solve my feeding issues with various 45 acp loads. I then started using it with 38 & 357, without really having any problem to solve.

Maybe I ditch the FCD on my turret, and add in a lyman M-die? Expand & powder charge in 2 steps, seat & crimp in one step?

Oh, and certainly no offense taken regarding Lee products. My skin is thick, and I am too new at this to have any unshakable opinions. I do however appreciate an open mind, free of prejudice. Too many people have one bad experience with something, and write it off for good. Often, I think that there are too many variables involved to conclusively damn any one piece of the equation.

To turn a full 180, however, I am beginning to suspect that my minor frustrations and inconsistent
results may have to do with my choice of tools. Time & repetition will hopefully tell.

462
02-26-2012, 04:43 PM
Doc,
If it hadn't been for this site, when I first started casting and reloading boolits, I would have been in dire straits. I spent untold hours perusing the Archive, reading all the sub-forum stickies, and even topics that didn't pretain to my circumstances. It's amazing the knowledge that is available here.

I seat and crimp (when needed) using two RCBS single stage presses, so I can't offer any turret setup advise.

Lee's rifle factory crimp die is very useful, though I only use it when reloading .30-30, for the Winchester Model 94. Simple neck tension -- M-die, again -- takes care of all the other rifle calibers and cartridges.

Seems equipment buying never ends. Recently, I bought another set of .45 ACP dies, because I wasn't completely satisfied with the others.

avan47
02-26-2012, 05:04 PM
I trim my 357, 38 special, and 41 mag brass so that I get a more uniform roll crimp. I don't count it a step in my reloading process because it's usually a one time process. I got along fine for several years reloading 357 mag and 30-06 without owning a case trimmer. One day one the range, shooting my 30-06, I experience sticky extraction, and noticed some of the primers were falling out of the brass. These are definite signs of excess pressure on a load that I knew to be safe. Looking for the problem, I found excessive case length. That is when I decided I needed a case trimmer. Now, I check cases for excessive length, and since I have the case trimmer, I use it for uniformity. I don't bother trimming 9mm or 45 acp, and have never had a problem with them.

DrCaveman
02-26-2012, 06:01 PM
462 indeed I have spent many hours reading about topics which dont yet pertain to my situation, but seem interesting & full of valid information. More often than not, I eventually stumble upon a question/ uncertainty while doing my bullet work which renders my previous research useful.

I like to think that this website along with a few other good ones (THR, firing line, just to name a couple) have helped accelerate my learning hugely. I seem to have finally reached a point where my exact questions aren't yet answered by prior threads, and I just had to join in to the discussion. Now, my main hurdle is finding enough time to get out and shoot my 300 rounds each week. I need to work less!

Thanks again to everyone for this bounty of free information. I think you are helping to perpetuate the fine tradition of American citizens' self armament, done so through many of our own devices and self-sustenance. And worldwide, the family of boolit casters and hand loaders is one to be proud to be part of.

Recluse
02-26-2012, 09:33 PM
Frankly, I got on the FCD kick because of great results in 30-06, then it seemed to solve my feeding issues with various 45 acp loads. I then started using it with 38 & 357, without really having any problem to solve.


*grin*

Ain't it the truth!

I like the FCD dies for rifle calibers and use them religiously. Some folks say you don't need to crimp rifle rounds, but I've almost always have and up to this point, gotten my best results doing so.

However, when working up loads, I do both crimped and uncrimped "samples" to compare. To date, my crimped rounds have outperformed my non-crimped rounds. Not by a lot, but by enough.

Interestingly enough, I too use a FCD for .45 ACP, but it's the ONLY FCD for all of my handgun cartridges I reload that I use. However, I buffed and lapped the carbide sizing ring out just enough so that it doesn't really "swage" the boolit down but rather uniforms everything perfectly concentric.

I was having some feed problems with two of my favorite SWC boolits (185gr and 200gr) in my beloved Hardballer Longslide and my Sig P220. The FCD fixed that problem, I have zero leading, and accuracy actually improved.

I'm not even going to pretend I'm smart enough to know what all happened. I only know my targets got better, my barrels got cleaner, and no more feed jams.

I've learned in forty years of reloading not to look a gift-fairy in the mouth unless you plan on kissing her in gratitude. :)

Keep going and keep asking questions. We love discussing this stuff.

:coffee: