9MM Help Blown Cases and Guns

[lesharris]

I have a problem with a 9MM loading.
The load is a Lee 9mm TC 120Gr.regular lube,not tumble lubed bullet,over 4.0 grains of Hodgdon Universal Clays,seating depth is 1.040" OAL.
winchester once fired cases,winchester small pistol primers.
Problem is cases are blowing out at the web area.
Blow outs were in a Beretta 92,Glock 26,and a S&W 59.
The Glock and S&W will not fire out of battery. The Beretta does fire out of battery.
OAL was originally at 1.100". The rounds would not chamber. The lands on the barrels were contacting the bullets.
Need suggestions on this problem????
I know I can pull bullets and start over again,but i really do not want to pull over 600 bullets.
Glock was tried with Glock and Lone Wolf barrels.
Extractor was blown from Glock.
Beretta grip was blown off.

[Larry Gibson]

Do all the cases blow or just one every now and then? If every now and then you probably over charged some cases, especially if the others show no bulge at the web. Were these loaded on a progressive press? If yes then what press?

If most of the cases blow then pull 10 bullets and weigh each powder charge to make sure it is 4 gr of Clays. If you find one or any over charged you've no chioce but to pull all the bullets.

OOB firing.....obviously not good either; Pull all of your barrels, hold vertical and drop 10 loaded rounds into the chamber of each. All rounds should "plunk right in with the head of the cartridge even with or below the barrel hood. The case must not be higher than the hood, if it is try seating the bullets deeper. The bullets should not be engraved by the leade at all. The loaded rounds should plunk in and fall out on their own when you invert the barrel.

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

How do the primers look?

[obssd1958]

I think that what you are seeing is over pressure loads - due to seating the boolit too deeply. The 9mm has very little case capacity to begin with, and boolit seating depth is critical. The evidence is in your photos.
I took the loads from a couple of different sources to show how seating depth can drastically alter pressures:
From the Hodgdon website:
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m9/obssd1958/shooting/cast%20boolits%20related/9mm_loads.jpg
125 GR. LCN Hodgdon Titegroup .356" 1.125" 3.6 1002 22,900 CUP 4.0 1096 30,400

From Lyman's 49th edition:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m9/obssd1958/shooting/cast%20boolits%20related/9mm_loads_Lyman.jpg

If you look at the Titegroup loads for the two sources, you'll see that a difference of .015 seating depth ( I know it's not the only difference ) seems to make a HUGE difference in pressure and velocity for the powder charges used.

As I said to start with - 9mm seating depth is critical!!
Try backing off your powder charge to compensate for the seating depth that you need for this boolit, in your guns.

Hope this helps!

Don

[ku4hx]

Wife and I got back from our gun club about and hour ago where I fired something over 200 rounds 9mm Luger using Lee's 124 grain tradition lube TC boolit. Cartridge OAL is 1.080" with neck diameter being .377". Load is 5.5 grains of Power Pistol. This round in all my 9mm pistols is superb. They all chamber in the [removed] barrel with a satisfying "ker-plunk" and fall right out when the barrel is inverted. 5.5 grains PP is a fairly stout load.

I've never had a problem like you're havng and frankly the thought of me going through what your are is downright frightening.

I know you don't want to pull 600 boolits, but if you're regularly blowing cases and have broken an extractor and blow a grip panel off, you need to deal with the ammo. Not for you alone, but others shooting near you. I once pulled several hundred 45 ACP because of a possible double charge of Bullseye. Some things you just gotta do.

This one came home with me because I dropped it.

