Lee alox

[1bluehorse]

I've read so many posts here (and a couple other places as well) extolling the virtues of Lee alox as a bullet lube. Well, I was convinced enough to give it a try. Cast some 255grainers a couple days ago, (non tumble lube, they actually drop out at 260ish) lubed them as cast (.453) with LLA and shot some of them today. :2gunsfiring_v1: (18 total) I do not think I will be using this stuff anymore... quite a bit of lead in the barrel, streaked from forcing cone to crown. :holysheep With my "normal" sizing and lubing, white label 50/50 I get virtually no leading, just a haze that wipes out with a bore snake..I know you guys like particulars so..the gun today was Ruger 4in RH, cyls have been reamed to .4525, barrel lapped and polished, (a 442 pin guage will slide all the way through, a .443 won't start, so no constrictions) barrel slugs at .451, load was 8.5gr. Unique. BHN is in the 12 range. Tumble lubed them twice before loading. Oh yeah, the LLA is cut about 25% with mineral spirits. Not sure what else to tell ya....well, other than I wasn't impressed..accuracy was fine though. Anyway, back to the Star for me...[smilie=s:

[Larry Gibson]

I wouldn't blame the LLA for not working as you made 2 changes instead of just one, i.e. a different lube.

The 2 changes were;

unsized bullets vs sized and they were larger tan the cylinder throats.

AND you changed the LLA by mixing it with mineral spirits.........


Had you sized the bullets, tumble lubed as per the instructions with straight LLA and then had the leading then I'd say you have a criticism. As it is I'd venture your test was valid only about using unsized bullets instead of sized bullets and dilluted LLA. So is the problem with leading the result of LLA or because you didn't follow that products directions?

I find LLA works very well when used as directed. When dilluted with mineral spirits or used in some formula with JPW or something else and it doesn't work is LLA really the reason?

Larry Gibson

[stubshaft]

I have gotten stellar results with LLA, BUT prefer to to use Felix or other "normal" lubes.

[1bluehorse]

You may have a point there Larry, but pretty much every post I've seen answering the "sticky issue" or more "user friendly" aspect of LLA the popular consensus is to cut it with mineral spirits. So thats why I did that..as far as the bullet being .453 instead of the sized .452 not sure where that would be a problem as I have fired .454 sized bullets with no ill effects. BUT.. I will try a couple more times, using sized bullets (I even have a Lee sizer in .452 thats never been used) and try some "uncut" LLA as per instructions. Personally I think I'm just swingin at the wind, but you've got me curious now...opinions matter.

[williamwaco]

I too have found LLA to be an excellent lube. Excellent but not infallible.

I have tested it in 58 different loads with 15 different bullets in rifles, pistols, and revolvers at velocities from 700 to over 1900 fps with only a couple of failures. If you are interested, you can see the results here:

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/exp_111201a_lla_test.htm


I am quite surprised that the load you describe caused leading. It is very similar to the loads I have been using.

In the beginning, I too diluted the LLA 30% with mineral spirits. It pours and spreads much easier and coats the bullets much quicker and with much less tumbling. But other side of that coin is that during the drying phase about 75% of the LLA coating runs off the bullet onto the waxed paper.
It still works OK but I now use it straight. It takes about three times as long to tumble them and twice as long to dry but the coating is heavier and much more uniform. I just started using this system a few weeks ago so I can't report on whether it improves the lead protection.


.

[geargnasher]

All of you need to try Recluse's formula just once.

Gear

[Bullet Caster]

I agree with geargnasher. I use Recluse's 45/45/10 for all my pistols. Works great. For rifle lube I mix Recluse lube with 50% beeswax and pan lube. Works great. At least it works great for me and as the saying goes...what might work for me might not work for you. My dos centavos worth. BC

[prs]

Well, its hard to beat a Star lube/sizer with a good traditional boolit and good traditional lube. Agree mostly with Larry G. in regard to the failure not being with Lee's product as demonstrated so far. You say you treated them twice and only cast the boolits a couple of days ago. I am not sure of the official insructions, but I can't get it even one thin coat to fully dry in just a couple of days. If I apply a second thin coat to first before that first is fully cured, then I get a gummy coating that won't dry fully even after several days. For use in hotter loads, I suggest a very thin coating let dry. Size it if necessary, then recoat and let dry thoroughly again before loading. In using odorless mineral spirits, I use no more than 10%. I have also tried the Recluse mix and had no trouble with it, but my loads with it were quite mild plinkers.

prs

[MikeS]

I think that cutting it with mineral spirits isn't a problem. I would think that the unsized boolits might be part of the problem. I would lube them with a very thin coating of LLA, then size them, then give them a second thin coating. Many people that try LLA use WAY too much, and that gives them problems with it not drying. LLA works much better when it's dry, so it's important to let them fully dry before sizing them, and again after the second lubing of the sized boolits. When finished, the boolits should have a barely noticeable brownish shade to them, if you can clearly see the LLA on all of the boolit's surfaces you've used way too much.

