Water Quench or Air cool method?

[OkieOutlaw]

Hello everyone, Newbie at casting and a first time poster here. I am planning to attempt my first try at casting today as soon as UPS delivers my brand new Lyman big dipper casting furnace. I believe I have everything ready, but am wondering which is better for cast 44 cal. bullet that will be fired in both my Marlin 1894 and my SBH revlover. I will be casting with straight wheelweights in a Lee 429-255 mold. Give a newbie some good advice please?

[Reload3006]

IMO since you said Newbie Personally I would advise you to just air drop your boolits for now. after you get into the swing of things start adding complexity. This may only take you a couple tries to say hey I got this down lets go for something else. But to water drop all you need is a container and a towel over the top with a hole cut in it so the boolit can drop through. as far as which is better? thats a tough one. even the air dropped will eventually harden a lot harder than just out of the mold. The sizing and lube IMO will determine more success or failure than air cooled or water dropped.

[Larry Gibson]

+1 on the air cool.

Suggest you add 1 - 2% tin to the WWs and might even add 30 - 50% pure lead to that to stretch out the WWs.

Also for that plain based bullet to be used in rifle and revolver with one load(?) I suggest you develop the load in the rifle for accuracy. Many times a magnum load developed in a revovler is not that accurate in the rifle with plain based cast bullets. Conversely, accurate loads developed in the rifle (staying within handgun loads) ith plain based cast bullets are most often accurate in the revolver.

Depending on the load a harder plain base cast bullet sometimes works ok in both with a top end load developed in the revolver with some powders if the rifle dowsn't push them too fast. If you want best accuracy with a top end magnum revovler load that shoots good in the rifle to then a GC'd cast bullet is best.

Fore example; many times with a 240 - 250 gr PB'd cast bullet over top end magnum loads with Blue Dot, 2400 or H110/296 will shoot quite well in the revolver but only so so or even poorly in a 20 - 24" barreled rifle.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

My advice is listen to what Larry said.

Gear

[gwpercle]

Newbie,
Start out with air cooled , air cooled wheel weights can cover a lot of needs. They usually work fine in 44 mag. pistol ammo. Rifle ammo depends...type of rifling in that marlin and how hot you push them. Only way to tell is to shoot them in your guns and see what happens.
If you do decide to water quench be aware of the fact that hardened bullets do not size down easily ( reports of damage to lubri-sizers all over this site ) and sizing down cold works and softens the surface back to where you started with air cooled. You will have to shoot them the diameter they drop from the mould.
Check the diameter of your cast boolits, sometimes they vary from whats on the box. If they cast to .429 or .430 you are in good shape and they will only need to be lubed.
Try not to get overwhelmed by all of the variables in reloading and try to keep things as simple as you can till you've learned the basics. Lots of good people here to help you.

Good Luck...gary

[beagle]

Good advice. I like my bullets softer and at one time I was a real hardness freak but have since learned better.

Air cool by all means at your stage of the casting game and you'll get good shooting bullets.

After you start getting good bullets and want to branch out into the more exotic aspects of casting such as water quenching, heat treating and super alloying, you'll have the basics and won't get discouraged.

Water quenching is messy no matter how you look at it and you don't need that added burden to start with.

For normal paper and can punching, I've never seen the need for it anyway./beagle


+1 on the air cool.

Suggest you add 1 - 2% tin to the WWs and might even add 30 - 50% pure lead to that to stretch out the WWs.

Also for that plain based bullet to be used in rifle and revolver with one load(?) I suggest you develop the load in the rifle for accuracy. Many times a magnum load developed in a revovler is not that accurate in the rifle with plain based cast bullets. Conversely, accurate loads developed in the rifle (staying within handgun loads) ith plain based cast bullets are most often accurate in the revolver.

Depending on the load a harder plain base cast bullet sometimes works ok in both with a top end load developed in the revolver with some powders if the rifle dowsn't push them too fast. If you want best accuracy with a top end magnum revovler load that shoots good in the rifle to then a GC'd cast bullet is best.

Fore example; many times with a 240 - 250 gr PB'd cast bullet over top end magnum loads with Blue Dot, 2400 or H110/296 will shoot quite well in the revolver but only so so or even poorly in a 20 - 24" barreled rifle.

Larry Gibson

[x101airborne]

For straight ww's, absolutely stay with air cooled. Be sure to add about 2% tin and worry more about mold temp, fillout, and consistency. And not that you have to be, but really be honest and open with yourself as far as your technique goes. Your boolits will tell the tale. Mistakes are easily made, and remelted!

Congrats on joining. the journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step.

[lbaize3]

You have gotten some excellent advice above.... I also suggest you read the following, if you have not already done so.

From Ingot to Target:
A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[Wayne Smith]

If you do decide to water quench be aware of the fact that hardened bullets do not size down easily ( reports of damage to lubri-sizers all over this site ) and sizing down cold works and softens the surface back to where you started with air cooled. You will have to shoot them the diameter they drop from the mould.


NO and NO! Water dropped boolits slowly harden over several weeks. Yes, the above is true if you wait a couple weeks to a month to size/lube. If you size/lube as soon as you cast, within those first few days, you have no problem sizing them and you have very little effect on how much they eventually harden. Just don't wait.

