38Spec load with 22LR recoil

[MikeS]

Hi All.

I want to load some 38 Special loads that will have recoil about the same as 22 long rifle. My mother has been shooting a .22 Smith model 34 (I think that's the model, it's a J frame), and she also has a model 60 that I want her to get used to shooting.

I have bullseye, unique, trail boss, and some slower powders as well to work with. How low can I go before I need to start worrying about a 158gr boolit getting stuck in a 2" barrel? I was kind of thinking of trying 2gr of trail boss, or possibly less. So what does anyone think?

[high standard 40]

Try a roundball load. check this thread.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=81006

[turbo1889]

+1 on a single RB load

I have loaded 0.362" RB (that is what they came out of the 36-cal round ball mold at) round balls in 38-spl. all the way down to 1.6 grains of trail boss. Worked fine, but I prefer about a 2.0 grain charge which is just a little hotter. Can't remember off the top of my head which size on the Lee auto disk drops a 2.0 grain charge of TB for that load but it works great.

Just tumble lube the balls and then bell the case mouths slightly so the balls don't get lead shaved but rather squeeze down in size a little at the equator during seating and seat them just deep enough so that the equator of the ball is just below the mouth of the case and the crimp tightens down the mouth of the case just above the equator of the ball. When the ball is seated it gets squeezed down a little and forms a slight equator band that reduces its diameter slightly and then when the round is fired the ball gets squeezed down just a little more in the revolver throat then a little more in the forcing cone and then engraves in the rifling so everything is sealed up and works good without leading. Long story short you need to use an oversize ball size compared to the size of boolit you would normally use since a ball squeezes down around its equator very easily and if you were to use a ball that was the regular diameter of your regular boolits it won't seal up or engrave in the rifling good enough and you will get leading and/or bad accuracy.

Long story short, just use an oversize ball and a light charge of Trail Boss and it works out just fine.

[MT Gianni]

Recoil is a combination of velocity and mass. Try a lighter boolit like the Lee 105 swc.

[Shiloh]

Recoil is a combination of velocity and mass. Try a lighter boolit like the Lee 105 swc.

Yup.

Fast powder.

[MikeS]

Well, I'm trying to work with what I have, and that's about 8lbs of the Lee 158gr TL boolit, or a 158gr SAECO boolit that I don't have as many of, but I have the mould. (I got the Lee boolits in a trade). I also want a load that will absolutely leave the barrel each time, so it has to have enough power to do that. My mother is still at the stage where she can't tell if a shot actually hit the target or not, and I don't want her to blow up her gun, or herself!

Would 2gr of trail boss be enough to make sure the boolit left the bore, but still be almost as light as a 22? I mean it doesn't have to be exactly the same, it could be a bit heavier, but I wouldn't want it to be much heavier, as my plan was to get her shooting the light loads, and over time increase them gradually so she wouldn't even notice the difference til I get her shooting strong enough loads to be used for self defense. Also, we're supposed to go shooting tomorrow, so that doesn't leave a whole lot of time to get another mould! I like the idea of the Lee 105gr boolit, I can get a 2 cavity mould, as it's not something I'm going to cast tons of!

[fecmech]

You can't get where you want to go with what you have, you need a lighter bullet. Recoil from a .22 in a M34 is about .5 ft lbs, from a 158 at 600 FPS it's about 4 ft lbs. You would need to get down around 300 fps with a 158 to be close and I don't think you could do that and not stick a bullet. You can play with the numbers here http://handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp A .22 out of a Model 34 runs about 950-1000 fps (I own one).

[williamwaco]

2.7 grains of Bullseye with a 148 grain wadcutter is very close, and very accurate, and has been a favorite of pistol shooters for way over 50 years.

Use a lighter bullet and there sill be virtually no recoil.

[para45lda]

What kind of boolits do you have on hand?

If you're going to the range tomorrow you're going to have to work with what you've got.

Wes

[GRUMPA]

I use a old ideal (I think) 110gr wadcutter with 2gr bullseye and wsp. In the handgun boy are they whimpy but fun to shoot, in the levergun you have to almost imagine recoil, very little if any.

[MikeS]

You can play with the numbers here http://handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp A .22 out of a Model 34 runs about 950-1000 fps (I own one).

Thanks for the link. It brings up yet more questions, and possibly more calculators :) For purposes of comparison, how many grains of powder would be appropriate for a .22 standard velocity cartridge? Also, is that calculator designed to measure cartridges of the same caliber? I'm assuming that when it asks for powder charge it's assuming the same powder, as 6gr of unique would be quite different than 6gr of 2400. So how can that calculator give a result that's even close considering the large differences in guns?

