BHN, Leading,Gas checks and such

[beefyz]

Hi...Quite long post & questions. Please stay w/me. Just can't understand this.Trying to use Missouri Bullet 158 Rangers @ BHN18 in .357 mag rifle ONLY. Using their formula to determine optimal bullet hardness to avoid leading and getting good accuracy, 95% of the loads you plug in all show a BHN of 25 or thereabouts, just w/MB is trying to have you avoid doing; using bullets with way to high BHN. MB will not supply load data. I called Lyman, and they said just about opposite."Use any load in the data we give for that bullet, in this case #2 alloy BHN 13-15, and you will not get leading". All of the pressures in this data if applied to the MB formula yield bullets with BHNs higher than what MB is recommending, roughly 25-28 BHN. Another competitor, Lead Heads, states BHNs 18-22 will suffice with velocities up to 1,100-1,200. This goes against Lyman above using lower BHN numbers and shooting at higher velocities with their data. I'm totally confused?????
Naturally, the goal is to shoot cast. I'm throwing way to much jacketed downrange. Many are suggesting GCs to avoid the leading and getting better accuracy to boot. But then i see gas checked bullets cost just about the same as jacketed, so why buy lead to begin with. I'm not trying to hit the moon, but everyone is saying something different about using plain base bullets. One says NO GC needed up to 1,900fps. Another 18BHN is OK with pressures up to 34,000cup.Another 18BHN ok up to 1,500fps. And when i even can find some data, it doesn't agree with whats published. Someone suggested 6gr unique load w/that 158 M ranger. Yet, Lyman doesn't use unique for this bullet and although Lee shows a unique load, 6g would be below their start load of 6.2.What the hells going on here? I've been referred by many to you guys here. Would you please help me out with this and explain ? Just want plinking loads. Velocities between 1,000-1,500 w/ decent accuracy and w/o leading. Is it possible? Who's got the best data out there? Lyman says just shoot whats published, but like i said, based on MB column, thats a one way ticket to leading and poor accuracy.

[geargnasher]

Don't get wrapped around the BHN/pressure axle, it's valid most of the time, but there are other things that you need to sort out first that are FAR more important. You can also forget most of what Lyman told you about alloy and pressure. SO.....

First, the boolit must fit the gun so it makes a leak-free seal from cartridge to muzzle or it will lead the gun, no matter how hard it is or what powder you use, or whether or not you use gas checks. "Slugging" the barrel with a DEAD SOFT lead slug to determine groove diameter is job one of achieving fit. Job two is loading a "dummy" round with your chosen boolit and pulling it so you can measure to see if the case is swaging it down undersized. As a general guideline, the boolit should enter the bore .001" larger than groove diameter. This is one of the keys to keep lead deposits (and accuracy) where they should be.

Second, use a decent lube. Any of the off-the-shelf stuff that fills the grooves should be good enough.

Third, BALANCE THE LOAD. If you're using really hard boolits, don't use really fast powders. Use slower powders, and expect to need to work them up pretty hot for best overall performance. Plinking loads with fast powders usually work best with softer boolits than you have, but ultimately your rifle and components will tell you what works and what doesn't. We can make recommendations based on our experience, but since I'm not using your gun or equipment, your results will likely be slightly different.

Gear

[PacMan]

What rifle are you shooting?

[Wolfer]

I agree with gearnasher but am I to understand you haven't actually shot any of these bullets yet?
I've found if your bullet fits ( .001-.003 over grove diameter ) then bhn can be pretty wide for
plinking loads. At 1100-1200 fps you shouldn't need a gas check.
IMO unique is an excellent powder for 357 @ 1000-1200 fps.

[Larry Gibson]

beefyz

Gear and I somewhat disagree on this topic. Lee (and others) is partially correct in equating BHN to bullet strength failure and loss of accuracy. It is correct in many instances. However, I've found there are many instances where it is not. As an example let me show you the Oehler M43 data and 10 shot group at 100 yards from a test of 49 gr AA4350 under a 311466 in a .308W with 14" twist barrel. Note the muzzle velocity is 2585 fps and the average psi(M43) is 38,300.