As far as water dropping or not, not necessary unless you cut your ww's to 50/50 ww/Pb and want to push them. Then you want a gas check (gc) mold and you might want to water drop the softer alloy. If you cut 50/50 and keep to reasonable velocities you have no problem air dropping a plain based boolit and shooting it.

Fit is king, as long as your boolits fit you are good to go either way. Water dropping is easy enough that you might want to play with it and see if your gun likes them harder.

[Char-Gar]

I will throw in with Larry and Gear on this one. I am not a water dropper, and if I need to temper wheel weight or any other alloy (which is close to never), I will oven temper.

[JeffinNZ]

The older I get the softer my boolits are becoming. Let's hope that is not a trend for other forms of recreation also.... When I first started casting I used to think that all boolits had to be hard and wasted a lot of linotype. As the boys have said, air cool to begin and test.

[Boerrancher]

I shoot a 50/50 alloy and air cool everything I drop. This is not a hard boolit but a tough one. I have no issues at pushing it to 2400 fps in my 30 cals with a gas check, and 1600 fps with plain base boolits. WW are a great place to start and with light to moderate loads, If you size them properly and use a good lube there will be no problems with accuracy, or leading.

Best wishes,

Joe

[btroj]

I tend to water drop everything. Not so much for hardness but rather out of habit.

I will say that most of the bullets I cast are from alloys that test around 12 bhn when air cooled and about 16 to 18 water dropped. I certainly don't call then overly hard. These are bullets that will deform on impact with the berm at 100 yards.

To me this is a question of what fits your style more than anything else. I don't need to water drop, I just do it to keep from having a large pile of hot bullets right next to me. It is what I have done for many, many years so I just continue. Can't say the additional hardness really matters much to me.

[PacMan]

I am sort of where btroj is in that i water drop most everything and then anneal if i want a softer bullet.
I shoot mostly straight WWs but some 50/50 clipon/stickon.

For me it is quicker to water drop than to try and drop on a towl or pile of bullets with out damaging them.

[OkieOutlaw]

Thank you all for your excellent advise. I have already cast a few test bullets a week or so ago. I was smelting some wheelweights and had just recieved the mold in the mail and just couldn't wait to see for myself how it worked and what size and weight it would throw, Bullets were consistantly 250-255 grains on my RCBS 5-10 scale and the caliper read .429.430
I know from experience that my rifle like them to be at least.430 up to about .432. The pistol is not as picky though. I lapped the mold as per directions found here and judging from one of the previously cast bullets I think I opened it up maybe to .430/.431 but have not had the chance to try it yet. The day I cast them I was very cool and I had problems keeping temp right due to the cold and wind on the propane gas grill I was using. Hence for the ordering of the Lyman Big Dipper pot for better control and less worry about other things. Thanks again guys. Keep the suggestions coming as I am long time reloader but just getting started in this new hobby.

[canyon-ghost]

I've water dropped a few high velocity 7mm bullets but, that's the only ones. I shoot air cooled cast in a 41 magnum New Model Blackhawk and 44 Special Flattop. Water dropping is dangerous, when one drop hits the hot lead, pop!

Hot Lead+ water droplet X 1700 volume = Pop!

It's unneccessary to a point. Wheelweight has a degree of antimony so, has a small degree of hardness all on it's own. You'll find with your own lead pot and molds that an afternoon is a good 500 or more bullets. I think that's turned more than one couch potato into a shooter over the years.

When all else fails, stop messin' around and shoot it!

Good Luck,
Ron

[fredj338]

I will add it depends on the use intended. IF you want max effort loads w/ H110, then WD MAY work better for you. I find ac ww work fine in my 44mags for most vel needs, maybe 75% of max.

[runfiverun]

i am positive that you will need to work on both guns independantly.
what larry said about a rifle load working in a revolver is true.
however many times a marlin will want something that might not chamber in a revolver.
and viceversa.
i mainly shoot 92's for leverguns and they dote on lyman rnfp's.
most of my revolvers will shoot the same rounds good nuff.
however my browning 92 [44 mag] will not feed a lyman [429667] rnfp [unless i run it through my swage die and shorten and reform the nose then add a rolled canellure to it] as they are too long. nor the 429421 which my lsi 92 will feed [after i modified the cartridge lifter slightly]
my 94 trapper will also, it however likes the boolits a bit larger than the 429667 will pour with plain ww's but i can get enough with a 4/6/90 alloy to make it happy.

my point here is that sometimes a general load with one boolit is fine, other times things have to be done different for each gun to be happy.
now if i had one mold that poured at 431 with ww's was a rnfp and had an oal of 1.610 or slightly less i could feed all three leverguns [get so-so accuracy from each] and the revolvers also.
heck i'd be happier too. [except for the accuracy part]

[bobthenailer]

I have been water dropping bullets from the mould almost exclusivley for the past 25 years for every handgun & rifle caliber i load for about 15 different ones from 700 to 2000 fps with no problems.

[Wayne Smith]

I have been water dropping bullets from the mould almost exclusivley for the past 25 years for every handgun & rifle caliber i load for about 15 different ones from 700 to 2000 fps with no problems.

Bob, I assume you know that have proved one thing - your boolits fit your guns!

