impact slug diagnostics - educate me

[brotherdarrell]

Evening gentlemen,

Following are three pics of three different rifles, all Rem. 788's. They are a .222, 22-250 and a .308. I hope the pics are good enough for an autopsy of the throats.

The .222 starts @ .238 for appr. .050" then tapers abruptly to .225". The barrel itself routinely slugs at a hair over .224"

The 22-250 starts @ .225 and tapers to .224" which is what the barrel slugs. The rifling starts almost where the taper ends.

The .308 starts @ .309" at the start and the barrel slugs @ .308". Near as I can tell the rifling starts .020" from the end of the case.

A few notes regarding shooting boolits from these to date. The .222 has been frustrating to say the least. I have sniffed 1" groups a few times @ 50 yds, and @ 100 yds most groups have been 3" and up with one lonely 5 shot group of 1 1/2". I have read beagles articles several times and follow to a tee, yet here I am. I will also note that all molds but my bator throw boolits no larger than .225, and that only with straight ww.

THe 22-250 is to new to know much yet, but shows some possibilities with 225383.

The .308 shows a lot of promise, if I can get rid of fliers which are plaguing me much above 1700 - 1800 fps.

So there it is. I would appreciate any and all ideas and suggestions. Please educate me.

brotherdarrell

ps - most measurements were taken with a micrometer double checked against my gunsmiths high dollar digital:-D

[DLCTEX]

The .222 in the 788 may have a 1 in 14 twist and may do best with a 225-438 boolit. The small 22 cal. are hard to cast well and you need to cull any imperfections. Gas checks must be seated square on square bases and a good lube is required. The 225-438 worked well for me and then I got a Bator mould and one initial load showed promise. Unfortunately I seem to have not recorded that load and have had some dismal results since, but copper fouling may be the problem. I need to work more on it. Mine is a Rem. 722.

[swheeler]

Evening gentlemen,

Following are three pics of three different rifles, all Rem. 788's. They are a .222, 22-250 and a .308. I hope the pics are good enough for an autopsy of the throats.

The .222 starts @ .238 for appr. .050" then tapers abruptly to .225". The barrel itself routinely slugs at a hair over .224"

The 22-250 starts @ .225 and tapers to .224" which is what the barrel slugs. The rifling starts almost where the taper ends.

The .308 starts @ .309" at the start and the barrel slugs @ .308". Near as I can tell the rifling starts .020" from the end of the case.

A few notes regarding shooting boolits from these to date. The .222 has been frustrating to say the least. I have sniffed 1" groups a few times @ 50 yds, and @ 100 yds most groups have been 3" and up with one lonely 5 shot group of 1 1/2". I have read beagles articles several times and follow to a tee, yet here I am. I will also note that all molds but my bator throw boolits no larger than .225, and that only with straight ww.

THe 22-250 is to new to know much yet, but shows some possibilities with 225383.

The .308 shows a lot of promise, if I can get rid of fliers which are plaguing me much above 1700 - 1800 fps.


BD; I think it would be worth setting the 222 barrel back and rechambering to 222 OR rechamber to 223 without setting barrel back. The 223 reamer should just clean up errosion in front of your chamber.

So there it is. I would appreciate any and all ideas and suggestions. Please educate me.

brotherdarrell

ps - most measurements were taken with a micrometer double checked against my gunsmiths high dollar digital:-D

BD; I think it would be worth setting the 222 barrel back and rechambering to 222 OR rechamber to 223 without setting barrel back. The 223 reamer should just clean up errosion in front of your chamber.

[runfiverun]

the 22-250 should be pretty easy to get to shoot well.
i'd bet that the rcbs 22-055 sp with the front drive band seated out of the case to fill that gap would do very well.
i use an alloy of 4% tin and 6% antimony in my 22's
the 308 might just need to be waterdropped.
seat it out of the case enough to fill that .020 gap and try sizing to .310
make sure the nose is engraving in the rifling if you are using a bore rider.
the 222 has a huge cavity to fill and you most likely won't be able to chamber a boolit big enough to help it.
you could however try a longer boolit and try to reach the rifling you'd have to use a pretty hard alloy to avoid riveting.
i'd also try using less neck tension to get it in the rifling as quick as possible before the pressure peaks [a slower powder]
get your case necks as long as possible.
that's some of the stuff you can try, but you may be looking at what wheeler said.

