I'm making a new .475 cherry

[44man]

This is my el-cheapo setup for cutting flutes. The brass plate is held to the cherry with a setscrew and has six holes in the outer edge. I have a pin in the rear vise jaw to index each hole as I cut flutes.

[Buckshot]

..............El Cheapo doesn't mean bad :D If it works it's as good as a B&S dividing head. Long ago I tried to make a mould cherry. Humbling experience it was.

.............Buckshot

[Catshooter]

As long as those six holes are accuratly placed, it don't matter. It's the idea as some very expensive and large dividing heads I've seen. Motor on!


Cat

[HTRN]

Anybody ever thought of grinding on a used up tap for a cherry? The reason I ask is because I have access to a cylinder grinder.


HTRN

[Willbird]

Actuallyit might be better if the flutes are NOT evenly spaced, almost all reamers are made just like that on purpose to break up harmonic vibrations, the book "Modern Gunsmith" explains how to make reamers, and as I recall reccomennds "throwing off" the flute spacing by moving the dividing head several holes more and less than the required amount on each index. I believe MR 44 Man is backing his cherry's off by hand so indifferant spacing will not cause him probems, and will result in a better tool for the job IMHO

I really need to make a cherrying device.........When I do I think I will make extra right/left screws.

Bill

[Magnum Mike]

Cool lookin set up.

Give us some details on the boolit that cherry is gonna cut! I not only have a encore barrel in 475 now but a 6" BFR too! Still shootin the Lee 400 RNFP.

[slughammer]

I remember you were using aluminum for your mold blocks. Could you tell us what dia you were cutting the cherry and what you hoped for from your cast diameter? Looks great - Slughammer

[44man]

Its a copy of the LBT WFN that weighs 392 grs. A friend sent me some and I put 5 in 5/8" at 50 yds. Went back and shot five more and the group opened up to only a tad over an inch. Decided I need a mold.
The diameter is going to be iffy until I cut a mold to see what happens. I cut the cherry to .4793 and hope it drops a boolit at .476 to .4765. I will keep you posted when I finish the mold. I have two sets of blocks made except for the handle slots and a few holes. Soon as I pin them I will cut the cavities.

[44man]

I finished the mold and made some boolits. They came out at 411 grs. They are not as accurate as I wanted but every powder charge I tried made the same size groups at 50 yd's. Every group from 24.5 to 27 grs. of 296 measured a tad less then 2" It cuts a tremendous hole in the paper and would knock a deer silly.
I tried the LBT many times with the same results and think the 5/8" group was a one time happening. I should have shot the WFN more before making this mold but ran out of them. The WLN is much more accurate. But now I have a choice between 3 boolits.

[slughammer]

Beautiful looking mold. How did you end up for the as cast dia?

[44man]

It came out right at .476. I kind of wanted .4765 but it's OK. Each time I make a cherry, I learn more. I have to cut them different to make them cut better too. I think dropping the mill .010" to .015" below center when I cut the flutes will make a sharper edge. Oh well, got nothing else to do except shooting anyway.

[Catshooter]

Mr. 44Man,

I have been thinking about making my own cherrying vise. And then of course, some cherries and then moulds and then more cherries...

It don't never end, do it?

Would you care to share what you've learned? What size to make the cherry, how much pressure the vise needs to develope, just anything and everything.

What would you do differently?

You could post it as a thread, and then you or others could add to it as we learn.

Thanks for your help.


Cat

[Buckshot]

...........There was a double acting Palmgren vise on E-bay last week that went for $282. Kurt has one but they'd like to get about $1100 for it!

If I was going to cherry cut moulds I'd sure think about making a double acting vise. The blocks only need to close from maybe 1" apart and you wouldn't HAVE to have the more expensive acme rod for it, once center was established anyway. They'd close there at the same time regardless, and that's what you'd want.

Rather then cutting acme threads in the jaws for the threaded rod, use captured acme nuts. They make flanged ones that could be merely placed in holes in each visejaw and then attached via screws through the flanges. The 2 moveable jaws could be carried on four 1" rods via 1" long bronze bushings. The bushing length would help to keep the jaws from tilting. Also the blocks don't have to be crushed together, but merely be in firm contact sufficient to allow the cherry to be equally supported so it won't want to flex.

An idea, anyway.

