LR primers in the 44 Magnum

[Larry Gibson]

Thought I’d just start a new thread instead of digging up the old one. Got a break in the weather so I conducted the test of LR primers in the 44 Magnum. SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the 44 Magnum is 36,000 psi with a MPSM (Maximum Probable Sample Mean) of 38,800 psi.

The test was conducted with a Contender pistol and the Oehler M43. All tests are 9 or 10 shot test strings. I had 2 FTF with the Contender and 2 of the primers. I used two loads;

RCBS 44-250-K cast of WWs + 2 %tin with a BHN of 16, sized .430 and lubed with Javelina
WW Super 44 Magnum cases (new) with primer pockets reamed for LR primers
WW Super 44 Magnum cases (new) with standard primer pockets with control loads
OAL; 1.711”
Powders; Alliant 2400 (21 gr) & H110 (23 gr)
Results listed as; primer/average velocity (fps)/SD/ES/average PSI (M43)/SD/ES

H110 load;
Control load;
WLP/1400/24/78/21,700/1,200/3,600

LR primer loads;
Rem 9 1/2/1466/47/112/25,200/3,500/8,500
CCI 200/1390/49/141/22,100/1,500/4,200
CCI #34/1507/35/107/28,300/3,000/9,000
WLR/1506/26/85/28,500/2,300/6,000
Fed 215/1544/12/36/31,600/1,500/4,100

Here we see all the psi’s within SAAMI proscribed MAP. We find the control load with WLP primers to be relatively mild. The hotter Fed 215 magnum LR primer produced the most consistent internal ballistics and the highest psi with the highest velocity with H110. No pressure problems observed with using the LR primers in this load with H110 powder.

Alliant 2400 load;
Control load;
Fed 150/1542/18/51/30,800/1,000/2,700

LR primer loads;
Rem 9 1/2/1603/13/37/34,700/500/1,200
CCI 200/1589/20/46/33,000/1,800/5,000
CCI #34/1634/10/27/37,900/1,900/5,500
WLR/1633/8/22/37,600/1,000/2,600
Fed 215/1641/13/29/41,200/1,900/4,100

Here we see some LR primers (the “soft” 9 ½ & 200) are OK with this load keeping the psi under the SAAMI MAP/ However, when magnum level LR primers are used we see the psi going Over the MAP and the Fed 215 psi going over the MPSM. Note the very good internal ballistics with this load of 2400 with all the primers tested. Obviously this load is burning very efficiently in the 30K to 41K psi range.

Obviously the use of LR primers raises the psi in both loads. I’ll leave the question of “is it dangerous” for you all to decide. Note; I was not able to seat LR primers in standard pocket cases without severely scrunching them so the Contender would close or the cylinder of my Colt Anaconda or Ruger BHFT would rotate. To use LR primers in the WW Super cases really requires the primer pockets be reamed out.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Good show, Larry! ... felix

[stubshaft]

Good job Larry. I use LR and SR primers respectively in my pistol cartridge loads for my Marlin rifles.

[Johnk454]

Similar test, yet different caliber from eight years ago:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/johnk/primertest.htm

The real issue is to make sure a fellow doesn't work up a load with say, a pistol primer and then switch to a rifle primer only to discover a much more vigorous load ensued...

[runfiverun]

it does appear that the hotter magnum primers do show wider pressure swings.
i would wonder if they could push things too far.
the standard rifle primers with the high density powder loads actually look pretty good.
i'd be interested to see the results on target from a bench gun.
the standard deviation and extreme spread in velocity are misleading in terms of [relating to] pressure though.
who would expect 2,000 psi to only come to 30 fps in velocity??

i have noticed some loads of 2400 to be more accurate with rifle primers [in rifle cartridges]
than revolver primers.
and oftentimes a filler will reverse this.
i think because the rifle primer has enough "oomph"to disturb the fillers purpose.

i have been working with powders slower than h-110 in many of the "magnum" and supermagnum cases [aa-1680 and aa-2230] and some swaged bullets up to 350 grs.
the large rifle primers have been on my mind for a bit, but this definately is a direction i will have to take now i'm gonna have to go pull some 315 gr bullets and start again. :lol:

[Cariboo]

thanks Larry, very informative

[MakeMineA10mm]

Actually, with the H110 load, the WLP showed the lowest pressure deviation and spread.