I've only shot tumble lubed boolits in my PT1911 in 45ACP, but when I did I have zero leading. I have some rifle boolits that are tumble lube stye, but I've yet to get to the outdoor range to shoot them, so I don't know if they'll do as well as my 45 pistol boolits did.

[Larry Gibson]

You may have a point there Larry, but pretty much every post I've seen answering the "sticky issue" or more "user friendly" aspect of LLA the popular consensus is to cut it with mineral spirits. So thats why I did that..as far as the bullet being .453 instead of the sized .452 not sure where that would be a problem as I have fired .454 sized bullets with no ill effects. BUT.. I will try a couple more times, using sized bullets (I even have a Lee sizer in .452 thats never been used) and try some "uncut" LLA as per instructions. Personally I think I'm just swingin at the wind, but you've got me curious now...opinions matter.

As is mentioned LLA is generally good but not "infallable"....nothing is. I've found LLA to work well in a lot of applications but certainly not in all. I've also found it not to work well with some cast bullet designs, especially with certain alloys. Your bullet and alloy could be one.

My point is simply that if I change something with the bullet such as unsized, if I alter the product and if I fail to follow the directions and the product fails I can't blame the product. I'm assuming we're talking 45 Colt here and I've shot numerous Kieth SWC and cowboy style RNFPs TL'd in LLA with the exact same load with no or very minimal leading. Many of those were commercial hardcast with the hard wax (useless) lube that leaded very badly. With the LLA they leaded hardly at all if any. Doesn't lways work but most often does. We'll be interested in the results from your new test to see if there is any difference.

BTW; If you read the threads on the "Boolit Lube" forum you'll see lots of problems many times with 45-45-10 and mostly LLA thinned with mineral spirits. If a thin layer is needed or it gets too gooey for your tases simply soak the bottle for 10-15 minutes in hot water which makes it very runny and "thin". Much better to simply use LLA "straight", IMHO anyway.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

I think the lack of sizing was the biggest factor.
Try this. Tumble lube a few of the same bullets. Run these thru th Star to size only, don't add lube. Give those a second light coat of the LLA. Once dry load and give them a try.

Recluses 45/45/10 formula works very well. You might try it too.

[303british.com]

As someone that doesn't do this too much, I really enjoy reading your responses. This website is a fabulous knowledge base.

As Larry Gibson mentioned, when altering a load from an established original, you should change one thing at a time and observe the result.

What I have gleaned from reading this site is there are so many ways to do things. Different posters have various techniques to cast and lube. It's best to start with one that appeals to you, experiment, and if things don't work out, try another.

One important thing I've noticed is that you do not know how well or poorly someone makes boolits. Are they following the steps correctly? IOW, how's their technique?

Anyway, I don't have anything to help the OP, but wanted to pass along my thanks.

[1bluehorse]

Well thank you all for the advise. Very good also. I'm going to keep at this for awhile, and yes the Star sizing regular bullets is preeeetttttyyy easy but this tumble lubeing thing is much easier and alot faster, although speed isn't really an issue as I'm retired and (hopefully) have plenty of time.

Question for you fellas on the 45-45-10...you're melting down JPW and "cooking" off the ? solvents, or whatever? and basically what you have left is the Carnuba wax right? Then you mix with alox and then thin with 10% mineral spirits, have I got that correct?? My question is, isn't this just basically the same thing as taking the NRA formula ( White Label in my case) of beeswax and alox and adding the mineral spirits, but using Carnuba wax instead of Beeswax...?Just curious...Also, would just plain Carnuba wax work with this formula..I have some of that...(some folks use it on their saddles to shine em' up ) Lot of questions but I know you guys have the answers...........:cast_boolits:

[prs]

BTW; If you read the threads on the "Boolit Lube" forum you'll see lots of problems many times with 45-45-10 and mostly LLA thinned with mineral spirits. If a thin layer is needed or it gets too gooey for your tases simply soak the bottle for 10-15 minutes in hot water which makes it very runny and "thin". Much better to simply use LLA "straight", IMHO anyway.