[flounderman]

I'm not familiar with universal clays as to whether it is a ball powder, flake or stick. If you are dropping the powder thru a small diameter drop tube it is probably bridging up and you're getting more powder in some loads and less in others. blowing cases like that isn't due to seating depth, it's an overcharge. look at the drop tube and see how small the hole is. the lyman measures have two different sizes. I use a loading block and visually check for anything that doesn't look right. I dumped some cases and remeasured them yesterday because I had the 22 size drop tube and something plugged it up. you should use as large a drop tube as is workable so you don't get a dangerous situation. using a loading block and visually checking can save a lot of grief. hard to do with a progressive, but make sure the drop tube has a big enough hole that all the powder drops thru. make sure you have a reliable scale to start with. weigh the charges in 10 or 20 cases and load them and if your scale is right, you should not have any problems. if your scale is accurate, and you read it right, the problem is quite likely in the powder measure and most likely in too small a hole in the drop tube. you are not just a little overcharged when you blow a case like that. could be double charged.

[lesharris]

A few items/info I did not include in original post.
All rounds were loaded on a single stage press.
All powder charges were checked on a scale.
Rounds were checked using a max cartridge gauge and barrel ,all rounds went in and out of both with no problems. Nothing stuck out above barrel.
Primers are normal after firing.
Not every round blew out,2 out of 50 was the rate,but still a definite safety issue.
I hate to do it I think pressures are the problem with the bullets seated too deeply.
I will pull the loads rather than firing them.

[runfiverun]

universal is right close to unique in burn rate.
i am with some of the others that said the deep seating is causing over the top pressures.
.006 don't sound like much.
but it's adding to pressure which is not linear.
call it 4% less case capacity, on a [ for this instance] max load, a boolit slightly oversized, and overweight, and already stressed brass.
{things are adding up quickly here}
the cases may also have no room to expand in the chamber, and they are going right as the slide is moving backwards.
anyways thats the combination of scenarios i am seeing.

[flounderman]

if you weighed the charges on 600 cases, how long did it take you? what was your loading procedure? did you load each case as you filled it, or did you have the cases in a loading block? if they were in a block, could you have double charged some. what does a double charge look like? does it fill the case to the top or is there room in the case? if a double charge runs the case over, obviously they were not double charged. if there is some room in the case, it's possible. unless that load was on the edge of an accident waiting to happen, I don't see seating depth causing that kind of destruction. If the bullet is pushed into the rifling is more likely to cause a pressure spike with fast powder. the bullet is stuck in place while the pressure curve is rising.

[Larry Gibson]

lesharris

A few items/info I did not include in original post.
All rounds were loaded on a single stage press.
All powder charges were checked on a scale.

If a mechanical scale are you sure it was set right, or if digital was it calibrated? Many of us don't like to admit it but we learned to double check such by making mistakes. I learned the hard way myself and now double check the scale also.

Rounds were checked using a max cartridge gauge and barrel ,all rounds went in and out of both with no problems. Nothing stuck out above barrel.
Primers are normal after firing.

This is what leads me to believe there is a problem with high pressure in some of the cartridges. Your bullets are not seated that deep to cause such excessive psi to blow the case like that......unless there isn't enough neck tension and some are getting really pushed back into the case when feeding in the pistols.

Not every round blew out,2 out of 50 was the rate,but still a definite safety issue.
I hate to do it I think pressures are the problem with the bullets seated too deeply.
I will pull the loads rather than firing them.

As you pull the bullets weigh 50 charges to see if you get any over charges. It's better to take the time to discover the problem, especially if you need to change your loading technique to prevent such occurances. Your decision to pull them is the prudent decision.

Larry Gibson

[obssd1958]

I see that we still have a few folks that think that loading the boolit a little to deeply in the case, cannot cause the type of overpressure issues that the OP is seeing. Keep in mind that the boolits were originally seated to a cartridge overall length of 1.100" and he reduced that to 1.040" - that's .060" deeper.

Now take this into account - directly from Speer Reloading Manual No. 11, page 385, concerning reloading the 9mm Parabellum:
"loads that produced 28,000 cup went to 62,000 cup when bullets were purposely seated .030" deeper!"

I am not interested in an argument, but don't you think that an excursion into the 50k or 60k cup pressure region would produce the type of damage that he is seeing??

These small differences in seating depth may not have a big influence on pressure in a larger case, like the .44 or .45, but they are potentially dangerous in the 9mm.
It's important that we don't dismiss their affects!


