Boolits made out of steel or tungsten.

[letsmeltlead2693]

Didn't know where to post this so I hope I put it in the right place. I don't cast boolits, I joined for the lead melting section. Anyways, any of you ever heard of anyone using a steel or tungsten boolit? How is tungsten or steel more powerful.

[felix]

Be more explicit, please! ... felix

[Moonman]

Tungsten is very expensive, the military uses depleated uranium in some cases as the heavy weight carries energy. Steel and harder metals will wear the barrel out, that's the reason for Lead or Lead covered with Copper Jackets for bullet use.

[letsmeltlead2693]

Still, it would be neat seeing someone shoot a gun with tungsten boolits, if you did that the boolit would shoot through 3 or 4 inches of solid steel and keep going.

[Lefty SRH]

It would have to be similar to a sabot round or like others said encase the tungsten in lead/copper jacket.

[beagle]

That's the principle of the Army's APDS anti-tank rounds and SLAP rounds. (Armor piercing discarding sabot and sabot light armor penetrator) The sabot allows high velocity with a lighter than normal payload and combined with the tough tungsten core (in the case of the APDS round) it will penetrate impressive amounts of armor plating./beagle

[Reload3006]

as others have said Tungsten cored ammo is nothing new. Armor Piercing has been around for a long long time.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Military AP (armor piercing) rounds have used steel and tungsten carbide penetrators. Small arms ammo with steel or iron penetrators are designed to penetrate body armor (flak vests and helmets). Tungsten carbide and DU are designed to penetrate vehicle armor. These rounds are clad in gliding metal or a plastic (7.62mm SLAP) so the hard penetrator doesn't rapidly wear out the bore. You don't want to have a projectile made only of such a hard material.

These penetrators are harder than the target and the penetrator do not deform as fast as a lead core bullet, resulting in deeper penetration.

There are legal ramifications surrounding AP ammo.

[375RUGER]

the tungsten bullets were originally teflon coated to not be so harsh on the barrel. These were the so called 'cop killers'. the antis of course flailed there arms and said that all teflon coated bullets were bad, but in reality it had nothing to do with the teflon and the bullets ability to penetrate hard targets or vests.
In answer to your question, Tungsten or steel realizes it's ability to penetrate a 'hard target' by not deforming as readily as a lead bullet.

[williamwaco]

Many years ago. When you could actually buy military surplus AP for the .30-06, ( I don't know if it was legal even then but in the '50s and '60s it was easily availble almost everywhere.)

Gunsmiths and machinists would disassemble the projectiles to get the TC insert to use as a punch or scribe.

[omgb]

Steel core ammo is still plentyful. Name your poison? .223? 7.62? .50? Soviet, American, Finnish, Greek, Iranian...name your flavor. It's all out there, especially 7.62x54R. There's loads of AP stuff in that caliber.

[Sonnypie]

I can say this, AP or even steel jacketed (magnetic) bullets in California are a big no-no.
None of the ranges will knowingly allow you to shoot them here.
I always took it as because of the fire hazards of stray or ricocheted bullets, more than any other reasons. (Yep, brush fires have been blamed on stray bullets)
That is, besides the legislators wanting to run every-bodies lives out here....

I've never had any desire to shoot AP, or even tracer rounds. I can (and have) penetrated trees and poles with my regular rounds. :roll:

[Chicken Thief]

A little trivia:

Sabot is french and means wooden clog.

In the start of the industrial revolution in france, looms was the first to be driven by water (later steam) at a continuious pace thus no breaks in a 12 hour working day. To get a break the workers threw a clog in the loom to break it and get a break from work. Thus sabotage.

In terms of firearms it is derived from the concave curve of the bottom. Hold two together and you have the idea of the term.

[Chicken Thief]

Oh forgot!

In the American version of Nikita her initiation is shooting somebody with a Desert Eagle using titanium bullets. Can anyone imagine the pressure spike trying to squeeze a titanium slug down a steel bore??

