Cast or Jacket for Bear Defense

[FromTheWoods]

One of my sons is carrying a .44 magnum up in Brown Bear country of Alaska.

I've loaded 240 grain hard cast bullets for him, but was wondering if I should go with jackets instead?

[Grandpas50AE]

Been to Alaska, lived there for a year. As long as the boolits are tough instead of brittle, I doubt the bear will notice the difference between cast and jacketed. Having said that, being in the woods with brown bears up there I felt undergunned with a pistol of any caliber. Heck, there was no guarantee that the .458 Mag. would stop a determined bear, but nature presents situations that all you can do is your best...sometimes it is good enough, sometimes it isn't - that part of the equation is not in our hands.

[turmech]

don't know much about bears but I would think hard cast would give better penetration than an expanding jacketed. Penetration would be key in attempting to stop a bear. I would also think head shot which I would want non little expansion to be shore to penetrate the skull of a big bear.

[stubshaft]

Bears are not going to react to the "shock" created by an HP condom. I would prefer a hardcast boolit of good design.

[tuckerdog]

hot 45-70 or 458 would be my choice but handguns are easier to carry, 300grn wfn loaded to max for your revolver. The only experience I have with bears is wrestling 1 once and they are unbelievably powerful even the 'tame' homegrown one I played with was more than a couple of strong men could handle when he did finally turn.

He was a large black, I couldn't imagine a brown in that situation.

mihecs 433-300 solid comes to mind

[Mooseman]

Bears are not going to react to the "shock" created by an HP condom. I would prefer a hardcast boolit of good design.

Really ?
The ones I have shot with A JHP dropped like a rock...
I was given some 300 Grain Solids to try for my .44 mag and havent had a Bear come near me since. So they are untested.

[runfiverun]

not knowing or being able to wait for "the shot" i'd take penetration.
if i could get that with a flat point of some sort id call it a "bonus".
something that will penetrate bone and was fairly heavy for caliber, and was moving over 1,100 fps, would be my preferred run away and shoot load.
a 270 ish gr flat nosed heavy jaxketed bullet with a core that had some [3%] antimony in it would be good. in my book..
whether in 44 or 45 caliber is up to the carrier, more than that would be better.
a lot of practice with it would be just ummm better than a flame thrower that you can't shoot straight.

[mpmarty]

I was told when in Whitehorse to use cast boolits in my 44mag and to lube them with bacon fat so when I threw down the empty gun and ran the bear might stop to sniff it long enough for me to get away.

[Mooseman]

We keep a full cylinder here...5 for the Bear and 1 for me if all else fails !!!

[Jammer Six]

I'm always amazed at people who think carrying a handgun for any of the brown bears will work.

Pepper spray works against brown bears. Handguns don't.

[BRobertson]

Jammersix

Idon't know how many bears you have shot with a handgun, and how many you have sprayed with pepper spray,

Having killed them with a handgun, I know it works.

A friend of mine had a complete failure with the spray.

Pepper spray should be reserved for the gorp-eaters, and other expendable types!!!

Anyone who depends on pepper spray is subject to the law of natural selection!!

Bob

[waksupi]

Hollow points, very bad.
Jacketed soft nose, bad.
Cast boolits, very good.

That bear spray don't work all that well. Jack Hannah about had his lunch ate using it last spring up here. Gotta be UPWIND from the bear.

[Jammer Six]

And you need a cone spray pattern.

[Dennis Eugene]

Personally I'll take a good strong revolver in .45 colt, with my own handloads, over a .44 mag any day of the week for bear. That being said if I was packing a .44 it would have cast in it not jacketed anything. Dennis

[mud lake]

I hope to God that I never have to shoot a Grizz with any handgun, including the .454 Casull that I carry when I am away from a big bore rifle or a 12 gauge loaded with slugs. You cannot anticipate or choose the how and when of an encounter where the only choice is to shoot. Best hope that your Guardian Angel is on duty and alert to your situation. But hey, thats what makes living in Alaska exciting....ya jest never know!

