One World Measuring System

[clodhopper]

Back in the late 1970 the US government tried to get its citizens on the metric system.
It seems like the program was a total failure.
Except for the auto makers, snooty outdoor stores that do not stock firearms, and ivory tower scientists.
We have managed to keep our inches, pounds, and gallons.
Two years ago I built a set of ingot moulds, the metric system was not even on the horizion.
I purchased a 20' stick of 1 1/2" angle iron, measured the width of a medium flat rate box, subtracted 1" for two peices of 1/2" osb sides and merriely cut the iron to 7 1/2".
Since then I have been tring to get a handle on average ingot weight from these moulds.
Today while weighing 250 pounds of ingots I came to the realization that my ingots average weight is 1 kilo.
35 years of brainwashing finally something had to pop.
I feel defeated buy a sucker punch!
Guess I need to go watch the scoccer game and ignore the Giants and Patroits.

[runfiverun]

mark.
i hope some of those ingots are coming this way soon....
wait did you say kilo.
:lol:

[SciFiJim]

Today while weighing 250 pounds of ingots I came to the realization that my ingots average weight is 1 kilo

Just mark them as 35oz and you are good!

[Blacksmith]

The liquor industry jumped on the metric system because all the bottle sizes except one got smaller but the price stayed the same.

[jsizemore]

It's a left wing conspiracy.

[blackthorn]

The **&&%$$#@@$# liberals forced the metric system down our throats years ago. Cost us a fortune to retool and we needed to have both types of tools because there was/is so much stuff around that needs them! Our problems in this regard are compounded by the fact that the U.S. was smart enough not to fall for that c#^* and stayed with the old system. Good for you guys I hope you never have to go through what we did. I fully agree with the previous poster that a lot of it had to do with selling us less for more!

[Duckiller]

In California plans for new roads in in metric dimensions, Maybe that is why it takes so long to complete road construction. Hopefully the roads will last longer. Remember the metric system is French. A remnant of the French revolution.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Nearly fifty years ago I worked for a trucking company. We had an already half loaded semi flatbed that we needed to fill up the rest of the way. The noseload was a huge crate with the weight marked in kilos. As the only handloader in the crew, well-read in ballistic tables foreign and domestic, I was able to tell the foreman to use 2 1/4 pounds per kilo. That was close enough to insure a profitable, but not excessive, load on that trailer.

Believe I once read somewhere that the U.S. adopted the metric system in 1886, and there is still a standard meter and a standard kilo in the Bureau of Standards. Just one more clue that free citizens often consider government edicts to be ignorable suggestions. Omamba please copy!

[starmac]

For years I refused to buy any metric tools, that kept me from working on foreign cars and life was good.
The first car that I found metric bolts on, was I believe an 81 ford, two of the bolts on the water pump were metric. Eventually all american cars and trucks (including semi's and heavy equipment ) went to partially metric and standard bolts, forcing us to buy metric tools. GROAN.

[mroliver77]

For years I refused to buy any metric tools, that kept me from working on foreign cars and life was good.
The first car that I found metric bolts on, was I believe an 81 ford, two of the bolts on the water pump were metric. Eventually all american cars and trucks (including semi's and heavy equipment ) went to partially metric and standard bolts, forcing us to buy metric tools. GROAN.
And it is such a pain trying to figure out what is what. Then some socket and wrench sets omit 15 and or 17mm! grrr!
I had to invest a lot more $$ in tools to work on "American made" vehicles!

[fatnhappy]

I far prefer the metric system.

[Longwood]

I far prefer the metric system.

Soooo simple compared to our rediculous system.
When I hear people ranting about the metric system, I ask them two questions.
How many thousandths of an inch are in 13/16 of an inch?
How many square feet are there in an acre?
When they give me that "I don't have the slightest idea" look, I then say, "See"?.

[frankenfab]

I remember in grade shcool when we studied the metric system, and they told us the US would be transitioning to it. That was 35 years ago.

The neatest thing about the metric system to me, is that it is really easy to figure the drill size for taps. The drill size is the thread OD minus the pitch. An 8mm X 1.0 tap uses a 7mm drill.

A tool & die chap from bloody old England taught me that.

[Mumblypeg]

Your money is already on the metric system. There are not 12 pennies in a dime...

[DCM]

I far prefer the metric system.

+1
My real job and my hobbies both force me to use both metric and "English" measurements for length, mass, volume etc., working in multiples of ten is MUCH EASIER than 12 of this=, 16 of that=, 5,280 of this=, 2,000 of that=, 437.5 of this= :veryconfu !!! Then I need to convert things from one system to the other and it gets worse! Also all of the measurements for temperature, volume, mass correlate based on water a VERY common compound, now why would someone go and do that?:D


IMO since I have to use both It seems so much easier to use metric.
Now how many joules=1BTU? 8mm=?",9.35=?"

[SciFiJim]

Now how many joules=1BTU? 8mm=?",9.35=?"

Oh, Oh, I know the answer to 8mm=? The answer is you have to slug your bore first. Mine measures at .3245 in.:Luvcastboolits:

[starmac]

My problem with the metric is it is big time dangerous.
When you are driving on ice covered roads through the mountains in bc and come up on a curve sign with a speed limit marked 60, if you aren't thinking and look down and you are only running 50, you think no big deal. It can get to be a big deal in a hurry. lol

[fatelk]

On the practical side, the metric system really is so much easier, but our old Imperial System is pretty ingrained here. I'll take my pounds, gallons, feet, and miles, thank you; but when doing scientific calculations I can appreciate milligrams and centimeters.