That 311466 bullet is cast and AC'd with an alloy that gives it a BHN of 18 with Lee's testor. According to Lee's chart/formula, and every one else's, that bullet should have had strength failure at 25,500 psi. Yet at 2585 fps and 38,300 psi it still shoots into 1.5 moa with 10 shots (7 shots in 1 moa). If the BHN is directly proportional to bullet strength failure and subsequent accuracy loss how is this happening?

I'll save everybody the [smilie=b: and not bring up the RPm threshold but there it is:killingpc

Any one with a Win .32 SPL with 16" twist, or any 35 - 375 cal with 14"+ twist barrels that pushes #2, WW or softer alloys at 2200+ fps with accuracy is doing the same thing; exceeding the bullet strength failure point of the BHN vs psi theory.

I love :cbpour: , especially at high velocity:bigsmyl2:

Larry Gibson

[beefyz]

Let me clarify. I know about slugging the barrel. This is for a .357 rossi '92. I have NOT loaded up any cast yet. i want to do that. No one has answered my question yet. Assuming barrel has been slugged, i have correct bullet size etc and everything else"balanced", Can PB cast be shot at 1,500+ velocities w/o leading and with decent accuracy? If so what is the optimal BHN at these higher velocities. Why are so many people saying so many different things? How can one be shooting at these higher velocities w/o leading while another says you can't go above 1,200 w/PB bullets? Someone has got to be wrong. And then how do i interpret the obvious contradictions between the suppossed "experts" like Lyman, MB, & Leadheads ?

[Larry Gibson]

beefyz

Velocities between 1,000-1,500 w/ decent accuracy and w/o leading. Is it possible?

Now to answer the question; it is certainly possible. I drive a 358156 cast of WWs+2%tin and lead at 50/50 to 1450 fps out of my 6" barreled Ruger SS with excellent accuracy and no leading. I drive the same bullet with the same load at 1550 fps from my Contender with excellent accuracy and no leading. I also drive the same bullet/same alloy from a 20" carbine at 1800 fps, again with excellent accuracy and no leading.

I've sized those bullets .357 - .360 with no difference in accuracy and no leading with any of them. I use javelina lube on them BTW.

As for Unique loads with that bullet I suggest 6.2 as a start and 6.8 as a maximum (7 gr under the 358156 is right at the SAAMI MAP of 36,000 psi for the 357 magnum). Unique is not the powder I used in the above mentioned loads but it is a very serviceable powder with 150 - 160 gr cast bullets in the 357 for moderate level magnum loads.

Can PB cast be shot at 1,500+ velocities w/o leading and with decent accuracy?

You can get usable accuracy in the 1500 - 1550 fps range with a true FB'd cast bullet. If a good lube is used such as Javelina, BAC or 2500+ then you should also get no leading. WW with 2% tin alloy will serve you well. The BHN of AC'd bullets from such will be in the 14 - 16 range. Accuracy will be much better with the GC'd bullet however, especially if you want to push to higher velocity.

The answer to your other questions as to "why" is because many want a pat answer to a question and do not consider the adverse affect of higher RPM on cast bullets. Additionally as to PB'd cast bullets the alloy BHN is only half the equation also. Many consider BHN alone and do not consider the other half; malleability of the alloy. Some alloys of the same BHN can be brittle while others are malleable or "tougher" as some call it. In my own experience of considerable testing I find BB'd PB'd cast bullets of a harder BHN (18 - 23) to be limited to under 1550 fps. A hard but "tough" alloyed FB'd bullet with a BHN of 18 - 25 can be driven with very usable accuracy upwards of 1800 fps, especially with larger calibers like the .35s - .45s.

Larry Gibson

[462]

When it comes to shooting cast boolits, I think there are very few definitive answers, but there are some truisms, such as Bret420's "Fit is King". Then, there are the "may or may nots", such as a gas check is required above 1400 fps, and the Kroil and the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die controversies.

