If a first you don't succeed...

[NTD]

My buddy and I shot our first cast boolits on saturday, and well, we have a long way to go.

The boolits are Lee .452 230 gr TL, unsized and tumble lubed with alox. We loaded them 4.9 grains of W231 with a 1.24 OAL. They were shot through my buddy's Sig p220 and my 1911. The pictures are of his Sig barrel, my barrel looked the same but not quite as bad.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/NDanforth83/2012-01-28153841.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/NDanforth83/2012-01-28153804.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/NDanforth83/2012-01-28153810.jpg

The alloy was range scrap. One thing I know was that in our first batch I didn't quite understand how fluxing worked and I think I was skimming off tin on our melt, so maybe these boolits were too soft and possibly not loaded hot enough.

I worked up another batch of boolits, this time making sure I fluxed generously and often and I water quenched. I loaded them to 5.4 grains of W231 and tried two magazines worth through my 1911. Much less leading this time, I only had leading in the first 3/4" of my barrel and it scrubbed out pretty easily.

I have another 100 of the new batch and plan to try them out and see what happens. I'm thinking my next step is to actually slug my barrel. I admit I've been trying to cut corners (not slugging, not sizing etc.) but I was trying to minimize start up costs and hoping I got lucky I guess. Now I'm just trying to eliminate variables to dial this in.

Thoughts? Advice? Tongue lashings? Thanks for any help guys.

Nate

[BulletFactory]

Thats what mine look like.

[sisiphunter]

Slug!!!! U need to kniw size of bore and that will greatly affect leading vs size of boolit....that is one najor factor i have learned in the last few years...im still having issues with cast in 45 acp.....all my othrrs are working well with little to no leading....45 is still workin on me tho.

Id say range scrap may be a little soft...even if you get a little wheel weight and go 50/50 and water drop them...i do that alloy with most of my loads anf sized right they work quite well......generally range scrap is almost pure lead. Great for cutting with but i wouldnt cast it straight other than for muzzleloader and shotty slugs personally. Im sure others will pipe in soon with some info that are much better at this than me...good luck.Matt

[sisiphunter]

And as for start up cost....once you know bore size all you need is a lee sizer to size your boolits right...thise will run ya $25 here in Canada which with 100 casts you have more than made up your cost of 100 jacketed bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

Your alloy was "range scrap" which many times is high on antimony and pretty low on tin. If that's what yours is then even with the proper fluxing and WQing the higher part of the antimony content is still not blended into the alloy. I suggest adding 1-2% tin and even 20-30% lead to lower the antimon %. That will make for a much better ternary alloy with the antimony blending into and becoming part of the alloy solution. The BHN will be a little lower but the alloy will WQ harden and will be much better.

Also suggest sizing the bullets after lubing with LLA. Assuming you are using the LLA straight as per the instructions(?).

Larry Gibson

[popper]

And I thought my barrel got leaded! Slug, size and lube. BF - is that the shaving problem you have problems with? My XD is 1/10 that dirty after 200 of MBC #5. They are .401 and my barrel slugs at .402. Go figure.

[Recluse]

Have both those guns (P220 and 1911's) as well as that TL230RN boolit.

I size mine for .452 and tumble-lube it in 45/45/10 (lube, size, lube, load). I use anywhere from 4.1 on the low end of W231 to 4.7 on the high end. I seat to an OAL of 1.270" with a very slight taper crimp. The low end of the charge (4.1 grains) is some of the most fun shooting I ever do with a .45. Incredible accuracy, no leading, clean shiny barrel. I use that load for shooting bowling pins.

No mention as to how you're seating/crimping the boolits. That can, and often will, swage boolits down in size and result in what your pictures show.

:coffee:

[NTD]

Thanks for the input guys.

I was under the impression that if you size TL boolits you will size the grooves off?

I guess I'm going to look for a source of Tin to add to my lead. Would the Roto metals 1:16 work? In the meantime I need to find a micrometer and get to work slugging my bore and shop for a sizer apparently.

