cast zinc bullets

[tanstafl10]

i just saw a listing on ebay for 'zinc bullets'. showed an image as well, but what can i tell from that....

are cast zinc bullets being manufactured? i am always looking to learn and am asking if anyone knows anything about this type of bullet.

any info would be appreciated.

[dakotashooter2]

Was it zinc bullets.....or zinc gas checks for cast bullets? The latter you see every once in a while.

[tanstafl10]

the way i saw it, it was a zinc bullet.

i have since found National BulletCo. has a line of zinc bullets, but they are naturally vague in how they do it. (http://www.nationalbullet.com/index.php?name=Pistol_Bullets)

also found another source indicating; 'lead deposits can be removed from the bore but zinc deposits cannot'

just curious about this

[3sixbits]

Where on that link does it say there bullets are zink? I looked and read the z-bullet and saw no claim the bullets were zink.

[Harry O]

One of my old Handloaders Digest had an article on casting bullets out of pure zinc. There were several reasons. From memory, they were harder than any lead alloy so could be cast and used like jacketed bullets. They were lighter so you could get more velocity. They were harder to cast, but with proper equipment (a higher temperature melting pot and iron or steel moulds), it was not a major problem. I do remember that the bullet had to be cast the correct size, though. They had not come up with a lubrisizer that would work. Thats about all I can remember.

If anyone is interested, I can dig it out.

[jhalcott]

I tried these while attempting 3000 FPS loads using cast bullets. It required HOT molds and Large amounts of molten zinc to increase casting pressure. The easiest method was paper patching slightly smaller bullets. The are HARD, and not always accurate. Impossible to tell wether a reduced load will hit near the target or not. Trying to run them thru a lubri sizer is futile,. Resulting in a broken arm more often than not. Fouling needs special equipment ,similar to the electric Bore Clean, to remove. But if we do not try these things we don't learn.!

[tanstafl10]

3sixbits
that's what i am asking. the connection w/ zinc is implied and b/c it does not say specificly ... it is a bit confusing So... i asked my question.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180093574285&rd=1&rd=1

try this one if you doubt ... what do you think?

Harry O ,

that may explain why noone casts them.... interesting


jhalcott ,
again,..... interesting!! Thanks for the info that is what I am trying to learn.

my interest stems from the comments on this board that lead will be 'no longer available' in a few short years. Sinterfire (powdered Cu w/ Sn then sintered) is just up the road from me and I shoot with a guy who was in on their development. Nice frangible bullet to replace lead ... toxic lead. But it turns out the "lead substitute" bullets (tungsten cored, too) have their own problems.

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/btw2004/articles/1101vargas.pdf for an article on "lead substitute" bullets compared to lead. Although dated 04, it is the most recent update on where we stand that I have found.

I needed something to balance (confirm or dispute) my friend's opinion that "lead is on its way out". His prediction saddened me considering that I am only a year into this boolit casting thing (and loving every minute of it).

Just trying to lear a little!

someone once said; "Learn as though you are going to live forever. Live as though you are going to die tomorrow."

Good advice. Thanks guys.

[beagle]

The NRA ran some experiments during WWII using zinc instead of lead for rifle bullets when lead was scarce.

There's an article in the old NRA Cast Bullet Manuel if you can find one. Supposedly, zinc worked fairly well for rifle bullets. Harder, lighter and no leading.

Is it worth it except to know? I'd like to see someone really wring that out and tell what the advantages and disadvantages are./beagle

[Harry O]

Dug it out. It is the 12th Edition of Handloader's Digest. The article is "Shooting Zinc in Big Bores". He had .45 moulds that he used in the 45-70 and a .458 Magnum. In addition to the things I mentioned above, it says:
1) Velocities, and trajectories are radically different from lead or jacketed bullets. Re-zeroing is needed. The weight is 62% that of a lead bullet the same size.
2) Sizes should be the groove diameter to 0.001" smaller. NEVER larger. Again, they were unable to size them except by lathe-turning.
3) Lubrication was not necessary (like jacketed).
4) A gascheck was not necessary.
5) DO NOT mix loading equipment. Use either zinc or lead, don't switch from one to another. If a bottom pour pot is used, it must run a lot hotter than lead ones and must have a larger outlet.
6) Water quenching is not necessary.
7) DO NOT HUNT with zinc bullets. Because of the light weight, they do not penetrate well. (Practice? Paper punching?)
8) Veral Smith made the moulds for this guy. They were his special iron, with a 50% larger sprue plate hole, and bevel base. It was a single cavity mould. He did not think that a double cavity would work.
9) Because of the lighter weight bullets, faster powders are usually needed.
10) Accuracy was sometimes good (1-1/4 MOA), but sometimes difficult to obtain. Crimping hurt accuracy. Neck tension was critical. Proper fillout of the mould was VERY important. Interestingly, only one of the bullets he has pictured has not lube grooves.
11) There is loading data in the article.

[MLR]

I seem to recall many years ago seeing lead bullets that had a zinc washer on the base. Anyone else remember these. They were said to scrub the bore of al lead.

Michael

[3sixbits]

I get a kick out of government propaganda. One day, maybe the American people will learn the truth, the government can only make law for themselves. Not for us. If it was otherwise then why would we say we are a free people. By a show of hands, how many of you think that these constitutions (USA, state) apply to you? If you said yes by your show of hands, then you are the problem, and need a better education. There are just to many sources of lead to ever worry about it! Funny that the zink bullets on e-bay have GC's?