[SquirrelHollow]

You can buy surplus AP bullets and ammo, all you want.

But... making them requires a Type 10 FFL: Manufacturer of Destructive Devices and Armor Piercing Ammunition.

[BulletFactory]

pistol ammo and rifle ammo carry different AP restrictions in Michigan. Possibly fed too, Im not sure

[rsrocket1]

Steel is a very broad term. Mild steel used in cartridge cases is almost as soft as brass, just take a used Tula or Wolf case and try crushing it with a pair of pliers. Easy.

Sonny, speak for SoCal when you say "California". Up here in NoCal, we don't have those problems. Apparently steel core ammo doesn't spark north of 35 degrees N latitude :).

No steel ammo at ranges, no lead for hunting, no "assault clips". Only legalized pot.

The only chance you have against a criminal in California is to offer him a joint and hope he dies of the munchies.

[Alan in Vermont]

Artillery projectiles(at least some of them) are a steel shell with bronze or brass driving bands on the outside of the case. The steel "jacket" doesn't touch the barrel, only the driving bands fit tight enough to seal the bore and engage the rifling.

[omgb]

The use of steel core ammo is banned in the national forrests of California. The issue is fire....I've been at the Angleles range when a small brush fire was started by someone using steel core ammo. I'm a Hunter Ed instructor and we read the regs dutifully to our students. However, that doesn't mean they follow them once outside of class. The temptation is too great for many. Cheap Rusky or Chicom milsurp is hard to pass up even if it is forbidden. So, we have some fires and we issue some tickets but......the problem persists.

It is not illegal to sell it, possess it or even to fire it. You just can't use it in the national forrests of on most ranges.

[beagle]

The sabot rounds for artillery/tank cannons are actually harder on the rifling than standard rounds with a copper borelet (there, I remembered that from the basic NCO course). The barrel erodes faster with the sabot. One sabot equals the bore errosion of seven standard rounds as I recall.

The .30 and .50 tungsten cores make fine center punches./beagle

[Cadillo]

Most of the WWII era M2 Ball I've had over the years is steel jacketed having a copper wash over the bullet to prevent rusting of the bullets, which have a lead core inside the steel jacket. I think that this was due to wartime shortages of copper for gilding metal jackets.

My M1 barrels do just fine in spite of shooting a lot of these steel jacketed bullets. I won't shoot it through my Krieger barrel though.

[SquirrelHollow]

...

Sonny, speak for SoCal when you say "California". Up here in NoCal, we don't have those problems. Apparently steel core ammo doesn't spark north of 35 degrees N latitude :).

No steel ammo at ranges, no lead for hunting, no "assault clips". Only legalized pot.

....

You need to pass that information on to the Great Basin states. They still think lead "sparks" are the cause of most wildfires.
(If they do want to pin the blame on shooters, they could at least say it was some d-bag litterbug's cigarette; rather than lead bullets.)
Those of us that live here can't get them to pull their heads out.

[olafhardt]

I remember Speer selling tungsten cored solids for big rifles. Tungsten is heavier than lead, not perticularly toxic, hard and has an extremely high melting temperature which is why they make light bulb filaments out of it.

[pdawg_shooter]

Bud of mine once turned some .300 dia slugs from gr8 bolts, and hardened them. I paper patched them to .310 dia. He loaded them up in a 30-06 and fired them through the thick upper flange of a piece of railroad iron. Zipped clean through and kept on going.

[Cap'n Morgan]

The real benefit from using tungsten bullets (or rather tungsten core bullets) would be much better ballistics compared to regular bullets. Depending on the alloy it would have a density nearly 70% higher than lead, about the same as depleted uranium, and would make for some beautiful long range bullets for windy conditions. In fact, I would be surprised if such bullets doesn't exists already in some Black Ops inventory.

I have been toying with the idea of making some heavy 'dangerous game' bullets for my .375 H&H using a machined brass jacket with a brazed or glued tungsten carbide core, but since the only big game on my immediate horizon is (hopefully) a Canadian moose, a 260gr Nosler Partition should be plenty enough.