Larry, I am using the Alox straight. Only thing I am doing is warming the bottle in hot water for a few minutes.

[NTD]

Recluse,

I'm seating and crimping in a separate step. I adjusted the taper crimp die just enough to remove the bell on the case.

At 4.9 w231 and 1.24 OAL I thought it was awful soft shooting (cycled fine though) can't imagine the load/oal your using lol.

So it sounds like I might have an alloy and sizing problem...

[runfiverun]

i'd try the waterdropped first and another coat of the alox.
if things improve i'd then up the charge a couple of tenths.
the thing is you don't know where you are so it's hard to see where you are going.
you have a lot of unknowns and need more information.

[Recluse]

At 4.9 w231 and 1.24 OAL I thought it was awful soft shooting (cycled fine though) can't imagine the load/oal your using lol.


Yeah, they're pretty mild. But after shooting a gazillion uber-powered factory loads in the service and in law enforcement, I kind of enjoy softer loads now and then.

My 200SWC loads have more oomph to them than my roundball loads, go figure. :)

On somedays, I call them my "arthritis loads."

:coffee:

[popper]

Try HF for the mic, ~$12, less on sale. Do try recluse's lube, it works. The coating is so thin you could probably size the grooves away and still get plenty of lube. The Lee sizer works great but isn't exactly the correct size. Size a few CB and see if you need to go larger. You can hone out to what ever works for you. You can get the tin from solder or rotometal just sells straight tin.

[NTD]

You guys are awesome, and probably the most noob helpful folks on the net!

Okay, so after slugging and adjusting sizing and going the 45/45/10 lube, should I attempt another cast with the lead I currently have before trying to change up my alloy with more tin? Or do all those changes at once?

[Recluse]

You guys are awesome, and probably the most noob helpful folks on the net!

Okay, so after slugging and adjusting sizing and going the 45/45/10 lube, should I attempt another cast with the lead I currently have before trying to change up my alloy with more tin? Or do all those changes at once?

NORMALLY. . . I like to just change one variable at a time, however, given the leading/etc you're experiencing, you probably have nothing to lose by adding some more tin to your alloy, checking the size of the boolits after casting and especially after seating/crimping.

I'm partial to the 45/45/10 :) but I think for now, sizing and fillout are your first primary concerns.

:coffee:

[R.M.]

If it were me, I'd just air-cool your boolits, but then I'm a believer in soft stuff.

[NTD]

Thanks Recluse, and I just looked at your thread about the 45/45/10...gonna mix me up a batch this week.

@R.M. The batch of bullets that resulted in the leading in the pictures were air cooled.

[NTD]

Don't know if I should have started a new thread or just post here... not sure the general etiquette here in that matter.

I picked up some calipers. I am going to measure some of my loaded rounds to see if I am unintentionally swaging them. I don't have a bullet puller though. Since I don't care if I ruin the bullet can I just use a pair of pliers to pull the bullet? Will this somehow affect the diameter of the base differently than using an inertia bullet puller?

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the input guys.

I was under the impression that if you size TL boolits you will size the grooves off?

Depends on how much you are sizing the TL bullets. If you Lube them before sizing the lube is non compressable (ok, technically they are slightly but not enough during sizing to matter) and keep the lube groove intact.

I guess I'm going to look for a source of Tin to add to my lead. Would the Roto metals 1:16 work? In the meantime I need to find a micrometer and get to work slugging my bore and shop for a sizer apparently.

You can order tin seperately and also pure lead. That would be better because you can add the right amounts of each to what ever alloy you start with, especially WWs or recovered range lead. The tin seems expensive by itself but in reality you don't use that much. I get mine from Tom Ferguson down Arizona way.

Larry, I am using the Alox straight. Only thing I am doing is warming the bottle in hot water for a few minutes.

That's the way to use it.