One day, I decided to test Lee's BHN/pressure formula. I used a Lee hardness tester to test my various alloys, and Lee's numbers that came with the tester. I discovered that all the pressures of my non-leading handgun loads (didn't run the rifle numbers) significantly exceeded Lee's figures. So, while the various BHN/pressure formulas may work for some, I don't use them.

I don't try to find the quick and easy boolit answers, because I don't think they exist. All I know for sure is what has and has not worked for me. To each his own method and results.

[runfiverun]

i have the rossi 92 in 357 and you can push 12 bhn boolits to 1500 no problems.
in the 44 and 45 and 44-40 also.
i have gone well over 1650 with an alloy of ww's and soft 80-20 plain based with 2400 in all 4 of the cartridges.
the 357 i have has a 20" Bbl, i routinely push the lyman rnfp in it to 1200 with herco [mainly because i picked up 8 lbs of it for 100.00]
but have worked 2400 from 7 grs up through 13 grs with it.
i found that sizing to 359 to work better [for mine] at the high end, and 358 does fine up to about 11 grs of 2400.

[williamwaco]

Geargnasher and Larry Gibson are two of my go-to guys. I almost never disagree with either of them. This time all I can say is:

Yikes!

You are a beginner. Even Stephen Hawking had to start with 2+2.

This is supposed to be fun!

Forget all this overthinking.
Load 'em and shoot 'em.

Don't try to solve problems you haven't encountered yet.

Have some fun.


.


.


.

[btroj]

I frequently shoot a plain base bullet to over 1600 fps in my Marlin 357 with very good accuracy.

It is about the balance of things more than any one factor. Cast is not something where you can just follow a set recipe and always get specific results. Too many variables. Bullets vary in design in many ore ways than just PB vs GC. Those design differences can frequently be far more important too!

Can it be done? Yep, sure can. Can it also fail miserably? Sure can. It just depends on what the gun wants and likes.

This is why we test loads. Test alloys. Test lubes. We do all these things because we want to learn what works and doesn't work, in general terms. It is his info that allows us to expedite the development process the next time with a new gun or bullet. The problem is that we eventually come up against a gun that just doesn't seem to want to play nice and follow the "rules". That is where the fun starts.

My advice is to work up a load with the bullet of your choice and see what works.

[plainsman456]

I have a Marlin and a Blackhawk in 41 mag and I shoot a cast boolit in both.
I load for the pistol,when a load is found that shoots well i then try that load in the rifle.So far I have not been disappointed.
I haven't shoot them through the screens yet but they both like them,with out leading,no gas checks.
The lead mix is air cooled ww with some 95/5 in the mix.

[beefyz]

Last few posts,,,exactly what i was looking for, some hope of success.
Waco...you're right. But i just wanted to get a head start into this. i'll never be as good at it as you guys. The challenge for me is not to lead out or fail the first few times out. i did that enough workimg up the jacketed loads.
Now the BIG QUESTION. I did not mention this the first time. I do NO intend to cast my own. 6 other calibers and various other duties will prevent me from doing that.
Larry...those bullets you are talking about. Can they be bought ? tehy're lubed already, right? What bullet manufacturers do you recommend?
RUNFIVERUN..... How did you get your data? I sense that alot of this data is trail and error. I have no problem with that, but over on THR its constantly stated that when reloading for a new caliber, you consult a few different manuals and follow publish data. My trouble is i'm trying to do that and the data is contradictory.Let me ask this again.If i used say, the Lyman data, with the PB bullet they're showing, with powder/charge and at that velocity, can i "reasonably"expect to get no leading.
BTROJ..."My advice is to work up a load with the bullet of your choice and see what works."
Right, know how to do that. Work up from where using what quoted from where? Whose data did you start from /
THanks guys and all who care to comment.
Just trying to understand and learn.

[462]

"Even Stephen Hawking had to start with 2+2.

This is supposed to be fun!

