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Josh Smith
02-21-2012, 03:52 PM
Hello,

I'm trying to remember something from years back.

The lube I use keeps leading from sticking. A bore snake cleans it right out, but it's still somewhat irritating.

1911, 5" barrel. Leading in the first 1/4" of the rifling or so. Lead is relatively hard, though I've taken to adding a pound or so of pure lead to 3lbs of wheel weights and range lead.

Load is 200grn SWC under 5.6 grains Win231. Published velocity is 914fps. I do not have a chronograph. Seems every time I have the money I don't think about it.

I had this problem a few years back. I think I solved it by going to about 50% lead and a faster powder -- Bullseye I think.

Am I thinking right? Obturation is not taking place early enough and I need to go to up the pure lead? I figure I shoot .22LR at about 1200fps and get no leading, and they're only lubed with beeswax and graphite.

What mixture of lead do you use for the .45acp and other rounds going 700 to 900fps?

I've always thought these were a bit hard, and the lube I developed and use is only there as a backup so I don't have to spend hours cleaning the barrel. I use solder on my sights and on electrical devices. I'd rather keep it out of my pistol barrel!

Thanks,

Josh

Iron Mike Golf
02-21-2012, 04:00 PM
How does your bullet size compare to groove diameter? Have you measured bullet diameter before and after seating and crimping?

I shoot a 452460, lubed wioth Carnauba Red in both grooves, over 5.0 gr Bullseye. No leading in my Series 80. My alloy is 92-4-4. Both air cooled and water dropped shoot the same.

BulletFactory
02-21-2012, 04:19 PM
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

Josh Smith
02-21-2012, 04:20 PM
Hello,

I have a feeling my alloy is harder than 92-4-4. Hard to scratch with my thumbnail. A gent on here offered to test it for me and I'm mailing them out here in a couple days.

I had been playing around with hardcast lead balls for my muzzleloaders. Wanted to see how penetration increased (if it did) and cast a bunch up with Linotype. Have a feeling a lot of that Linotype made its way into the current mixtures.

Everything is textbook; boolits are 0.452" and the barrel slugs out to 0.451 or a shade under. (I measure 0.4505, but I also allow a 0.005 leeway for human error. Just a bit of difference in pressure on those calipers will fluctuate them that much.)

Thanks,

Josh

williamwaco
02-21-2012, 04:20 PM
I cast .45ACP bullets from what ever I have on hand. Usually range scrap at around BNH 9 or clip on wheel weights at BNH 13, I occasionally add a little lino for the tin. Those come out at around BNH 15.

I have used three different 200 gr SWCs at 800 to 900 fps and have never had any leading problems with any of them.

I would suspect either bullet fit or hard lube.

Size to .452 and tumble them in LLA.

If you already have a bunch lubed with a different lube, just pick out a couple of handfuls and re-lube them. Don't worry about the existing lube, just lube over it.

See:

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/lla_bullet_lube_2.htm

for a story about re-lubing with LLA.


.

BulletFactory
02-21-2012, 04:27 PM
It shouldnt take hours to clean, 3 or 4 minutes perhaps.

Get some (pure) copper chore boy, and wrap it around a bore brush so that it takes a bit of effort to run it through the bore. Scrub out the lead, it comes out pretty easily.

Then, with a different brush, wrap 000 steel wool around it, and douse it wit a good copper solvent. Should stink like ammonia, enough to choke you up. I like BARNES CR-10.

Rinse thoroughly.

Put a bit of oil on some white patches, then run a few of those through the bore. When they come out white, run a couple dry ones through the bore.

I like to lightly oil a wad of paper towel, and run it through a clean bore, just to protect it, and "pre-lube" the first shot so that it isnt going down a dry bore. I dont know if it really does any good, but until I find out otherwise, thats how I clean a barrel.

Josh Smith
02-21-2012, 04:28 PM
I cast .45ACP bullets from what ever I have on hand. Usually range scrap at around BNH 9 or clip on wheel weights at BNH 13, I occasionally add a little lino for the tin. Those come out at around BNH 15.

I have used three different 200 gr SWCs at 800 to 900 fps and have never had any leading problems with any of them.

I would suspect either bullet fit or hard lube.

Size to .452 and tumble them in LLA.

If you already have a bunch lubed with a different lube, just pick out a couple of handfuls and re-lube them. Don't worry about the existing lube, just lube over it.

See:

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/lla_bullet_lube_2.htm

for a story about re-lubing with LLA.


.

Thank you, but I hate LLA. It leaded worse than anything I've tried.

I'm thinking I need to go softer on the lead. One thing at a time.

Does true leading come out as easily as I described? Could be that my current lube, which contains about 50% graphite, is the culprit. Could be over-lubed with it and might just be ashing up the barrel...