[303Guy]

I had to tool the other way around. But metric is not all that smart. Some twit went and complicated a simple system by inventing two standards! German Din and the rest of the metric world, SI. Still, that only affects bolt head sizes making it near impossible to get the right spanner. Din uses 13, 17 and 19. A very good size but the SI uses 12, 14,16 and 18. Gone are the days when one glanced at the job, grabbed a handfull of spanners and headed out. Now one needs the whole damn toolbox!

Anyway, at least in metric (SI actually) hight, depth, depth again, length, breadth and distance are all in the same unit. Big or small. Exept boolits and powders which are measured in grains. It is easier to say. Try this; 36grs versus 2.33 grams. :wink:

[Longwood]

What happened to the half quart that went missing from a half gallon of Icecream.
I don't think that can be blamed on the metric system since they don't compare them on the lable.
I miss the gallons of ice cream too.

[ElDorado]

As an American machinist, my head is so wrapped up in the standard system that I can tell you how many thousandths in 13/16 of an inch, and I can tell which drill to use for your tap. I can even tell you the size and pitch of a thread by looking at it, up to an inch or so. The standard system really isn't that difficult if you use it, and unless you use the metric system a lot, it really seems kind of, well, foreign.

I get a kick out of my country-bred mother's simplistic attitude toward the metric system- "I don't see how 454 grams is easier to remember than one pound". Bless her heart, that's an actual quote.

But I will ask the metric proponents this: if the metric system so easy, why doesn't somebody push for decimal time and calendars? How many metric days are in a metric year?

[canyon-ghost]

Oh, Oh, I know the answer to 8mm=? The answer is you have to slug your bore first. Mine measures at .3245


8x4=32 so 8mm is 32 caliber

9x4 is 36 so 9mm is 36 caliber

they all have an approximate in caliber.

[Houndog]

Heck,youall are worried about 2 standards! When I worked for a local motorcycle dealer while in high School we had 4 "standards" to contend with! We had Harley, (American Standard) Ducati, Zundap, BMW, and Moto Guzzi, (Metric) Triumph and BSA, (British Standard) and Norton, Matchless and AJS (Whitworth standard, if I remember correctly)! Four brothers officially owned separate dealerships,( located in the SAME building) but had one service department for all the brands. The REAL pisser was some had left hand shifters, some had right hand shifters, and some of the old Harleys had hand shifters! It was hard to keep em all straight! A "test ride" could get REAL intresting if you werent paying attention!

[Blacksmith]

If you want to get confused try to explain to an inventory auditor that sheet metal gage size depends on the type metal you are measuring. For example 16 gage Brass and 16 gage Steel are not the same thickness and no we are not cheating on the inventory.
http://www.custompartnet.com/sheet-metal-gauge

[perotter]

Soooo simple compared to our rediculous system.
When I hear people ranting about the metric system, I ask them two questions.
How many thousandths of an inch are in 13/16 of an inch?
How many square feet are there in an acre?
When they give me that "I don't have the slightest idea" look, I then say, "See"?.

And I'd ask you:

How many hectares are there in a quarter section?
How many kilometers is it across a 40?

[fatnhappy]

How many thousandths of an inch are in 13/16 of an inch?


Most people fail to recognize that 13/16 of an inch is simply a mathematical operation, all you need to do is complete it.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

ya know, If God wanted us to use the metric system,
Jesus would have had 10 disciples, not 12
:bigsmyl2:

[462]

We should have made the rest of the world adopt our systems of measurement.

I really get frustrated when something is measured in 10ths of an inch -- i.e. 5 and 3/10ths inches. The idiot who started that needs to be flogged . . . severely.

I owned two MG Midgets, all the hardware was inch except the crank pulley/harmonic balancer, which was Whitowrth. I think a 1 1/8"socket worked, though.

[9.3X62AL]

ya know, If God wanted us to use the metric system,
Jesus would have had 10 disciples, not 12
:bigsmyl2:

Awright, then!

[Norbrat]

ya know, If God wanted us to use the metric system,
Jesus would have had 10 disciples, not 12
:bigsmyl2:

But if'n God wanted us to use Imperial, he would've given us 12 digits!

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

But if'n God wanted us to use Imperial, he would've given us 12 digits!

That's why thumbs are called "opposable"
:kidding:

[Blacksmith]

The sockets may be metric but the drive on the socket wrench is still inch. 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 3/4", and 1" drive.

[dromia]

Imperial good Metric bad.

Analogue good Digital bad.

[geargnasher]

The sockets may be metric but the drive on the socket wrench is still inch. 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 3/4", and 1" drive.

I'll add "By God!" to that. I'd only have to have $20,000 in hand tools if we still made things here and let the Europeans and Japs keep their ideas oceans away where it belongs. And if I ever get my hands on the moron that invented Torx Plus (as if Torx wasn't bad enough!), I will enjoy my five minutes alone out back with them :evil:

Gear

[Reload3006]

I have had the pleasure if working in the Aerospace industry for the last 30 years and have needed to use both metric and imperial measuring systems. When I started out every thing was in Inch... so all my tools are inch. so multiply metric dimension by .03937 and you have decimal inch. Ta Da!!!!!!!!!!!! It was funny I suppose we were making the AV8-B the F15 F/A-18, C-17 in inch and the T-45 in Metric .... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[Longwood]

As an American machinist, my head is so wrapped up in the standard system that I can tell you how many thousandths in 13/16 of an inch, and I can tell which drill to use for your tap. I can even tell you the size and pitch of a thread by looking at it, up to an inch or so. The standard system really isn't that difficult if you use it, and unless you use the metric system a lot, it really seems kind of, well, foreign.