Forget all this overthinking.
Load 'em and shoot 'em.

Don't try to solve problems you haven't encountered yet.

Have some fun."

Bully!

[462]

Beefyz,
Buy one of Lyman's Cast Bullet or Reloading Handbooks, and use it as your guide for your load development.

"Let me ask this again.If i used say, the Lyman data, with the PB bullet they're showing, with powder/charge and at that velocity, can i "reasonably"expect to get no leading."

No. It's already been mentioned that there are too many variables. Try a load, if it works you succeeded. If not, you still succeeded by finding one that didn't, and move on to the next one. Eventually, your gun will tell you want it likes.

[Wolfer]

Pick somthing in the middle of the data you have and start from there. I don't think there's
any load that anyone could guarantee you that it wouldn't lead. However if you can stay
away from bevel base bullets your chances will go way up IMO.
If a bevel base fits your gun right it too will probably work.

I see what your saying about all the contradicting info out there but it just goes to show
how complex this can be or how multiple people have arrived at different data. As John Taffin
said ( every gun is a law unto itself ) or something like that.

If it was me I'd pick something in the middle and go have some fun!

[KYCaster]

Let me clarify. I know about slugging the barrel. This is for a .357 rossi '92. I have NOT loaded up any cast yet. i want to do that. No one has answered my question yet. Assuming barrel has been slugged, i have correct bullet size etc and everything else"balanced", Can PB cast be shot at 1,500+ velocities w/o leading and with decent accuracy? If so what is the optimal BHN at these higher velocities. Why are so many people saying so many different things? How can one be shooting at these higher velocities w/o leading while another says you can't go above 1,200 w/PB bullets? Someone has got to be wrong. And then how do i interpret the obvious contradictions between the suppossed "experts" like Lyman, MB, & Leadheads ?



" And then how do i interpret the obvious contradictions between the suppossed "experts" like Lyman, MB, & Leadheads ?"

Since the "experts" disagree, there's obviously more than one way to skin this cat.



"Why are so many people saying so many different things? How can one be shooting at these higher velocities w/o leading while another says you can't go above 1,200 w/PB bullets? Someone has got to be wrong."

Everyone's opinion is based on their experiences....and sometimes their AGENDA. They may be telling you what they believe....or what they believe will sell their product.

Right or wrong? If I see a statement that interests me, I'll check it out for myself and accept it or reject it based on my own experience. I've found some claims to be totally wrong and some to be true in a very specific set of circumstances, but I've found very few of them to be carved in stone.



"Can PB cast be shot at 1,500+ velocities w/o leading and with decent accuracy? If so what is the optimal BHN at these higher velocities."

1500+ with decent accuracy? Sure, no big deal. Lots of guys here do it. I've done it. (not with a Rossi 357.....more about that later)

Optimal BHN? That's a bit harder to answer. It comes down to what ever you can make work. I have a 180 gr RNFP from a Lee group buy mold that I loaded with max charges of W296. Hodgden says 39,100 PSI. It ran 1480 fps out of my Rossi 92. BHN didn't seem to matter.....92-6-2 alloy, ACWW or 3 parts Pb/1 part WW would shoot to the same group. Leading was never a problem and group size was as good as I could do with the iron sights. I have no doubt that I could have used a different powder and gotten more velocity if I had wanted it.

The reason I didn't is (and this doesn't have anything to do with your question) , I don't want to have loads laying around that I can't use in my handguns. With those loads in a S&W 586 it is all I can do to concentrate long enough to shoot a decent 12 shot group. In a single action revolver the recoil can only be described a BRUTAL!

I sold the Rossi because the heavy bullet loads (175, 180, 200) at <1500 fps in the 1:30 twist would leave oval holes in the target. I didn't want to load them hotter because I didn't want to have loads that I couldn't use in the revolvers.

I load lighter boolits (125, 158) to less than 1000 fps so I can visually tell the difference between plinking loads and heavier loads. The lighter boolits at lower velocities would not group well for me out of the Rossi, I assume because of the slow twist. I suppose the 158's would shoot much better at 1200-1300 but I wasn't willing to change my system because of Rossi's poor choice of twist rate.