[stubshaft]

In order to get rid of fliers you may have to become more anal in your culling procedures and reject boolits that vary more than .5% of total weight. For the 22 boolits I sort into piles within 1/10th of a grain variation.

[brotherdarrell]

swheeler - I have thought of re-chambering to .223, not for this reason but for ease of getting brass. Two things make me hesitate and that is that not many have the ole 'triple duece' (many don't know what it is:?:), and second this rifle still shoots 50 gr v-max as well as it ever has. As far as copper fouling, I spent several hours last fall de-coppering all three of these rifles.

DLCTEX - I had to anneal my checks to get them to sit straight, and I spent several hours one day this last fall de-coppering all three of these rifles. And as far as the bator goes I think I would be better trying to shoot spit wads. This rifle and the bator do not like each other at all(i have both good and bad bator molds). I can say that I am jealous of your 722. Give me that, my 788 and throw in a Sako in .222 and I would be happier than a pig in slop!!

runfiverun - I do have the rcbs mold, and it drops .224x.225. Due to that it sits at the back of the shelf, though it could be perfect beagled? May have to dig out the beagle tape. Your comments regarding the .222 I find interesting. The one load that was under 2" @ 100 yds was straight coww with a touch of shot, heat treated in the oven to 450 degrees and shot un-sized. That was with 225415 (53 gr.). Those boolits drop just over .224". The .308, straight coww or 50/50? I spent this last couple days lapping my 200 gr lee mold to drop round noses, they started out .298x.301, and are now .302x.302 with 50/50. I opened up a Lee sizer from .308 to just over .310.

Thanks all, it is too easy to get tunnel-vision and this definitely helps to get focused on different aspects. I also did'nt know if the large diameter on the .222 was erosion or something else. I also looked at the two slugs with a 5x loupe and noticed that on one side the rifling is twice as close to the case as the other side; still erosion or possibly not chambered straight? It does shoot j-words good.

Thanks again- any and all ideas are welcome. I am an open book

brotherdarrell

[brotherdarrell]

In order to get rid of fliers you may have to become more anal in your culling procedures and reject boolits that vary more than .5% of total weight. For the 22 boolits I sort into piles within 1/10th of a grain variation.

Been doing that all week, the 30 cal are +/- 2.5 gr. and the 22 cal I have a neat little pile that are all within 1/10 gr. I first sorted visually and then by weight. Had to get in touch with my inner Prussian for this one. Thank you sir.

brotherdarrell

[runfiverun]

you could also pour some hard boolits and give that rcbs a lapping.
or use a harder alloy which should get you a tad bigger.
i started with linotype and come back the the 4/6/90 alloy and things improved. so i pushed them a bit harder.
i size mine to .2245
it has shot in the 3's at 100 in my 223 at 2750 fps
today i had time to get it out in the 22-250 and the 220 swift.
the 22-250 started getting tighter and tighter the faster i pushed it, i was under a half inch at 50 yds but i was only using 21.5 grs of 4895 over 2 grs less than i use in the 223.
using the same loads in the swift it was following the same trend but it only has a 3x9 scope on it
so the groups were a bit larger across the board but trending the same as the 250.
i'll keep pushing them and most likely swap to a slower powder when i go over the line.
or call it good and just shoot them depending on the accuracy and speed balance.

[geargnasher]

I cull 160-200 grain .30 caliber boolits to +/- .25 grain, usually still keep 75% at least. Your fliers could be due to many things, but a 2% weight variation often means you still have a few voids that can cause flyers.

You might try lubing one less groove, or changing lubes in your .308, you might be experiencing "purge flyers" from too much lube, or a lube that's too slippery.