[Thompsoncustom]

Hmmm never had to think about this as I live in Iowa but if there were bears around here I think I would cast some of my zinc rounds as they do not deform they would penetrate very well tho if using a rifle I'm not sure it would make any difference but it probably would in a handgun.

Saiga 12 with the slide fire stock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZoRECL--40
12 gauge start at 1:50 I think this would work for any bear. :)

[Gohon]

Really ? The ones I have shot with A JHP dropped like a rock...

You're missing the point. The OP is talking about bear protection which generally means a charging bear coming head first at you.....not a bear that is unsuspectingly ambushed with a well placed shot to the vitals. A bullet that will drive deep and smash bone is required and a JHP is a poor choice to accomplish that. Only way to stop a pumped up charging bear is to hit the brain, spine, or break bone and shock does not enter anywhere in the picture.

[just.don]

41343

"Due to the frequency of human-bear encounters, the B C Fish and
Wildlife Branch is advising hikers, hunters, fishermen, and any persons
that use the out of doors in a recreational or work related function to
take extra precautions while in the field.

We advise the outdoorsman to wear little noisy bells on clothing so as
to give advance warning to any bears that might be close by so you don’t
take them by surprise.

We also advise anyone using the out-of doors to carry “Pepper Spray”
with him in case of an encounter with a bear.

Outdoorsmen should also be on the watch for fresh bear activity, and
be able to tell the difference between black bear feces and grizzly bear
feces. Black bear feces is smaller and contains lots of berries and
squirel fur. Grizzly Bear **** has bells in it and smells like pepper."

[Shiloh]

I'm always amazed at people who think carrying a handgun for any of the brown bears will work.

Pepper spray works against brown bears. Handguns don't.

I just don't see me in brown bear territory on his terms.
There are black bear in northern Minnesota and Wisconsin though.
the further north the more common. They get into all the trash bins.

I know folks who have taken black bear with cast. This was with rifles though.
Two entirely different critters black and brown bear.

SHiloh

[Blammer]

hmm, if I had to choose, I'd choose a bullet that penetrates well. Whatever that may be for you.

I do know any handgun trumps a sharp stick or pepper spray. :)

[Papa smurf]

Best defense is a good pair of running shoes and leave your handgun home , you will only make them mad !---------------------------Papa Smurf

[bowenrd]

I could never figure out where the mentality of a handgun for bear defense came from. A 12 gauge or a .338 Win Mag would be MINIMUM. 2 cents worth.

[Jammer Six]

You'll never out run a brown bear. The myth about running downhill is just that, a myth.

Black bears will flee like the billowing wind, given even half of a small ghost of a chance. The only black bears I've seen in the wild, I saw from the rear.

But browns...

Carry pepper spray and the biggest, heaviest rifle you can get into action quickly with, and you're still rolling dice.

[winelover]

I could never figure out where the mentality of a handgun for bear defense came from. A 12 gauge or a .338 Win Mag would be MINIMUM. 2 cents worth.

Cause it's better than a sharp stick!

Winelover

[MtGun44]

Because a rifle or shotgun gets put down because it is big and long and unhandy. And the
pistol is there in the holster all the time. If you are going to pick a fight with big griz, you
want a rifle. If you are going to get jumped when you least expect it, then the pistol will
still be there and is as mentioned above 'better than a sharp stick'.

Personally, I load 250 Keiths a max velocity in my 329 for griz. Not a lot of horsepower
in ANY pistol, so you need to avoid trading depth for width. Go for depth.

Bill

[1bluehorse]

"Ya can't kill em' with a handgun"..."nothing less than a 12 gauge" (which I think would be a poor choice) "gotta hit em' in the brain or break their back".. and right above that is someone who lives in big bear country and has ACTUALLY killed some bears, who says it can be done, with a jacketed bullet no less...amazing...also a well published account just a couple years ago where a guy killed a "CHARGING" grizzly with a .454 alaskan (short barrel) rapid fire (IIRC he fired 4 shots) and wasn't trying to place his shots to "break bone" or hit the brain pan, he was just trying to stop the d#*n thing. He wasn't even sure which round (s) hit the bear or where they hit.........still the result was a dead bear at his feet. Lucky?maybe...also watched one of those "Alaska" shows on TV where some locals were having trouble with a Polar bear.......killed it with a AR in .223/556...I agree with you all on that one, wouldn't be my choice either....but it sure enough killed that bear...would I want to shoot a big bear with a handgun? nope.