[44man]

I water drop everything, so much easier then moving piles on rags.
My WW's age harden to 22 BHN.
The .44 does not need a soft boolit for hunting. It is more accurate with hard boolits and a Keith did not get good for me until 28 to 30 BHN.
Softer gives me spray and pray with PB, better with a GC but many fliers and tight groups with any boolit if hard.
Yes, I am different and do not argue with what others do but I will stay with water dropped.
A 50-50 alloy really needs oven hardened but works decent dropped in water. This alloy needs a GC for anything near accuracy. It will have some fliers. Three in one hole at 50 yards and two out are common. A PB will never group.
With plain WW's, water dropped I have no problem hitting 1" to 1-1/2" targets at 100 yards with my revolvers and PB boolits. At 50 yards I lay shotgun shells on their sides and shoot into the bases. These were with the .500 JRH.

[MtGun44]

The more experience I get, the more I realize that soft boolits (at least down to ww alloy or
a bit softer) are all you need for the overwhelming majority of pistol loads. Remember that
no rule applies to everything, each gun is a thing unto itself, but start with AC and only
use hardening in response to a particular problem, not as a 'do-all solution'.

+1 on Larry - although I have not personally run into the issues with rifles shooting
handgun PB ammo - just because I haven't gone into that particular area very much, not
that I doubt Larry at all.

Bill

[Aunegl]

I've water dropped my boolits since the early 80's. This technique works for me.

[snuffy]

I tried water dropping ONCE! It made no difference in the hardness of the boolits. The alloy was range lead with some extra tin. Air cooled, the boolits were 12 BHN, water dropped, they were also 12, AND wet!

The amount of hardness cannot be uniform by dropping directly out of the mold. What happens when a boolit hangs up, refusing to drop free? It cools a bit more than one that drops right away. Then what happens to the last boolit that hits the water, compared to the first? has the water heated up? COINTENLY! Water dropping is heat treating. Heat treating requires consistent temps.

I use an old roller paint tray lined with an old cotton terry towel. They tend to roll towards the back when dropped out of the mold. Just a slight lift of the front rolls them all towards the back to allow the next cast to land on the cloth instead of other boolits.

I did oven heat treat once, that worked quite well. Get the boolits near the melting/sluffing temp, then drop them directly into very cold water. Change the water for the next batch. Very consistent hardness as long as the alloy is also consistent.

[btroj]

What happens if it hangs up? What if the water gets warmer? What if I don't worry aout those things and find my bullets seem to shoot fine?

This is an area where the science is frequently out weighed by the habit. This is similar to the arguement about using a stick or a gloved hand to open a sprue plate. We all have certain ways we just do info. Isn't always because of testing, science, or the like, it is usually just because.

I water drop, just because.

[Char-Gar]

If a person really must water drop then size the bullet quickly if using a Lyman or RCBS machine. I water dropped some 452423s once and didn't size them for a month. I tore up the linkage of a good old Lyman 45 machine in the process. This isn's near as big an issue with a pressmounted sizing die like the Lee.

[geargnasher]

Snuffy, if you can't make boolits of consistent hardness by water-quenching, your technique needs a tune-up. If your alloy didn't harden more, it's probably because you checked BHN right after casting, not during the time it took for them to age properly, or you cast so slow that the boolits cooled below the hardening curve by the time they hit the water. The key is to get in a timed groove, cast until you get the mould dropping boolits just right, then start dropping them in the water. Don't stop or change or pause until you're ready to take a break, then cull the first 10-20 pours when you get going again and back into the same groove. Cut the sprue by hand while still soft and go straight away over the bucket with the mould and get those boolits in there PRONTO, while still hot. Having the mould hot enough to make lighly frosted boolits helps.

Gear

[tuckerdog]

don't worry about water dropping, add a little tin cast good boolits size for firearm ' SLUG BORE' and work up loads for accuracy. you will find that the mystery and voodoo of casting is not all that mysterious. Be constient in your process and pay close attn to detail and you will be happy with your results.

[shootinxd]

I water drop so I can size and lube in the same night.Works for me.YMMV

[44man]

I am not or ever have been fussy with exact BHN's from boolit to boolit. It just does not seem to matter that much.
I never weigh boolits and I am sure not going to sort by BHN! :mrgreen:
I never lube or size at any given time either. Mainly because I don't really size much and most boolits just touch the die here and there.
I spread boolits on the rug in the basement and let them dry, then either lube and size or just dump them in a container. If I lube boolits cast 6 months ago they shoot exactly the same.
I lay claim to being the laziest boolit caster and you have to ask me if you want that crown! :drinks:
I will only concede if you learn to look at the pile of boolits and say "the heck with it, I will do them later." [smilie=1:

[Shuz]

Welcome to the forum Okie!
As you can see, your question is kinda like,"Which is a better rig, a Chevy or a Ford"?
Like many on this board, I've found that air cooling ww's with 1 to 2% tin satisfies my needs for both revolvers and rifles in the .44 magnum. That doesn't mean I won't try a Ford someday!

[Lizard333]

Welcome to the forum Okie!
As you can see, your question is kinda like,"Which is a better rig, a Chevy or a Ford"?
Like many on this board, I've found that air cooling ww's with 1 to 2% tin satisfies my needs for both revolvers and rifles in the .44 magnum. That doesn't mean I won't try a Ford someday!

EVERYONE knows that Fords are better than Chevys.

On a serious note I water quench everything. For me it is simply easier. When I cast I tend to do thirty or more pounds of lead at a time. That many boolits on a table freaks me out. Heck, I get burnt enough just off the sprues. Just a convience thing.
I will run through a pot of lead then while reheat more lead, I scoop out the boolets and sort out the "remelts" and dry them off. I put those in on top of the new lead and avoid the tinsel fairy because the bad ones are hot by the time they hit the melted lead.