Gear

[brotherdarrell]

runfiverun - my 'hardest' alloy is coww. I do have a couple boxes of lazercast 45/70's that have been gathering dust, any idea if these would drop larger? The first boolit I ever shot from the 22-250 were 225438's on a stiff charge of varget; the first three went in under an inch (100yds) and the next two opened up to 2", so I will follow your line of thought and see where it goes. Appears I have more molds to lap.

gear - typo on my part with the +/- 2.5 gr, should have said .25 gr. !!! My loob of choice is a homebrew jpw/lla with enough wax to stiffen for the lymen 450. This has worked for all loads up to date which include top end 44 mag loads. Your thoughts for this application? I have recently acquired beeswax, a new can of jpw and blue 2-cycle for plate lube. Should I pursue this instead for lube?

again - thanks for all ideas and aid

brotherdarrell

[Larry Gibson]

The .222 is typical of numerous M788 chambers I've measured. Note the case neck is too short for the chamber neck. This can cuaes accuracy problems. I solved that simply by forming .222 cases out of .223 cases and triming the case necks to fit the chamber neck exactly. The 14" twist shot the best in the .222s I used ith the Lovern 225 462, at 58 gr cast bullet fully dressed. It also fits the long neck of the .222 case very well. I sized at .225, used Javelina lube and sqaurely seated GCs. Medium burning powders with dacron fillers gave me very good and consistent accuracy in the 2200+ fps range.

I also rechambered several M788s to .223 and they also did very well with that same bullet in the 14" twist. The 225248 did do a little better in the .223 though because it was the better fit in the shorter .223 case neck. I sorely do regret not keeping the M788 .222 I had as it was excellent with cast once i used cases that fit.

The 22-250 will also have a 14' twist barrel and the throat looks like it will do well with a 225462 also. My M700 dpes well with that bullet. H4895 with a dacron filler under that bullet works well for me.

The .308W will have a 10" twist and should shoot cast bullets well in the 1800 - 1900 fps range. Waht bullet? What, alloy?, What sizing, lube and GC? What powder and load? Cases FL or NS'd?

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

i don't know what is in the lazercast alloy except some silver tailings.
i do know they are dang hard.
i'd work with what you have though, and melt just enough to lap the mold with.
let them sit for a day or so before you try to do the lapping with the castings.
i would get a couple of 1/4x20 nuts have the mold and nuts up to casting temp, then pour through the nuts into the cavity to make the lap with.
waterdrop them so they get harder sooner. you should only need about three of them per cavity.

[brotherdarrell]

Larry - tell me where to get a 225462 and I will hock the farm. Molds in my part of the country are few and far between with 22 cal molds pretty much non-existant. I was hoping the bator would fill this role, but it has'nt panned out. I have tried forming .222 from .223 but keep getting folds where the shoulder meets the neck. Maybe a lesson? I had'nt thought of leaving the neck long.

To date best results with the .308 has been best with water dropped 50/50 pure/coww, sized .3105" and lubed with jpw/lla stiffened with wax. This lube has been good for full house .44 mag loads. My Lee 200 gr mold dropped noses that were .298"x.301", and after lapping I have them dropping .302"x.302" and 202-203 grs. I have a good supply of WW brass with about 60 pcs fired through this rifle that are neck sized. 28 - 31 grs 4895 and 1/2 gr dacron (sound familliar?) has given best accuracy, just chasing fliers. At higher speeds this is my most consistant mold, but I would like to push some 'threshholds" and see what happens:kidding:

I have burnt up the search feature researching loading data, I just now need to be able to cast a boolit that is worthy. I have several pages of notes which you have un=knowingly contributed to.

runfiverun - will do

again, thanks to all

brotherdarrell

[geargnasher]

Just talking about the lube thing, if your "wax" is paraffin, ditch it and buy or make a proven lube. I recommend Felix lube, White Label BAC, or Glen Fryxell's version of "Lithi-Bee". 1800fps in a rifle is where quality of lube will begin to show, and just because it isn't leading doesn't mean the lube is working as well as it should in other areas.