Larry Gibson

[NTD]

Thanks Larry I really appreciate all the help. I'm really looking forward to my next melt.

Larry, do you know where in Arizona Tom Ferguson is? I'm in Tucson, so if I could save on shipping and give a local some business that'd be great.

[leadman]

If you have to pull the boolits just put them in the sheelholder on the press, no die, If they stick out the top you can grip them with pliers then lower the ram. Not sure if the 45 will be long enough for this.

If you can buy or scrounge up some solder this works great for adding tin to alloy. Might want to check with radiator shops in your area. Some buy pewter from thrift shops.
Rotometals also sells pure tin but it is getting pricey.

Also check the Selling & swapping ads here.

[geargnasher]

I'd just keep posting here, let us know how you progress and keep all the data in one place. I see it as solving a problem, not as discussing just one particular part of it.

Here's the truth on leading: Leading is caused primarily by explosive powder gas leaking around the sides of the boolit and abrading it (gas cutting, we call it) and the resulting lead dust gets smeared into the barrel. Lead sticks to lead, so if any lead sticks it often snowballs the more you shoot. Lead also rubs off and sticks to COPPER FOULING like crazy, and also snowballs quickly. Did you remove ALL traces of copper jacket fouling from your barrels before shooting cast boolits through them? If you didn't, that alone could be your problem. Since most leading caused by gas-cutting is due to boolits that simply don't fit the gun, the thing to do is figure out where the leaks could be first. Obturation is the term for achieving a leakproof boolit/barrel seal that won't lead unless the barrel is copper fouled or has dimensional problems like rust pits or uneven rifling, restriction, bulges, sharp-edged throats, etc.. First rule of achieving obturation is to make sure that the boolit starts life larger than the groove diameter of the barrel, usually one thousandth or so. The next rule is to make sure that the boolit actually remains an interference fit all the way to the muzzle. One of the biggest offenders in automatic pistol calibers is case swage, the effect of the brass case squeezing an otherwise properly sized boolit down until it's a tad smaller than groove diameter, allowing gas-cutting and severe leading. The way to determine if you have this issue is to pull a seated/crimped boolit and measure it. Don't skip this step, you need to know what size the boolits will actually be when they are fired out of the case, and often they might be smaller than the were just before you seated them. I think this is much of your problem, because your water-quenched boolits didn't lead as badly. Going to a "relatively" harder boolit can work better sometimes through several mechanisms, and it's important to know the differences. For one, harder boolits resist case swage, so sometimes going harder makes them FIT better when fired. Another mechanisme is sometimes being a bit harder helps the boolit resist slight skid in the rifling, which can open up trailing edge leaks just enough to gas cut.

Ultimately the challenge is to balance the load and make sure the boolits fit dynamically from case to muzzle exit. Balancing the load means using about the right powder burn rate and charge to work within the operating range of your particular alloy choice and the temper of that alloy, use a compatible lube and primer. Making sure the dynamic fit is right to achieve obturation is a matter of knowing the groove dimension, making boolits a bit larger than that, and checking to make sure that they are still oversized when they exit the case, a simple matter of measuring.

So, if I were you, I'd seat and crimp a dummy round with your air cooled alloy and with your water-quenched alloy to see if there's any difference. If there is, you know you had a fit issue with the soft alloy, and that you might need a bigger expander spud for your cases if you want to use softa alloy in that gun. I'd get all the lead out, then work on copper fouling. I'd also make a batch of Recluse's 45/45/10 just the way he says too, cooking off the solvents and then adding them back in at the end seems counter-intuitive, but it really does make a difference, I know. Just follow the directions. I'd also slug the barrels and measure them, and if you can, make some sort of chamber cast, even if it's just out of paraffin wax or RTV silicone or something to see how sharp the edges of the chambers are. I think the powder and load is fine, although you might reduce the charge a bit and work back up during your continuing testing to see if it makes a difference.