[felix]

Twist requirements go much lower for heavier materials and is therefore my personal advantage. ... felix

[mpmarty]

And the benefits of hardened penetrators decreases with increased velocity. At over 4000 fps striking velocity a soft lead slug penetrates as well as AP.

[swheeler]

I remember Speer selling tungsten cored solids for big rifles. Tungsten is heavier than lead, not perticularly toxic, hard and has an extremely high melting temperature which is why they make light bulb filaments out of it.

African Grand Slam bullets with tungsten penetrators. Hornady used .075" mild steel jackets with copper wash for their 458 500 gr FMJ. The military used bore diameter steel and DU bullets with nylon driving bands to save the rifling, like the warthog 30mm

[DLCTEX]

I had some machine gun 30-06 ammo in the 1980s that were AP. I fired some at an old hay baler and the core penetrated both sides of the bale chambers 3/8" steel.
In the National Guard in the 1960s we sometimes got a penetrater core down the collar when a round hit the concrete in front of the targets we were pulling. Hot!! Every now and then you'd see someone doing the "core dance" trying to keep it moving while it cooled. Our unit had a man killed when a core deflected downward from a bullet that hit a knot in one of the boards lining the target pit he was in.

[429421Cowboy]

Oh forgot!

In the American version of Nikita her initiation is shooting somebody with a Desert Eagle using titanium bullets. Can anyone imagine the pressure spike trying to squeeze a titanium slug down a steel bore??

Wouldn't a titanium boolit also be really light weight as well?
I have read several interesting articles about attempts to cast the Lone Ranger's silver boolits (what, he probably called 'em boolits too!) and the difficultys in doing that stunt.
Also from what i know about metal types and also balistics i would first wonder if cast steel boolits might be pretty brittle as cast, and also if early steel shot was enough to score an old shotguns barrel i'd be curious to see what a full bore slug would do to lands and grooves:holysheep. Maybe someday an enterprising Cast Boolits member will sell sand and wax mold kits for do-it-yourself cylinder throat opening and removal of thread constriction in your revolver barrels!!:Bright idea:

[stubshaft]

I can see it already;
"Hi Noob here, I just lathe turned some .311" boolits out of cold rolled rod and was wondering what type of lube to use and whether or not to GC it?"

[yovinny]

And the benefits of hardened penetrators decreases with increased velocity. At over 4000 fps striking velocity a soft lead slug penetrates as well as AP.

In theory, or have you actualy managed to shoot cast over 4000fps ?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

ammo with a Steel core, steel jacketed bullet (it had a Lead sleeve inbetween)
was real common and cheap in the early 90s...7.62x39.
I bought several cases of 1100 rds for under $100 each.
it came from China (til the clinton admin banned it's importation).

It was great fun punching 1/2" holes into 3/8" steel plate with the SKS.
I sure wouldn't want to mine (Lead) those berms that got fed 1000s of rds of those
Jon

[turbo1889]

Interesting fact as far as DU munitions go. It was confirmed high up the allied chain of command that DU penetrating munitions were used by the Germans in some of their "last stand" battles of WWII from tests of contaminated areas where allied armor suffered devastating hits unlike anything they had ever seen before.

The scary thing is you only get DU as a byproduct of the process of refining natural uranium to a fissionable level. The Nazis stockpile of refined uranium and all other assorted research material and information for their own nuclear bomb program has never been recovered and no one knows were it is or in whose hands and while everything else could have been destroyed rather then let it fall into allied hands refined uranium doesn't just "go away".

Just another tale of loose nuclear material and capabilities to keep you up at night.

[Bret4207]

Still, it would be neat seeing someone shoot a gun with tungsten boolits, if you did that the boolit would shoot through 3 or 4 inches of solid steel and keep going.

