diameters-water quenched vs non-quenched

[Cloudpeak]

I'm casting 200 gr SWC bullets out of a 6 cavity Lee mold and using wheel weights. To date, I've been water quenching and have experimented with sizing to .451 and .452. The mold casts, nomimally, .452 with a range of .450 to .455 depending, I think, on metal temperature, mold temp & other varibles. I tried sizing to .451 and got some leading in my SA 1911 Loaded using 5.0 gr. of W231 using LLA. I had no problems when sized to .452.

I've measured bullets out of each cavity without water quenching and is seems they are a few thousandths larger in diameter than when water quenched. Does this make sense? The 5.0 gr W231 load is a mid-range to light load. I'd like to be able to cast a larger diameter and size down to .452. If I water quench, some bullets pass easily through the .452 sizing die. I thought that air cooled bullets might actually size in the .452 push through die.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[3sixbits]

Cloudpeak: Sizing can reduce the hardness of your bullet by as much as 300%. The best of both worlds is not needing to size, but only passing the bullet for lubing in the sizing die. The best way to control dia of your cast bullets is to have all the metal to be cast, the same. What this means is a bulk melt and conditioning of the metal and casting this melt into ingots small enough to handle. Wheel weights are not created equal. That more than any other reason is why you get the variations in dia. A little trick that can help is age hardening, WW bullets will age harden after three weeks. So cast size to within .002 and let the metal rest for three weeks before you use them. This will do a great deal to stop the leading.

[44man]

Water quenched boolits WILL expand if you let them sit a while. You should not measure any boolit right after casting unless it is pure or pure with a little tin. Antimony alloys take time to stabilize.
If you lube the boolits in the .452 sizer soon after casting and just forget them for a while, you will find they will be larger. You have a gift horse and are looking in it's mouth.

[Cloudpeak]

I just cast some pure lead bullets out of my 6 cavity 200 SWC Lee mold. There were some minor variations but I'd say the bullets averaged .450 to .451. I slugged the bore on my SA loaded stainless and the bullets measured .451.

The Lee tumble lube design bullets did not lead at the same loading. I measured a bunch of them and they are .453" The Penns bullets I've shot with the same loading measure .453 and no leading. I think the next step for me with this mold is to JB weld some .001 shim stock to the mold face. Cleaning a leaded bore is a pain:(

Cloudpeak

[arkypete]

For what it's worth
I size all of my 45 Colt bullets .454 to fit the chamber mouths.
I size my 45 AutoRim the same.
I size my 45 acp .4525 to .453. Two thousandths seems to be just right for preventing leading.
Jim

[leftiye]

Cloud, If all of those different sizes are coming out of the same potfull of alloy, then something besides alloy variation is going on. . . ? ? One possibility is that the mold is not closing properly, or has at various times small bits of lead (or??) stuck to the mold faces.

Lead on the surface of the boolit which is moved (swaged ) by sizing is dead soft. All of the crystalline structure is broken down when the lead is "smeared."

[Cloudpeak]

Cloud, If all of those different sizes are coming out of the same potfull of alloy, then something besides alloy variation is going on. . . ? ? One possibility is that the mold is not closing properly, or has at various times small bits of lead (or??) stuck to the mold faces.

Lead on the surface of the boolit which is moved (swaged ) by sizing is dead soft. All of the crystalline structure is broken down when the lead is "smeared."

Bingo. The third series of bullets I cast and measured were really off. I discovered a burr the mold that did keep the mold from closing all the way giving me oversized diameters. So, the diameters are in the .451-.453 range.

The .452 Lee push through sizer seems to do very little re-sizing. Ocasionally, the bullet will come back out of the sizer on the downstroke. There is generally no effort at all to push the bullet through and no marks on the bullet. Often, the only marks will be on the mold lines.

I'm going to try the .001 shim and see if that helps. If I can get to .453 diameter, I'll shoot them without sizing. Because the bullets out of the Lee mold are not perfectly round and, due to possible mold surface contamination that would result in a little larger diameter, I thought it was a good idea to run everything through the sizer so all bullet diameters were for sure the same.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[leftiye]

If they're right for the barrel fo your 1911 (1 to two thou over groove dia.) and they're sizeable or useable unsized, how they like your sizer isn't too important.

Unsized and shootable (correct size) is actually better. Keep your eyes on the mold surfaces and get it where they all come out the same size (even 1 or 2 thou variance says there's something wrong), then if you have to Beagle it out with tape to get them large enough, I'd shoot for 1 thou over groove and shoot em as cast, just lube em.

I'd also hazard a guess that your .452 sizer is actually a little on the big side. Slug it (or otherwise reliably measure it) just to be sure.

[Cloudpeak]

If they're right for the barrel fo your 1911 (1 to two thou over groove dia.) and they're sizeable or useable unsized, how they like your sizer isn't too important.

Unsized and shootable (correct size) is actually better. Keep your eyes on the mold surfaces and get it where they all come out the same size (even 1 or 2 thou variance says there's something wrong), then if you have to Beagle it out with tape to get them large enough, I'd shoot for 1 thou over groove and shoot em as cast, just lube em.

I'd also hazard a guess that your .452 sizer is actually a little on the big side. Slug it (or otherwise reliably measure it) just to be sure.


I have no idea how I would go about getting a low cost, Lee 6 cavity die to cast bullets with less than 1-2 thou. variance. My Penns bullets vary by .001 to .0015. My factory Hornady jacketed 240 gr bullets vary by .001. The bullets I cast out of my Lyman 429421 vary by .001 to .002 (as cast)

As far as I can tell, the sizer is pretty close to specs. I picked out Penns that was .453" in diameter and it was an easy push through the .452 sizing die. It might have reduced the diameter by .0005.