Gear

[swheeler]

The .222 is typical of numerous M788 chambers I've measured. Note the case neck is too short for the chamber neck. This can cuaes accuracy problems. I solved that simply by forming .222 cases out of .223 cases and triming the case necks to fit the chamber neck exactly. The 14" twist shot the best in the .222s I used ith the Lovern 225 462, at 58 gr cast bullet fully dressed. It also fits the long neck of the .222 case very well. I sized at .225, used Javelina lube and sqaurely seated GCs. Medium burning powders with dacron fillers gave me very good and consistent accuracy in the 2200+ fps range.

I also rechambered several M788s to .223 and they also did very well with that same bullet in the 14" twist. The 225248 did do a little better in the .223 though because it was the better fit in the shorter .223 case neck. I sorely do regret not keeping the M788 .222 I had as it was excellent with cast once i used cases that fit.

The 22-250 will also have a 14' twist barrel and the throat looks like it will do well with a 225462 also. My M700 dpes well with that bullet. H4895 with a dacron filler under that bullet works well for me.

The .308W will have a 10" twist and should shoot cast bullets well in the 1800 - 1900 fps range. Waht bullet? What, alloy?, What sizing, lube and GC? What powder and load? Cases FL or NS'd?

Larry Gibson

Larry; I thought about the same thing, BUT went and got a loaded 222 shell which measures .246"OD on the neck of loaded round(necks are .011" thick). Thats why I think it's erroded leade, with a .224 bullet seated in a .050" longer case(.246 will have to shove into .238) if it will chamber it will have .008" crush on the end of the neck, that could jack pressures up a bit and couldn't be good for accuracy with cast or jacketed. Just some thoughts.

[Larry Gibson]

swheeler

You could be correct about the erroded front part of the throat. I went back and checked my 222 Rem data sheet from way back when. The Lyman trim to length is 1.690" and I noted "trim to 2.020" then fire form". Would have to get a better close up of that slug.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

brotherdarrell

Larry - tell me where to get a 225462 and I will hock the farm. Molds in my part of the country are few and far between with 22 cal molds pretty much non-existant. I was hoping the bator would fill this role, but it has'nt panned out.

You might post a WTB on trade/for sale forum. I've found them for sale several times. My original 225462 was a single cavity I let go with my M788 .222.....never shoulda done that either......anyways just keep your eyes open on the forums for one, they do come up for sale. Someone might do us a favor with a group buy using the same design minus the scrap groove.

My current double cavity throws just as good bullets though. Mine drop at .227+ and I just lube and GC them in a .228 sizer. They shoot better that way than sizing to .225.

I have tried forming .222 from .223 but keep getting folds where the shoulder meets the neck. Maybe a lesson? I had'nt thought of leaving the neck long.

Quick lesson; size the .223 cases FL in a .223 die if they are once fired. They may also need to be anneled so the brass is softer back where the new .222 shoulder will be.

I polish/clean them well before sizing.

Very lightly lube the cases with a lanolin based lube such as Dillons spray lube or just use pure lanolin and wipe a very little on the neck I shoulder area of the case.

Take the decapping rod out of the .222 FL die.

Adjust the die lock ring and lock it so it is set for the shell holder to bup solid againstit past the cam over point of the ram (so the ram does not cam over).

Put case in shell holder and raise into the empty die hole.

Start the case down util it bumps solid against the raised case.

Lower the ram and screw the die in maybe 2 turns and size the case then lower it out of the die.

Screw the die in another couple turns and repeat until the case is fully sized with the shell holder solidly bumped agains the bottom of the die. I take 4 to 6 turn ins per case watching between each sizing for the build up of lube. It does not take much lube to cause a dent or fold.

I use a .22 cal Mdie to expand the case mouths and then trim to length.

I then outside neck turned them to uniform the the necks. This is not always necessary but depends on the cases used.

The cases were then loaded and fire formed with a jacketed bullet load. I only NS'd the cases after that.

Sounds like a lot of work but doing one step at a time with a couple hundred cases isn't that bad. Once made the last forever with cast loads.