I must have missed the previous thread that instigated this investigation? As it stands, it's good data, and just tells me - there's no sense in spending the time and effort to ream out my 44 pistol brass to take rifle primers.

Pistol caliber carbines are intended to work with pistol primers, so no need from that standpoint... Is there a capacity issue, where we're running out of case volume for the powder, and therefore, we need to add some juice via the primer? (I could see that with a bulky slow powder for this application, such as IMR-4227, which always has a few thousand PSIs left to reach max when the case is full to the point of mild compression of the powder.)

[Bwana]

Actually, with the H110 load, the WLP showed the lowest pressure deviation and spread.

I must have missed the previous thread that instigated this investigation? As it stands, it's good data, and just tells me - there's no sense in spending the time and effort to ream out my 44 pistol brass to take rifle primers.

Pistol caliber carbines are intended to work with pistol primers, so no need from that standpoint... Is there a capacity issue, where we're running out of case volume for the powder, and therefore, we need to add some juice via the primer? (I could see that with a bulky slow powder for this application, such as IMR-4227, which always has a few thousand PSIs left to reach max when the case is full to the point of mild compression of the powder.)

the thread you missed was this one: http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=130216&highlight=primers+pistol+cases

The point wasn't about "need" except perhaps you might be in a situation where all you had were LR primers to load "handgun" cases. More to the point it showed another area of possibilities which might interest some people.

[Grandpas50AE]

I noticed the best velocity deviation and spread was achieved with the rifle primers and 2400, and the pressure levels could easily be mitigated by easing back half a grain or so on the powder charge. I had thought of trying this many times over the past 10 years, especially after Winchester dropped the magnum primer designation and went with just WLP and WSP for the pistol primers. I load H110 in several pistols, and H110 is a slow-burning powder.

Nice data Larry. Thanks for posting.

[44man]

Good show Larry. Very informative.
I hope fellas remember I use a standard primer in the .44 just to keep the boolit in the brass as long as possible in revolvers.
I hope if anyone tries rifle primers to make sure the pockets are reamed.
I see no reason to use them. Looks like a lot of pressure ES's.

[Shuz]

Nice job,Larry! very thorough.

[cbrick]

Larry, from the other thread I take it the grouping was done at 50 yards? What were the results of group testing between standard pistol and rifle primers?

The rifle primer raised the pressure an average (rounded off) of 10,000 psi from the control load proving my point that the less experienced should not play with this and with top end loads very undesirable results are possible. An increase of 10,000 PSI with the same powder charge is not insignificant.

H-110 control load 21,700 PSI
Fed 215 31,600 PSI

2400 control load 30,800 PSI
Fed 215 41,200 PSI

The question is not can it be done, of course it can the question is should it be done. I'll stick with the purpose of my posts in the other thread, those without the experience to fully understand possible consequences need to also read of possible dangers.

Aside from the safety issue I’m eager to see the results the group testing.

Rick

[Larry Gibson]

the thread you missed was this one: http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=130216&highlight=primers+pistol+cases

The point wasn't about "need" except perhaps you might be in a situation where all you had were LR primers to load "handgun" cases. More to the point it showed another area of possibilities which might interest some people.

Thanks for posting the original thread. I should have done that I suppose just so the background for the test could be understood. Thanks:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Good show Larry. Very informative.
I hope fellas remember I use a standard primer in the .44 just to keep the boolit in the brass as long as possible in revolvers.
I hope if anyone tries rifle primers to make sure the pockets are reamed.
I see no reason to use them. Looks like a lot of pressure ES's.