[Jammer Six]

I'd rather have the sharp stick against a griz. That way, I'd know I was unarmed.

[429421Cowboy]

waksupi

That bear spray don't work all that well. Jack Hannah about had his lunch ate using it last spring up here. Gotta be UPWIND from the bear.[/QUOTE]

...a moment that went down in the Montana history book funniest thing i ever read!!
I do make it a point to carry bear spray when hunting or in grizzly country, but always have my Super Blackhawk on my hip as well, because there are few things i trust more than it in this world. I carry Buffalo Bore 340gr +P+ HC GC rounds in it at a claimed velocity of 1400fps, i know they will do the job if asked.
When the lady friend drew a bul elk tag for a very good district last fall and we went i carryed my handloads with 270gr Speer softpoints because i would have the chance to take a mule deer, but also knew that bears were still a concern.

[Jammer Six]

One needs fresh spray.

That can from 1995, and that one you bought last year won't do.

I need to read about Jack Hannah. I like to giggle at expressions at the moment of understanding.

[JayinAZ]

I always heard you should file the front sight off of any handgun you carry in brown bear country. That way when the bear takes your empty gun and shoves it up your hind end, it won't hurt so much :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Reload3006]

If I were a guide in Alaska and Kodiak browns were my game. I would back my clients up with a 500 S&W. For Hiking in the Rockies A 629 would probably do ya. Personally since I live in Missouri. We have a few black bears but nothing to ever worry about. I dont see that Its a concern for me. Should I ever win the Lotto. (which is doubtful cuz I dont buy tickets) I would love to take a trip to Alaska for a moose hunt. But since that is about a Ten to twelve thousand dollar proposition its never going to happen. So the most dangerous animal I ever expect to face with my hand gun is a featherless turkey and even my 38 is probably sufficient for that LOL.

[Texantothecore]

.454 and .45-70 are pistols that are preferred by bear guides from what I hear from my bear hunting friends.

[Bob Krack]

I have a friend Cody, in Ketchikan Alaske, in the medical field who is also occasionally is called upon to track injured brown bear (not to assist them medically, but to eliminate the danger to humans) . In the deep brush his weapon of choice is a S&W 500 magnum loaded with Lee 440 grain flat nosed slugs.

I've never been there and it ain't gonna happen my lifetime either.

Bob

[FromTheWoods]

Thank you all for your opinions. I'll keep loading the cast for him.

Yes, a 20mm cannon would be a good choice to carry also. Might be big enough. The "bigger the better" belief is not one I discount. If he would carry a monster rifle with him always and be able to access it in a moment, I'd get one for him. I just don't believe it would be within his grasp as readily as a handgun would be.

I figure his .44 magnum is a good gun for him. He will carry it each time out and have it at hand in an emergency. He is an excellent shot with it. Whether it will stop an assault by a bear=fate, luck, grace, . . . But, given time, he will at least have a chance to try to stop the attack. I am hoping he will never have to address a disgruntled bear.

I've grown up with guns and the mind-set that a bullet is better than a can of spray. Could die from that idea someday, but I will die with that slightest little feeling that I trust my gun. --A lot of good that will do me!

As it stands, seems as if someone needs to invent a new device for thwarting attacks. We could argue a long time as things are now.

[avan47]

Best defense is a good pair of running shoes and leave your handgun home ,
That onlly works if you bring a friend along with you that can't run as fast as you can.

[Jammer Six]

As it stands, seems as if someone needs to invent a new device for thwarting attacks.
That's pretty funny.

This argument and that statement is exactly why bear spray is on the market now. :D

[FromTheWoods]

Ha, Yes! J-Six.

At least inventing another method/instrument would widen the doors to the debate!

