Newbie questions

[shooter1059]

Hi every body. I have been lurking and learning for the last couple of years until I was able to collect all the lead and equipment I needed to get going making my own lead bullets.
Here's the questions I have if anybody can help answer them. I had my first range test of the loaded bullets I had cast and loaded today. First question, I was shooting at 25 yards and had two rounds key hole out of ten. Granted they were in the 10 ring but it still bothers me as to why they key holed? My copper jacketed bullets don't do that. The second question is why does my barrel look dirtier after ten rounds than the same amount of jacketed bullets? Is it just a dirtier powder or leading? By the way, what does leading look like in the barrel. Please excuse me if the questions sound stupid.
Here are the particulars to hopefully help answer my questions. I was using a Lee six cavity tumble lube mold. I was using cleaned scrap range lead for my bullet alloy that tested at about an 11 on the hardness scale. They weighed in at 180 grains. I tumble lubed them with the liquid alox, and loaded them on top of 4.5 grains of Bullseye powder. They Chrono'ed between 878 and 908 for ten rounds. My testing was done with a Smith and Wesson M&P .40 cal.
Hope you all can help me figure this out.

[ku4hx]

Further reading here http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm will answer many questions. The section on leading is superior to all I've ever read.

Cast boolits are lubricated; jacketed bullets are not. The lube leaves residue in the bore. A bit like wiping a used hamburger spatula across your hand; the stuff just smears off.

"Keyholing" can be caused by a number of things chief among them for boolit casters is improper boolit fit to bore ... boolit undersized. That situation can be exacerbated by too-low muzzle velocity.

[canyon-ghost]

Be sure that all copper residue is out of the barrel and reciever before using cast, it can end up a seriously bad mess! Sometimes the copper will attract the lube and lead, it all turns into a sludge that's hard to dissolve.

[Wayne Smith]

Key holing is also caused by an unstable boolit, either the wrong size (usually too long) for the rifling twist or shot too slow.

[Mk42gunner]

When you say "keyholing" do you mean a full sideways profile of the bollit; or is it jsut a ragged hole in the target paper? I find it difficult to believe that a projectile that turns and tumbles a full 90 degrees in side of 25 yards is accurate enough to hit the ten ring of a target.

What was the diameter of the bullets prior to tumble lubing?

Robert

[popper]

Sound like SIZE. Slug the bbl and mic the bullets. TC or SWC bullet? boolit filled out completely? The TC has a large nose that can be dented on cycling in SA.

[shooter1059]

The target shows a side ways bullet profile. Classic key hole. The bullets mic out between .402 and .403. I will try cleaning the barrel again and then slug it. Also, do you really think 890 fps is too slow for the lee tumble lube 180 grain bullet? Thanks for all the reply's so far.

[StratsMan]

Also, what gun and what barrel??? Some 40's are button rifled, some are polygonal... Is there an aftermarket barrel in the gun??? Etc, Etc....

[Lizard333]

Next question, have you slugged your barrel?? I would also take a loaded round that you have seated and crimped and pull it and check to make sure you are not sizing your boolet down, hence the poor accuracy.

Dirty barrels are a common thing with lead rounds as you are now dealing with the lube that is fouling your barrel. Some lubes are cleaner than others. I personally am not a big tumble lube fan so I size and lube all my rounds with Carnuba Red. Leaves the barrel clean and shinny.

[Cherokee]

You used range lead, it may be too soft. Try adding some wheel weights or lino to harden it up some. I found with my 9mm that a slightly harder bullet alloy eliminated the keyholing I was getting.

[shooter1059]

The gun in question is a S&W M&P 4.2" barrel. It is a stock barrel. I have not checked a loaded round yet to see if the die's have sized it down on me yet. And yes, I agree that a bullet key holing in the 10 ring at 25 yards is odd. The funny thing is that with all the other problems the loads were fairly accurate.
I don't have any harder lead to use but I can try to add some tin and maybe water quench them.

[sledgehammer001]

Shooter, you may try adding some rolled solder, maybe some 50/50. I had trouble with my Lee TL 41 mag leading my Blackhawk until I raised my BHN to about 15. I use modified alloy from Wheel Weights, + 2% tin. I push mine around 1200 fps, plain base, Lee liquid alox, sized .002" over bore diameter. Lots of good advice posted already...

[shooter1059]

Well Gents,
I pulled a bullet out of a loaded case today and low and behold the bullet measured .397 thanks to the LFCD. Just like you all said would happen. The bullet started out at .402. So where do I go from here? Do I order an RCBS crimp die or does Lee make a crimp die with out the carbide sizing ring in it?
Thanks for all the help so far.

[jeepguy242]

why crimp at all, the case mouth tension should be enough to hold the bullet in, gust use the seating die to remove the flare you put on the case mouth, i don't crimp for either 9mm or 45acp and they work fine.

[Grandpas50AE]

why crimp at all, the case mouth tension should be enough to hold the bullet in, gust use the seating die to remove the flare you put on the case mouth, i don't crimp for either 9mm or 45acp and they work fine.

What he said for crimp. Most semi-autos, including the 40S&W headspace on the case mouth, so just remove the bell of the expander. Most of us that reload for this type of cartrdige use a taper crimp die to just remove the bell and return the case mouth to its straight condition after the boolit is seated.

[44magLeo]

From my experience and from reading others experiences, the LFCD for straight walled cases don't work well. Bottle neck cases work great.
If your Lee die set for 40 S&W is like mine for 44 Mag then it has four dies. One full length sizer, one expander, one to seat and crimp, and the FCD die. Just don't use the FCD, use the seat crimp die.
Leo

[jeepguy242]

i have found that even on my AR-10 in .308 that accuracy degraded after using the FCD. with the rounds not crimped, i could hold a .35 group at 100 yards, even with the slightest amount of crimp that same load opened up to .6

i tried experimenting with different amounts of force on the crimp, but just kept getting erratic groupings, i came to the conclusion that unless your case mouth is so loose that the rounds slip back into the cartridge crimp is unnecessary.

even if they do slip back into the mouth of the case, there are better ways to correct this problem, the best being to turn down the expander ball in the sizing die.

after reading several posts on the long range shooting forums, many people have had this exact same problem.

[shooter1059]

Ok Guys,
I will chuck the FCD and just use the seating die to remove the flare on the brass and see what happens. This is a great site! Thanks again for everybody's input and help.