I'll bump up the lead content and see what happens. Would also love to find a way to tumble lube a thin film of beeswax... that would be most awesome!

Thanks,

Josh

captaint
02-21-2012, 04:35 PM
Joshua - I can what I do with success (no leading). Softer and slower. Unless you're hitting those velocities on purpose, try 4.6 of 231. I always cast 50 WW and 50 softer lead. Try that. enjoy Mike

Josh Smith
02-21-2012, 04:35 PM
It shouldnt take hours to clean, 3 or 4 minutes perhaps.

Get some (pure) copper chore boy, and wrap it around a bore brush so that it takes a bit of effort to run it through the bore. Scrub out the lead, it comes out pretty easily.

Then, with a different brush, wrap 000 steel wool around it, and douse it wit a good copper solvent. Should stink like ammonia, enough to choke you up. I like BARNES CR-10.

Rinse thoroughly.

Put a bit of oil on some white patches, then run a few of those through the bore. When they come out white, run a couple dry ones through the bore.

I like to lightly oil a wad of paper towel, and run it through a clean bore, just to protect it, and "pre-lube" the first shot so that it isnt going down a dry bore. I dont know if it really does any good, but until I find out otherwise, thats how I clean a barrel.

Hello,

It comes out clean with a clean boresnake -- I don't even have to use solvent if I don't want to. Just flakes out.

Thanks,

Josh

Iron Mike Golf
02-21-2012, 05:46 PM
Josh, that sounds like maybe it's just antimony wash. Fire 100+ without punching your bore. Does the residue build up thicker and thicker? If not, then it's antimony wash. Nothing to worry about.

ColColt
02-21-2012, 05:58 PM
I've had great success with leading using BHN10-12 in several 45's. They just don't lead. I always use .452" as most barrels check out about .451". BAC is the lube I use and it's been superb.

Josh Smith
02-21-2012, 06:21 PM
Josh, that sounds like maybe it's just antimony wash. Fire 100+ without punching your bore. Does the residue build up thicker and thicker? If not, then it's antimony wash. Nothing to worry about.

Hello,

No, it just blows out. What is antimony wash? Like copper washing a lead bullet?

How do you copper wash a lead bullet anyway? I know that's a bit off subject...

Never heard of antimony wash :?:


I've had great success with leading using BHN10-12 in several 45's. They just don't lead. I always use .452" as most barrels check out about .451". BAC is the lube I use and it's been superb.

Figured out an awesome way to coat with beeswax embedded with a bit of graphite. Here's to hoping I can get a few out and fired to see what happens. This coating is not thick at all -- in fact, it doesn't look like it's there but it sure is!

Regards,

Josh

felix
02-21-2012, 06:23 PM
Coppering a barrel, leading a barrel, antimonying a barrel, etc. ... felix

Josh Smith
02-21-2012, 06:54 PM
Well, the .22 rimfire lube type stuff seems to be working about as well as the other, and it just functions better to boot.

This is shaping up to be a very nice load...

Melt beeswax, pan lube, shake off excess, throw in tumbler for 1/2 hour with powdered graphite.

Not a heck of a lot harder than regular tumble lubing and much better results.

I'm officially not a fan of antimony. Buying pure lead right now! Tin will be added to help flow.

Thanks!

Josh

williamwaco
02-21-2012, 11:25 PM
The more I read of your descriptions and the ease with which you are removing it makes me think it is not leading at all but some other fowling. Of course, it could be some unknown factor that just prevents the lead from sticking. ( This is speculation, I have never heard of anything like this. )

Here are some excellent photos of barrel leading.
Is this what you are seeing?

http://reloadingtips.com/pages/index-leading_problems.htm

Be sure and note the dirty patch in the upper left corner of the page.
When you clean, do you see actual lead chips like these comming out?


.

RobS
02-21-2012, 11:41 PM
Looking at the pics you put up just below it appears to be leading to me. Leading at the beginning of the barrel is often times caused by either a bullet that is undersized or by a bullet skidding the lands. If you slugged the bore and a pulled boolit after seating/crimping yields a diameter .001-.002 over groove diameter than you don't need obturation, the boolit already fits the bore.

If your pulled boolit is undersized then a softer boolit punched in the backend with a quick high energy powder such as bullseye can bump up the base and seal the bore off. WW alloyed boolits can be swagged down in the case during reloading, in particular if they haven't sat and aged (hardened) for a few days to a week or so prior to reloading, and then simply be too hard to obturate and seal the first part of the barrel.

I've taken fresh cast WW boolits and loaded them for a 45 auto that day and shot them shortly after loading and everything went ok, but the same assembled loads shot the next weekend leaded the lands and first 1/2" of the barrel.