[Le Loup Solitaire]

The answer here is firstly to shoot a much lighter bullet than 158 grain. A 148 grain wc with 2.7 grains of BE is already a light load. But recoil has different meaning for different folks. Another possible solution if the shooter is recoil sensitive is to load up 50 or 100 cases (flash-hole properly prepared) with no powder-primer only and wax bullets (by simply pushing the case mouth into a 1/2" cake of wax before priming.) Wax bullet loads can shoot very well into a target in front of a cardboard box set up at 25 feet. If you go below 2.7 grains of BE with a lighter bullet you will most likely not get a pill stuck in a 4" barrel, and even if you do then getting it out is not difficult. BUT,Until you have established that the load and bullet that you are using is not even close to sticking, I would check the barrel visually after each shot. The object is to get the shooter used to light recoil with minimum noise and recoil and then work up from there. It will take a bit of planning, but it will work out well. Better safe than sorry! LLS

[MikeS]

What kind of boolits do you have on hand?

If you're going to the range tomorrow you're going to have to work with what you've got.

Wes

That's what I was thinking. I only have 158gr boolits, either Lee TL type, or SAECO conventionally lubed ones, but for this application I don't think the lube will really make a difference. I wonder if maybe a slower powder might make the felt recoil much less? I have 2400 and 4759, but I don't think either would really work well in such a reduced load. For faster powders I have bullseye, unique, and trail boss. I was thinking of using the trail boss, as it's bulk would make measuring such small amounts easier. I already have some loads with 3gr of 700X that I loaded a while ago, but I was thinking they might be a bit too heavy for my mother to start with, but would be a good intermediate load once she can handle the lighter loads easily. She has no problem with the recoil from a .22 from a gun basically the same size (it's the same frame size, but with a slightly longer barrel).

[dnotarianni]

Not going to happen with a 158 gr bullet. Since it's mom and she just wants to shoot and it's a 2" barrel get some 90gr 380 boolits and put 2 gr of bullseye behind it. Not going to get much lighter and at 15-20 feet she will hit something.
Dave

[JayinAZ]

Thanks for the link. It brings up yet more questions, and possibly more calculators :) For purposes of comparison, how many grains of powder would be appropriate for a .22 standard velocity cartridge? Also, is that calculator designed to measure cartridges of the same caliber? I'm assuming that when it asks for powder charge it's assuming the same powder, as 6gr of unique would be quite different than 6gr of 2400. So how can that calculator give a result that's even close considering the large differences in guns?

The mass of the powder is part of the total mass of the ejecta, which all counts in figuring recoil.

[SlowSmokeN]

I use 158g swc, with 4g Unique. Shoot about 250 a week. It is a great load with little to no recoil. Shooting out of a Ruger GP100, 6" barrel.

[geargnasher]

MikeS, something nobody has yet mentioned is what exactly the experience of recoil is. A 2" .38 revolver spits fire and weighs next to nothing, so the experience of the blast and flash is worse for many shooters than the actual recoil impulse.

My recommendation is load up a box of your 158 grain boolits with either the lightest liste BE load or go ahead and try the TB (not sure how low you can go) and make sure your mother is fitted with a heavy set of good, 30dB-reduction muffs and some dark shooting glasses, and maybe even a light fingerless glove. Overkill on the equipment that insulates the shooter from the blast can make all the difference.

I understand your thinking of slow powders to reduce the recoil, but fireballs out the muzzle from still-burning slow powder that wasn't burning anywhere near the pressure it needs to burn cleanly in the barrel is counterproductive to both the load and the shooting experience.

Gear

[Fly-guy]

Hi All.

I want to load some 38 Special loads that will have recoil about the same as 22 long rifle. My mother has been shooting a .22 Smith model 34 (I think that's the model, it's a J frame), and she also has a model 60 that I want her to get used to shooting.

I have bullseye, unique, trail boss, and some slower powders as well to work with. How low can I go before I need to start worrying about a 158gr boolit getting stuck in a 2" barrel? I was kind of thinking of trying 2gr of trail boss, or possibly less. So what does anyone think?



I would be more concerned about an implosion than sticking a bullet in the barrel. An implosion occures when a small powder charge burns from the base of the bullet back towards the primer which in turn creates excessive preasure. I know for a fact that pressure from an implosion will destroy the firearm!