The tinsel fairy will only visit if your wet lead gets below the surface of the lead.

[Char-Gar]

OkieOutlaw... There you have it, a clear and decisive answer to your question. Glad we could clear that up for you. Happy casting! :-)

[Lizard333]

OkieOutlaw... There you have it, a clear and decisive answer to your question. Glad we could clear that up for you. Happy casting! :-)

How's that saying go?? There is more than one way to skin a cat?? Do what you like. That's all that matters.

[Char-Gar]

Lizard... I was not referencing your post, but the entire thread. In fact I had not read your post when I made the comment. Therefore no need to feel like it was directed at you for it was not.

I have hear that cat skinning saying all of my life. While true in some areas of life, tis not true in all. i.e. you can try and fly by jumping off the top of the house and flapping your arms, or you can use an airplane. One way does not work, and the others does.

When it comes to bullet casting there are a number of posts made (again, not referencing your post or even this thread) that I know are not just alternative approaches, but are indeed BS. This isn't cat skinning, but just plain old fashioned nonsense, not based on experience.

New folks come to this board and ask questions. Most often they are given conflicting responses. Sometimes it is cat skinning and sometimes it is just bovine excrement. It is up to the new person asking the question to wade through the information and strain out the nonsense. That would be difficult if the chap is in the dark to start with.

[Lizard333]

Chat-Gar, no offense taken at all. I thought your comment was indeed a reference to the entire thread. After everyone's response, it became clear as mud. Seem like people do it both ways and all have their own reasons for doing it.

Having just started casting a year ago I know how frustrated one can get. There us a lot of good info, I agree you have to sort through the bull.

[warf73]

Snuffy, if you can't make boolits of consistent hardness by water-quenching, your technique needs a tune-up. If your alloy didn't harden more, it's probably because you checked BHN right after casting, not during the time it took for them to age properly, or you cast so slow that the boolits cooled below the hardening curve by the time they hit the water. The key is to get in a timed groove, cast until you get the mould dropping boolits just right, then start dropping them in the water. Don't stop or change or pause until you're ready to take a break, then cull the first 10-20 pours when you get going again and back into the same groove. Cut the sprue by hand while still soft and go straight away over the bucket with the mould and get those boolits in there PRONTO, while still hot. Having the mould hot enough to make lighly frosted boolits helps.

Gear

+1 on what Gear said.

I water drop 90% of what I cast not because I need the BHN but to make it easier on my process of doing things.

[OkieOutlaw]

Thanks everyone, I cast about 60 or so bullets and tried out both methods, although air cooled the majority. I only water quenched a few so that I could check with calipers and scale to see if the lapping made any difference in weight/diameter. The lapping worked as they went from .429-255 gr. up to .431/260 gr. pretty consistantly as long as I kept the mold hot and quit messing with the pot temp and just left it on max. Most of the ones I kept were frosted almost to a satin finish as they seemed to have more weight and diameter to the shiny ones. Now all I gotta do is make up some test loads and find the right powder charge for my rifle as it is by far the most finicky to load for. Thanks for all the great replies.

[Lizard333]

You might not want to keep your pot on max, as any tin in your melt will oxidize out. I have a lee a I set it about 5-6, your setting may vary. 10 all the time may lead to more problems then help......

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have done both methods. 1,000's of boolits both ways.
Experiment & see what your gun likes.
I still air cool for ML, but ice water drop for center fire pistol & rifle.
The gun will tell you what it likes.:Fire::Fire:

[MikeS]

Well, I always air cool my boolits. I've never yet water dropped a boolit, as I haven't found a need to, and due to the way I have my casting bench setup it would be much more difficult to water drop boolits. One thing that I do, and I don't know if it does anything to the ultimate hardness or softness of my boolits is that I have a small fan (like a manicurists fan) blowing on the pile of boolits from a distance of about 10-12" With that fan running, along with the 2 overheat fans going (I cast in the garage), my boolits tend to cool enough to be handled in about 5 - 10 minutes. I'm casting with a Lyman #2 like alloy, and after a week they're right around 15BHN, which is plenty hard for me. Another thing that I do a bit differently is that I basically open the mould while it's sitting on my bench, After I cut the sprue, I'll take the mould, and tap it against the tabletop of my casting bench, then I'll open the mould as I'm tapping it again on the bench, and watch the boolits usually drop right out at that point. If I get a boolit that's stuck in a cavity I'll leave the mould sitting on the benchtop while I tap the handle hinge bolt with a plastic faced mallet, and that usually drops them right out. I should also mention that the tabletop of my casting bench is made from a 2" thick rubber cutting pad (it's from a die cutting machine used for cutting leather) that's mounted on a 1" thick piece of plywood, so there's very little chance that tapping the mould against it could hurt the mould. If I don't use the little fan (or the overhead ones), then my boolits say hot for quite a while longer, but I don't think that cooling over a 5 minute period is fast enough to effect the hardness of the boolits, but I might be wrong. I might eventually try water dropping the boolits, as well as oven heat treating them, to see what either of those do to my boolit hardness.

I have no problem with people doing whichever method they choose, but the one thing I don't understand is why if somebody wants softer boolits, they would water drop, then anneal them, isn't that doing a bunch of extra steps than are needed? Is it possible to anneal a water dropped boolit softer than just air cooling the boolits would make them?