Don

[beagle]

If you loaded 600, I'd say you have a lot of pulling to do. Never would I load a lot that size and not test them first.

In an auto, those look downright dangerous.

When I started loading 9mm seriously, I was loading for a Blackhawk convertible. My thoughts were that the Blackhawk would take it and I was right but I did open some primer pockets to the point where new primers dropped out so the seating cautions are real.

When I started shooting 9mm in my High Powers, I cut way back and worked up until I got good functioning and carefully recorded my seating depth/cartridge overall length.

On new loads, drop back .5 grain from starting and work up if you're experimenting with seating depths.

Case brands make a difference as well and Speer and FC have thinner cases than do WW and RP. Military cases are the worst of all. They're thick.

So far, you've been lucky and haven't gotten hurt or ruined a gun. Pull 'em and start over cautiously. Sorry to be so critical but I definitely beleive in safety and caution in reloading./beagle

[MtGun44]

I bet that you are not taper crimping these rounds, or not enough. I imagine that
occasionally a boolit pushes into the case and the pressure, already high runs
through the roof. Probably inadequate neck tension, too.

What is your expander diameter? What diameter boolit? How much is the mouth
diameter reduced by your TC process below the area immediately behind the
taper crimp?

Bill

[geargnasher]

I think Larry Gibson and MTGun44 nailed it by mentioning the boolit getting seated deeper in the magazine UNDER RECOIL FORCES. All can be perfectly well when you load the magazine and put it in the gun, but after two or three rounds the recoil can punch the boolits back in the cases of the cartridges left in the magazine, and when the first one of those finds its way into the chamber and gets fired, KABOOM.

I had this happen in .45 ACP once due to alloy being too soft for the amount of case tension I was using. I think it was the fourth round that blew the grip panels off. What was left of the cartridges in the bottom of the magazine had telescoped the boolits.

Gear

[Doble Troble]

I am trying to remain calm...but DO NOT SHOOT ANY MORE OF THOSE!!

There is something VERY VERY WRONG and you need to figure-out what it is.

First thought...I seem to remember Clays and Universal Clays are different powders - Clays being fast and Universal Clays being slower like Unique. Make sure you aren't loading Clays with Universal charges. Second thought...I don't have one - those rounds are overcharged!

If you had cases blowing out like that in multiple guns, it isn't the guns, it's the ammo. I know pulling isn't fun (but think of all the time you're saving not being hospitalized). In these terms, cost-wise you'll be way ahead digging a hole and burying them and starting over.

And everyone who has loaded more than a few hundred rounds has screwed-up and so nobody's trying to be hard on you, we just want you to be around when the next guy who does what we've all done gets into trouble so you can join us in talking him down. Misery loves company.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I IFIRC seating depth is a critical issue in the little 9mm case, w/ some loads you can triple pressures with VERY little difference in seating depth.
pulling the bullets is the safe thing to do.:Fire::Fire:

[nicholst55]

I would suggest that if the OP doesn't want to pull all 600 bullets, then he should dig a hole and bury the entire lot of that ammo. Then reexamine his loading procedure to determine where his problem(s) lie.

Lemme see - high pressure in a Glock chamber? Yup, looks just like the blown cases he showed.

The OP has been lucky up to this point in only causing superficial damage to his guns. Extractors and grips can be replaced; fingers? Not so much.

[Atakawow]

I have a problem with a 9MM loading.
The load is a Lee 9mm TC 120Gr.regular lube,not tumble lubed bullet,over 4.0 grains of Hodgdon Universal Clays,seating depth is 1.040" OAL.
winchester once fired cases,winchester small pistol primers.
Problem is cases are blowing out at the web area.
Blow outs were in a Beretta 92,Glock 26,and a S&W 59.
The Glock and S&W will not fire out of battery. The Beretta does fire out of battery.
OAL was originally at 1.100". The rounds would not chamber. The lands on the barrels were contacting the bullets.
Need suggestions on this problem????
I know I can pull bullets and start over again,but i really do not want to pull over 600 bullets.
Glock was tried with Glock and Lone Wolf barrels.
Extractor was blown from Glock.
Beretta grip was blown off.