[Jal5]

I load the 158 SWC, 148 WC, and the 105 SWC for 38 spl in my 6" S&W M66, and there really is a different experience for each one. The 148 WC is a midrange load, easy in this gun. The 105 SWC though is like a 22LR round. The 158 is the most powerful of the three. Of late I use Bullseye for all three. Joe

[Recluse]

Recoil is a combination of velocity and mass. Try a lighter boolit like the Lee 105 swc.

Yep, I use this boolit with 2.7 grains of Bullseye for loads my wife and daughter shoot. They can even shoot this out of their Airweight .38's with no recoil.

It's also a very accurate load.

:coffee:

[Echo]

I like the idea of the Lee 105gr boolit, I can get a 2 cavity mould, as it's not something I'm going to cast tons of!

Don't be too sure. That boolit makes a great popcorn load in 38's. I load them to give to folks, along with the borrow of a combat Masterpiece, for girls and kids that need something less dramatic than the 357 their coach/husband/boyfriend/parent is trying to use to teach them. I cast a lot of 'em.

[Loki610]

x10 on the lee 105grain

I got one in a 2 cavity to try and its great! not the most accurate but the girls at the range seem to love shooting it. I load it in front of 2.5grains clays, no idea of the velocity.
Load a gun with 3 158's and 3 105's, spin the cylinder and lock up. You'll definitely feel the difference in recoil when you hit one of the 105's

[.22-10-45]

Hello, few years ago, I wanted to try out a Kirst .38 long-colt conversion cyl. in my 1972 era Colt 1851 navy .36 percussion revolver. No bullets to be found! What to do?
I chucked up some Lyman 358212 & used a ball-end mill to create a hollow base .12 deep.
This brought weight down around 98grs. Used from 1.8gr. to 2.0gr. Bullseye (any heaver & gun shot too high). Very accurate & very light recoil.

[olafhardt]

You can get 000 buckshot for 20-30 $/#. An empty 22 short case with a wire handle throws 2 grains of BE approximately. I filed one down a little and load 0 buckshot with 231 in my top break 32 s&w.

[MikeS]

Well, I loaded up 50 of the 158gr Lee TL boolits with 2gr of Trail Boss. I'm going to try them at the range in my model 60 to see how they shoot before I give them to my mother. I really need to get a lazer grip for my gun, as my father made it into a pocket gun by cutting off the hammer spur, and the front sight! Luckily my mother's still has it's sights on it. I figure if it'll shoot out of mine, it'll shoot out of hers, and I can get an idea of just how much, or how little recoil the load has compared to factory loads.

[303Guy]

Don't underestimate a woman's ability to handle recoil. She might just love a little felt recoil. The load you're proposing is not going to put her off one little bit.

[ku4hx]

90-100 grain boolit over a minimum charge in my 6" heavy barrel GP-100 barely jumps at all. But if I'm looking for .22LR-like recoil, I just shoot a .22LR. Specifically my old S&W model 63.

My experience with women and recoil is pretty much the same as with men: it's the blast that gets them mostly I feel. More than once I've successfully muted the sound with earplugs+muffs and had great success. Not 100% of the time, but unless they're starting out with a cartridge that's really inappropriate for any new shooter generally the tactic works. Dark glasses helps too sometimes with the idea being to reduce certain sensory inputs to as low a level as possible when first starting out.

[x101airborne]

May I ask.... If she shoots a 22 and shoots it fairly well, why transition her to a model 60? Are you just wanting to cut costs by handloading? Just asking.

As far as the lee goes, at that low pressure, be sure to cast your boolits out of near pure lead or at least 20-1. This will allow maximum obturation of the boolit at those low pressures.

[x101airborne]

BTW..... I have a couple older Lyman wadcutter molds if you would like to either borrow the molds or I could cast you some for free to try.

[winelover]

Don't underestimate a woman's ability to handle recoil. She might just love a little felt recoil.


That's what I've found with the misses. I load RCBS-158-SWCGC over 5.0 grs of Unique as practice loads for our (SS) J-frame. She loves my 6" Python and her hunting handgun is a 7 1/2" BH in 45LC using Ruger only loads. She has taken two deer with the BH. She settled on the BH cause her only other choice, in lower Michigan, was a 12 guage with rifled slugs. That's where she draws the line.