No, actually it wouldn't unless the bullet had enough energy and the target was soft enough, or whatever the proper term is. No matter how hard the projectile, you still need a certain amount of energy to do the work. 3-4" of mild steel is one thing, 4" of armor plating of the type used in an Abrahms tank for instance is something else. It's not as simple as "harder is better", even in the non lead alloy world.

[Bret4207]

In theory, or have you actualy managed to shoot cast over 4000fps ?

We have guys shooting in the 3500 fps area IIRC. That's close. If you get Ackleys books or look in several other places there are photos of 14 and 17 cal bullets penetrating armor plate with copper jacketed bullets, often made from 22 lr casings IIRC. These were 12-20 gr bullets going well over 4K fps plowing through 1/2" tempered steel. It can be done and the heavier and faster a projectile is moving the better it does. I've seen pics of straws of grass that penetrated a tree trunk in a tornado. It can happen. Obviously the less resistant to deformation and breakup a projectile material is, the better it's sectional density, the faster it is going, the better the chance it will penetrate. Energy, pure and simple.

[softpoint]

And the benefits of hardened penetrators decreases with increased velocity. At over 4000 fps striking velocity a soft lead slug penetrates as well as AP.

Some of my buds and I have played around shooting mild steel plates with different rounds. In some thicknesses of plate,where the .458 win mag. would leave a big dent and distort the plate, the 22/250 and 220 swift would penetrate all the way through. I shot my .416 Weatherby into a thick (1 1/2inch) piece of plate and then my .220 Swift. While neither one went all the way through, the Swift went much deeper.

[softpoint]

In theory, or have you actualy managed to shoot cast over 4000fps ?

I think he is referring to a copper jacketed soft lead bullet, not a cast bullet. My assumption, (FWIW) is that the copper jacket does little to enhance the lead bullet's penetration in steel, and a cast lead bullet without a jacket would do as well, at comparable velocity. Interesting, though, and I have some pure lead .45/70 paper patched bullets that I am driving about 1950 fps. and some 350 grain Hornady roundnose at close to the same velocity,and they weigh the same as the cast. While this round won't penetrate much steel with either bullet, I can shoot some thin plate and compare the results...

[yovinny]

I think he is referring to a copper jacketed soft lead bullet, not a cast bullet. My assumption, (FWIW) is that the copper jacket does little to enhance the lead bullet's penetration in steel, and a cast lead bullet without a jacket would do as well, at comparable velocity. Interesting, though, and I have some pure lead .45/70 paper patched bullets that I am driving about 1950 fps. and some 350 grain Hornady roundnose at close to the same velocity,and they weigh the same as the cast. While this round won't penetrate much steel with either bullet, I can shoot some thin plate and compare the results...

Thanks, but no need.
We know velocity is king when it comes to penetration.
I was just wondering if he actualy made 4000fps with cast.

[Bret4207]

I can get 4K fps with cast. I can even get one hole groups with them...one hole here, one hole over there, one hole 6 feet that way....

[BAGTIC]

Still, it would be neat seeing someone shoot a gun with tungsten boolits, if you did that the boolit would shoot through 3 or 4 inches of solid steel and keep going.

Wouldn't even come close to it The SLAP APFSDS military rounds in .30 caliber penetrate less than an inch.

[BAGTIC]

Oh forgot!

In the American version of Nikita her initiation is shooting somebody with a Desert Eagle using titanium bullets. Can anyone imagine the pressure spike trying to squeeze a titanium slug down a steel bore??

Titanium is light weight which should reduce pressure besides which if the bullet is properly sized it would not result in increased pressure.

It is just a movie not reality.

[BAGTIC]

The real benefit from using tungsten bullets (or rather tungsten core bullets) would be much better ballistics compared to regular bullets. Depending on the alloy it would have a density nearly 70% higher than lead, about the same as depleted uranium, and would make for some beautiful long range bullets for windy conditions. In fact, I would be surprised if such bullets doesn't exists already in some Black Ops inventory.

