Mosin Nagant Questions

[bmblong]

There's a gun show next weekend. I was thinking about picking up a Mosin Nagant. I have some questions first. Will Lyman .30 caliber gas checks fit Lee's C312-185-1R bullet mold? Will these rifles shoot cast bullets OK? If I can't cast and shoot one of these for cheap, I don't want one. Any thoughts and experiences with this would be appreciated.

[Junior1942]

The Hornady 30 caliber gaschecks fit that mold's ww alloy bullets just fine. My M38 M-N shoots circa 2" 3-shot 50 yard cast bullet groups, but the bore is .316".

I use that bullet at .314" w/1.3cc 2400 for 1400 fps. Any faster and it wobbles due to the big bore.

[Ricochet]

Bores are rather variable in these things. Slug it. Mine run .312-.313". Some are .308".

[Maven]

bmbl, While the MN's can be had for a reasonable price, why not spend a bit more and look for a Finnish Nagant, e.g., a Model 39? They are superbly accurate cast bullet shooters and very well put together + the front sight is easily adjustable for windage.

[bmblong]

To be honest I don't know really that much about them. I looked at brass availability, bullet mold availability, and price. I've got the itch to buy another gun and I know that they are at the gun show coming up for no more than $100 out the door. I haven't loaded cast bullets for centerfire rifle yet and thought it would be a good cheap place to start.

[truckjohn]

Usually the trouble with Mosins is that they have shot thousands of corrosive copper jacketed rounds before you got them.

Cast boolits have one big advantage -- you can make them in the size you want.

They also have a couple giant disadvantages -- The barrels of these are usually filled with copper jacket, frosted, and pitted..... Brass is not that common -- Milsurp steel case shells are berdan/corrosive primed. Most commercial ammo is berdan/steel cased.... but there is some out there that is boxer primed -- but you pretty much gotta mail order it (Wolf gold, S&B, Winchester) Brass is available from Grafs and Norma..... pricey.

Many of them are also belled out in the middle from cleaning with the short cleaning rod (mine is only about 3/4 as long as the barrel)

That all being said, you could buy one with a good barrel, mine the copper in the barrel, JB out the powder trash and cosmoline, then fire lap to work out whatever pitting/frosting might be in there.... Then get a mold fitted to your bore -- and then have a rifle that shoots cast better than jacketed.

If you just want something cheap to shoot -- Mosin Mil-surp ammo is really really cheap. Its hard to reload anything for $39.00/400 rounds unless bullets and brass are free.....

Best regards

John

[TDB9901]

I can't speak from actual experience yet, but just for your info..I recently got am M44 with what appears to be a nearly pristine bore.

My buddy with FFL let me have my pick from several. Haven't shot any cast through it yet, but see no reason why it shouldn't be OK. Most all that he got in slugged in the .314-.315 range....... bores ran from nearly new in a couple of 44's to barely passable in a couple of 38's. The 91/30's seemed to be somewhere in the middle.... in this bunch.

This is of course just this particular lot. Just check close and be picky, I've heard of good results from them if fed properly. Hope to find out for myself soon.

Good Luck

Tom

[tanstafl10]

my sons and I have 4... cannot complain about any of them. Thought my son was crazy for buying one, until I shot it. Love at first shot. So I went and bought one for each of us. I was just being an 03/A3 snob. The oldest now has both a rifle and a carbine. The MN are fine rifles.

Played with cast in mine and it is doing very well. As good as the 03/A3 at this point. I think you will have fun with one. Get it and enjoy.

[Buckshot]

..............A Finnish M39 as Maven said would be the thing for someone wanting a M-N type rifle for shooting without much fuss or bother. If I knew I was going to be getting one I could go out and buy most any rifle mould dropping a 30 cal slug up to .312" and have a good shooter.

So far as I know the M91-30 M-N's I see for sale around at retail places have come out of military store. The word is that they were all sent through for arsenal checking/refurbishment then stored. I have bought 2 in the past couple years, both from a sporting goods chain called Big 5. They were priced at $89 on sale, regular $139. They came with a bunch of 'goodies'.

Both were in V-good external condition with 100% bluing and all matching (forced) serial numbers. In both cases the barrels had nice sharp lands. The bores had some shine but they tended to a bit of frost in the grooves. The frost is fine small pitting that disrupts an otherwise smooth, light reflecting (shiney) metal surface.

This frosting presents no real detriment to shooting cast. However both rifles have a .314" groove. When you get into a groove of that size, your selection of moulds takes a large nosedive in availability. The one common design being the Lyman 314299. To back that up there have been 3 "Fat 30" Lee custom moulds done and one independantly by Nu Judge to meet the need of folks wnating to feed Japs, .303's, Argentines, and Mosin-Nagants.

In order to feed a very nice M1909 Argentine cavalry carbine with a .314" groove and a .303 bore (the bore was the issue) I used Lyman's 8mm 323470 at .324", lube sized it to .323" then ran it up through a Lee .314" die. Since the Lyman 8mm mould is a Loverin there was no bore rider to worry about and the slug shot very well. So that is another possibility.

There are no real flies on the M-N design other then appearing a bit ungainly and clubbish but they grow on you after awile. I WILL say that the Russian issue triggers are rather poor, as you're pulling against stacking pressure from a flat spring. I understand the Finn versions are better in that regard.

http://www.fototime.com/6F0F6C6399F8F50/standard.jpg

This was the first 'refurbed' M91-30 I got from Big 5, there is nothing especially notable about it as other then the color of the stock, the 2nd was pretty much just like it. The first was from the Tula aresenal and the second from Ishevesk. They are only possibly difficult to get shooting due to possible barrel dimensions, barring a poor eroded or damaged bore.