Larry Gibson



Dang Larry! What are you trying do? Make this easy or something?

I think I will go read those threads, I LIKE easy! Thaniks

prs

[williamwaco]

Well, its hard to beat a Star lube/sizer with a good traditional boolit and good traditional lube. Agree mostly with Larry G. in regard to the failure not being with Lee's product as demonstrated so far. You say you treated them twice and only cast the boolits a couple of days ago. I am not sure of the official insructions, but I can't get it even one thin coat to fully dry in just a couple of days. If I apply a second thin coat to first before that first is fully cured, then I get a gummy coating that won't dry fully even after several days. For use in hotter loads, I suggest a very thin coating let dry. Size it if necessary, then recoat and let dry thoroughly again before loading. In using odorless mineral spirits, I use no more than 10%. I have also tried the Recluse mix and had no trouble with it, but my loads with it were quite mild plinkers.

prs

Two things.

1)
That depends entirely on the weather.

Right now I have some LLA bullets "curing" that are still slightly tacky after two days on the floor in front of a 12 inch fan on medium.

In August, that exact same batch will be dry as the Sahara desert after 4 hours with no feeling of sticky at all.


2)

After about a year's experience with LLA, I have come to the conclusion that thinning it with mineral spirits is not the way to go. I am now using it straight out of the bottle. It takes three times longer to tumble them but the coating is thicker and MUCH more uniform. Drying time is about the same.

.

[popper]

JPW = carnuba wax, micro-crystalline was and who know what mineral spirits. The micro-crystalline was taken out of the original alox. Carnuba is harder(better ?) than bee's wax, so this is a cheap source. A known solvent is put back in. Best I can tell from reading here is that paraffin, bee's wax and canuba wax are the order of waxes in a lube that correspond to pressure/velocity of a CB. I've asked the question here about adding grease, moly, oil to lube and haven't gotten a definitive answer. Some say it makes it too slick, etc. My only experience is that adding petroleum oils make it smoke more, it doesn't ever really dry and it really gunks up the bbl- but no change in leading. Just trying to find how to get, make or buy a GOOD lube. So far, recluse's stuff has worked best for me.

[1bluehorse]

Okay, follow up..as was suggested I sized my boolits that cast at .454 to .452 in a Lee .452 (obviously) sizer. One coat of unthinned/uncut LLA applied before sizing. Applied another coat of unthinned/uncut LLA and let dry. Then another "light" tumble and let dry. They seemed to have a good even coating on them as I was loading them. 18 rounds, 255gr. SWC non-tumble lube type, 8.5gr Unique, CCI primer, starline brass. Same gun as before 4in RH in 45 colt, guns been fluffed and buffed as stated above. Accuracy was excellent, 15 rounds within 2in three "flyers" grouped together, inch high, 2 left. (jerk behind the trigger?) 15 yards..Leading was as before, forcing cone to the end of the barrel, streaked all around. I think if I'd shot 50 or so it would have been pretty ugly. Chore boy cleaned it with about 30 swipes, Hoppes #9, two patches, then 1 dry. Clean.... wish I was getting the same results as so many of you do/have as it is about as easy as it gets for lubing, heck I even like that Lee sizer thing, pretty slick... no I haven't any leading issues with regular lube and sizing...any more ideas? different powder? different bullet? use a different lube....:lol:

[geargnasher]

Bluehorse, one place I've had the most trouble with LLA is in revolvers, except .38 Special with light Bullseye loads. I'd skip it and use real lube unless you want to spend a lot of time dinking with it. Who knows, you might make it work.

Here's the dope on LLA vs. 45/45/10 as I experience it. Yes, you can use LLA straight, and if you put on a light enough coat each time and let them dry, it works ok, sometimes, provided everything else is perfect. Best case, you STILL end up with gummy noses that attract lint, goober up seating dies, chambers, magazines, etc. Now, when you reduce JPW you have basically micro wax, and a hint of carnauba. Add the LLA and cook them together for a while so the micro wax really soaks up the LLA in it's structure, and add some thinner when it cools a bit so it doesn't become too thick to use as a tumble-lube.