Might add a new flavor for the bears also.

[Mooseman]

Pepper Spray...I don't know anybody here that carries pepper spray other than the BLM and National Park Monkeys, and even they carry 12 ga. shotguns.
In a Bear Charge , you dont have time to mess with pepper spray and you had better be darn fast with a gun. Ask me how I know. A Bear can hit speeds of 45 to 50 MPH...We clocked them running in front of the truck. You cannot outrun a Bear on foot and running is the worst thing you can do...That bear sees a meal and smells your fear and that will get you killed. Black Bears are just as bad as grizzlies as far as killing Humans, one killed a woman not far from here.
The real key in Alaska is to be AWARE of your surroundings and to know what to do if you are attacked in order to have a chance of survival. A good Dog here is worth his weight in ammo...and Im not talking some little ankle biter foofoo dog.
I have been face to face with huge grizzlies and I have been surprised charged by grizzlies and Mad Bull moose and what saved me was keeping a cool head and fast accurate shooting. Knowing where to shoot is the key and so far the best was to hit them right between the eyes. They drop like a rock when the brain gets scrambled.
Shooting them under the chin takes out their heart but they can still keep coming and live for 2-3 minutes which can get you killed if the Bear doesn't turn.
I have Lived and hunted here for 28 years now and we respect the bears and unit 13 is full of them. My friends and I have killed lots of bears over the years.
You can keep the pepper spray...I will keep my .44 Redhawk, my 300 Mag, My 45-70, and my 30/06 rifles close at hand.
Rich
PS...My signature line is what I said after my rifle went click as a Black bear was charging and I had to drop it and pull my pistol to shoot the Bear. Remington Factory ammo had bad primers that failed to fire. Food for thought !

[Jammer Six]

Pepper Spray...I don't know anybody here that carries pepper spray other than the BLM and National Park Monkeys, and even they carry 12 ga. shotguns.
Well, now you do.

But only in grizzly country. :)

[Stick_man]

Really ?
The ones I have shot with A JHP dropped like a rock...
I was given some 300 Grain Solids to try for my .44 mag and havent had a Bear come near me since. So they are untested.

That's because the bears can sense what you are carrying. They can smell the copper jackets on the JHP and know they have a fighting chance. They smell the lube on a heavy cast boolit and know they don't have much chance. Fear has stricken their heart so they stay away. ;-) :kidding:

If it were my call, I'd go for the heavy cast boolit over a JHP anytime for bears and go for the penetration over expansion.

[smoked turkey]

Regarding Mooseman's signature line..I read somewhere that the two loudest sounds you'll ever hear are 1. the sound of a click when it should have gone boom, and 2. a boom when you expected it to go click.

[saz]

Pepper Spray...I don't know anybody here that carries pepper spray other than the BLM and National Park Monkeys, and even they carry 12 ga. shotguns.
In a Bear Charge , you dont have time to mess with pepper spray and you had better be darn fast with a gun. Ask me how I know. A Bear can hit speeds of 45 to 50 MPH...We clocked them running in front of the truck. You cannot outrun a Bear on foot and running is the worst thing you can do...That bear sees a meal and smells your fear and that will get you killed. Black Bears are just as bad as grizzlies as far as killing Humans, one killed a woman not far from here.
The real key in Alaska is to be AWARE of your surroundings and to know what to do if you are attacked in order to have a chance of survival. A good Dog here is worth his weight in ammo...and Im not talking some little ankle biter foofoo dog.
I have been face to face with huge grizzlies and I have been surprised charged by grizzlies and Mad Bull moose and what saved me was keeping a cool head and fast accurate shooting. Knowing where to shoot is the key and so far the best was to hit them right between the eyes. They drop like a rock when the brain gets scrambled.
Shooting them under the chin takes out their heart but they can still keep coming and live for 2-3 minutes which can get you killed if the Bear doesn't turn.
I have Lived and hunted here for 28 years now and we respect the bears and unit 13 is full of them. My friends and I have killed lots of bears over the years.
You can keep the pepper spray...I will keep my .44 Redhawk, my 300 Mag, My 45-70, and my 30/06 rifles close at hand.
Rich
PS...My signature line is what I said after my rifle went click as a Black bear was charging and I had to drop it and pull my pistol to shoot the Bear. Remington Factory ammo had bad primers that failed to fire. Food for thought !