Hope this helps you understand some of the factors involved with leading and how to work toward stopping it,

Gear

[geargnasher]

Oh, by the way, do take the advice to add a bit of lead-free tin solder or some other source of tin to your range scrap, it will make it cast much better and makes the boolits tougher and more flexible, all good things. I don't know if your range scrap is 5% antimony or 2% antimony, it can be anywhere in between and sometimes even less than 2%, so I wouldn't add more than 1.5% tin to your mix. Having too much tin can cause its own problems. Range scrap is usually almost entirely devoid of tin.

Gear

[1Shirt]

Listen to Gearnasher! Always gives good advise and common sense answers to newbee questions.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[x101airborne]

HHHOOOOMMMMMM........... Gear is always right......... HHHOOOOMMMMM...... If not, revert to previous statement............. HHHOOOOMMMMM.......

Im just kidding. That is why we all have taken up the quest. To learn. If shooting soft lead, I usually leave my boolits as cast for pistol, then use the taper crimp die to swage them and the case to fit. I know,,,, I know..... Herresy. But if I didn't do it, I wouldn't say it. No leading and my Kimber and my Colt Gold Cup like the same rounds. Now if shooting something harder like AC WW's, I will size them and lube them, love them and call them George. And I will have a cute bunny rabbit. What? Where am I?

[NTD]

Alrighty

In slugged my barrel, .4509
I measured my as cast bullets .452-.4525
I measured several loaded bullets as low as .448-.450

I think I know why my barrel was leading.:groner:

So I adjusted the seating die as much as I could and seated a few more dummies, still swaging down to at least .450

Is this a case of just way to soft of lead that it can't resist the force of the case on it?

I think I'm going to order a few pounds of this for a source of tin http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/alloy_rotonickel_babbittsp.htm what do you guys think?

Geargnasher,
Thanks for the detailed post. I knew some of what you posted (why fit is important and how it leads a barrel) but I didn't know how to go about fixing it. I didn't do anything specifically to de-copper my barrel because I believed I was starting with a very clean foul free barrel. It was spick and span until the lead lol I always clean after range day, but I imagine it's possible that there is copper fouling. So before I test any more casted I will thoroughly delead and then defoul for copper to eliminate that potentail variable.

But after measuring my pulled seated bullets it seems obvious that my bullets are to small and that is probably my problem, as you suspected. You mentioned this for fixing it "you might need a bigger expander spud" but I don't understand what an expander spud is?

Thanks again for all the help guys.

[geargnasher]

The expander is the tip of the part inside the "expander" die that also provides the bellmouth on the case so you can seat bullets or boolits without collapsing the case or shaving lead. In reality, most expanders are designed to give proper case tension for the smaller, copper-jacketed bullet dimensions. Many expanders don't really expand the case much in diameter at all, and not deep enough either, since the bullets typically loaded in them won't get crushed by the brass anyway. The game with cast boolits is different, and sometimes (though rarely in .45 ACP which has relatively thin, stretchy brass due to low operating pressures) the boolits aren't hard enough to resist the case tension.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the age-hardening properties of lead alloys, but boolits cast antimonial alloys and allowed to air cool usually are quite soft for the first few days and are easily squished if loaded too soon. It takes a couple of weeks for them to become stable, and the hardness can increase significantly in this time. Water quenching does two things, depending on alloy and quench technique: It makes the boolit significantly harder, and speeds up the hardening process to a day or two. I think if you add a pinch of tin to the alloy you have and continue to water-quench the boolits, they'll be more than hard enough for what you need. If the alloy has a significant amount of antimony in it, like 4-5%, quenching will probably make them too hard. Absent a hardness tester, experimentation is fairly easy to do. There's a sticky in the alloys sub-forum regarding basic hardness testing with common pencils, this method is more than good enough for what you're doing. Anything between about 8 and 15 bhn ought to work fine.

One more thing that's working against you is the boolit design. Tumble-lube boolits with microgrooves tend to be very weak in the bands due to comparatively small bearing surface, which makes them easy to squish when seated in tight brass. Harder boolits tend to overcome this to a degree. I wouldn't worry about getting a custom expander spud made just yet.