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_91704f3ba81007841.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3952)


Winelover:cbpour:


Winelover

[cajun shooter]

You can't change the law of simple physics. As several people have posted, the part that you are locked into by using the 158 grain bullets will give you the recoil of it moving down the barrel.
Remember that for every force there is a equal and opposite force.
Purchase some of the very light 38 caliber bullets such as 105, 120 grains to have a reduced load.
You have to be careful when trying to lighten loads too much as there is a quirk that may occur when light loads are fired. They are not sure what takes place but they have many destroyed guns that show it does occur.
Be careful of your component choices. Later David

[Mk42gunner]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is to make sure the grips fit her hand. This probably will not be the same ones that feel good to you.

One of the most miserable to shoot revolvers that I can remember firing was when I qualified with a round butt Model 36 J-frame with factory stocks. Recoil was brisk with 130gr GI ball. Put a different set of grips one it and it was almost a pussycat to shoot.

Robert

[mdi]

With what you have on hand, I'd mention 3.0 gr. Bullseye. Try 'em. (Recoil is a J Frame's middle name!). If you had 'em; 148 wadcutter with 2.7 Bullseye, or a 125 gr LFRN with 3.2 of Bullseye. My 2" .38 Special barks pretty good with just about anything I shoot in it...

[MikeS]

May I ask.... If she shoots a 22 and shoots it fairly well, why transition her to a model 60? Are you just wanting to cut costs by handloading? Just asking.

Unlike me, who enjoys shooting on many levels, her primary reason for shooting is for self defense, and that will be done much better with a 38 than a 22. I just want to make up some light loads for her so the transition from 22 to full power 38's isn't a big jump. In reality the recoil could be more than a 22, as long as it's still fairly light. I figured that she could shoot a very light load until she's comfortable with the gun, then she could start shooting progressively stronger loads until she can shoot a full power self defense load with complete comfort.

I've told her that there's no sense in her carrying a gun if she's halfway afraid of it (or more correctly afraid of shooting it). She's already decided that she would have no problem shooting somebody if it was a 'him or me' situation, so now I want her to get so comfortable shooting the gun, and handling the gun that it's second nature to her. I figure going from a 22 directly to a 38 (factory self defense load) would be a big jump, but if she started out with light loads, and worked her way up to the strong stuff she would have a better chance getting the needed familiarity with the gun she's going to carry.

[x101airborne]

Ah, yes. That would be a big jump. I see your point. Like I said, if you wish to borrow the wadcutter molds (one or both) you are welcome to.

Yes, I think that trasitioning her over to a good 38 is a good idea. In the mean time, any thought of her carrying 22 stingers in her pistol? A darn brutal round, perfect for belly shooting two legged snakes. (Well, as perfect as a 22 gets for that application.)

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

not sure you would need to get her all the way to +p defense rounds or even full 38 loads

a simple wad cutter load , would make a bad guys day very bad also

and be something she can be very comfortable with , think 38 s&w velocities 750 fps , it worked for the police years ago and it beats a 22

but a lot of people have died from a 22lr shot

[Jal5]

Mike let me know if you want some of those 105 SWC to try out, I have a bunch of them .358 sized and lube is TL in 45/45/10 IIRC.
Joe

[rsrocket1]

My favorite low recoil load is 2.5g Red Dot under a 158g lead bullet. Works well with Bear Creek Moly Coated, Silver State Round nose, and Lee 358-158-RF. I recently went cheaper and have used 2.8g Bullseye with the same load and it works just fine.

Too low a load with too slow a powder and too light a bullet will lead to blow by around the case because it cannot seal up with the low pressure.

I'll bet the Trail Boss with the 158's will be just fine. Out of a 2" barrel, you can just about get away with a primer to shoot the bullet out (I would not make it a practice, but I did that out of a 4" barrel gun last year and chrono'ed it at 231 fps).

See if your mother likes the Trail Boss rounds. Yes, they'll be more than a 22LR, but even a 22 magnum will be more than a 22LR.

[Lizard333]

I use the lee 148 gn dewc with 3.6 gns of 231. Very light recoil. Very accurate as well. You have been offered other bullets, but I'll throw my name on the hat. I'll send you a couple hundred for nothing if you like. My wife, and 7 yr old love shooting this round as well.

[GLL]

Either the NOE 360-75gr. or the NOE 360-100gr. wadcutter over a light charge of BE produce a fun afternoon of shooting cans and water-filled plastic bottles for my grandkids.