I think the OP was using CLAYS rather than UNIVERSAL CLAYS. I am 100% positive that there is no chance in high heaven that 4.0 gr of Universal with that boolit can cause such high pressure. My go to load for that boolit is actually 4.2-4.3 gr of Universal, 1.035" average OAL. Been shooting it for months and no where near the pressure limit.

[Harter66]

Just as a 2 cent piece I've not blown a case in my HP clone ,and I've had a couple of top end work up loads lock the slide open because the slide moved faster than the magazine springs. I'm thinking high presure coupled w/the Glock bulge reducing case strength. I've a bunch of Glocked brass that runs fine and is yet to fail so I don't buy the bulge theory but offered it as Glock to Glock to Glock. A guy might get that.

[Reload3006]

I have to throw in with the not enough crimp theory. My Kahr will shove a boolit in a long ways if I dont crimp it. I have been fortunate that I haven't had the same issue. But I have been using a lot slower powder too. I was very light on the crimp because I didnt want to Swage my Boolits down and cause leading. But along with pressure issues I had several not wanting to go into battery. So I have started making sure i get a good crimp. it doesn't take as much as you would think.

[x101airborne]

If these are YOUR once fired cases and some are shot out of the glock, did you check for the tell tale "glock bulge"? I dont know about the 9mm, but my 40 does not fully support the case head. Once fired, I get quite a bulge at the head and it must be removed with a redding die. If you have this bulge in your cases and dont remove it, then reload and fire them, you are almost guranteed to have a blow out like that regardless of what powder or charge you use. Just something to check for. It may save you from pulling 2/3 of your ammo.

[HeavyMetal]

curious as to feed ramps / chamber areas on your guns.

Have you or someone you know polished the feed ramps on these guns???

1 or 2 out of 50 or so may not be over pressure as much as unsupported brass hanging over the feed ramp.

But my thoughts are pull the rounds you have left down and start over! Checking everything before you load another round.

[geargnasher]

I think the OP was using CLAYS rather than UNIVERSAL CLAYS. I am 100% positive that there is no chance in high heaven that 4.0 gr of Universal with that boolit can cause such high pressure. My go to load for that boolit is actually 4.2-4.3 gr of Universal, 1.035" average OAL. Been shooting it for months and no where near the pressure limit.

If that was the situation, every one of them would have blown, not just two out of 50 or so.

I blew up my .45 with 5.0 grains of Universal clays under a 203-grain boolit. NO, it WASN'T a double-charge. The alloy I was using for the HP boolits combined with the small bearing surface of the boolit and lack of crimp was hammering them back in the case. I noticed the last three in the first clip seemed a little peppy, but I was suffering some wrist problems at the time and blew it off. I took a break and loaded a second magazine and fired the first one using a different grip. "There, that's better" I thought. Second shot, ok. I don't recall for sure if it was the third or fourth shot, but the gun shucked a lot of parts when it went off.

Loading and shooting "green" alloy, like wheel weights or range scrap that hasn't had a chance to age-harden can sure contribute to potential deep-seating under recoil Kaboom problems, that's something for everyone to watch for.

All this is speculation as to what the OP's issue really is until he gets it figured out (hopefully by checking some of the things that have been recommended to him here already), but one thing's for sure, all that ammo needs to be taken out of service and broken down or destroyed.

Gear

[BD]

From the pictures and information given it seems clear that these boolits are seated too deeply. This in itself is raising the pressures. In addition, from the picture it appears that the boolits may be seated below the mouth of the case causing any taper crimp to want to set them even deeper into the case when the round hits the feed ramp. When you taper crimp a round beyond the end of the straight shank of the boolit, the crimp both squeezes the boolit deeper into the case and swells the case walls below the crimp. making it easier for the boolit to set back upon chambering.