[milprileb]

I don't see much difference either way for 45acp.

For 9mm: I don't know yet.

For Rifle: I think I will water quench

[imashooter2]

I water drop because it is more convenient. The only time I air cool is for guns that require the softer boolits to prevent leading.

A nice tip I was given for air cooling is to place a folded towel into a soda flat. Drop onto the towel until it gets filled, then pick up the edge, roll the boolits into the bottom of the flat and place the towel back on top of them. Almost as convenient as water dropping...

[MtGun44]

I have heard this 'more convenient' claim lots of times and I just shake my head.

I can't imagine that any thing involving a bucket of water, some sort of an antisplash
rig, fetching wet boolits out of a bucket and drying them could be more convenient
than dropping them onto a couple layers of cloth and putting them in a box an
hour later.

I have tried water dropping, found no benefits for my primary pistol shooting.

If I run into inaccuracy in rifles in the future, I will try it again to see if it helps at
higher pressures and higher velocities. But 'more convenient' just amazes me
at the funny stories folks will tell themselves.

Bill

[milprileb]

Air vs Water Quenched.

This reminds me of two Second Lieutenants in a field problem hotly debating which of their platoons won the fire fight when both were firing blanks.

Interesting human dynamics though !!

[imashooter2]

Well, a lack of imagination is a limitation.

I use a 5 gallon bucket placed on top of an empty bucket for height. There are no "splash guards" or anything else required. I cast 30 pounds or so of alloy without ever touching a towel or pad to clear a drop area. After I'm done I dump the bucket into an old colander and then onto a towel and they dry while I look the pile over for rejects.

I have no issue with guys that want to air cool. Why do the air cool guys have such an issue with water droppers?

[btroj]

Water dropping is convientent, for ME.
I have a small bucket next to me. I use only a few inches of water to start, seems to reduce splashing. I add water as I go.
For a splash guard I use a piece of cardboard to cover the pot. been using the same piece of cardboard for years now, charred a bit but still going strong.
As for wet bullets, a fan dries them quite quickly.

I think it comes down to style more than substance. To argue that one or the other methods better is a pointless discussion. Each can be argued to be "better" yet these arguments are usually falling on deaf ears on the other side.

Use whatever method works for you, I don't really care. I will keep doing what I do because it works well for ME.

[milprileb]

Hot sun works fine in drying bullets for me. I guess you could stick them in oven on a cookie sheet too.

[snuffy]

Snuffy, if you can't make boolits of consistent hardness by water-quenching, your technique needs a tune-up. If your alloy didn't harden more, it's probably because you checked BHN right after casting, not during the time it took for them to age properly, or you cast so slow that the boolits cooled below the hardening curve by the time they hit the water.

Yup, that's exactly what I did. I tested hardness the same day I cast them, both times. I'm aware that air cooled, the hardness increases with age. I thought water dropped, the hardness was immediate. If not so, then do they harden faster than air dropped? If not, then whats the claim-to-fame for water dropping? Is it that the WD boolits end up harder over time?

I may have to re-visit the technique to see if I can get it to work. Now to find a 5 gallon bucket that holds water, and a place to store it when not in use.:groner:

I'm not arguing about preferences, or trying to say it's a worthless method. If the results are better, then I can learn something new. Just like a lot of other things I learned since joining this forum.

[MikeS]

I don't have a problem with others water dropping their boolits, that's their business, I just don't understand why do it, and then anneal them to get a softer boolit. Unless you can get them softer by doing that then they would be by just air cooling them.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.088788,-80.403746

[btroj]

I don't anneal them. If I want softer I use a lower Sb alloy.
It is never a problem if you take into account what the water dropping can dork the BHN. More importantly, I don't own or use a hardness tester. I use an alloy that seems right for the application and make it work.

I think we over think things at times.

[PacMan]

I don't have a problem with others water dropping their boolits, that's their business, I just don't understand why do it, and then anneal them to get a softer boolit. Unless you can get them softer by doing that then they would be by just air cooling them.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.088788,-80.403746

As far as annealing after water dropping. I cast a lot of the same bullets for my 1894s as i do for my revolvers. I water drop everything because it is faster for me and then i can anneal the ones to AC for the guns that require it. Not rocket science stuff just a method.
The other part of the equation is that it takes approx. two weeks for the AC bullets to reach max. hardness. When properly annealed i can have AC hardness within 24 hrs.

Convience casting/water dropping - yeap

[PacMan]

I have heard this 'more convenient' claim lots of times and I just shake my head.

I can't imagine that any thing involving a bucket of water, some sort of an antisplash
rig, fetching wet boolits out of a bucket and drying them could be more convenient
than dropping them onto a couple layers of cloth and putting them in a box an
hour later.

I have tried water dropping, found no benefits for my primary pistol shooting.

If I run into inaccuracy in rifles in the future, I will try it again to see if it helps at
higher pressures and higher velocities. But 'more convenient' just amazes me
at the funny stories folks will tell themselves.

Bill

There is another reason one such as myself might want to WD and then anneal.
Most of my molds cast larger than what is somtimes needed. By water dropping and then testing as the bullets harden i can change the dia. of the bullet by as much as .0015 if desired with the same die for testing. Yes you need a another die,which i have, of max dia. that i use to lube the bullet with if you anneal the bullet.Good way to try a larger bullet.