You might not have any copper fouling at all, but it bears mentioning. If you can see it in the middle of the grooves by pointing the barrel up at some bright sunlight and peering down into it at an angle, you should consider cleaning it with a good ammonia-based solvent before shooting more cast stuff through it.

Gear

[Bullwolf]

I am not sure what brand of dies you are using, but typically after you re-size your pistol brass you expand, bell, or flare, the neck of the brass just a bit to make it easier to start seating a boolit. I tend to load a lot single stage these days, and I tend to flare my cases right after I size, and have primed them. Some folks use a powder through expander type of die.

The case flare die, has a center section, or a spud that will flare the brass to make it easier to seat a boolit or bullet. We often refer to this piece as an expander spud, or an expander plug. The Lyman M step expanding die is also a very popular case flaring tool. The expander spuds in most factory die sets are sometimes too small for use with oversize cast boolits, and expected to be used with harder jacketed bullets. They often do not apply enough flare to the brass for cast boolits, and your cast boolits get swaged down when forced into the brass

I borrowed this image from a post from one of our members, 123.DieselBenz.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=105030
Because it showed pictures of a few expander spuds. The last one pictured on the right is the expander spud for a RCBS .45 die set.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Expanders-1.jpg

Sometimes a larger (oversize) expander, or a more generous case flaring, or belling can keep you from swaging down a cast boolit during seating. If you don't flare the brass enough, it can squeeze down your cast boolit as you have seen. You can purchase different size, or custom expander spuds, a universal case expander, and a few folks here on Cast Boolits will even make you a custom expander spud, to a requested size.

A harder, or tougher boolit will also resist swaging some. Note that a hard boolit is not a requirement for 45acp, just a potential solution for a mistake in proper case preparation in this example.

I have personally swaged down 45acp boolits myself when using the pistol version of the Lee carbide factory crimp die. I now avoid using them for any of my cast boolit loading.

Hope this helps some.


- Bullwolf

[geargnasher]

Thanks Bullwolf, good pic too. The key to having a good expander for cast boolits is having the straight part that expands the body of the case a bit longer than the part of the boolit that is seated in the case, and expands the case to an inside diameter of about two thousandths smaller than your boolit.

I just remembered I have a similar pic to help visualize the ere's a shot of a proper expander for .357 Magnum:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24608&d=1282019955

Gear

[NTD]

Thanks for the info about the expander spud, I guess I should have known what you meant.

So I think I may have fixed my problems. Here is the steps I took.

I thoroughly de-leaded my barrel and then removed the copper fouling, I don't think I had much as I only got a slight blue tint on my swab but it's good to know that variable is gone now.

I ordered some tin from Roto (great people btw, super fast shipping) and some superhard. I added enough tin that if my range scrap had zero it brought me to about 1.35% tin. And I added a small chip of superhard. As soon as I started fluxing I noticed a huge difference in the alloy. It's hard to describe exactly but it was beautiful. It poured amazingly, didn't stick to my mold or my ladle. It only took about 3 pours to lose the wrinkles, when normally we go through probably 15 or so to stop getting wrinkles. We also didn't have to keep the pot running full blast, which we were having to do to get decent fill out. The dropped bullets were amazing and felt harder than previous casts (fingernail), they also dropped from the mold much easier.

I measured the bullets as cast and they looked great, .4525. I lubed them last night and this morning I went through and tweaked everything in my press to make sure my expander,seat and crimp were good. I loaded a couple dummies and then pulled them, no swage[smilie=p:

So I loaded up 16 rds with 5gr of W231 and tested them. Pulled my barrel and this is what it looked like.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/NDanforth83/2012-02-04145007.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/NDanforth83/2012-02-04145027.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/NDanforth83/2012-02-04145043.jpg

At first I thought those deposits on the first 1/2" of the barrel might be leading but they came out with 2 passes of a regular brush. So I'm thinking it might have just been lube or something. What do you guys think?