Anyway, don't spend too much time worrying about differences of opinion....it'll only confuse you more.

Gook luck
Jerry

[1bluehorse]

All good info. One thing not mentioned is the condition of your bore. If the rifle has a rough bore or constrictions at the dovetails it will lead. Plus your accuracy will probably be less than stellar. Firelapping can help with both. Some folks don't believe in firelapping, I do. All the revolvers and rifles I shoot lead bullets in have been firelapped and there was improvement in all..:Fire:

[runfiverun]

when i first started teaching my brother in law about this stuff i made him work through the whole series of powder families.
we started with 700-x, red dot, tightgroup, and clays minimum to maximum 5 each.
we went from there to the medium powders, alcan 5,unique,and herco.
then to the medium slow stuff, blue dot, 800-x,steel,and into 2400.
and finally to h-110, imr 4227,aa-1680,and aa-2230.
for the fun of it we also done some h-322 and h-4894 loads.
what i learned was that my levergun sights [adjustments at distance] most closly matched up to loads that were in the medium slow powders 800-x, herco, and alliants 2400.
why these powders?
my observations were telling me they were burning almost all the way down the bbl.
but were not allowing the boolit to exit while it was under significant pressure from the powder.
i could actually see lube smears in the bbl where the pressure dropped off and the lube cooled down.
i was calling it the relaxation point.
and i could push it down the bbl a bit further by upping the load or switching to a slower powder.
i could make slight changes to the alloy,load, or sizing to offset slight leading or to improve accuracy somewhat.
and that i could make lube.
some bad, some good, and i could adjust that lubes viscosity [the way it flows under heat and pressure] and make a difference to my accuracy.

all that explains where my answers come from in leverguns with what i got going on here.


if you try to push that hard boolit, and it is say 358 or a bit larger, you don't scuff it up loading it.
and the lube don't let you down.
the answer to your question in post #13 is yes.
i have used magmas hard lubes [the ones most commercial casters use] with good results
and it is actually fairly well suited to higher pressure/heat loads.
1500 is doable with a flat based boolit of say 15-18 bhn.
i'd start with 2400 and move to h-110 to get there [if you are gonna shoot it in the winter you will lose some velocity with the h-110]

[Bret4207]

Beefy, first thing to do is forget the stupid formula and the second thing to do is stop listening to the Keyboard Commandos on THR. Over 13-1400 GC's make things exponentially easier. Most of the rest after that is seeking fit and balance.

Follow the Lyman manual data to start with.

[Forrest r]

I believe there is way too much emphasis put on bullet hardness. I’ve gotten in more trouble with leading over the years with hard cast boolits than I ever have with the softer cast boolits.

I’ve found that the harder the boolit is the less forgiving it is for the reloader. Softer boolits obulate better & tend to be more powder friendly.

Work up some test loads & go out and enjoy yourself. You can test all the different theories you’ve read about & come to your own conclusions.

[Reload3006]

Ok my take and its worth about as much as it cost you to read it. As others have already stated. Dont get too hung up on all the variables. Lots of us try to be non-degreed scientists and turn our hobby into a science fair project. Dont do that unless you need to. If you have a gun that keeps turning into a sewer pipe every time you shoot your lead boolits then yes back up and start evaluating things. look at how many 22Lrz are sold each year and you never hear about leading in a 22 but hey guess what they are shooting lead boolits. some are copper plated but most are just plane ole lead. One would think that they would just turn into a solid block of lead that couldnt shoot straight at all but 22s are just about the most accurate out of the box guns manufactured in our lifetimes.

1) dont get hung up in the I have to have the fastest most devastating gun boolit on the planet. You are sure to hurt yourself or someone else and hey if you cant hit what your aiming at with it its not devastating. So slow things down. Crawl Walk then run.