Yeap sort of convenient.

[MikeS]

Dwight, Ok, I can understand what you're doing with using the same boolit for 2 different guns, one water dropped, the other annealed, but you lost me with your next message about changing the diameter. How do you do that?

[PacMan]

Dwight, Ok, I can understand what you're doing with using the same boolit for 2 different guns, one water dropped, the other annealed, but you lost me with your next message about changing the diameter. How do you do that?

Mike if you take a soft bullet of lets say .360 and run it thru a .358 die it will most likely come out .358. You take the same .360 bullet that has been water dropped and as it hardens and run it thru the same .358 die it will come out a larger size up to a point. It is fairly easy to get .001 diffrence and it you wait long enough you can get up to .0015 is my experience. Depends on alloy to start with and how long you wait.
Dwight

[runfiverun]

it's called spring back.
metal does that..
i use both methods.
air cool and waterdrop.
i water drop into a small galvanized pail [about a galllon in size] set on a stool.
the hardening effect comes from the rapid cooling of the alloy not the water itself.
i have found that the waterdropped alloy takes longer to fully harden than the aircooled does.

[fishin_bum]

When casting WW I air cool everything unless its going to be used in an auto loader then I may add tin and always quench. If I am casting .22 for the mini-14 I then use tin gas checks they seem to keep the lead from vaporizing at higher velocities (rather than copper gas checks)

[emrah]

I water drop everything. Mostly because it's convenient to drop them in water and collect them in the bucket! I cast pure wheel weights (.30-30, .45 ACP, .38 Special) and water drop all of them.

I just want to shoot cheap ammo, so I wouldn't be able to figure out other alloys, adding Tin, percentage this, percentage that, antimony, linotype, etc. All Greek to me. I melt lead. I drop lead into water. I size lead (no problems). I shoot cheap (accurate) ammo. End of story.

Emrah

[snuffy]

Yup, that's exactly what I did. I tested hardness the same day I cast them, both times. I'm aware that air cooled, the hardness increases with age. I thought water dropped, the hardness was immediate. If not so, then do they harden faster than air dropped? If not, then whats the claim-to-fame for water dropping? Is it that the WD boolits end up harder over time?

I may have to re-visit the technique to see if I can get it to work. Now to find a 5 gallon bucket that holds water, and a place to store it when not in use.

I'm not arguing about preferences, or trying to say it's a worthless method. If the results are better, then I can learn something new. Just like a lot of other things I learned since joining this forum.

Well, even an old dog can learn new tricks! I found a pail, put about 6" of cold tap water in it. Around here, the tap water comes out @ about 38 degrees.

I've been having leading problems with 9mm lee 125 grain boolits,(six banger). I figured it would be a good test to see if water dropping would harden them to stop the leading. I also cast some to let them air cool.

When lubing in a RCBS .356 die,(lyman 450), I immediately noticed how difficult it was to size them. This was after 24 hours from casting. Also, they didn't size down as much as the AC boolits, ending up at .3565 as opposed to .356 for the AC's. It's been 2 weeks now, I'm going to do a hardness test to see what difference there is.

Oh, the alloy is range lead that has an AC hardness of 12 BHN. I sometimes add some lead-free solder to help with fillout, but this time I didn't, no problems with fillout.

[mpmarty]

I cast because I enjoy it. I suggest that you don't over-think this to the point of being too worried to have fun. Cast, load and shoot then reflect on your results. Your guns will tell you what they like.

[snuffy]

Wow! I just tested the two methods, air cool and water quench mentioned above.

Air cooled 14.3, just where it should be/was with that alloy. Water quenched 22.7, which should make for a good hardness for 9mm round nose. Needless to say, I'll feast on crow for my earlier comments.

Let that be a lesson for some old sticks-in-the-mud that insist on staggering around in the darkness. Case in point within the last few posts;


I cast because I enjoy it. I suggest that you don't over-think this to the point of being too worried to have fun. Cast, load and shoot then reflect on your results. Your guns will tell you what they like.


I just want to shoot cheap ammo, so I wouldn't be able to figure out other alloys, adding Tin, percentage this, percentage that, antimony, linotype, etc. All Greek to me. I melt lead. I drop lead into water. I size lead (no problems). I shoot cheap (accurate) ammo. End of story.

Emrah

If all you want is something that resembles a boolit, that gets pushed down a bore, then have fun. If the results are what you want/expect, then fine.

I'm an eternal tinkerer, I want to know as much as I can about something I choose to do. Got that from my paw, he never went half way with anything. Whole hog or not at all.

[GT27]

I would like to know what a couple metallurgists opinions would be on this? GT27

[Frank]

Where do you drop an air-cooled boolit? On a towel? They're all soft and putty like, easily dented and take forever to cool. I don't want something like cookies out of the oven. I want a tough, hard bullet ready to handle 50K psi on it's base without deformity and go into the rifling without skid. Just drop them all in a full 5-gallon bucket. The height of 5 gallons allows hardening before it hits the bottom, reducing dents.

[snuffy]

Where do you drop an air-cooled boolit? On a towel? They're all soft and putty like, easily dented and take forever to cool. I don't want something like cookies out of the oven. I want a tough, hard bullet ready to handle 50K psi on it's base without deformity and go into the rifling without skid.