I've played this game in the past and pulling a boolit and measuring can save you time.

Josh Smith
02-22-2012, 01:37 AM
Hello,

I would consider it between mild and moderate.

I took some macro images. The image below, when clicked, will take you to a huge macro. It is 6mB. 56k users beware!

Before clicking, please note that I had some leading issues with Lee Lube Alox. I never cleaned it all out. I no longer use mercury as the cost to use it safely is not worth the occasional use, and a brush didn't take it out.

No additional leading has been noted anyplace. It almost looks like, under magnification, that I have some factory chatter marks ringing the barrel at a little above the leade. What do you think?


http://www.smith-sights.com/resources/leading_sm.jpg (http://www.smith-sights.com/resources/1911_leading/leading.jpg)
Clicky for ginormous pic!

Do you see what I mean by possible chatter marks? I need to get that ring of lead out to see for sure.

The barrel and pistol are accurate as all get-out and I don't want to mess it up by running abrasive **** down the barrel, or I would have firelapped it by now.

Good news is that this ring is not growing. It's just been there since the Lee Alox days. I hate that stuff!

Do you see the distinct beginning and end of the leading? Is it just me?

Took these pics and now I'm even more confuzzled. Only answer I seem to have is chatter marks -- this coming from a less-than-expert-only-wanna-shoot-cheap-and-accurately casting background and a trained 1911 etc. gunsmith background (no license as I don't want to deal with the feds this point in my life -- just the training and lots of practice).

Coming from this background, I consult you as experienced experts (compared to me, anyway!)

Thanks,

Josh

noylj
02-22-2012, 02:18 AM
This could be put on a sticky or have any leading questions directed to From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners© by Glen E. Fryxell

Here is the short treatise:
1) what is the groove diameter of the barrel and what diameter are the bullets? 2) where is the leading? A clue to what is causing the leading is where the leading first begins to appear. If it appears near the chamber, chances are that bullet diameter or hardness are the cause. A diameter too small or an alloy too hard will allow high pressure gas to leak past the bullet, which erodes the bullet and leaves leading near the chamber. If the leading first appears on the leading edge of the rifling (if you imagine the bullet being pushed through the barrel, you will note that one edge of the rifling does most of the work of imparting a spin to the bullet. This is the edge you see when you look through the barrel from the breech end), the bullet might be too soft or the velocity too high. If the leading appears in the second (front) half of the barrel, the bullet is running out of lube. You should see a star shaped pattern of lube accumulate on the muzzle. This is an indication that there is a little excess lube.

geargnasher
02-22-2012, 03:55 AM
Josh, I second what Noylj said, and if you haven't read the link Bulletfactory posted, please do. I noticed the "leading edge" fouling too, but it could just be flakes being raked up and impacted into the leading edge of the lands by following shots.

I'd start by removing ALL of that fouling, and then go after the copper fouling underneath it. Once you get the barrel 100% clean, try it again.

Lead rubs off and sticks to copper like crazy just from abrasion. Lead also sticks to lead. That is NOT antimony "wash", although it might have a good bit of antimony in it. You might not have an obturation/gas cutting issue at all, but copper fouling that is grabbing lead.

One more thing, although your chamber doesn't seem to be too terribly afflicted by it, lack of throat can literally shave the first driving band rather than swage it into the bore, leaving lead flecks which get ironed on the first bit of the barrel regardless of anything else you do. Just mentioning it, I don't think this is happening here, I just think you started with a fouled barrel and it got worse.

Gear

shootinxd
02-22-2012, 07:44 AM
That looks like the same problem I had just a couple months ago.I feel your pain!I started all from scratch.Reset my seating die,then to just a LIGHT crimp to iron things out to just fit the chamber.Went to a slower powder and am using Carnuba Red.Now life is good.Have you pulled and measured your boolit from a loaded round?

williamwaco
02-22-2012, 05:32 PM
I agree, those are definitly leading.


Sure would like to keep this going until you figure it out and enlighten us.



.

Josh Smith
02-22-2012, 08:31 PM
Hello,

I'm working on it.

Probably will start with a Lewis Lead Remover and take out what's been there for years.

I have 20lbs of pure lead on order, and I will start with that plus a bit of tin in a clean barrel. The lube will be beeswax and a bit of graphite.

What I'm not understanding is the accuracy: At 15 yards to 25 yards I'm knocking twigs off trees. The 5.6grns of Win231 driving this 200 grain bullet makes for an excellent load.

But leading and precision usually do not go together.

Might just get some Chore Boy and risk folks thinking I'm on crack... we'll see!

Thanks,

Josh