I get a kick out of my country-bred mother's simplistic attitude toward the metric system- "I don't see how 454 grams is easier to remember than one pound". Bless her heart, that's an actual quote.

But I will ask the metric proponents this: if the metric system so easy, why doesn't somebody push for decimal time and calendars? How many metric days are in a metric year?

I am a havazzed machinest myself and if I can't recall what 13/16" is in thousanths but I can guarantee that a very small percentage of Americans and member know what it is.
Even after over 50 years of working with our system, I, quite often, have to start at more common measurement such as 3/4" or 7/8" and do the math to come up with the answer myself.
Being a machinest you surely can see the benifit of an 8MM tap, needs a 7mm drill.
Wow, what would I do with all of the extra wall space if I could tear down the conversion charts?
If people use our systems every day they get to know "THAT" area in our system but none of others.
The nice thing with the metric system is, even children can know and remember, each part of it simply because it is so very simple, compared to our mess.
454 would only mean 454 parts of 1000, not a pound, so it would never be an issue.
It is a very simple system to use and work with, if people would quit trying to convert it to our system.

As far as the calendar and time thing, I agree that, that, could be much improved also.

[montana_charlie]

Soooo simple compared to our rediculous system.
When I hear people ranting about the metric system, I ask them two questions.
How many thousandths of an inch are in 13/16 of an inch?
How many square feet are there in an acre?
When they give me that "I don't have the slightest idea" look, I then say, "See"?.
I could ask you how many meters it is across Georgia, and you would get the same look on your face. It would also appear if I asked which Bosch sparkplug replaces the Champion N57R.

If people don't need information, they don't keep it handy.

I happen to know how many square feet exist in an acre, but the land I live on was surveyed in acres, purchased in acres, and is irrigated in acre-feet of water. I also know how many acres will be covered by a 33-foot sprayer if it travels a quarter mile.

The fact that these numbers are remembered has nothing to do with the ease, or difficulty, of the numbering system.
If somebody devised a metric alphabet, I doubt that the improved 'simplicity' would make any of our members better at spelling.

CM

[mroliver77]

I'll add "By God!" to that. I'd only have to have $20,000 in hand tools if we still made things here and let the Europeans and Japs keep their ideas oceans away where it belongs. And if I ever get my hands on the moron that invented Torx Plus (as if Torx wasn't bad enough!), I will enjoy my five minutes alone out back with them :evil:

Gear
Amen to that brother!

[starmac]

Now I have to ask is torx plus the same thing as tamper proof torx.

[Beerd]

The metric system is based on muliples of 10.
One acre is equal to ten square chains.
So an acre is metric, isn't it?
:kidding:
..

[Ickisrulz]

Now I have to ask is torx plus the same thing as tamper proof torx.

Tamper proof Torx has a hole in the middle of the bits that fit into a protrusion on the bolts.

[geargnasher]

One more thing: Is it just me, or has anyone else been plagued with the issue that NOTHING in real life is a centimeter long? Lots of things are "an inch", or "about a foot", but what's "a centimeter?"

I was pondering those little arrow marks on a tape measure one day, and discovered that all the carpenter's tapes I had used those marks. They don't line up with anything until you get to something like 11 of them, then it coincides with 16'6", which happens to be a rod. I figured they must be cubit marks on the tape, since they're somewhere around 18-19" (now I have to go grab a tape and look!). I'd hate to have to build a house with cubits for a unit of measure!

I had a good laugh when I picked up a Lufkin 100-foot surveyor's tape at a garage sale and discovered the feet are subdivided into tenths instead of inches, what a flusterkluck!

Gear

[geargnasher]

Now I have to ask is torx plus the same thing as tamper proof torx.

NOPE, not the same thing. Torx Plus is the same as Torx except the splines are sharp instead of rounded, and they are in-between sizes so they are impossible to interchange. As was mentioned, tamper-resistant Torx has the hole in the middle of the bit, and a teat in the middle of the fastener.

Gear

[Longwood]

I could ask you how many meters it is across Georgia, and you would get the same look on your face.
------------------

Not if we had always used meters, not trying to convert it from miles.

------------------

It would also appear if I asked which Bosch sparkplug replaces the Champion N57R.

------------------

That is why Bosch gave us the free book.
Aren't the threads on plugs 16mm metric? I can't remember for sure.

------------------

If people don't need information, they don't keep it handy.


------------------

True.
But.
If we used the metric system it would all be in our heads because of how simple it is We would not need charts, books like a machinest's bible or a computer to look it up.

-----------------

I happen to know how many square feet exist in an acre, but the land I live on was surveyed in acres, purchased in acres, and is irrigated in acre-feet of water. I also know how many acres will be covered by a 33-foot sprayer if it travels a quarter mile.

The fact that these numbers are remembered has nothing to do with the ease, or difficulty, of the numbering system.


-----------------

You probably know them so well because you have, or do, use them a lot.
Ask most people here or their children and the charts would come out.
Not the case if we used the metric system instead of the goofy system we now With the Metric system, even if we never used the info we could still figure it out in our heads without the need for a conversion chart.

-----------------

If somebody devised a metric alphabet, I doubt that the improved 'simplicity' would make any of our members better at spelling.

CM


My remarks are between yours

[Longwood]

One more thing: Is it just me, or has anyone else been plagued with the issue that NOTHING in real life is a centimeter long? Lots of things are "an inch", or "about a foot", but what's "a centimeter?"

I was pondering those little arrow marks on a tape measure one day, and discovered that all the carpenter's tapes I had used those marks. They don't line up with anything until you get to something like 11 of them, then it coincides with 16'6", which happens to be a rod. I figured they must be cubit marks on the tape, since they're somewhere around 18-19" (now I have to go grab a tape and look!). I'd hate to have to build a house with cubits for a unit of measure!