Yes a cotton towel, I've used a "T" shirt also. Unless you're cutting the sprue BEFORE it hardens, the boolits are hard enough to not deform from landing on a doubled terry cloth towel. I never drop them on top of one another, THAT would dent a cold boolit. I use an old paint roller pan, the angle of the pan where you roll out the paint makes a handy platform for the boolits to roll down hill to gather where the "well" is for the paint.

As for taking forever to cool, whats the rush? I don't mess with them til the next day, and I don't have to dive into cold water and let them dry before sizing.

Those little 9mm 124 RN were pretty hard 24 hours later, so 6 inches of water was plenty to harden them. In fact, digging them out of the water after the casting session was painful for my arthritic hands! That water was still very cold! So much for my theory that the water would heat up during casting. BUT I only dunked about 200 boolits. I suspect bigger boolits, and more of them, would heat the water quite a bit.

If I want harder boolits from that range scrap lead, then I know now I can water drop them to get that. I seldom NEED that hard of a boolit, but it's neat to know I can do it now!:holysheep:-):mrgreen:

[Frank]

Water also cleans the bullets of residue. Drying is no fuss. Just dump the water, then dump the batch on a towel. Wrap the towel around them and dry for 20 seconds. They will be fully dry in a few hours.

[blackthorn]

Drill some holes in the bottom of a second bucket that will just fit inside the main bucket (like a colendar). At the end of a casting session just lift the inside bucket out and the water is gone! Add some dish soap to the water and size them while they are still wet, as soon as you take them out. Even water dropped bullets will harden more if left for any length of time before sizing.

[runfiverun]

i use a little one gallon galvanized pail filled about half full.
i dump the water into a little plastic bucket thingy.
then dump the boolits into a shop rag or two on a lawnchair.
the only time the water has ever gotten hot has been when doing 425gr 45-70's, so i threw some snow in the bucket.

[Frank]

blackthorn:

Add some dish soap to the water and size them while they are still wet, as soon as you take them out.
The dreaded dish soap! I quit that idea when the dies and press rusted fast. Now I just use a dab of soft lube to get it sized. Later, it gets wiped off for the lubesizer and harder lube into the grooves.

[MtGun44]

I could have predicted which side Frank would come down on.

Bill

[btroj]

I water drop and size when I get a chance. Might be in a day or two, might be a few months. I am sure at some point it has been a year or more.
Are the bullets harder by then? Yep. I just don't worry oer it.

I think at times we find solutions for problems that don't always exist.

[Frank]

imashooter2:

The only time I air cool is for guns that require the softer boolits to prevent leading.
What guns require softer boolits to prevent leading?

[imashooter2]

imashooter2:

What guns require softer boolits to prevent leading?


Guns as in individual examples of firearms I own, not guns as in all Remchester 7840's.

An example from my experience would be Lee 358-150-1R loaded as cast, lubed with Rooster Jacket in.38 Special brass. Shot from my 5 inch 686+ moon clipped S&W at a 125 power factor for ICORE, water dropped range scrap leaded the whole length of the barrel. Air cooled, no leading. No other change was made.

Could I have changed another variable and eliminated the leading? Maybe, but air cooling was a pretty easy fix.

[Frank]

imashooter2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank
imashooter2:

What guns require softer boolits to prevent leading?

Guns as in individual examples of firearms I own, not guns as in all Remchester 7840's.

An example from my experience would be Lee 358-150-1R loaded as cast, lubed with Rooster Jacket in.38 Special brass. Shot from my 5 inch 686+ moon clipped S&W at a 125 power factor for ICORE, water dropped range scrap leaded the whole length of the barrel. Air cooled, no leading. No other change was made.

Could I have changed another variable and eliminated the leading? Maybe, but air cooling was a pretty easy fix.
How did going softer accomplish this? Was there a fit problem? Did the base expand and seal the barrel?

[MtGun44]

Most guns require softer boolits to prevent leading. Too hard and too small are
the most common cause of leading.

That adding hardness has anything much to do with stopping leading is THE most
prevalent old wives tale.

Bill

[imashooter2]

imashooter2:

How did going softer accomplish this? Was there a fit problem? Did the base expand and seal the barrel?

I assume that it was obturation that fixed the problem, which theoretically shouldn't have happened, but cannot say for certain since measuring fired boolits at the muzzle is a dicey business.

My experience is that casting and cast boolit shooting are as much art as science. There is no magical single process that works every time in every gun.

[Sonnypie]

:lol:
Youz funny!
All youz is funny! :takinWiz:
:lol:

I've done both.
I've shot both.
I see no difference in my shooting.
And shooting is why I bother with any of it. :roll:

Where I do see a difference is that when I water drop, I know I'm not going to burn my fingers when I pick up the bullets.
It's more convenient for me.
When those bullets go Chewwww into that water, they are hard and cool by the time they pile up at the bottom.
I only cast known alloys. Rotometals Lyman #2 for rifle. And Magnum Shot with a taste of tin added for pistol.

So you can harp all day, but in the end you just sound like biddies arguing about how to cook peas. :not listening:
Fix them like you like them. :Bright idea:

I do.
:lol: @ U

[MikeS]

I'm not going to get involved in any arguments for or against water dropping. I just wanted to say, for all those that water drop because they don't want a pile of hot boolits sitting next to them as they cast, if you get a small fan, like a manicurists fan, and have it pointing at the pile of boolits, it will cool the boolits to the point that they can easily be handled within 5 - 10 minutes, or less. That's what I do, and when I'm done with a casting session, I count out the boolits (with fan still blowing on them), and by the time I get to the hot end of the pile, they're usually cool enough. Once in a while if I'm casting a large boolit, or the fan gets slightly off target, the last few boolits will still be hot, but not usually.