Bwana had the ability to ream the primer pockets for the LR primers and it was a useful project test for those who may have a rifle/handgun that can handle the pressures. Also for those who ask "if you have to, can you?" it provides the information that the loads really need to be worked up as mentioned.

The pressure ES aren't really that large and are within SAAMI specs for psi variation of an acceptable load. One thing I've learned in the multiple tests I've run with numerous cartridge/loads is that within acceptable variation there isn't a correlation between psi ES and fps ES. Seems like there would be but there isn't. It’s one of those theories of this game that sound good but don't pan out in actual testing.

BTW; SAAMI uses a constant from the Biometrika Tables for Statisticians based on the sample size for 90% confidence to determine the maximum allowable psi ES. If we use the H110 control load for an example;

H110 load;
Control load;
WLP/1400/24/78/21,700/1,200/3,600

We find the maximum allowable psi ES would be 6,192. Even the largest psi ES of; CCI #34/1507/35/107/28,300/3,000/9,000 was still within the maximum allowable psi ES (15,480) for that load with that psi SD.

However, to actually determine what is an acceptable psi variation range SAAMI also uses a maximum allowable SD for acceptable loads. This is 4% of the MAP. This is 1,440 psi SD for the 44 Magnum. We see both control loads with the LP primers are within this allowable SD variation. Only 2 of the Alliant 2400 loads with LR primers are within the allowable SD variation. None of the H110 loads with LR primers fall within the SAAMI acceptable psi SD variation range.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

One thing I've learned in the multiple tests I've run with numerous cartridge/loads is that within acceptable variation there isn't a correlation between psi ES and fps ES. Seems like there would be but there isn't. It’s one of those theories of this game that sound good but don't pan out in actual testing. ... Larry

You should not have expected it, Larry! Energy is expended throughout the entire system which contains components that are never consistent for each shot. Always consider the ACCELERATION of each component at each moment. F = M*A ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, from the other thread I take it the grouping was done at 50 yards? What were the results of group testing between standard pistol and rifle primers?

The rifle primer raised the pressure an average (rounded off) of 10,000 psi from the control load proving my point that the less experienced should not play with this and with top end loads very undesirable results are possible. An increase of 10,000 PSI with the same powder charge is not insignificant.

H-110 control load 21,700 PSI
Fed 215 31,600 PSI

2400 control load 30,800 PSI
Fed 215 41,200 PSI

The question is not can it be done, of course it can the question is should it be done. I'll stick with the purpose of my posts in the other thread, those without the experience to fully understand possible consequences need to also read of possible dangers.

Aside from the safety issue I’m eager to see the results the group testing.

Rick

The groups at 50 yards were good, bad and ugly. I wasn't really trying for best accuracy being more concerned with collecting the measured data. I always shoot better not shooting through screens but I was shooting fairly well. The reason for the inaccuracy is with this Contender barrel accuracy any BB cast bullet cast bullet goes south over 1400 fps. With a FB'd cast bullet like the RCBS bullet used accuracy is usually good through 1480 - 1500 fps. Over that and it goes south. That's what we see here, the H110 load at 1400 fps gave a 10 shot group of 1.95". The Alliant 2400 group at 1542 fps and a much higher psi gave a 3.6" group. The higher velocity/higher psi loads accuracy with the LR primers got down right ugly:(

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

One thing I've learned in the multiple tests I've run with numerous cartridge/loads is that within acceptable variation there isn't a correlation between psi ES and fps ES. Seems like there would be but there isn't. It’s one of those theories of this game that sound good but don't pan out in actual testing. ... Larry

You should not have expected it, Larry! Energy is expended throughout the entire system which contains components that are never consistent for each shot. Always consider the ACCELERATION of each component at each moment. F = M*A ... felix

I haven't expected that since I learned it some time ago......was answering a question. However, it does seem logical to many that there should be a correlation. As we see however, there isn't for the reason you mention.