I had a good laugh when I picked up a Lufkin 100-foot surveyor's tape at a garage sale and discovered the feet are subdivided into tenths instead of inches, what a flusterkluck!

Gear

If we had changed our system we we said we did that would not be the case at all.

Some of the marks on tapes is for stud spacing. Some of them, are a good example of how screwy our system is.

If you don't get along with tenths, don't apply for a job in the aerospace industry.
They use thousanths, hundredths, tenths but from there it is back to the nonsense.
Do you see any thing familiar there?
Think metric.

Do you know how to tell someone their age with a tape measure?

[Beerd]

I had a good laugh when I picked up a Lufkin 100-foot surveyor's tape at a garage sale and discovered the feet are subdivided into tenths instead of inches, what a flusterkluck!

Gear

Try adding 87 feet 4-5/8 inches plus 104 feet 11-3/4 inches plus 22 feet 1/2 inch.

Now add 87.38 feet + 104.98 feet + 22.04 feet.
..

[Springfield]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but using a 7mm drill for a 8mm tap may not work if you use different materials? Or is it the same for steel , brass an aluminum. I think not, but I could be mistaken. I use our system for carpentry and such, and cooking, but prefer metric when working on vehicles because most of my mechanic work has been with japanese and german motorcycles. It all depends opn what you are used to. I can add eighths, quarters and halves together, just get a common denominator, but metric is a bit easier for stuff like that.

[Hamish]

One more thing: Is it just me, or has anyone else been plagued with the issue that NOTHING in real life is a centimeter long? Lots of things are "an inch", or "about a foot", but what's "a centimeter?"

I was pondering those little arrow marks on a tape measure one day, and discovered that all the carpenter's tapes I had used those marks. They don't line up with anything until you get to something like 11 of them, then it coincides with 16'6", which happens to be a rod. I figured they must be cubit marks on the tape, since they're somewhere around 18-19" (now I have to go grab a tape and look!). I'd hate to have to build a house with cubits for a unit of measure!

I had a good laugh when I picked up a Lufkin 100-foot surveyor's tape at a garage sale and discovered the feet are subdivided into tenths instead of inches, what a flusterkluck!

Gear

Some of the marks are for laying out walls with wood. Some of the marks are for metal studs. Surveyors have there own deal too.

Framing a house has a fairly simple language once you get past trying to think about it so hard. You machinists have your own language too, I'll bet.

[Harter66]

I'm glad someone threw in Witworth. True imperial has 5 qts per gallon the foot changed w every monarchy too. I still see pints of icecream too. Booze is confusing 1/2pint,pint,5th,750,litre,1.5,gallon. Then add the brewerys thaserve english pints that are 1/8 of a 5qt gallon. When you ask how far it is across Ga did you specify ? Km,statute miles,nautical miles,or leagues. Don't even start with that horsing around who's bright idea was a hand? Then there's CUP,LUP,psi,kpa,bar. Ftlbs,inch lbs,newton meters and kilos per metre2. Just metrics mmg,mg,gm,milli,centi,deci,deca,kilo. And to top it off nobobdy seems to agree on spellings .

And an 8mm is 7.92 which is some times bore and sometimes groove as the pre-WWI bore is often nominaly .318 and post war .323 nominaly,w/individual pieces .317-327 , designated as I/J or JA . I/J because I and J look so similar in the old script and they were marked for Infantry .

[geargnasher]

Longwood, I worked as a special builds engineer for Boeing for two years, and part of the job involved QC work on parts that were ordered in. We had just become ISO 9000 compliant at the time, which made it even more fun. I became very fluent in both systems in short order. Yes, it was a pain.

Hamish, I see three sets of marks on any carpenter's tape: 16" centers, 24" centers, and the cubit marks. Not sure what metal studs are supposed to be.

Gear

[Recluse]

Most people fail to recognize that 13/16 of an inch is simply a mathematical operation, all you need to do is complete it.

"simply" and "mathematical operation" don't even deserve to be in the same sentence, paragraph or even dictionary together.

If math is simple, then Obama is a purified conservative capitalist.

Fractions were the cause of many a time of frustration and angst for me all through school. Come to think of it, they still are.


I'll add "By God!" to that. I'd only have to have $20,000 in hand tools if we still made things here and let the Europeans and Japs keep their ideas oceans away where it belongs. And if I ever get my hands on the moron that invented Torx Plus (as if Torx wasn't bad enough!), I will enjoy my five minutes alone out back with them :evil:

Gear

Torx tips? Whoever invented them should have their butts battered in honey butter and dipped in a fire ant mound.

:coffee:

[bruce drake]

Try adding 87 feet 4-5/8 inches plus 104 feet 11-3/4 inches plus 22 feet 1/2 inch.

Now add 87.38 feet + 104.98 feet + 22.04 feet.
..

That's why I was taught how to convert fractions a long time ago. Currently going through the same cycle with my 9 year old in his math class as well.

5/8 = 10/16"
3/4 = 12/16"
1/2 = 8/16"
=30/16" or 1-14/16" or 1-7/8"

4"
11"
0"
= 15"

87'
104'
22'
= 213'

213' + 15" + 1-7/8" = 214' 4-7/8"

All done in the head in less than 2 minutes and I'm using the "Old Math" method as my sons tell me.

backwards proofing to proof the old Metric System
87.38
104.98
22.04
=214.40 or 214ft, 4.825 inches (which is the decimal equivalent to 4-7/8" if you remember your old machinist tables)

Bruce

[starmac]

NOPE, not the same thing. Torx Plus is the same as Torx except the splines are sharp instead of rounded, and they are in-between sizes so they are impossible to interchange. As was mentioned, tamper-resistant Torx has the hole in the middle of the bit, and a teat in the middle of the fastener.