2) dont get too hung up on gas checks If you have a mold that is made for one then use them they aren't necessary per-se but they can cover a multitude of sins.

3) what size? well the least expensive thing to try first is drop your boolits and make a dummy round with one as dropped will it cycle? will it cycle easily in your rifle or in your hand gun, if so try them lubed as cast.

Take a slow and steady approach and have fun doing it. If its not fun there is really no reason to do it at all just go buy some bulk Jwords and load em up or buy cheap bulk ammo.

[44man]

I know is can be hard to interpret all this info, but that is how it is.
I only use all the manuals for the powder charges, never any of that lead use stuff.
I load for accuracy and only fool with alloys to reach that goal.
You are at a disadvantage having to buy boolits so buy good ones, not the big bulk stuff. Go to Cast Precision, Beartooth, etc. Lube might be a little hard but they will shoot.
The variation of BHN that can be shot without leading is very wide, so wide, stop reading about it. Just find the best shooting boolit and leave it at that.
The problem with buying boolits is to find the best for your gun.
Those of us that cast can take a good boolit design and alter how it shoots.
Is it rocket science? Yep! :kidding: Some blew up on the pad, some went crazy so it was trial and error too.
If anyone has never shot cast and did nothing but read, boolits can also go crazy. You have to jump in, not stick a toe in hoping the water is not cold.

[beefyz]

Thanks to all who took the time to respond. You've given me enough hope here now to get me started. i just want to be a shooter , like gary cooper in sgt. york knocking that turkey off @100 yds with powder poured down the barrel from a horn under a cast he just pulled out of his pocket,not a scientist.hahaha. gobble gobble gobble
One last question, 44 MAN referred to Cast precision & Beartooth as having good lead. Any more recommendations like this. Remember , i can't follow your advice without a supply of bullets. I will NOT be casting. I'll have to rely on store bought and i'm assuming these will come lubed properly and ready to shoot.

[Larry Gibson]

beefyz

No those bullets can't be "bought" as such because i cast them myself. You can do the same if you want to or there are several commercial casters that do offer such or similar cast bullets. Sometimes with the smaller commercial casters if you by in quanity (like 2K- 5K) they will make a run of the bullet you want unsized and unlubed so you can do that yourself to the specs you want.

Larry Gibson

[Grandpas50AE]

Like Larry said there are some cast boolit operations that will either custom size or will ship unsized and unlubed on whatever boolit you order from them. I have used PENN (they have a website) , and they are good quality for consistent weight and dimension. I don't have a hardness tester, but they are good quality, and the owner is good to deal with. For the particular application I was using them for (.38 Super) I had them custom sized (a very small fee for doing so) but had to replace their lube with Javelina 50/50 lube.

[mdi]

Like williamwaco said, "don't try to solve problems you haven't encountered yet". I have successfully cast and shot lead bullets for a hair over 9 years, and just started playing with BHN. Actually some of my early books/manuals don't even mention BHN and some just talk a bit about it in passing (and of course no formulas for pressure/velocity). 95% of all my cast bullets were made up of wheel weight alloy and range scrap but, fitting the bullet to the cylinder throats, and using appropriate powders, I rarely see leading in my 5 revolvers (.38/357 and .44 Spec/Mag.), or fitting bullet to groove dia. my overbore Puma .44 Mag. I know it's really easy to get "overly involved" in a new hobby, reading/ researching all posssibe varients, but with casting bullets you can easily overthink the process and take the fun out of it. My suggestion would be to reread gear's first post, especially the first paragraph, and leave it at that. When/if you run into problems later with lead bullet loads, then maybe consider custom alloying your own lead. For now get some wheel weight alloy, melt it up, and cast some bullets. With bullets sized to fit your gun, and with a good lube, you prolly won't have any leading problems...

[geargnasher]

Awww, C'mon! Just get a Lee two cavity mould and small ladle furnace, Lee push-through sizer, Lyman rowell ladle, some 2-stroke oil, q-tips, box o'ingots from one of our vendor/sponsors, some lube from White Label or Randyrat (or make 45/45/10 Recluse lube with the liquid Alox that comes with the Lee sizer), get some silicone baking pans for pan lubing, and quit worrying about buying them, make your own!