Larry Gibson

[pdawg_shooter]

Good report Larry. I have used CCI 200s with H110 in my 29 Smith for years. All my primer pockets are cut to use LR in my 44s.

[TNFrank]

To use LR primers in the WW Super cases really requires the primer pockets be reamed out.

Larry Gibson

I was going to say, LR are a bit longer then LP so you'd have to make the primer pocket deeper or you'd be getting high primers. Good info though, thanks.

[cbrick]

Thanks larry, good testing and solid data to examine. Very worthwhile and informative.

Rick

[MakeMineA10mm]

the thread you missed was this one: http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=130216&highlight=primers+pistol+cases

The point wasn't about "need" except perhaps you might be in a situation where all you had were LR primers to load "handgun" cases. More to the point it showed another area of possibilities which might interest some people.

Ah, thanks Bwana. I could tell by Larry's reporting there was more to the story, and now I know. It is very good we do these kinds of tests and have a forum for reporting them. Used to be Handloader magazine would do stuff similar to this, but they've gone commercial now, so no hard-work pieces that don't sell anything, such as this experiment. Thanks guys, for doing it and reporting the results.

[troy_mclure]

In 08 I had no pistol primers, and only win large magum rifle primers. I had good luck with starling brass, the primers weren't too overly hard to seat(about like military 06). My ruger super blackhawk ate them up. There wasn't much difference in recoil, or accuracy, tho I didnt have a chrono at the time.

[fredj338]

Thanks Larry. It only confirms my point of using rifle primers in place of pistol primers w/o reworking the loads. It's certainly rasing pressures w/ certain powders.

[DrBill33]

Through the decades, I have had the misfortune to witness "unexpected consequences" from the practice of utilizing LR primers in pistol cartridges. The difference in thickness (the LR, of course, is thicker than the LP ... as my own recent mic-ings have re-informed me) is such that loading (inthe press) and problems when loading and firing in the chambers have been observed. One time with some serious consequences! If one feels the need for an "hotter" flash, please consider your own safety and use Magnum LP primers in those calibers.

Also, the potential for a serious increase in pressure (when attempting "hot loads") is also a concern.

The next question ius simple: Why the need for a +P type load? We seem to be obsessed with what I call "magnumitis" rather thab concentrating ipon better shot placement.

DrBill33
NRA Training Counselor and Chief Range Safety Officer
Certified "Old Fogey"
7 decade shooter and laoder. Only 3 year caster (and it is FUN!)
NRA Endowment-Life Member
NRA member 1954

[Larry Gibson]

DrBill33

Your question of "Why the need for a +P type load?" may be rhetorical but there was no consideration for a "+P" 44 magnum load proposed by Bwana or myself. The intention of the test was to see how LR primers affected the psi with magnum loads within the SAAMI MAP of 36,000 psi for the 44 Magnum.

Appreciate your concern but "+P" 44 magnum loads was not the intention.

Larry Gibson.

[runfiverun]

+p 44 mag loads are called the 445 super mag.
my dw 445 will fire rifle primers with 100% reliability, that's the final goal of the 44 mag and super heavy bullets i have been working with.
a 350 at 1200 from the 8 or 10" bbl sounds reasonable to me.

[Bwana]

Through the decades, I have had the misfortune to witness "unexpected consequences" from the practice of utilizing LR primers in pistol cartridges. The difference in thickness (the LR, of course, is thicker than the LP ... as my own recent mic-ings have re-informed me) is such that loading (inthe press) and problems when loading and firing in the chambers have been observed. One time with some serious consequences! If one feels the need for an "hotter" flash, please consider your own safety and use Magnum LP primers in those calibers.

Also, the potential for a serious increase in pressure (when attempting "hot loads") is also a concern.

The next question ius simple: Why the need for a +P type load? We seem to be obsessed with what I call "magnumitis" rather thab concentrating ipon better shot placement.