Jerry


http://www.fototime.com/30B1D43AC8ADF60/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/79C7CC8394CD19D/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/9A8ACD36B463D8F/standard.jpg

[303Guy]

When I first fired my new 44 mag I was so shell shocked I couldn't even hit the backstop! Mind you, I was ill at the time which prolly didn't help any. So I loaded up some "44 special" loads and went to it. Still plenty recoil but more of a push. Rather nice to shoot actually. Then I moved on up to 44 mag loads and all was good.

One day at the range .... this fella arrived with his young girlfriend and we all got to chatting so I offered her to shoot my 22 revolver. After that without batting an eyelid I offered to shoot my 44 mag. Hee hee! :mrgreen: I did have the decency to stand behind so I could catch my gun.:roll: It was hilarious! Anyway, after the initial shock she carried on shooting it! She went up in my esteem several points. Partly for being a good sport.:Fire:

[para45lda]

Well??? How did it go? 158 grn and 3.5 grains of Clays was my typical "gamer" cowboy load for plates. Heavy bullet moving reeaall slow. Tee Hee.

Wes

[Centaur 1]

The weight of the gun has a lot to do with felt recoil. I was loading 158 grain swc with 3.6 grains of bullseye and they were fine in my S&W 19, but in my Colt PPS the gun felt like it wanted to jump out of my hand. I bought the Lee 105 grain mold and haven't looked back. The best part is your lead stash will last longer with the lighter boolit.

[cajun shooter]

Mike, Let me add one thing that is from all my years of training hundreds of female police officers. If they are afraid of a gun or the mere thought of shooting it, they will show very poor performance.
Many things have been posted here that are good training aids. The fit of the gun, the type of ammo used and the use of light loads.
We had a saying in the training circles of firearms instructors when the Dirty Harry wanna be's showed up.
A HIT WITH A 38 BEATS THE HECK OUT OF A MISS WITH A 44.
The same thing applies to your wife's current status as you stated she shows no interest in shooting.
It would be much better to train her with that 22 than to force any other gun on her that she will be predisposed to not want to shoot.
I saw more people killed with the 22 caliber gun than any other.
With the 22 ammo that is sold today, it's very capable of keeping someone off your self. The CCI 22's that are loaded with the Gold Dots are very wicked.
Watch the Gator hunters in Louisiana killing gators that weigh over 1000 pounds with one shot to the head.
Teach her to shoot center mass until the gun is empty and she will survive. Later David

[Castlead]

I loaded about 2000 light loads for my uncle who had parkinsons, 158 gr boolet over 2.5gr bullseye. He had no problem shooting them but couldn't load the cylinder. He enjoyed the pop and thought the "pattern " was good cuz he couldn't see the target! (RIP old friend. Hope you can load the cylinder up there)

[303Guy]

I'd try the Trail Boss under those 158's. I'm scared of empty space in a case and Trail Boss solves that.

[beagle]

I'll go along with this selection. That makes a mighty fine little paper puncherand can perforator and small game and pest bullet and the recoild to me is very mild.

Wish I had all the BUllseye I've shot up with this load back in the old bullseye days./beagle


2.7 grains of Bullseye with a 148 grain wadcutter is very close, and very accurate, and has been a favorite of pistol shooters for way over 50 years.

Use a lighter bullet and there sill be virtually no recoil.

[nonferrous]

Maybe the way to ease her in, is to start with a heavier gun. When my wife wanted to start with handguns, I dug out my old K-38 6 inch and started her out with the standard target load, 158 SWC and 3 grains of Clays.
First year out, she won the Ladies division of our harley Group shootout. She never ever mentioned recoil.

[MikeS]

Well, neither one of us made it to the range! I've been fighting off some kind of bug, it feels like a cold, but just won't go away! I should clarify, while my mother has no interest in organized shooting, she has no problem with plinking, or informal shooting at paper targets. So far she's only shot 22's but after reading some of the responses here, I talked to her about the 38 and she said it doesn't have to be as light as the 22's, as long as it's not so strong that it's going to jerk the gun from her hands (I think my father might have told her that anything more than a 22 was too strong for a woman), so after I verify that my 158gr boolits loaded with 2gr of trail boss will in fact not get stuck in the 2" barrel, we're going to start with that load. My father being 83 when he died a couple of years ago had many ideas about women that wouldn't be popular today to say the least! While he enjoyed my mother shooting with him, he kept her shooting 22's. Thinking back I think my father himself might have not handled recoil too well. He had a few 1911's that he rarely shot, as he felt there was no need for those 'cannons', and a 32ACP was just as good in his view. This worked out well for me, as I got to shoot many of his 45's!