Simple check is to push one against the edge of the table and see if you can set the boolit deeper. Dropping a loaded round on it's nose from about 12" is a fair approximation of what can occur when the round hits the feed ramp. Try it, and then measure the resulting COAL.
BD

[Ozarklongshot]

I'm going with crimp problem, especially if you have mixed headstamps. I chased this problem in a 45 for a while before I figured it out. My cases looked just like yours. Boolits were suffering setback on chambering causing a pressure spike. Dump them out and start by pressing them nose down on your bench. If this is the problem it will show up pretty quick.

[lesharris]

OK to update this thread.
I pulled some of the boolits.
The powder was Universal Clays and the weight was correct.
The alloy was well aged.
Crimps were tight and not allowing boolit setback.
However upon closer examination I found a small sliver of lead resting on the front edges of some of the casings.Would this cause the problem ? Yes. How do I know? I tried the ronds with the small sliver of lead in 2 barrels. Results if the sliver lined up with the lands in the barrel the round would not fully seat. If the sliver aligned on the grooves all was well.
Surprisingly it would seem the gun was fully in battery when it wasn't. Add that space to the space in the unsupported chambers/feed ramp area it is enough to cause the blowouts.
I do agree with all of your suggestions on this problem.
I am pulling all the loads in the interest of safety. I do not like blowing up my guns or possible injury to anyone.
A nice winter project to be done.
Good part lead will be remelted and cast,lawn/garden will have fertilizer and I now have primed brass.
Thanks all for your help.
Les Harris

[MtGun44]

That sliver comes from not TC as a separate operation. Seating the the boolit and crimping
in the same operation has the boolit moving while crimping, raising this ring. It is
always a good idea to seat and crimp as sep ops with boolits. You can often get away
with it with a jbullet, esp one with a cannelure, but not good with boolits.

Add a separate TC die, or seat short of the crimp ring in one operation, then pull out
the seater stem and adjust the same die down and crimp as a separate operation and
you will not have these rings.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

However upon closer examination I found a small sliver of lead resting on the front edges of some of the casings.Would this cause the problem ? Yes. How do I know? I tried the ronds with the small sliver of lead in 2 barrels. Results if the sliver lined up with the lands in the barrel the round would not fully seat. If the sliver aligned on the grooves all was well.
Surprisingly it would seem the gun was fully in battery when it wasn't. Add that space to the space in the unsupported chambers/feed ramp area it is enough to cause the blowouts.

Given all the powder charges are safe then that would appear to be the problem; OOB firing.

Larry Gibson

[CATS]

Waste not want not. However, I would not be keen to use anymore of that pound of powder. Grass needs to eat, same as buzzards and worms. Pull them all and start over with another can of powder.

[mroliver77]

What did I miss? What is the problem with the powder?
J

[wildphilhickup]

OAL is NOT the problem.

The gunz are firing OOB as stated above.

LOL!

[Recluse]

OAL is NOT the problem.

The gunz are firing OOB as stated above.

LOL!

And this is funny (LOL!) how or why?

:coffee:

[wildphilhickup]

Never said it was funny, misinterpretation by reader.

I for one, would be pulling the bullets.

[wildphilhickup]

I have a friend with a Glock Model 22, Gen 3.

Using a hard cast bullet, 180 grain, TC style, the rounds were at the correct OAL.

His gun would fire Out Of Battery with these rounds.

One case did blow out just like the 9mm.

[geargnasher]

Never said it was funny, misinterpretation by reader.

I for one, would be pulling the bullets.

Guess I "misinterpreted" it too. I don't have much of a sense of humor about these things either. I'm still trying to figure out how three guns and multiple cases were blown up from a single batch of ammo before the light bulb finally came on.

Another reason why being on the firing line with others at public shooting ranges makes me nervous.

Gear

[wilit]

OAL is NOT the problem.

The gunz are firing OOB as stated above.

LOL!


And this is funny (LOL!) how or why?

:coffee:


Never said it was funny, misinterpretation by reader.

I for one, would be pulling the bullets.

LOL = Laughing Out Loud. Generally this is an indication that you find something funny.