.................Buckshot

[Junior1942]

>I used Lyman's 8mm 323470 at .324", lube sized it to .323" then ran it up through a Lee .314" die.

Buckshot, how hard was that to do? What size gascheck did you use?

[bmblong]

I saw the fattest .30 group buy going on and thought maybe that was too fat. From what I'm hearing probably not. I'll know when I leave the gun show if I'm going to get into it.

[hornetguy]

I have tried some of the 314299's in my carbine, and they show great promise. I got a few 1.5" to 2" groups at 50yds, without really working on the load.
The problem I ran into initially was that when I seated the boolits in the cases, some would not chamber. I'm assuming I have a tight throated chamber (haven't cerrosafe'd it yet) for the bore size of about .314. I ended up turning the outside of the necks to thin them down, and the problem went away.
I have loaded the Lyman 30 cal (can't remember the number) that theoretically shouldn't do well, being undersized... and it shot some 2" groups as well.
I was using S&B once fired brass. Lapua or one of the other "premium" brands might not have that problem.
I can't think of a better entry level "budget" rifle for shooting boolits in....

[Ricochet]

I do think the fattest .30s are too fat for the M-Ns. First off, I think the .317" barrels are a small minority. I think around .310-.312" is typical for the Russian ones, and the Finns used .308-.310" barrels. Fat bullets run into problems seating into the cases. I ruined a bunch of Graf brass trying to seat .314" boolits in cases sized for .308" bullets. Belling the case mouth won't prevent the tight necks from pushing down and crushing the case. They have to be sized with a larger expander ball or neck mandrel such as one from a .303 British die set. Secondly, there's the chambering problem noted above. Lyman's old Cast Bullet Handbook included a notice that, though many Mosin Nagants have groove diameters larger than .310", they recommended against using larger diameter bullets due to chambers being unable to accommodate larger bullets.

[Buckshot]

>I used Lyman's 8mm 323470 at .324", lube sized it to .323" then ran it up through a Lee .314" die.

Buckshot, how hard was that to do? What size gascheck did you use?

...............Not hard at all. I used the 8mm (32 cal) GC.

Ricochet,

"I do think the fattest .30s are too fat for the M-Ns. First off, I think the .317" barrels are a small minority."

.............Unsized, probably they are too large, except for the largest. However the premis of the various "Fat 30" GB's has been, "It's easier to size down, then to size up", :-)

"I think around .310-.312" is typical for the Russian ones,..."

.............From the 4 I have, and from other info I'm going to disagree on the Russian ones and say .312" to .314" is more typical.

"Fat bullets run into problems seating into the cases. I ruined a bunch of Graf brass trying to seat .314" boolits in cases sized for .308" bullets. "

.............True, so you have to be prepared to have your brass set up (as you said, maybe use a .303 expander) to accept the larger boolits. Like trying to load some .461" slugs in brass prepared with 45 Colt dies for a .452" slug.

................Buckshot

[Junior1942]

My M-38 M-N has a bore which is both big and oval shaped. Two slugs gave me the same readings from two micrometers--groove = .316" & .317"; bore = .305" & .306".

I lapped out a Lee .314" die to .315" and will try it today with bullets from the Lee C312-185-1R. With the Lee .314" die with the C312-185-1R bullets I start getting oval holes and larger groups at circa 1500 fps.

I have on order a Lee expander rod for the 32-40 Winchester which should mic circa .321". I'll grind it down and try it with one of the fattest 30 Group Buy bullets when the molds become available.

I really like my M-38. It is lightweight and will make a perfect bolt action walkabout rifle when I get it to shooting cast at a decent velocity.

It shoots the Hornady 174 gr RN .312" jacketed ok, 2" to 3" @ 50 yards, but I'd like to get my hands on some .318" 8x57J jacketed bullets. If they will chamber loaded, fine, but if not I could run them through a reamed Lee size die and reduce their diameter.

I have a bunch (1000) of jacketed 150 gr .323" "blem" bullets. Wonder if I could reduce them to .317" in a reamed Lee size die?

[bruce drake]

Junior,

I did the same thing Buckshot did for an 7.7 Arisaka project of my own. Independent of Buckshot's experiment, I used Lee's .323 170gr RN as well as Herters .323 170gr Spirepoint (32cal group buy Gascheck) and sized them down with a Lee .314 sizethru die. I lubed the .323 sized bullets with a Lyman 45 with Alox 50/50 at .323 and then used Lee's Liquid Alox for the second sizing. Not a difficult job to resize. I even used a Lee Handpress to do the second resize. Lube grooves were shallower than before the sizing but not enough to not have a lube star at the end of the 24" barrel after shooting.

This experiment took an Arisaka from shooting minute of target frame down to a 4" group at 100. I'm happy with that.

Bruce

[Buckshot]

"It shoots the Hornady 174 gr RN .312" jacketed ok, 2" to 3" @ 50 yards, but I'd like to get my hands on some .318" 8x57J jacketed bullets. If they will chamber loaded, fine, but if not I could run them through a reamed Lee size die and reduce their diameter. "

.................I've got a box of Norma .318" jacketed slugs. I don't recall the weight at the moment. You can have them for $12 + shp. If interested, PM me and I'll get you their weight. They may be heavier then you want or need as I'm thinking they're about 200grs, but it's been a long time since I've seen them :-)

.................Buckshot

[plasma]

I have to agree with Ricochet.

All of my 5 MN 91-30's slug at .311 to .3115. Four of these are war vintage so variation would be expected.

[gregg]

MY MN44 is .315