When you apply this mix, it actually DRIES, and leaves a fairly hard coating of wax with lots of calcium-based high-pressure lubricant trapped in it's structure. Think of it as high-viscocity, high-pressure, dry grease. It works the same way. The Carnauba helps the finished surface be tack-free, in fact I've been known to add a sprinkle of carnauba flakes to the mix. When you shoot it, it's less smoky than straight LLA and doesn't leave as much ash in the barrel.

What 45/45/10 is NOT is a formula that works in everything, at any velocity, regardless of boolit fit. It has basically the same limitations as straight LLA, or any other tumble lube, for that matter, although it IS better than straight LLA in some guns I've used it in. I don't recall it ever being worse. Your milage, will of course, vary.

Gear

[1bluehorse]

Thanks Gear, I've pretty much came to the conclusion it just ain't gonna work for me in my application...just went out and put the same amount (18) of the same bullet, sized and lubed in the lubrasizer, down the bore, no leading...ran a bore snake through it, clean as new. (well almost) no sence messing with succes. Thanks to all for the help and suggestions. Got a few bottles of LLA if anybody needs it....

[DrCaveman]

FWIW, I have used only LLA in my short casting career (about 1000 boolits). I just followed the directions, and also took heed to the advice that 'a little goes a long way.'. Microwaving the bottle for 10-15 seconds, then shaking it, prevented any surprise plops, so I could keep the coatings thin. One light coat before sizing, let dry overnight. Size, recoat, let dry overnight. Then load away.

No leading, shooting home cast 14-16 bhn 158 gr tips. Light load: 2.5 gr trail boss, heavy load 13.3 gr 2400. I think velocity range was about 600 fps to 1100 fps, pressure variance was probably 15000 psi to about 30000 psi. Not to toot my horn, but I don't think LLA is causing any problems. I would like to get to the bottom of your issue, so I know when to STOP using LLA, if I will need to at all.

I did find a buildup on my seating die that had caused a few boolits to seat deeper than I wanted before I caught it. The buildup was mostly blue. I also have been using a lot of MBC tips. I did not notice any buildup, however, until after I had been loading cartridges with my home cast LLA lubed boolits. Still, the buildup was not brown like the alox. Maybe the two compounds don't get along well?

Hey, if you really don't want the LLA I will gladly take it. Not sure how soon I'll need it since after 1000 boolits, I still have 2/3 of my first bottle left. But I am in central Oregon, not too far. I'll pay shipping.

[mpmarty]

I use my mixture of 50% LLA and 50% JPW without any mineral spirits. I heat the LLA on the stove in a tin can and when hot spoon in the JPW and stir until dissolved. I then decant into old mustard bottle with a squirt top and store it over my bench. This mix dries hard over night and works very well in 45acp, 10mm, 45/ 70 and 308 as well as in my 7.5 Swiss. Bores look like mirrors after just one dry patch.

[MikeS]

... Question for you fellas on the 45-45-10...you're melting down JPW and "cooking" off the ? solvents, or whatever? and basically what you have left is the Carnuba wax right? Then you mix with alox and then thin with 10% mineral spirits, have I got that correct?? My question is, isn't this just basically the same thing as taking the NRA formula ( White Label in my case) of beeswax and alox and adding the mineral spirits, but using Carnuba wax instead of Beeswax...? ...

No, it would not be the same as the NRA formula. First off, cooking down the JPW doesn't give you just carnauba wax, it's actually a few different kinds of wax. Secondly, all Alox is not the same. The NRA formula uses Alox 2138F which is a stiff wax like substance, but the Alox in LLA is a different number, and is liquid, and the 2 are NOT interchangable. While it sounds strange cooking off mineral spirits, only to add them back, the reason is that it's a lot harder to cook off only a certain amount of the spirits so that there's still enough in the final product, it's easier to cook off most all the spirits, then add back the needed amount.

[357shooter]

I use my mixture of 50% LLA and 50% JPW without any mineral spirits. I heat the LLA on the stove in a tin can and when hot spoon in the JPW and stir until dissolved. I then decant into old mustard bottle with a squirt top and store it over my bench. This mix dries hard over night and works very well in 45acp, 10mm, 45/ 70 and 308 as well as in my 7.5 Swiss. Bores look like mirrors after just one dry patch.

I use the same process. Some guns and loads like almost pure LLA, some work with pure JPW. The current favorite is JPW/LLA, 3/1. Dries nice, shoots great.

Heat it enough to make it liguid, , stir and you are done.