Perfect! I know where mooseman lives, and I can tell you that he probably sees more bears in a year than most poeple will see in a lifetime. I will say that I have a can of spray, but it stays inside the front door of the camper in the event we are having a few "beverages" in the campground.

Although I have not lived in AK as long as Mooseman, I carry my .44mag everywhere stoked with Lee 310's at 1200fps. I think the best advice I have heard is carry the biggest thing you can shoot accurately for a central nervous system shot (think "in the face"). I have had a bluff charge once while out on my fourwheeler (I was 75 yards from the machine) and stumbled on a small sow blackie and CUBS. She charged from about 50 yards and stopped at about 25-30, and right when she stopped is when I FINALLY had a good sight picture. It happens fast, and my reaction time was really slow- scared the hell out of me.

I also agree that the BEST thing to have is a GOOD dog or two. I have 2 KBD's that go almost everywhere with me. They are the absolute best early warning device out there and they are scared of absolutely nothing. They are truly fearless. Even my pup (she is almost 18 months now) will chase off moose without even thinking about it.

[Jammer Six]

Actually, the loudest sound I heard was after the boom.

My wife came to the top of the stairs and said "what was that?"

I'm pretty sure she already knew the answer.

[saz]

[QUOTE=Stick_man;1607722]That's because the bears can sense what you are carrying. They can smell the copper jackets on the JHP and know they have a fighting chance. They smell the lube on a heavy cast boolit and know they don't have much chance. Fear has stricken their heart so they stay away. ;-) :kidding:

QUOTE]

Yall are too funny! I needed that this morning!

In all seriousness this debate comes up a LOT up here. Pistols are way better than throwing rocks though.......

[Jammer Six]

[QUOTE=Stick_man;1607722]Pistols are way better than throwing rocks though.......
Why?

Both will annoy him enough that he will lose all interest in anything in the world except you...

[Mal Paso]

Because a rifle or shotgun gets put down because it is big and long and unhandy. And the
pistol is there in the holster all the time. If you are going to pick a fight with big griz, you
want a rifle. If you are going to get jumped when you least expect it, then the pistol will
still be there and is as mentioned above 'better than a sharp stick'.

Personally, I load 250 Keiths a max velocity in my 329 for griz. Not a lot of horsepower
in ANY pistol, so you need to avoid trading depth for width. Go for depth.

Bill

Exactly

I'm 180 lbs and 44 Mag is about the most I can shoot comfortably for the practice I need to shoot well. At first I carried the Buffalo Bore 340g LBT +P+ ( 1308 fps/1292 me 4" Redhawk ) but I really wanted to carry the same boolit I use for practice. The Keith 260g cast bullet in front of The Keith Load will do 1497fps/1244me, penetrate 14" of Cedar and retain 97% of weight. Same Gun.

The other half of the program is I shoot every day I am there. I believe the Bears and Varmints are fully informed. Although I've seen huge piles of poo and sizable tracks I've yet to see a bear. Works for me.

Used to carry bear mace. I wouldn't want to get that close. My daughter sprayed herself accidentally and I can tell you for sure it won't stop a teenager.

[Mooseman]

That's because the bears can sense what you are carrying. They can smell the copper jackets on the JHP and know they have a fighting chance. They smell the lube on a heavy cast boolit and know they don't have much chance. Fear has stricken their heart so they stay away. ;-) :kidding:

If it were my call, I'd go for the heavy cast boolit over a JHP anytime for bears and go for the penetration over expansion.

My 300 gr. solids Are Barnes Solids....Not Cast. I think the bears know a head shot will come out his backside !!! LOL

[fredj338]

A good cast 250grSWC or heavier @ 1100fps + will penetrate a long way. I don't feel much is gained by a jacketed bullet going the same speed. You want penetration & a good heavy cast bullet gives you that in a portable package. Bear spray backed by a heavy handgun & a good dose of common sense. USe eitehr as called for. Not every situation is a shooting one.