Gear

Well I haven't run across the torx plus YET, but I'm sure I will have to get some sooner than later, which gripes me to no end, as I already have both of the others and think they are a poor excuse for a fastener in a lot of the applications, like ujoints. GRRRR

[bruce drake]

Recluse,

I hardly doubt the Fed uses the proper Mathematical Laws that we go buy. We live within a budget. I haven't seen an approved Federal Budget in over 1000 days...

Bruce

[303Guy]

Pozidrive tips came about from a manufacturing expediency. The fasteners stay on the tips during assembly. Square drives are another pain. Sure they work but the quality of the tip needs to be superb for them to work properly. But Pozidrive do work and are an improvement on Pillips drives.

The 'metric system' isn't actually in official use. The 'SI' system of measures is. It doesn't use cm or dm or hactares or bars or grams or litres. And the time measure is the second. No minutes or hours (or days). Too bad the second doesn't fit into the day in a 'metric' fashion. Subdivition of the SI is in thousands or thousanths. The base unit of mass is the kilogram - now that's a pain!

[Larry Gibson]

Don't cha just hate it when the American Standard cresent wrench gets mixed up with the metric cresent wrench......just takes me forever to sort out which is which............;)

Larry Gibson

[Chicken Thief]

Here's to ya'll:

http://wscope.com/convert.htm

A truly good and usefull tool!

[Longwood]

Don't cha just hate it when the American Standard cresent wrench gets mixed up with the metric cresent wrench......just takes me forever to sort out which is which............;)

Larry Gibson

Larry
The ones for lefty loosy are the ones I can never get right in my head.[smilie=b:

[dagger dog]

The automotive industry in Europe usually sticks with the German DIN system, even the Italians, along with the Swedes. The USA TRYS HARD to conform but the bottom line here is the dollar.

An example: the bolts holding the coolant pump body to the timing case cover on a mid 90's Buick are 6 MM dia. X 1.00MM thread pitc0h along with a couple 8 MM dia. X 1.25 MM thread pitch, but the bolts holding the coolant pump pulley to the pump are 1/4" dia X 20 thread pitch. The bolt head size on the 6mm bolts are 10 MM, the bolt head size on the 1/4" are 3/8".

Only thing I can figure out with this kind of assembly practice, is they must have had a bunch of left over 1/4" bolts.

The Asians are on meteric but the stick with different bolt head sizes than the Europeans.

It's enough to drop this kind of stuff on the backyard mechanic trying to keep his own cars running, let alone the working mechanic!

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Here in Arequipa everything is in metric until you buy petrolium products.. Gasoline by the gallons. Motor oil by the quart. Antifreeze in gallon jugs.
Mike in Peru (till June)

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=geargnasher;1578742)

Hamish, I see three sets of marks on any carpenter's tape: 16" centers, 24" centers, and the cubit marks. Not sure what metal studs are supposed to be.

Gear[/QUOTE]

A company I worked for had an engineer that used feet and inches on his prints.
I made a mistake that took me and another welder two days to fix.
Both of the previous places I had worked used inches only.
I was holding the Carpenter tape they gave me in my left hand, doing layout. Because of that, the numbers were inverted.
I went to the little arrow and counted over 4".
Oooops,,,,, the new tape had red arrows at the stud marks instead of the foot marks.
Had he written it as 16" everything would have been cool.

[Reload3006]

a men for the 1/4-20 bolts good ole number 7 tap drill and your in business for a 75% unc thread now we are talking in terms I can relate to. LOL

[Mk42gunner]

Well since we got into torx and other screwy fastener heads, what about the reverse torx type, I think the name starts with E.

Chrysler in their infinite wisdom used two at the top of the bellhousing on 4.0L Cherokees and Comanches. There aren't many things funner than trying to get an inaccessable bolt out with the wrong tools in the middle of the night.

The only sockets I could find (later) were that cheap blister packed three for $5.99 at autozone. These things made Buffalo tools (remember those) look good.

Robert

The new marks at the funky distances on steel tapes are for engineered joists.

[starmac]

One of my favorite was the ONE torx head bolt on the intake plenum where you can't se it on the 302 ford. Another favorite was a regular bolt, an extra transmission bolt that chevy put on top of their 3 spd trannies. lol

[Blacksmith]

To get back to casting.
Have you run across a Pattern Makers Shrink Rule? Don't ever pick one up by mistake.


Molten metal will shrink as it cools. To allow for this, patterns are made slightly over sized. A pattern that is 12 1/8" long will produce a 12" long part when cast in iron. Shrink rules are elongated rulers that take shrinkage into account. (A one foot shrink rule with 1/8" shrink per foot looks like an ordinary ruler. It is actually 12 1/8" long.) By using a shrink rule to measure parts for a pattern, the pattern maker does not have to scale up the dimensions of the desired casting.
Each metal has its own shrinkage rate:
Metal Shrinkage
Britannia* 1/32" per foot
Tin 1/12" per foot
Iron 1/8" per foot
Bismuth 5/32" per foot
Brass 3/16" per foot
Aluminum 3/16" per foot
Copper 3/16" per foot
Steel 1/4" per foot
Lead 5/16" per foot
Zinc 5/16" per foot
* Lead free form of pewter
From Stanley Folding Rules A History and Descriptive Inventory by Alvin Sellen's

Now If I could only find a conversion factor to convert Furlongs per Fortnight to Meters per Month I would be set.