DrBill33
NRA Training Counselor and Chief Range Safety Officer
Certified "Old Fogey"
7 decade shooter and laoder. Only 3 year caster (and it is FUN!)
NRA Endowment-Life Member
NRA member 1954

Dr Bill33,
Instead of just throwing "unexpected consequences" out there, I think all of us would welcome your elucidation concerning these happenings. Perhaps we have missed something. Your input is most welcome.

[GLynn41]

informative and interesting thread- thanks-- as I get older and reload longer what happens inside is as interesting as the mv or outside etc has been

[44man]

Dr Bill33,
Instead of just throwing "unexpected consequences" out there, I think all of us would welcome your elucidation concerning these happenings. Perhaps we have missed something. Your input is most welcome.
I can help here a little.
There are .500 S&W cases around cut for the LP or LR primers. Wrong primers have been loaded and since the LR primer is .010" higher, they slam fired against the frame.
It is a quick, easy way to remove the top of the cylinder and frame! :veryconfu
One other thing that happens is primer pressure will move boolits and some can be driven into the bore before powder ignition. That might account for the large pressure swings.
It is as close as you can get to an SEE event and the cylinder gap pressure release is saving your gun.
You can actually see a reduced velocity with a huge pressure rise.
Primers are not to be taken lightly and the day I tell you to use LR primers in the .44 is the day I hire a bank of lawyers first.

[Bwana]

I can help here a little.
There are .500 S&W cases around cut for the LP or LR primers. Wrong primers have been loaded and since the LR primer is .010" higher, they slam fired against the frame.
It is a quick, easy way to remove the top of the cylinder and frame! :veryconfu
One other thing that happens is primer pressure will move boolits and some can be driven into the bore before powder ignition. That might account for the large pressure swings.
It is as close as you can get to an SEE event and the cylinder gap pressure release is saving your gun.
You can actually see a reduced velocity with a huge pressure rise.
Primers are not to be taken lightly and the day I tell you to use LR primers in the .44 is the day I hire a bank of lawyers first.

I don't know about you, 44man; but, I check each and every primer after seating, it is as natural as breathing. For someone to mistakenly seat LR primers in a LP pocket and not notice is stupid and careless reloading. And I imagine there are some stupid and careless reloaders out there. However, that is not what we are talking about, now is it?

[44man]

I don't know about you, 44man; but, I check each and every primer after seating, it is as natural as breathing. For someone to mistakenly seat LR primers in a LP pocket and not notice is stupid and careless reloading. And I imagine there are some stupid and careless reloaders out there. However, that is not what we are talking about, now is it?
No, Larry made it very clear.
But boolit movement from primers needs addressed too. It is something that can't be seen.

[runfiverun]

james:
i would think you'd see that on the pressure graph in a closed bbl.
the pressures would have to be low from the bullet being away from the case giving the extra room for the gas to get going.
then a spike from trying to get it moving again, and off the chart if it don't.

[Bwana]

james:
i would think you'd see that on the pressure graph in a closed bbl.
the pressures would have to be low from the bullet being away from the case giving the extra room for the gas to get going.
then a spike from trying to get it moving again, and off the chart if it don't.

Over the last 43 years that I've been doing this thing of ours, I have had more than ten and less than twenty times where the powder either didn't light off at all or only got singed on the bottom. All were with compressed loads of slow to very slow powders. The reason that it happened were probably varied; from bad primer to just too much compression. However, other loads in that string generally worked. There were two or three strings where that happened at the start and after driving the boolit out of the bore another round was fired with the same result and that combo was noted and abandoned. I do not recall any of the well written and graph accompanied articles of the past saying or showing this " boolit/bullet being pushed out by primer force then ignition happenstance". Obviously I haven't seen them all so if someone has such an article at hand I would be very interested to read/see it.

[MakeMineA10mm]

DrBill33

Your question of "Why the need for a +P type load?" may be rhetorical but there was no consideration for a "+P" 44 magnum load proposed by Bwana or myself. The intention of the test was to see how LR primers affected the psi with magnum loads within the SAAMI MAP of 36,000 psi for the 44 Magnum.