[waksupi]

Dogs are good for bears. They always lead the bear right back to you.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
NICE ONE just.don.:grin:

[429421Cowboy]

Dogs are good for bears. They always lead the bear right back to you.

Seems to be the way dogs are with PO'ed bulls and just about any other critter that doesn't run away when they chase it. Lived in the mountains over the summer most years till i was 8 watching our cows that we summered, horses don't mine black bears but the dogs only caused troube for us the whole time we were there, and i was too young to have the benifit of a handgun or else i might have used it on the dogs!
But KBD's are a different story, they are truely amazing when it comes to bears.

[Jammer Six]

What's a KBD?

[olafhardt]

Some people used to refer to sprays as " tear gas ". I figure that if you shoot about any critter in the face it will bring tears to its eyes. I know little about bears and that is all I want to know.

[saz]

What's a KBD?

A KBD is a Karelian Bear Dog. Just google it and watch some of the youtube videos and read some articles. Wonderful dogs! I grew up with Austrailain Blue Heelers on the farm, and the attitude and temperment is very similar. We stumbled upon the breed by accident actaully. They are INCREDIBLY smart, loyal and FEARLESS! But they have a wonderful personality and are fun to be around. I wouldnt trade my two KBD's for anything.

[white eagle]

me a ......hc 700 magnum

[Freischütz]

Happily I've never had to put my 44 Mag to the test. But, a couple of guides I know prefer cast boolits to jacketed. They like 300-350 gr in the 44 Mag and 45 Colt.

[Bret4207]

I'm always amazed at people who think carrying a handgun for any of the brown bears will work.

Pepper spray works against brown bears. Handguns don't.

Pepper spray doesn't even work on people, I know for a fact it doesn't work on cattle. I don;t expect it to do much to a determined or PO'd bear.

[RugerFan]

A decent jacketed choice would be a Silhouette style bullet like the Sierra "TournamentMaster." These do not expand much and will penetrate very well. Although personally, I will stick with my own cast.

[Gohon]

Pepper spray doesn't even work on people, I know for a fact it doesn't work on cattle. I don;t expect it to do much to a determined or PO'd bear.

Don't confuse mace and personal people defense spray with bear spray. They're two different breeds of cat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=CWnACum4SJs&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=U-n51xxF8K8&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=5a2A1cZnXRo&feature=endscreen

[Jammer Six]

I suppose I should have said bear spray, not pepper spray. Sorry.

[Bret4207]

Don't confuse mace and personal people defense spray with bear spray. They're two different breeds of cat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=CWnACum4SJs&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=U-n51xxF8K8&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=5a2A1cZnXRo&feature=endscreen

Those videos don't tell me squat about what the difference between bear spray and pepper spray is.

[waksupi]

The Counter Assault bear spray they make down the road from me is definitely much stronger than any tear gas or pepper spray you have experienced.

[Bret4207]

How can know what I've been exposed to Ric?[smilie=l:


Okay, I looked it up. Your Counter Assault is advertised 2% capsic-blah, blah, blah. The stuff we were issued was .92%, so the bear stuff has about twice as much active ingredient. Thats all well and good, but I put half a can of our stuff in a guys face at 6 feet and he showed zero effect for several seconds, long enough for me to decide it wasn't going to work and I really was going to have to shoot him. I've sprayed myself numerous types searching cars and wrassling people and I wasn't exactly incapacitated. I put almost a full can in a bulls face at 8 feet or so and all it did is make him madder. He's hamburger now, or was rather. I'm sure the big cans are great and everything, but I'm not giving up my guns in favor of freakin' "Hope in a can"!

[Jammer Six]

I get his lunch.