[76 WARLOCK]

Why are all the countries that are on the metric system dependant on us for their defense, space programs, and financing.

[Harter66]

Lycoming cylinder base nuts . 1st they are a 12 point socket w/threads instead of a square drive . Then you have a wrench shaped like a distribtor wrench about 14" long w/ an allen drive. You get about 1/8" to slip the driver between the top of the nut and the 1st cylinder cooling fin after 3-4 threads a maximum of about 200* at a time you have to remove the wrench and move to the next nut . There's 8 per cylinder and always 1 w/a dinged thread or rust,and just room enough that no less than 4 have to be half way off to get the other 4 off. Add exhaust studs niehboring cylinders,air baffles,prop govorners and sometimes fixed cowlings.

[nicholst55]

For years I refused to buy any metric tools, that kept me from working on foreign cars and life was good.
The first car that I found metric bolts on, was I believe an 81 ford, two of the bolts on the water pump were metric. Eventually all american cars and trucks (including semi's and heavy equipment ) went to partially metric and standard bolts, forcing us to buy metric tools. GROAN.

I used to catch a lot of flack about that when I worked for MATCO Tools. Seems like a lot of mechanics were convinced that the whole metric thing was a conspiracy between the fastener manufacturers, the auto makers, and the tool companies. They might even be right, but like I always explained, that stuff was way, way above my pay grade!

And then there was the Torx head bolt, followed by the tamper-proof Torx, etc, etc. :?

[geargnasher]

Well since we got into torx and other screwy fastener heads, what about the reverse torx type, I think the name starts with E.

Chrysler in their infinite wisdom used two at the top of the bellhousing on 4.0L Cherokees and Comanches. There aren't many things funner than trying to get an inaccessable bolt out with the wrong tools in the middle of the night.

The only sockets I could find (later) were that cheap blister packed three for $5.99 at autozone. These things made Buffalo tools (remember those) look good.

Robert

The new marks at the funky distances on steel tapes are for engineered joists.

And Wranglers, and Grand Cherokees, anything with a 4.0L. I have yet to be clear on what those goofy things are called. GM got happy with one particular size of it for engine accessory bracket studs and steering column tilt base bolts. I hear them called "Inverted Torx" or "E-Torx" sometimes. It was a few years before the tool peddlers had an integrated impact wobble socket for the Chrysler upper bellhousing bolts, until then you had to use a universal impact wobble (3/8 drive), a 3/8x1/2 adapter, and long 1/2 extension for the impact wrench. Torquing them during installation with the same setup minus the impact was a royal pain, who knows what the actual torque was at the threads. I just added 10 lbs to the spec and made it click. Don't ask me how many N.m that is, I have enough conversion formulas rolling around in my head as it is!

The Torx screws holding the front driveshaft in on some of the Jeeps and Ram trucks is, I agree, a pinnacle of engineering stupidity, especially since there is physically no way to get even a super-long Torx bit on them straight due to the yoke.

Dontcha just love living in a world made by "C" students?

Gear

[Southern Son]

From a great American Thinker:

"The metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead and that's just the way I likes it!"

[SquirrelHollow]

And it is such a pain trying to figure out what is what. Then some socket and wrench sets omit 15 and or 17mm! grrr!
I had to invest a lot more $$ in tools to work on "American made" vehicles!

A few years ago, I had to replace the shocks on my '82 Olds Toronado (incredible feat of automotive engineering, I might add). Sadly, the bolts were 15mm, and the nuts were 17mm. After blowing up my standard 1/2" drive 15mm socket, I decided I needed impact sockets.

So, I drove 45 minutes to the closest store that carried any. I grabbed the set that looked the best, double checked the contents, "10mm-19mm". Awesome. Good to go.

I drove 45 minutes home, jacked the car up, pulled the wheels, and let the brakes cool (I had to do a brake job at the same time).

I came back at about 6:30 pm, opened the case of impact sockets, and....
What the...?
Hey...?
Who stole the...?
Why is the...?
Where did...?
You... .

The store was closed.
My new set of impact sockets had no 15mm or 17mm sockets.
I wasn't going to be able to work on that car again, for about a week.

My brother, in the next town, came over to see what all the yelling was about... [smilie=b:



For the record, I like Torx and square-drive fasteners. ;)
The metric system has its place, but that place is not in my car, refrigerator, pantry, utility meters, or garage.

Want another fun fastener to remove or install? The 9 o'clock tranny bolt on GM series II and III 3.8L V6s with an automatic. Seriously? No normal man has 17 feet of extensions in his tool box, or knows to cut a hole in the inner fender well to remove a bolt on the opposite side of the car. And, who is to say whether you'll run into a metric bolt or an SAE bolt... It's [I]supposed to be metric, but there's no guarantee.

[Sasquatch-1]

Believe I once read somewhere that the U.S. adopted the metric system in 1886, and there is still a standard meter and a standard kilo in the Bureau of Standards. Just one more clue that free citizens often consider government edicts to be ignorable suggestions. Omamba please copy!

My wife works for the National Institute of Standars and Technology in Gaithersburg, MD. When she first went to work for the she worked in the Metric division which had 5 people. She now works in the general Weights and Measure section and the Metric section has 1 person. This shows how concerned our govermant is in becoming Canadian.

Also, the metric system was mandated by Lincoln when he was in office.

[theperfessor]

Just remember that 1 inch = 25.4mm and 2.2 pounds is close to 1 kilogram and it will take a lot of angst out of your life. Any measurement system is arbitrary anyway, it's just what you get used to. I find it a lot easier to scale things up and down in the SI system where a prefixes to base units are multiples of ten larger or smaller.