Appreciate your concern but "+P" 44 magnum loads was not the intention.

Larry Gibson.

I agree with Larry. I can see only two useful situations for using them, both rare:

1) The world has run out of LP primers, but you still want to shoot your 44 Magnum, or

2) You have a Carbine with a long barrel, and you want to utilize that for driving more pressure and gas through the tube to gain more FPS. Like I alluded to in an earlier post, I think the only real ballistic gain would be with a powder very like IMR-4227, where you can't get enough powder in the case to get to maximum pressure.

For example, a typical max 4227 load may include 24 or 24.5grs of powder and have a 100%-105% loading density, but may only get to 90% of max pressures. If we could add a LR primer to that load, we might be able to get:
A. Better burn of the powder, because it's a very high-capacity load of a slow-burning powder (although I'm dubious about this, since 4227 is quite easy to ignite), and
B. Higher overall pressure (still below max MAP pressure) which may drive velocities higher. (Again, I'm not making a claim here, just a supposition. It would need to be tested.)

I've run some velocity tests with AA#9 with my 267gr Heavy Keith SWC, and got the following velocities:
- 267gr Hvy Keith, Top Brass, WLP, 18.5gr AA#9, crimped in groove:
S&W 629 (5" barrel)- 1212, 1293, 1248, 1281, 1207 (avg.: 1248 fps)
Ruger Flttop (6.5" barrel)- 1267, 1334, 1292, 1285, 1310 (avg.: 1297 fps)
Win Trppr (16" barrel)- 1531, 1543, 1545, 1541, 1542 (avg.: 1540 fps)
Marlin 94 (20" barrel)- 1586, 1592, 1582, 1565, 1579 (avg.: 1581 fps)

Note how the velocity only goes up 41 fps with 4" of extra barrel? I'm theorizing that a LR primer with a slightly-too-slow-for-application powder, like 4227 in the 44 Magnum, might give us more velocity while staying within the MAP for the 44 Magnum.

Larry, do you have any 4227 and a 20" barrelled 44 Magnum?

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, do you have any 4227 and a 20" barrelled 44 Magnum?

I have both flavors of current 4227 (Canadian and Australian) and a 16 1/2" M94.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

i have experienced one or two click..awww,boom's and have wondered if it were more predominant with packed powder loads.
or just a primer thing.
or if it did knock the bullet out.
i have had an instance or two where someone [not me :lol:] forgot to put some powder in the case but the bullet just sat there and was not knocked out or even moved.
one where the bullet was knocked forward just enough to bind up the cylinder.
and one that i had to knock the boolit from the bbl of the levergun.

[44man]

I don't know what happens with the 4227's in the .44 fellas but I refuse to ever use it in that caliber again.
With near max loads for IHMSA, the hot gun would make the powder increase pressure and velocity with every shot and primers got dead flat.
I reduced to 21 gr and the same thing happened and each primer was a little flatter until they were once again dead flat.
Each shot hit lower and lower until on the last ram I was 16 clicks higher and still hit 50 meters short. I had run out of sight clicks too.
I was using standard primers, mag primers were worse.
After the gun cooled I was dead center on the first steel but the second would be at the belly line to go down more and more as velocity climbed.
Now the .357 max loved the stuff.

[MakeMineA10mm]

That's interesting 44man. I've never experienced that with 4227. I take it you felt it was a powder issue and not a gun issue? Might have been that particular gun with that particular powder? Did this happen with both Australian and Canadian 4227s?

[Larry Gibson]

I've shot several thousand rounds of 23 gr H4227 under the 429421 in my Hawes 44. with out a single problem Excellent accuracy always. That load also shoots very well in every other 44 magnum I shot it in also. H4227 was/is my favorite powder under the 429244 for use in rifle loads.

Larry Gibson