[Frank]

Ran out of boolits yesterday. Made some more today.

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc472/BrucknerIsGodsMusic/IMG_0007-1.jpg

[Texantothecore]

I water drop because it is more convenient. The only time I air cool is for guns that require the softer boolits to prevent leading.

A nice tip I was given for air cooling is to place a folded towel into a soda flat. Drop onto the towel until it gets filled, then pick up the edge, roll the boolits into the bottom of the flat and place the towel back on top of them. Almost as convenient as water dropping...

I do nearly the same but use a painting tray. The towel is set up with a small section pulled up to keep the new bullets from the old. When I want to dump the somewhat new cast boolits into the area with the rest of them I just pull on the towel and down they go into the pile. I then pull up on a small section of towel and the resulting wall keeps my new casts from rolling down into the old casts until they are cooled down a bit. It also helps me keep track of the newest cast as the new casts don't roll down into the old ones and are easier to find.

[Frank]

imashooter2:

An example from my experience would be Lee 358-150-1R loaded as cast, lubed with Rooster Jacket in.38 Special brass. Shot from my 5 inch 686+ moon clipped S&W at a 125 power factor for ICORE, water dropped range scrap leaded the whole length of the barrel. Air cooled, no leading. No other change was made.
That's a pretty slow load and poor test. The better test is to push it max velocity with the two methods. And please, shoot it out to 100 yards. Remember, a round ball in a smoothbore at 25 yards will give you benchrest groups.

[imashooter2]

imashooter2:

That's a pretty slow load and poor test. The better test is to push it max velocity with the two methods. And please, shoot it out to 100 yards. Remember, a round ball in a smoothbore at 25 yards will give you benchrest groups.

I don't understand your statement.

Yes, it is a slow load. That's probably why it wanted a softer alloy. And I wasn't conducting a test, I was making a load work in a particular application by changing alloy hardness.

You asked, I answered, do you have a point you are trying to make?

[Frank]

imashooter2:

You asked, I answered, do you have a point you are trying to make?
What's better? I made my point.

[imashooter2]

imashooter2:

What's better? I made my point.

No you didn't. In the specific application being discussed harder is worse. Explain how that makes your point.

[Frank]

imashooter2:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank

What's better? I made my point.
No you didn't. In the specific application being discussed harder is worse. Explain how that makes your point.
The subject started with a Marlin 1894 and a SBH. It evolved to "hard vs soft." You attempted to "prove" soft was better with one test, in your case you fired a slow hard bullet and claimed leading was cured by going soft. By itself, it doesn't happen. If you had a "fit" problem, then a softer bullet may have obturated solving your iddy bitty problem, which you conceded. But it doesn't solve the "hard vs soft" problem, or the original post, what is the best methodology for a Marlin 1894 and a revolver. The lever rifle has a slow twist 1-38" that benefits from a hard bullet because you need to push it fast to stabilize it. Hard is also better in the revolver as explained by 44man in post #21.

[imashooter2]

imashooter2:

The subject started with a Marlin 1894 and a SBH. It evolved to "hard vs soft." You attempted to "prove" soft was better with one test, in your case you fired a slow hard bullet and claimed leading was cured by going soft. By itself, it doesn't happen. If you had a "fit" problem, then a softer bullet may have obturated solving your iddy bitty problem, which you conceded. But it doesn't solve the "hard vs soft" problem, or the original post, what is the best methodology for a Marlin 1894 and a revolver. The lever rifle has a slow twist 1-38" that benefits from a hard bullet because you need to push it fast to stabilize it. Hard is also better in the revolver as explained by 44man in post #21.

Our discussion started in post 71 and neither mentioned nor attempted to address the original question. I did shoot a slow hard bullet that leaded and leading was cured by lowering the bhn of the bullet. By itself, it did happen. That is objective fact. You may well claim, and I might even agree, that some other change may have also stopped the leading. It does not change the fact.

[Frank]

imashooter2:

I did shoot a slow hard bullet that leaded and leading was cured by lowering the bhn of the bullet. By itself, it did happen.
I did shoot a fast soft bullet that leaded and leading was cured by raising the BH of the bullet. By itself, it did happen. It was in fact a slow twist lever action .44.

[imashooter2]

imashooter2:

I did shoot a fast soft bullet that leaded and leading was cured by raising the BH of the bullet. By itself, it did happen. It was in fact a slow twist lever action .44.

A wonderful data point to have. Thank you for it.

[Frank]

So the soft bullet at high velocity leaded. Either it skidded or it obturated causing increased friction and lube breakdown. A GC cured it and it also reduces the above.

[imashooter2]

Really? Well my Aunt had a white cat she called Snowball.

[Frank]

Bullets water dropped on 2/26, fired on 3/1 (Today). Here are the two best loads. The ammo box shows 5 shots for 5 loads. Actually, I tested 6 loads. Rifle primers failed. So I've got 2 loads with the LBT boolit. LBT boolit, LBT lube, Fed215 primers, SR4759 powder.

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc472/BrucknerIsGodsMusic/IMG_0001-1-1-1.jpg