You can get started casting for about a hundred bucks (less if you have an old stainless-steel saucepan and heat source) which will buy you about 1,000 commercial boolits that you're stuck with if they don't work. If you cast your own, you can just try different moulds and remelt any rejects or designs that don't work.

Ok, got it out of my system, carry on!

Gear

[runfiverun]

try 'carolina cast bullets' also, jerry is a member here.
that is his handle here.
shoot him a p.m. and tell him i sent you...
i believe he has a couple of different types of the rnfp for the 357.

[jandbn]

Any more recommendations like this. Remember , i can't follow your advice without a supply of bullets. I will NOT be casting. I'll have to rely on store bought and i'm assuming these will come lubed properly and ready to shoot.
Montana Bullet Works (http://www.montanabulletworks.com/357.html) has a fair selection.

[1Shirt]

For what ever it is worth, I have never had any luck with gas check blts w/o checks at much over 1350-1400, regarding both leading and accuracy. I have taked plain base cast, at at least two thousands over groove dia up to and maybe a bit more over 1600. At 1700, I have had leading except for heavy plain base in 45-70. The key in my estimation for plain base blts accuracy is proper dia for the rifle and as close as possible to a perfect base.
1Shirt!:-)

[williamwaco]

Now the BIG QUESTION. I did not mention this the first time. I do NO intend to cast my own.



You can buy almost any bullet you can buy a mold for.

That said, I have had very poor luck with cast handgun bullets. I have had severe leading with most of them.

I learned a simple solution to this problem.

If they lead, tumble them in LLA or Rooster jacket before loading. Lube right over the existing lube. No need to remove it.

See:

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/lla_bullet_lube_2.htm

for an example.

[williamwaco]

"Even Stephen Hawking had to start with 2+2.

This is supposed to be fun!

Forget all this overthinking.
Load 'em and shoot 'em.

Don't try to solve problems you haven't encountered yet.

Have some fun."

Bully!



Don't call me a sissy!

I'll hit you with my purse.


.

[462]

Don't call me a sissy!

I'll hit you with my purse.


.

Williamwaco,

Oh, my goodness, I didn't mean that you were being a bully. I meant bully, as in Teddy Roosevelt.

[44man]

Beefy, I think your questions have been answered.
I also say to make your own when you get the chance.
The worst boolits I tried to shoot were the 500 count bulk boolits with bevel bases that you can buy at distributors.
A few others were too hard and under size plus lube was so hard it broke off into the bottom of the box.

[KYCaster]

Beefy, first thing....don't get discouraged too easily. You've already found that this isn't going to be easy. Kinda like the old saying..."The quarry doesn't make the hunt, nor the goal the game." Getting there is half the fun....you just have to relax and enjoy the ride.

The guys here like to dump on commercial casters....seems like a sport for some, and an obsession for others. The fact is there are hundreds of commercial casters across the country and some of them actually make a decent, usable boolit.

I'm going to ride 44man a bit (I'll be gentle....no spurs! :guntootsmiley:).
"The worst boolits I tried to shoot were the 500 count bulk boolits with bevel bases that you can buy at distributors.
A few others were too hard and under size plus lube was so hard it broke off into the bottom of the box."

44man has often told us he prefers "harder" boolits for his handguns. "Hard" is a relative term and he doesn't actually define what is "harder" and what is "too hard". That's something you have to determine for yourself, and it's down on the list a bit below FIT and lube.

Bevel base vs. flat base has been argued here many times and both sides have tried to give supporting evidence without any clear consensus....the argument continues. My conclusion is,those who most vigorously support FB's think BB's are bad because that's what commercial casters sell. [smilie=1: As long as FIT is right, the BB is a non-issue.