[429421Cowboy]

I was nailed by UDAP bear spray on accident by a Forest Circus ranger while teaching Hunter Ed a couple years back and i'll tell you it was beyond what any pepper spray/mace i've ever been exposed to. There is a reason that it says a person with asthma is at serious risk of death if sprayed, it closes up your throat and shuts you down in a hurry, unlike normal pepper spray, so if you wanna play tough guy for a vid to post i'll supply the can.
I've been around cattle my whole life and have never felt a need to mace a bull for doing what comes naturally to him, much less brag about it. Not exactly sure what you thought to accomplish by doing that.

[MT Chambers]

Us Canadians maybe have a better understanding of "wearing small bells", this is so that if the offending bear bear craps in the woods they will hear the bells, and know that they have their bear. For the .44 Mag. I would recommend what has worked for me, but in carbines, a heavy (280gr.+) WFN cast bullet, jacketed are usually too soft and too short.

[44magLeo]

Does anyone make a good solid monometal 44 caliber bullet suitable for hand gun use.
I have read about them for rifles. Very excellant penetration. Very little to no deforming.
Those should work well for this type of thing.
Something like these.
Leo

[MT Chambers]

Sorry Leo but I see no advantage of this type of bullet at 1500fps. over a hardcast in the .44 mag., only lots of extra cost...maybe on African game(big 5) and fired at 2400fps.

[Bret4207]

I was nailed by UDAP bear spray on accident by a Forest Circus ranger while teaching Hunter Ed a couple years back and i'll tell you it was beyond what any pepper spray/mace i've ever been exposed to. There is a reason that it says a person with asthma is at serious risk of death if sprayed, it closes up your throat and shuts you down in a hurry, unlike normal pepper spray, so if you wanna play tough guy for a vid to post i'll supply the can.
I've been around cattle my whole life and have never felt a need to mace a bull for doing what comes naturally to him, much less brag about it. Not exactly sure what you thought to accomplish by doing that.

Well gee guy, I kinda thought it'd me neighborly of me to try and get the bull that was trying to kill my neighbor interested in something else without having to shoot the animal. That's not bragging pal, that's stating my experience using pepper on large animals. But don't you worry Mr Montana Cowboy Who Knows It All and Feels Qualified to Start Throwing Insults Around, next time I'll just call you and you can hop right out of the sunset and save the day.

[429421Cowboy]

Not gonna get me to start an argument and do a thread hijack over something silly, i never used an insult in any of my posts, you've been looking for a fight throughout this whole thread that nobody will give you. Therefor I choose not to accept your clearly stated mockery and insults. A very fine evening to you sir.

[birddog]

I will tell you that a good friend of mine had the opportunity to encounter a pissed off mama grizzly while elk hunting the SE corner of Yellowstone 4yrs ago and he will be the first to tell you that a whole can of bear spray didn't do squat to deter that old girl and if it wasn't for the guides 44mag at point blank range both of them would probably be dead. Yes the 12 ga slugs are best choice followed by big bore rifles but hell even a 22 would put you out of your misery after they were done chewing on ya.
Charlie:lovebooli

[429421Cowboy]

Personally if i had the choice i'd rather have almost any longgun over a handgun but i carry my .44 because i know i'll have when i need i. In camp we always have a 12 gauge there for the cook (we call all just call her mom) or whoever else needs it. By the time he's in camp he's forfited his bear spray option and is in a world of hurt.

[Jammer Six]

bret4207 has a Golden Boolit award.

Maybe that was his kid on his computer.

[375RUGER]

A poll should be added to this thread:
1. JSP
2. JHP
3. Hard Cast
4. Solid
5. Seasoning spray

:popcorn:

I vote for 3 or 4. I've never seen Bambi. I think for a .44 I'd just prefer penetration in a 300+ grain offering. My brother carried my .44 Super Blackhawk and a .44 Levergun in his bush plane for several years in AK. He was using some semi-custom ammo that someone up there was manufacturing. The ammo was designed just for griz.

[lead chucker]

We have brown bears where I live in Alaska I carry my 44 mag with 310 gr hard lead bullets they are the + p loads. Probably a false sense of security but it's what I got. I also carry pepper spray it might jest deter or stop a charging bear. Better for both parties involved plus my 44 might just make it mad. They are big and really fast like lightning. My wife and I got charged by one while leaving a black bear bait station. It's pretty intense. Believe me when I say they have your total and complete 100% attention.