None of this tenths of a foot vs inches vs feet and inches vs fractions or decimal parts of an inch on blueprints and plans. And a mass based vs weight/force based system is much easier for many calculations.

The "system" is different than the "preferred sizes" selected for components within that system. Can't argue with mechanics, etc that have to have tools in all sorts of sizes but honestly I have absolutely no problem going from one system to the other when making parts. Even my mill/lathe readouts will convert from inches to mm with the press of one button.

So tell me, how many rods in a furlong, how many feet in a chain, etc.? And is an ounce a weight measure or a volume measure? And is a pound a weight/force unit or a mass unit? There is so many traditional garbage units in the English system nobody can convert all the units within it because there is no common denominator between them and many units have ambiguous meanings.

Some time I'll explain why the traditional inch system uses both fractional as well as decimal values. None of that rot in the SI system.

[MT Gianni]

Life was certainly a lot simpler under the Wyoming measurement system. "How far is it from Laramie to Sheridan". The answer "that will take you 7 beers". We are a different world since the 70's.

[theperfessor]

Maybe we need a beer standard system? When I smoked I had the cigarette time standard system. How long to drive to work? One Pall Mall! To the range? Three Pall Malls.

[Reload3006]

measuring systems are like languages. I learned to speak English naturally. I learned the Inch system because that was the standard system. I know what an inch represents because I am the most familiar with that Language. I can learn what Spanish Russian Arabic French etc mean but I have to think about the definition. Same with The system of measurement Its nothing more than expression of Ideas. Most of us grew up speaking English. But we live in a larger world now than we used to so I suppose we need to learn to communicate in the Metric system too. And I do but for it to have meaning for me I have to convert it to Inch.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm not real bothered by the metric vs. Imperial measuring systems. Of course, I'm used to Spanish being spoken for as long as I can remember, too.

Gianni has come up with the most sensible--if perhaps not the most politically-correct--system of distance measure I've read in this thread. The California equivalent would be "2 lattes and a Perrier" from Malibu to South Coast Plaza.

[Adam10mm]

Fractions were the cause of many a time of frustration and angst for me all through school. Come to think of it, they still are.

Yep, 5 out of 4 people have a problem with fractions. I'm one of those 9.


I use metric and Imperial with different things. On my Honda, I use all metric. My Blazer uses both. My other hobby is homebrewing beer. I measure hops in grams, water in gallons and quarts, and grain in both pounds and kilos, depending on the source. North American barley is sold in 50lb sacks but European barley is sold in 25kg sacks, which is about 55lbs. When I use German malts I use kilos. When I use domestic malts, I use pounds. For temperatures I use all degrees Fahrenheit except when lagering, I lager at -1 degree Celsius. At work, when I'm making chemical additions to the operating lines, some are in liters and some are in gallons. Some titrations I do are in mL and some are in fluid ounces.

[303Guy]

I downloaded that convert.htm and would be you believe it has everything except candlepower and lumens!

[Ola]

The metric system is great as over all system. For me it's as natural as it can be.

But in guns and shooting the influence of USA has been so dominant, that f.e. the grains are the natural weight unit. Take a look at the bullet weights: 150, 180, 200, 240 260, 300 grains. Nice round numbers compared to grams (9,7198, 11,664, 12,96, 15,552, 16,848, 19,44). Also in powder charges we have so much reloading data from US that many of us here are "thinking in grains".

For same reason we use quite fluently inches that are not in common use here. The barrel lenghts in cm tell me nothing but 24, 26, 28 or 30 inches, that I can understand. Same goes in "dotsomething" bullet diameters. I have only a faint idea of some calibers in mm.

And, this is again a great excample: .429" is 10,897mm and .430 is 10,922mm. ( I had no idea. Had to use a converter to find out.) The point is that in inch-based calibers the bullet diameter is easier in inches. In some cases the name of the caliber will even tell you the actual bullet diameter (.308, .357...) In European calibers the number in the name is never exactly right.

So, I'm sure that some things are going to be in inches and grains, forever.

[303Guy]

So, I'm sure that some things are going to be in inches and grains, forever.Yup. Mind you, 762 NATO rolls off the tongue just fine. So does 9mm Para and 6.5 Swede. 7.62x39 does not! It's a 762 Soviet - simple. The other one is a 762 Russian (7.62x54R). 7mm Mauser or 7x57 rolls off just fine. These are cartridge names, we can use whatever name we like. 308 is a cartridge just like the 30-06. I do however measure boolit diameters in millimetres. I just convert to 'American' for posting. I don't really know how big .314 is but I know what it means. (It's 7.976mm which is smaller than my patched boolits which are 8.1mm - I have a calculator next to me! :mrgreen:)

[runfiverun]

the only one i'll try to say is the 7.21 mauser
but then it would be groove diameter and not bore diameter.
and when i said 7x63 everyone would think i meant the 7x61 and not the 280 ross or remington express or 280 remington.
i'm gonna stick with 308 win, rather than 7.62 nato or T-58,or 7.62x51 [same as the 30-30 without the R designation]
sorry...

[troyboy]

Rest of the world uses the metric system. Much less complicated. We as a country would be better off using it.

[MtGun44]

"Much less complicated."

Not really. For some very simple conversions, sure. I do engineering in both and they
totally screwed up the metric system when they defined the weight unit as a "kilogram".
The weight unit should be the newton, NOT the kilogram since a gram (or kilogram) is
a unit of MASS, not weight. Weight is a force, and the newton is the unit of force in
a consistent metric system. BUT, they do not have a consistent metric system, so it
is, IMO, an equally screwed up mess to the English system, with inconsistent units.