[jhalcott]

MLR those bullets had special molds for them . You inserted a hot "check" in a slot at the base of the bullet closed the mold and poured in the alloy. I saw some for sale recently. Harvey's checks were the name I THINK

[shooter575]

The bullets with the zinc washer were commonly called "Willams bore cleaner" They were issued during the civil war by the north in mid war.I seem to recall they were one per each pack of 10 rounds.look at some of the rellic sites they have dug ones.
Back in the 70s G&A did a piece on them.Author was using them in a 44 mag revolver.They went through every wet phone book he could find and did not deform any.Then he tried shooting into a bullet proof vest.Went through both sides.Folded it in half and also went through.again...same... I think it would go through 8 layers of the old vests.
I allways thought this would be fun to try on steel plate.Poor mans AP.

[floodgate]

MLR:

Those were the "Prot-X-Bore" zinc washer base bullets; Lyman, H&G and probably others made moulds for .38/.357, .44 Spl./Mag, .45 Auto and Auto-Rim in SWC and wadcutter form for Jim Harvey's Lakeville Arms Co. back in the mid-1950's. If you can find a copy of the 1958 Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets (First Edition), there's a short article by Harvey and several of the bullets are pictured in that and the 1973 Second Edition - as well as on Castpics, Research and Data. Jim was undoubtedly inspired by the CW Williams bullets. Zinc is "antagonistic" to lead, so that once a fine film of zinc is laid down in the bore, lead will not stick. BUT, testers found that the zinc washers had to be JUST the right size (just a tad or tad-and-a-half over groove diameter) to work right. There was also a LOT of other work done with zinc, Zamak and "Kirksite" die-casting alloy bullets in the .40's and '50's. Search the forum for "Harvey", "Zinc" etc., etc.; you will find a lot of material from past discussions.

floodgate

[Lloyd Smale]

I played with them a little in the 44 mag and you can cast a decent bullet but ive never got one to shoot well enough to bother with. I figured a guy could have fun with a 250 kieth at about 150 grain out of a 44 mag lever gun but it just never panned out and the work and cleanup afterward is just a pain in the but. Zinc will never be the material that replaces lead for casting. Someones going to have to figure out something different then that.

[Jim]

With regard to the subject of lead becoming unavailable, I'm real interested in seing how they handle that with respect to plumbers having need for it. Pouring lead joints is all but out the window, but fittings are still made for that type of connection and there are still places where the really old engineers still specify it. Also, some municipalities require repairs done with the original connection method.
I can buy 50# "chains" of lead at Ferguson Enterprises for about $50. That's a bit steep, but if I couldn't get it anywhere else, I know I can get it there. They also carry 95/5 solder in 1# rolls. It usually runs $5 to $7 a roll, but it's there and can be had.

Jim

[3sixbits]

Jim: that is cheap for 95/5, cheap source of tin for that kind of money. Spot price of lead has been running about a buck, so they are not out of line for the plumbers lead. Remember 95/5 contains no lead. It's 94.90% tin and 5% antimoney with a trace of As @0.02%. Great buy, really!

[Jim]

CORRECTION TO POST:
I posted that I could get 50# chains of lead for about $50. WRONG! The chains are 25# @ about $50.

My mistake,
Jim

[BAGTIC]

The following supplier has cast zinc pistol/revolver bullets. At one time they were available through Dillon but no longer. Loading data is provided with bullets.

This information is from March 2005.

Yes, I still have the ZEE bullets in stock. I sell direct.
ITEM 500 PCS. 1,000 PCS.
9mm 79 GR. HOLLOW PT. 27.90 51.95
.38/.357 ZSWC 97 GR. 24.95 46.40
.45ACP ZRNFP 142 GR. 28.95 53.85

FOB; CHICAGO, IL
CHECK OR VISA/MC
WE SHIP UPS PREPAID AND ADD TO CHARGES

THANK YOU

DON GUTOWSKI gutowskido@aol.com
708-456-6922
4556 N. OTTAWA AVE.
NORRIDGE, IL 60706

[Orygun]

I played with them a little in the 44 mag and you can cast a decent bullet but ive never got one to shoot well enough to bother with. I figured a guy could have fun with a 250 kieth at about 150 grain out of a 44 mag lever gun but it just never panned out and the work and cleanup afterward is just a pain in the but. Zinc will never be the material that replaces lead for casting. Someones going to have to figure out something different then that.

Amen, brother!
:castmine:

STOP, STOP, STOP, don't give the greenies any more fodder to do away with lead!

[Bent Ramrod]

Must've been seven or so years ago one of the guys in our gun club had a contact and some literature on zinc bullets. As I recall, they were touting them as safe to fire in indoor pistol ranges where the ever-present danger of airborne lead etc., etc. The zinc bullets were more expensive than either plated cast or jacketed bullets, so there was not a great outpouring of interest among the membership. Can't remember the name of the firm, either.

[Dye]

i just saw a listing on ebay for 'zinc bullets'. showed an image as well, but what can i tell from that....

are cast zinc bullets being manufactured? i am always looking to learn and am asking if anyone knows anything about this type of bullet.

any info would be appreciated.

tanstafl10
They are Zinc bullets, manfactured by Western Alloys Mfg LA California. The box looks like it was made in the early 50's' Brand name is SHUR-FLIGHT Zinc Alloy Bullets. 30 cal-115 gr. They are gas checked and lubed with a black lube.
They weigh 122 gr with checks and lube. They was acid washed after they were cast. The GC. is .310 driving band is .311-.312 and the nose is .309. I have not figured out how they were cast.

Be carefull Dye