I'm getting excited, I think I might have it. Thanks to you guys!!!

[geargnasher]

:2_high5:

See how that works? Good job!

As to the fouling at the first of the barrel, often autopistols will deposit powder residue or some minor lead there, might be due to the sharp chamber-to-barrel transition lacking a throat. You might try sizing just a hair smaller, or waiting a couple of weeks for the boolits to finish hardening. Harder is not always better, so don't take that the wrong way, but there is a sort of optimum hardness for every load and yours might be a few bhn points away from ideal yet. Most of the time, even it it leads a tiny bit right there I don't worry about it since it just pushes out with a couple swipes of a bronze brush wrapped in a tuft of bronze wool.

Run a few boxes through the gun, and if the fouling stays consistent and accuracy is where you want it, I think you have arrived.

Gear

[runfiverun]

just waiting a few more days before loading the cast boolits will be enough of a change for now.
air cooled will take a bout 7-10 days to reach near full hardness.

[NTD]

You guys are great, couldn't have done it without you. Loaded up another 50 rounds and went to the range Sunday afternoon. They shot great and I was able to get my barrel clean just swabbing it, no lead, not even the little bit I had with that first 16rds with this batch. I'm thinking runfiverun was right about just waiting a little bit. I loaded the remaining 185 bullets and have an IDPA match this weekend...I think that'll be a good test. I have another 220 sitting on the lube drying rack. Next step is to cook up some of Recluses recipe, then I think I'll be good to go.

With tax returns I'm planning on buying a levergun in .357, of course I'll be casting for it, so I'll be back again with more questions ;)

[geargnasher]

Do try Recluse's recipe, all you need to do to dry them is spread out a cheap trash bag nice and flat, pour the boolits out on it after each lubing, spread them one layer thick and let them dry where they lay. They'll be dry in less than an hour under most any conditions, and often 20 minutes if it's warm and dry in the area. After sizing and drying the second coat, they can be stored in cans, boxes, or whatever. The minimal tackiness means they don't stick together, are easy to handle, and don't gum up your seater and crimp dies.

Gear

[NTD]

No need to stand them on their base? That's nice. I've been standing up all my Alox lubed bullets. I definitely don't have the drying issues that other seem to have with Alox, my bullets are dry but slightly tacky after about an hour and a half, and perfect when left overnight, but 20 minutes would be nice.

[dbarnhart]

hmmm. My results were quite different.

I'm also a pretty new caster. Also using ingotized range lead. I bought a Lee .452 45-230M mold. Used straight Alox as a lube. The only thing different is that I loaded them with 5.5gr of Unique. After 50 rounds the barrel of my Colt Combat Commander was clean as a whistle.

I did add 1% tin to the mix.

[geargnasher]

No need to stand them on their base? That's nice. I've been standing up all my Alox lubed bullets. I definitely don't have the drying issues that other seem to have with Alox, my bullets are dry but slightly tacky after about an hour and a half, and perfect when left overnight, but 20 minutes would be nice.

Nope, just let them lay on their sides. When you do the second coat, do it very quickly because the second coat will tend to dissolve the first one slightly. The very thin, varnish-like coating from the correct amount of lube will be unaffected by laying down. You'll see.

Gear

[NTD]

hmmm. My results were quite different.

I'm also a pretty new caster. Also using ingotized range lead. I bought a Lee .452 45-230M mold. Used straight Alox as a lube. The only thing different is that I loaded them with 5.5gr of Unique. After 50 rounds the barrel of my Colt Combat Commander was clean as a whistle.

I did add 1% tin to the mix.

The only thing different that mattered was your tin buddy:wink: That's what made all the difference in the world. I don't think I had a lick of tin in my alloy. Glad you had good results. I do now as well, thanks to the tin.

Thanks Gear, look forward to giving it a try.