Slight wrinkles in the shoulder/neck area didn't bother much and those cases shot as well as others. Since they weren't FL sized after forming they didn't split open.

To date best results with the .308 has been best with water dropped 50/50 pure/coww, sized .3105"

Suggest adding 2% tin to the WWs. This will make it a much better ternary alloy with the tin making the antimony blend better in solution. The BHN will be in the 14 - 17 range with them just AC'd. I also suggest trying them just AC'd.

and lubed with jpw/lla stiffened with wax. This lube has been good for full house .44 mag loads.

May be good for full house 44 magnum loads but pushing upwards of 2200 fps is beyond that. If the "wax" is Beeswax then it may be good to go but if parafin it probably won't be. I suggest Javelina or 2500+ lube for where you want to take that bullet.

My Lee 200 gr mold dropped noses that were .298"x.301", and after lapping I have them dropping .302"x.302" and 202-203 grs.

Good bullet and sounds like you got it to a good fit. It should get you there.

I have a good supply of WW brass with about 60 pcs fired through this rifle that are neck sized. 28 - 31 grs 4895 and 1/2 gr dacron (sound familliar?) has given best accuracy, just chasing fliers. At higher speeds this is my most consistant mold, but I would like to push some 'threshholds" and see what happens:kidding:

I use WW cases a lot also and have no problems with them. The 4895 loads with the dacron filler are very good but you are wanting to push the threshold. If so then I suggest a slower burning powder (AA4350, RL19 or H4831SC) to slow the acceleration a bit. Start at 34 gr with any of them and work up in 1 gr increments until accuracy goes south. Use the dacron filler until loading density hits 85%.

I have burnt up the search feature researching loading data, I just now need to be able to cast a boolit that is worthy. I have several pages of notes which you have un=knowingly contributed to.

No reason you can't push the threshold with what you've got. Just takes dilligence to get there but once there it makes for big smiles.......what .308W rifle with what twist?

Larry Gibson

[stubshaft]

I had a thought while reading Larry's post. What diameter is your "M" die plug. I had one that was too small and was sizing down the boolits in the neck. I had Buckshot make me a new one and it was like a switch was turned on.

[brotherdarrell]

Larry - This all gets printed and put in the notes, the education never ends. I'm working my way through my powder and 4350 is next. Trying not to change too many things at once. It also sounds like time to make new lube. The .308 is a 1981 rem 788 w/10" twist, no reason to make this easy!!! It does have the 22" barrel.

Thanks to all, time to get the .223 brass out

brotherdarrell

[brotherdarrell]

Well, pass or fail?

On the left is a once fired .223, on the right is a factory round and in the middle is mine. This is by far the least amount of wrinkles I have gotten. It is trimmed to 1.728 and with a 225415 sized @ .225" chambers as easily as any. It is hard to keep the mic right at the end of the neck, but measures .248 both before and after chambering. Through a 5x loupe I can see rifling on the first driving band but not past.

Well?

brotherdarrell

[runfiverun]

that looks good.
larry's description is pretty dang close to how i do it too.
the part about using a full load to fireform is one i believe in also.
also notice larry specified AA-4350 and a filler with the others.
i have a very,very accurate load with 36 grs rl-19 in my 308, however it's only good to 50 yds.
it gets unstable after that and literally su err bl anyways it shoots like 4" groups at 100 yds.

on your lube if you just go straight to beeswax alox and carnuba made from what you have it will help.
b-wax/ xlox [not the mixed junk from lee] and then heat your jpw well to cook out the solvents [you'll know don't breathe it] and add only 10 % of that by volumn to the 60-40 mix of the other.
you can add some lanolin to the mix as it cools down [teaspoon full to a lb] will help it remain flexible and give it some tackyness.
the jpw will add enough parrafin for the alox 350 to be the equivelant of the old 2138f
this will take some heat to flow through the sizer, if you want it softer you can add a tablespoon full of atf or two of white lithium grease.
i doubt you'll need them down there, but they will help if you wanna add them anyways.