"Crayon lube" is a frequent target for ridicule here....about like Obama bumper stickers. I suppose if it doesn't stick to your fingers and make a mess of your dies and brass, it can't be doing its job. There are several lubes available for sale that will preform as well as and in many cases much better that most of the concoctions some of the guys here mix up. Peruse the Boolit Lube section and you'll soon see that failures out number successes, but most people don't spend much time talking about their failures. Kinda like WD40....what happened to WD1 thru WD39?

OK, I'm done with 44man.....I hope that didn't hurt too much. :wink:

The difficult task is finding a commercial boolit that will FIT, not only FIT your gun, but also FIT your application. It is available, but the only way to find it is to try various offerings till you find one that FITs. Call the casters and ask for samples...some will provide a few for free, others may sell a small quantity or a sample pack.

Talk to them about their product....I know, you already did that.....that's why you're here asking questions. Try again, with a little experience and knowledge it's not hard to tell the hucksters from the hustlers.

Do some research to see what molds are available that might be useful. Magma, Balisticast and Cast Pix mold reference are good places to start. Ask at the Boolit Swap section in Swapping and Selling you'll get plenty of things to try, then go back and talk to the casters about alloys and lube.

Relax and take some time to smell the Hoppe's. It may take a while to get where you want to be, but it can be an enjoyable journey.



Good luck and have fun.
Jerry

[williamwaco]

Williamwaco,

Oh, my goodness, I didn't mean that you were being a bully. I meant bully, as in Teddy Roosevelt.



Well, I guess I was just too "country" to get the British humor.
I didn't really think you were serious, I took it as a good joke and responded in kind.

The Teddy Roosevelt reference is pleasing since my grandfather was one of the "Rough Riders". I still have a dagger he brought back from Cuba.



.

[462]

Williamwaco,
Your grandfather was a true American hero.

Ironically, I just finished reading Teddy's account of the entire episode -- from recruitment to return. Shucks, I missed out going with Lewis and Clark, and the Rough Riders.

[williamwaco]

Williamwaco,
Your grandfather was a true American hero.

Ironically, I just finished reading Teddy's account of the entire episode -- from recruitment to return. Shucks, I missed out going with Lewis and Clark, and the Rough Riders.


Yeah,

Me too. The most exciting things we ever did was go "grabbling" in the Red River. They call it hand fishing today. And about twice a year we would go out to the "haunted" cemetery and wait for midnight.

I do remember one specific fun time at the cemetery, my buddy's 8 year old brother screamed "DID YOU HEAR THAT?"
No what was it?

"IT WAS A DEAD DOG MOANING!"

We laughed outselves sick. He never went with us again.

We look pretty puny when compared to our ancestors.




.

[44man]

Jerry, yes you can ride me a little. [smilie=s:
I do like harder but a better word would be "tough." I want the boolit to stop skidding before the base band is reached.
Most of my boolits are just water dropped WW metal and it can vary between 18 to 22 BHN but I hate BHN readings and prefer alloy content.
I hate a bevel base, no need for them. I have removed the things from molds and increased accuracy by 2/3's.
I do not believe in expanding a boolit in any way, shape or form to fit. Do the fit first.
My premise is that if you get super accuracy from the "J" word stuff, why would you try to equal it with the wrong alloy? Your cast must act the same way.
It is true with testing I finally got a Keith to group by taking lead to 28 and 30 BHN with the addition of antimony and tin to WW metal to stop the little shoulder from being wiped off in the cone. Slump and skid stopped too.
Yet some of the store bought boolits were nothing but 10 yard shooters but good ones would do 1" at 100 yards.
Read the article about the one minute revolver. It is funny and they spent a fortune making the gun. They did not shoot cast either if I remember, I have to find it again. Yet I get cast to better that with out of box Ruger's and BFR's.
Cast is great and most guns are great but don't try over and over with loads that don't work. I really do take 1-1/2" targets off the rail at 100 yards from a rest. Plain old WW metal! I can't see smaller targets.
But I have shot shotgun shells in the bases at 50 yards. A base is 7/8" and I do it with a .500 JRH.