I have been toying with the idea of making some heavy 'dangerous game' bullets for my .375 H&H using a machined brass jacket with a brazed or glued tungsten carbide core, but since the only big game on my immediate horizon is (hopefully) a Canadian moose, a 260gr Nosler Partition should be plenty enough.

The advantage would be at very long range and since most long range shots are misses regardless of what the bullets are made of if would be foolish to use such expensive bullets. Conventional bullets have more than enough lethality at any practical range. Also tungsten bullets would not fragment so would be wasted on living targets. The proper role of such bullets is in increasing penetration of hard targets at ranges where hits are likely.

Remember the increased weight would result in an increased BC but it would also result in much lower muzzle velocities.

[BAGTIC]

the tungsten bullets were originally teflon coated to not be so harsh on the barrel. These were the so called 'cop killers'. the antis of course flailed there arms and said that all teflon coated bullets were bad, but in reality it had nothing to do with the teflon and the bullets ability to penetrate hard targets or vests.
In answer to your question, Tungsten or steel realizes it's ability to penetrate a 'hard target' by not deforming as readily as a lead bullet.

When fired against armor plate at very high velocities steel bullets will shatter which is why tungsten carbide is used.

[BAGTIC]

The sabot rounds for artillery/tank cannons are actually harder on the rifling than standard rounds with a copper borelet (there, I remembered that from the basic NCO course). The barrel erodes faster with the sabot. One sabot equals the bore errosion of seven standard rounds as I recall.

The .30 and .50 tungsten cores make fine center punches./beagle

The saboted rounds cause more erosion because they are loaded with extra large charges of special high energy propellant. The erosion is not caused by the sabot it is due to the high temperatures and pressures.

[BAGTIC]

And the benefits of hardened penetrators decreases with increased velocity. At over 4000 fps striking velocity a soft lead slug penetrates as well as AP.

No way. If it did armies all over the world wouldn't be wasting money making steel and tungsten carbide armor piercing rounds.

[finishman2000]

how does a steel core bullet start fires? sorry but i don't believe it.
also you do not need an ffl to reload ap heads into rounds. only if you sell them complete as ammo. i sold a thousand when the big scare came in 2008-9. i bought them cheap years ago for something like $50 a thousand. sold them for $1 each...peopel just had to have them!

[PAT303]

No way. If it did armies all over the world wouldn't be wasting money making steel and tungsten carbide armor piercing rounds.

303 Mk7 rounds penetrate thicker steel if the bullet is reversed in the case and fired,the jacket splatters on the plate but the lead core slips through. Pat

[45-70 Chevroner]

In WW I some foreign countries used mild malable steel jackets with lead cores. I have shot some of them in a 6.5 Carcano. I think some countries had a shortage of copper at that time.

[ChuckS1]

The saboted rounds cause more erosion because they are loaded with extra large charges of special high energy propellant. The erosion is not caused by the sabot it is due to the high temperatures and pressures.

Which is why the M1A1 tank cannon is a smoothbore gun (a German design, BTW). The spin of the DU projectile is imparted by its fins, much like a dart.

[BAGTIC]

Interesting fact as far as DU munitions go. It was confirmed high up the allied chain of command that DU penetrating munitions were used by the Germans in some of their "last stand" battles of WWII from tests of contaminated areas where allied armor suffered devastating hits unlike anything they had ever seen before.

The scary thing is you only get DU as a byproduct of the process of refining natural uranium to a fissionable level. The Nazis stockpile of refined uranium and all other assorted research material and information for their own nuclear bomb program has never been recovered and no one knows were it is or in whose hands and while everything else could have been destroyed rather then let it fall into allied hands refined uranium doesn't just "go away".

Just another tale of loose nuclear material and capabilities to keep you up at night.