It's a worthy goal to be able to shoot as cast. But, I worry about a mold "uh-oh" that might cause a few bullets to increase in diameter. Probably not a problem with reduced loads but I don't know the pressure effects of shooting a bullet that might be .003 or so larger than the others. So, I liked the idea of running everything through the sizer to both eleminate the chance of an oversized bullet causing problems and to, hopefully, increase accuracy due to uniform bullets.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[Cloudpeak]

I was determined to add a shim of .001 to the mold face to enlarge the bullet diameter in the Lee 6 cavity. I couldn't find any .001" shims (small town) so, I cut shims out of a Diet Sprite can, .004". I glued these at the four corners of the mold with JB Weld, placed wax paper over one mold half (gotta be able to get the mold halves apart) and clamped the mold halves together.

I cast around 500 bullets this afternoon. The J-B'd tabs stayed put. The diameters varied from .452 to .456 as cast. They measured .452 to .4525 after being sized in the .452 Lee push through sizing die. Before the mod, the bullets had no visible indication they had been pushed through the size die. Now, all bullets have very shiny driving bands. I can't help think that this will solve the leading problem and the bullets are more concentric than they were before. The only downside was that the bullets had some "flash" but it wasn't bad and, I hope, simply cosmetic.

I'll tumble lube the bullets tomorrow and load some up and see if they lead. I'll hold off on some and give the bullets time to age harden and see if I can tell any difference as someone stated that sizing bullets will reduce hardness 300%. I did a "thumbnail test" on the sized bullets and the mark left didn't seem much different from the un-sized bullets.

Oh, I tried using water with the push through die. It worked just fine.

Cloudpeak

[Forester]

I hate to throw another wrench into things, but why water quench boolits for a .45ACP? The velocity (pressure really) is just not high enough to worry about it. I have cast and shot quite a few 200gr LSWC from a Lee mold in the past several months since I got into casting and just air cooled.

FWIW I size to .452 with a Star Sizer and lube with Magma Engineering's lube because its cheap and works well for me.

[Cloudpeak]

but why water quench boolits for a .45ACP?

Maybe it's like the guy who jumped into a bed of catus? "It seemed like a good idea at the time!"

I should try some without water quenching. But, I was trying to solve a leading problem with bullets from this mold and harder seemed better. If my latest round of bullets prove out OK, I'll try some unquenched.

Cloudpeak

[GrizzLeeBear]

Forester, the same question popped into my head when I first started reading this thread. There should be no reason to water quench 45acp bullets. Harder bullets are not always the answer to a leading problem, a hard bullet smaller than bore dia. is a sure recipe for leading. Especially if it a low pressure load (like the 45acp) and especially if it has a bevel base (like the Lee SWC). So, water quench + bevel base bullet + size it to .451 (.001 under bore dia.) + shoot it in a low pressure round = leading.
Cloudpeak, you didn't say what you alloy is, but air cooled WW sized .452 or slightly larger should shoot fine with little or no leading in your 45.

[Cloudpeak]

I'm using wheel weights. I can't say why I started water quenching. Something I read here and I thought it sounded like a good idea.

With water quenched 200 SWC out of my TL Lee 6 cavity, I had no leading. This mold threw larger diameter bullets. The mold I'm using now casts undersized (or did before the Sprite modification.

I'll try the air dried bullets. I'd prefer to do this as it would save time and hassle.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[NuJudge]

The water slows the bullets fall enough that they just accumulate in the bottom of the bucket. I believe I can cast faster because I don't have to worry about making sure they don't hit other bullets.

CDD

[drinks]

I am using that bullet, mold reamed out to .459", in a .45-70 at 1600fps just using air cooled wws and have no leading.
I use the same bullet, unsized, air cooled, not reamed, in .45 ACP at 900fps in my S&W 1917 with no leading.
Worry about being big enough, not hard enough until you get above 1800-2000fps.

[BluesBear]

That's the reason I always water quenched all of my boolits too.
Not for any hardness reason but just to keep them from banging into each other.
I use an old motel towel with a big slit cut across center that I secure with rubber bands to one of those big white plastic pickle buckets from White Castle.

[Cloudpeak]

The water slows the bullets fall enough that they just accumulate in the bottom of the bucket. I believe I can cast faster because I don't have to worry about making sure they don't hit other bullets.

CDD

That's probably one of the reasons I started water quenching. I did do some air cooled the other day before I modified the mold. The bullets were undersized so I remelted them and cast water quenched bullets. When I did the air cooled, I just dropped them on a large, folded over towel and moved the bullets to one end after they cooled. No problems with "dings" that way.

Cloudpeak

[Ricochet]

I think it's less trouble to water drop 'em and anneal 'em in a batch if I want 'em soft. Stick 'em in the oven, heat 'em up as for quench hardening, turn the oven off and let it cool down.

[Cloudpeak]

I shot a series of loads today and have less leading. What little leading there is comes out easliy. I think I might be a little stingy with the LLA. The tumble lubed design Lee 200 SWC did not lead but, because of the short nose, didn't feed well.

My best, reduced loads were 3.4 clays, COAL 1.25-1.259 for a 4 shot group of .510 at 48 feet. (Yes, there was one flyer, but I called it so it doesn't count<G>.) The other good load was 3.8 Clays, same distance and COAL for a group of 5 shots of .569" Things are looking up.

Next project, air cooled bullets with same powder and COAL.

Cloudpeak
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