[brotherdarrell]

that looks good.
larry's description is pretty dang close to how i do it too.
the part about using a full load to fireform is one i believe in also.
also notice larry specified AA-4350 and a filler with the others.
i have a very,very accurate load with 36 grs rl-19 in my 308, however it's only good to 50 yds.
it gets unstable after that and literally su err bl anyways it shoots like 4" groups at 100 yds.

on your lube if you just go straight to beeswax alox and carnuba made from what you have it will help.
b-wax/ xlox [not the mixed junk from lee] and then heat your jpw well to cook out the solvents [you'll know don't breathe it] and add only 10 % of that by volumn to the 60-40 mix of the other.
you can add some lanolin to the mix as it cools down [teaspoon full to a lb] will help it remain flexible and give it some tackyness.
the jpw will add enough parrafin for the alox 350 to be the equivelant of the old 2138f
this will take some heat to flow through the sizer, if you want it softer you can add a tablespoon full of atf or two of white lithium grease.
i doubt you'll need them down there, but they will help if you wanna add them anyways.

Got it. This will keep me busy for a while. Can't say how much I appreciate the aide.

brotherdarrell

[Larry Gibson]

Larry - This all gets printed and put in the notes, the education never ends. I'm working my way through my powder and 4350 is next. Trying not to change too many things at once. It also sounds like time to make new lube. The .308 is a 1981 rem 788 w/10" twist, no reason to make this easy!!! It does have the 22" barrel.

Thanks to all, time to get the .223 brass out

brotherdarrell

You should be able to get very good and consistent accuracy in the 1750 - 1850 fps range with M788 10" twist, I have with several of them over the years. Loads with 4895 should do well in that range. If you want to push the RPM threshold then the slower powders will be needed. Sounds like you're headed in the right direction with it.

Larry Gibson

[brotherdarrell]

Decided to start from square one. As far as the .308 goes I figured if it was good enough for Ben (and it is more than good enough!!!) I figured 16.0 gr 2400 was a good starting point. Sized or un-sized did'nt appear to make much difference. I mixed up some new lube trying for 45/45/10 with enough jpw to stiffen enough to go through my Lymen sizer without heat. What I ended up with was basicly equal parts jpw/lla/beeswax with enough solvents cooked out to flow through sizer. Leading in all three rifles was minimal at worst. There were other groups but none were over 1.5" ctc with 5 shot groups.

A note on the .222 rem. The group shown is with Lyman 225415 sized .225". There was another group that was around 1.5", but ended up with un-related bullet holes. I also had two groups with 225438 sized .225" that were just over 2" ctc.

At this time I think I need to re-evaluate my lube, maybe try Javalina or comparable lube. There was definitely improvement over what preceded. Many thanks to all who contributed. I will re-shoot the above .308 loads to verify and load some with 4895 and more Lee 200 grain boolits.

brotherdarrell

[brotherdarrell]

Forgot to add pics, HAH!!

[runfiverun]

i'd up the beeswax a titch.
b.a.c. is a good lube but you really need the 50-50-5 or lower alox.
i use the xlox and lower it to 40% or less.
just something else to try.

go head and add some more 2400 and use a rifle primer.

i am at 18 in mine and the rifle primer makes a difference.
also when loading the case into the rifle make sure the powder comes back against the primer.
and lay it gently into the opening.

those groups look good, now just tweak things a titch and see what happens.
that's where the real learning happens.

[brotherdarrell]

runfiverun - I can definitely add more beeswax to lube. In the next month temps. will be high enough to accomodate without adding heat. I will also add more 2400 to see results. At this time I have a favorable baseline with which to compare future results. The lube I used is not much different from the start, but boolit dimensions are much different. I added almost .003" across the parting line on the 200 grainers, and I have almost 150 that were cast over a month ago.

This is where it gets fun, trying all combinations and finding what works best. I will also add that this rem. 788 has the older stock that is narrow and slab sided on the forend which can get a little wobbly on the rest. Definitely need to continue working on technique.

thanks again to all

brotherdarrell