Yup. Along with tales of extraterrestrials and Bigfoot. The Germans used tungsten carbide antitank rounds APCR early in the war but had to give them up as they did not have sufficient supplies of tungsten. You explained it yourself. The Nazis never achieved a sustained fission reaction

[BAGTIC]

Twist requirements go much lower for heavier materials and is therefore my personal advantage. ... felix


Because heavier materials make for shorter bullets and twist is determined primarily by bullet length not bullet weight.

[BAGTIC]

Most of the WWII era M2 Ball I've had over the years is steel jacketed having a copper wash over the bullet to prevent rusting of the bullets, which have a lead core inside the steel jacket. I think that this was due to wartime shortages of copper for gilding metal jackets.

My M1 barrels do just fine in spite of shooting a lot of these steel jacketed bullets. I won't shoot it through my Krieger barrel though.

There were other more critical uses for copper such as in alloying metals especially aluminum for aircraft. More important than use once disposable bullets that would never be recyclable.

Some of our early nuclear facilities actually used silver wiring and gold bullion for shielding in order to save copper for the war effort. It was as safe in the high security research sites as it would have been in Fort Knox and was recoverable after the war.

[BAGTIC]

It is possible that a hardened steel core might hit a piece of flint or chert and strike a spark but it is just as likely that any bullets might strike the same material and drive it against another piece creating a spark. Flint and steel are not necessay to strike a spark as two pieces of mineral together work about as well.

Norma used to make expanding sporting bullets with steel jackets and the worked just fine.

[BAGTIC]

The straws that penetrate trees are not true example of penetration. What happens is that a tree unly great stress will 'delaminate' and the straw become embedded in the cracks which close up when the tree straightens.

Penetration is basically about momentun density. A small caliber bullet that concentrates the force over a small cross sectional area can penetrate better than a larger diameter that spreads the force over a larger area. "Plugging" type penetration works just llike a punch press. Same principle as the ironworking machine at the local welding shop. That is one reason the APFSDS tank rounds penetrate so well. The 120mm tank gun concentrates all the force on an area less than an inch across. There are other principles that take over at very high velocities and principles but at the WW2 level that was about it.

The Russians did not invent the high velocity smoothbore gun firing Armor Piercing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot [APFSDS] projectiles. The USA did back in 1952-1954. At the time it was referred to as the Arrow shell.

[nanuk]

I had some old 6.5x55 rounds that were steel jackets. a magnet would stick to them easily.
and they sure were pretty, not a hint of corrosion on them.


also, was it not Whitworth who PP'd a carbide slug and fired it out of his hex bored rifle?

[MikeS]

Some folks are talking about steel jacketed bullets like they're a thing of the past. Check any Russian Wolf or Tula ammo, steel jackets are all they use I think.

[Bret4207]

The straws that penetrate trees are not true example of penetration. What happens is that a tree unly great stress will 'delaminate' and the straw become embedded in the cracks which close up when the tree straightens.

Penetration is basically about momentun density. A small caliber bullet that concentrates the force over a small cross sectional area can penetrate better than a larger diameter that spreads the force over a larger area. "Plugging" type penetration works just llike a punch press. Same principle as the ironworking machine at the local welding shop. That is one reason the APFSDS tank rounds penetrate so well. The 120mm tank gun concentrates all the force on an area less than an inch across. There are other principles that take over at very high velocities and principles but at the WW2 level that was about it.

The Russians did not invent the high velocity smoothbore gun firing Armor Piercing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot [APFSDS] projectiles. The USA did back in 1952-1954. At the time it was referred to as the Arrow shell.

Okay, whatever, the straw still has to penetrate the fibers, right? It may not be "solid" but the pictures I've seen indicate entry and exit "wounds" so to speak, that is, the wood is puckered in at the entrance and pushed outward at the exit.

Hey,whatever, it's not all that important is it.

[para45lda]

Not sure about the whole piece of straw in a tree thing. But I personally saw a 2x4 stuck through a telephone pole after Hurricane Andrew went through South Florida.

I'm really surprised more paper patchers haven't chimed in as I would think this would be right up their alley.

Wes