[lead chucker]

Got one for you guys. Do you know that bear poop looks like?
It has berries and twigs and shiny bells and smells like pepper spray. Ha Ha Ha

[mud lake]

What do you call it when you are both paranoid and scared? An Alaskan who watches his six and keeps firearms at hand, dogs, pepper spray, alarm systems around his camp and makes noise. Not necessarily all at the same time but being aware that one is in bear territory gives a feller a sense of danger that is necessary if you are to survive. Not to be overly dramatic but it is when you forget where you are (Condition White) that you will get yourself in trouble. Come to think of it, that applies to town , village and city as well!

[Bret4207]

Not gonna get me to start an argument and do a thread hijack over something silly, i never used an insult in any of my posts, you've been looking for a fight throughout this whole thread that nobody will give you. Therefor I choose not to accept your clearly stated mockery and insults. A very fine evening to you sir.

I wasn't looking for a fight either. But the words you use in a web posting are important since we cannot see each others faces, hear the tone of our words or read the other body language that goes with what we're saying. I have little confidence that spray will stop a determined bear, dog, bull or boar. I don't know a way to explain my incredulity that anyone would trust "Hope in a Can" more than a gun. Accusing me of "bragging" about my experience in trying to dissuade a riled up Jersey from hurting or killing someone IS insulting. Maybe it was unintentional because you read it differently than I intended, but a simple question as to my motives would have been the better choice rather than tossing insults. Accusing someone of "bragging" about something you disapprove of and implying a lack of knowledge about livestock handling is pretty clear. And just in case the NY thing is flavoring your "west is best" opinion, I'm about 8 hours north of New Yawk in extremely rural country.

[Bret4207]

bret4207 has a Golden Boolit award.

Maybe that was his kid on his computer.

No, Bret just doesn't suffer insulting remarks very well.

[429421Cowboy]

So you misinterpreting my post to somehow get that i think everybody should just toss their guns away and use bear spray is my fault? And also somehow assuming i have some sort of complex about being from the west instead of NY would also be my problem not yours? Yes i do know that not all of NY is NY city, just like not all of NJ is the Shore, and i spent a month out there last summer looking around rural NY, it is just as remote as any place you'd find in Montana so don't think i don't know about NY. Read someone elses post before you respond or get offended please, it will save both of us alot of trouble.

[DLCTEX]

I'll trust my 480 Ruger with 400 gr. Lee cast over pepper spray any day. I wouldn't be surprised at penetration from front to back.

[waksupi]

Knock it off.

[Jammer Six]

I trust bear spray over weapons for exactly the reasons you guys are talking about: spray is faster and much, much easier to carry, deploy and use.

Bear spray usually shoots a large gone, and can saturate an area quite quickly. You don't have to hit anything, you just have to get close. Not even as close as an M67.

You can use bear spray effectively, ruin your drawers, scream in terror and close your eyes, all simultaneously.

Against a charging grizzly, I like weapons that don't have to be aimed.

[Bret4207]

"I trust bear spray over weapons ..." Really? So given the choice between a gun and a can of bear spray for personal protection, you'll always take the bear spray? You'd take your spray to the bad part of town or when there's weird sounds coming from your shed at night? Comon' guys! Sprays fine IF it works. When it doesn't...what then? You guys would really go unarmed with just "Hope in a Can" in bear country or into harms way? And if the winds in his favor and not yours, what then? All you did is blind yourself. BTDT got the tee shirt.

I mean no offense, but saying you'd leave the gun at home and trust a chemical is just not reality to me. I carried spray, a stick, a couple knives, the Glock, sometimes a BU gun , shotgun and a rifle because spray alone doesn't always work on people. Bears are just 10X more determined than people.

No offense to anyone, but even dealing with black bears back here in the east I can't put that much faith in spray.

[waksupi]

If you trust bear spray, you need to spend some more time around bears.