It may sound trivial, but for science and engineering, I assure you, it is NOT. It is not
particularly easier to do engineering work in metric than in English units.

For everyday use, I suppose converting meters to kilometers is a touch easier than
feet into miles, but really this is pretty trivial. Doing serious engineering calcs is a lot
more prone to error and they did not take advantage of the opportunity to make a
scientifically consistent units system which would help avoid these errors, so my view
is two sytems, about equally messed up.

Bill

[ElDorado]

Bill, you're correct. That kilogram thing has always irked me a bit.

The unit of weight (force) is the newton, and yet kilogram is treated as though it is weight. I suppose one could make the argument that since gravity is more or less consistent on Earth, that the mass of an object is directly proportional to the force it imparts on the ground, and therefore mass is a reasonable unit of weight (force).

The real reason that they don't use newtons is just what MtGun44 pointed out. Force is determined by multiplying mass times acceleration. One newton is the force required to accelerate one kilogram one meter per second squared. Acceleration in this case is gravity, which is the constant 9.8m/sec2. After doing the math, 1 kg in Earth’s gravity is 9.8 newtons.

Now you have one of those oddball numbers that doesn’t divide by ten, and it’s already hard enough to convince everyone to adopt the decimal system, so let’s just use kilograms as weight and make seem a little easier.

Whew!

Sorry. I find myself ranting a lot lately. I think I need a vacation.

[theperfessor]

Same problem with pounds. I was taught to use "lbf" for pounds force and "lbm" for pounds mass to distinguish the two, same with kgf and kgm.

[MtGun44]

As long as one uses lbf and lbm, you will be OK and it is clear - plus I much prefer
it to either poundals or slugs, but most folks have no need for a practical difference
between mass and force, since they always operate in a 1 G environment, so it
seems pointless to discuss for the average person.

As soon as you start doing engineering or scientific calcs it becomes VERY important
to keep the answers coming out correctly.

The kg as a force unit just irritated me a good bit because they missed the chance
to make a REALLY consistent units system.

Personally, I prefer the English system, but work in both in my personal life and as
an engineer doing project work in both systems.


Bill

[303Guy]

They did indeed screw up the metric system. But the rest of the world does not officially use the 'metric' system. It uses the SI units of measure. That's an attempt to fix the booboos. The kilogram as a base unit is not metric. It's SI. In metric the base unit is the gram which actually doesn't work. But as soon as one starts using terms like one meter fifty the cause is lost. It's 1050mm or 1.05m. Or did they mean 1500mm/1.5m? See? Lost!

At least in SI there is only one unified, interrelated system. In Imperial there is no correlation between the unit of power, force and distance. A horsepower is from a horse, not from a pound-force x distance / unit of time. The British Thermal Unit is another random measure. One can convert from one Imperial measure to another if one knows the conversion number.

Here's one; energy of a bullet. We measure the bullet weight in grains and its speed in feet per second. Energy is measured in foot-pounds (see where this is going?)
So I have 180gr bullet doing 2450fps at the muzzle. That's (180x0.0001428571)x2450²/2 = 77175 foot-pounds of energy for which I had to look up the conversion factor of 0.0001428571.

In Si that would be 0.011664x747²/2 = 3253 joules or kgmsˉ² (Bullet mass in kilograms, velocity in meters per second. 180grs = 11.664g = 0.011664kg). One proviso - we must use base units in SI or we'll get it wrong. So we must convert grams to kilograms (the great metric booboo! kilograms, that is).

Just for fun, how many units of energy are there in the Imperial system? There's foot-pounds for bullets, there's BTU's for heat, there's calories for food, there's horsepower-hours for electricity .... any more? Ah, the ounce-inch - not sure what that' fore. In SI there's just one - the joule. :mrgreen:

[ElDorado]

Here's one; energy of a bullet. We measure the bullet weight in grains and its speed in feet per second. Energy is measured in foot-pounds (see where this is going?)
So I have 180gr bullet doing 2450fps at the muzzle. That's (180x0.0001428571)x2450²/2 = 77175 foot-pounds of energy for which I had to look up the conversion factor of 0.0001428571.


I think you should stick to metric. :kidding:

[William Yanda]

I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but I chuckle every time I go for a metric socket, then have to decide if I want to use 1/4, 3/8 or 1/2 inch drive

[William Yanda]

We were already using the metric units of time. Apologies again if required

[BAGTIC]

The metric system has been legal in the US since 1866. In those 146 years we have been the only country not smart enough to figure it out. Once a country converts it is not necessary to figure out to convert from one system to another. Even backward semi-literate third world pestholes manage to make the change but not us.

Until now the main reason has been protectionism. We constitute a very large largely self sufficient internal market. If we use a system different than other it put them at a competitive disadvantage. Things have changed now because in order to trade abroad we must custom make products to metric specifications while continuiing to make for the domestic market. That makes our products more expensive and costs American manufacturers jobs. Pride leads to downfall.

[BAGTIC]

What happened to the other pound in a 5 pound bag of sugar?

[jhrosier]

We use english units in the USA because we are smart enough to work in whatever units we please.:smile:

I was temporarily baffled when I found a rifle with a rear sight calibrated in Arshins, but I worked it out eventually. An Arshin is the length of the pace of a peasant of average height ( about 28".)

If you need a good units convertor, you can download a free one here:
http://www.engnetglobal.com/tips/toolsapp/

Jack

[3006guns]

ya know, If God wanted us to use the metric system,
Jesus would have had 10 disciples, not 12
:bigsmyl2:

Oh,man...........I like that!