...............Buckshot

[44man]

catshooter, sorry I didn't get back to you. I am computer illiterate and I just built this fast one for myself. Bought the wrong chip for the mother board and had to buy another board. Runs at 3 gigs now.
As for the vise, it takes very little pressure to cut blocks. The handle is hard to turn because I keep the gibs tight. I don't want any play. I feel the finer threads on the screw gives me more control. Acme threads would be OK, but are courser. My handle threads are 7/16-20. I keep it well oiled.
The only thing I need to do different is to make better cutting edges on the cherries. It's hard with an end mill. I figure if I put the cutting edge of the mill .010" to .015" below center I will get a better edge. Have to be careful because I have to file to the boolit point and meet up with the opposite cutting edge. Then the rub area has to be very small. I file those back until I am almost to the cutting edge. Once in a while I get a cherry that will stop cutting when I am half way in. I have to take it out and hand grind the rub area more. Cherries are the hardest part. I have no way to lathe bore a mould with the Smithy without spending more money that I don't have. Sure would be nice to have a CNC machine but I get stuff working cheap.
Cherry size seems to differ with boolit diameter. For the .475 I need a larger starting diameter then for a .44 or .45 due to more shrinkage of the lead. This is something you have to work out for the block material you use. Be prepared to waste a few cherries and blocks. Most of mine have been in the ball park and shoot good.
I cut and polish my .44's to .433 to .4335 and the .475 to .4793 to .4795, for aluminum blocks. Make sure you cut a few thousandths larger to allow for polishing. Keep measuring as you polish and stop at the right size even if there are a few fine cutter marks left.
I have made a pile of molds so far and it has only cost a few cents for each. Oil hardening drill rod is only around $5 for 3 feet and you will use 3" for a cherry. I am still using some aluminum scrap I got free. Stainless for my sprue plates came out of a trash bin. The screws, pins and setscrews only cost pennies. I use Rapine handles and just switch from blocks to blocks. I have 3 because they only cost $14. Great handles and they only take a 3/16 slot in the blocks.
Hope this helps.

[Catshooter]

Buckshot,

Thanks for the info. I agree that the vise is the key. I'm planning on making one. I've drawn up a vise that would use a very fine thread and the jaws would ride in a dove tail. I agree, a one inch travel should be lots.

44Man,

Yes, thank you that is just what I had in my tiny little mind. I don't think I want the acme thread as it's seems way to coarse to me. I think I'll turn a rod of my own. I'm thinking a very fine thread and something like.625 OD or so.

I want to use brass or bronze for my blocks. I like it much better than AL.

If you think of anything else I should know, let me know and thanks again.


Cat

[HTRN]

Does anybody here have a pic or diagram of how a cherrying vise works?

What I don't understand is how it holds the individual blocks as it puts them together over the cherry.


HTRN

[Buckshot]

...........I've never seen one before myself. I would think that in a production scenario the blocks would have to be easily put in place and removed. What I'm thinking is that the blocks could very well be held in some type of fixture beforehand, and then the entire fixture is removed and replaced in the vise along with the mould blocks.

I imagine the spindle holding the cherrying reamer doesn't move, except to spin the cherry. Also then I suppose the vise doesn't move either. Just the jaws moving in and then back away. Naturally for multiple cavities the vise is most likely on a table similar to a milling machine, so it may advance for each cavity.

I don't know, but it would seem easier to place the blocks in some kind of intermediate holding device rather then trying to work around a spindle and a bunch of chips and coolant to setup the blocks in the actual vise. Very possibly a worker may have a supply of these matched 'sub jaws' that are kind of like a vise themsevles, only clamping from the side with only minimal adjustment possible.

Maybe each fixture jaw is set in a jig facing it's partner and a block half is placed in each and then tightened down, while a DI reads from either side. A person with a bit of practice could do several a minute. Then the paired up jaws are ready to go into the vice on the machine?

Just guessing here, but whatever it is, the pulling and placement can't be any big drawn out process.

..............Buckshot

[floodgate]

Does anybody here have a pic or diagram of how a cherrying vise works?

What I don't understand is how it holds the individual blocks as it puts them together over the cherry.


HTRN

HTRN, Buckshot:

If you've got or can borrow a copy of the 1973 Second Edition of the Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook", there's a short article with rather heavily retouched photos on pp. 12-13 on "How a Bullet Mould is Made". Two of the photos give a glimpse of the vise and holding fixtures for drilling the alignment pins and for the cherrying operation, but don't really provide any detail. But didn't someone build a DA cherrying vise a couple of years back and wrote it up on one of the previous CB Boards? Might be worth an Archive search.

floodgate

[44man]

Htrn, I took a picture of how the blocks are held. I don't have the camera stuff loaded yet in this new computer and as soon as I do I will put in the picture.
I first tighten the vise jaws snugly on the blocks, then I put a couple of aluminum pieces on the sides of them and have two cap screws that go against these pieces. I tighten them very tight. These hold the individual blocks in place. I never remove the blocks until the cavities are finished. To de-burr, I open the jaws and reach in with a flat stick that has fine emory attached with two sided tape. I will de-burr 2 or 3 times. The last just as the blocks are almost closed. I keep flushing the blocks when they are close to being closed. At first, I just cut dry with a shop vac sucking out the chips.

[44man]

OK, fellas, I got the computer done and loaded the picture stuff. Here is the way I hold the blocks in

[Buckshot]

...........Sure looks good to me!

..........Buckshot

[Frank46]

There was an article in anedition of the cast bullet association "fouling shot" last year or so. The gentleman who authored the article described how he went about machining
his own double acting vise for holding the mould blocks while cutting the cavities. Maybe a search of their articles would turn up the article in question. Frank