Old Winchester - Where can I find....

[Pigwacker]

I have an old Winchester lever rifle 26" octagon , barrel, full length magazine, marked 30 WCF, Serial number 83494, for smokeless powder. Where can I find the model # for it? I think it is a Model 1894. Where can I find a front sight, either the blade or the dovetail and blade? Where can I find the elevator for the rear buckhorn sight?

While I'm at it should I shoot this rifle? If yes, PB or J bullets? I would like to cast some lead and use it on an antelope hunt this year. Any recommendations for a bullet/mold and a load?

I appreciate any thoughts or comments from someone who has been there and done that.

Chris

[runfiverun]

it's either a 94 or a 64 both basixally the same rifle but with some differences.
the 64 usually had a short mag tube and a longer bbl.,some were round some octagon and some half of both.
a rifle that has had parts stripped off needs to be looked over real good by a smith and have the headspace checked.
especially one with low serial numbers.
i'd try numrich gunparts for the sights.
if necessary sights for the rossi can be fitted as they use a larger dovetail arrangement.

[stubshaft]

IIRC - The model # was usually engraved on the flat near the rear sight or on the upper tang.

[Pigwacker]

Runfiverrun, If I understand correctly then, this is a low serial number gun?? I will have a gunsmith check the head space on it. And I'll look up Numrich and see what I can find. Thanks.

Stubshaft, I think I can't find the model number because there is a peep sight mounted on the tang. I will pull that and take a look and see what's under there. Thanks.

Chris

[Boerrancher]

The peep sight on the Tang is the reason the elevator is missing from the rear sight. I would check Gun Parts Corp. (Numrick Arms) for a front site for it. If it has the tang sight you may want to make sure you put it back on as the are so much nicer to use over the regular rifle sights.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Chill Wills]

Pigwacker- Chris

Buckinghams in Tenn still has a good supply of all things "Old Winchester"
He has a thick mountain accent and not young anymore. He can poke around and find what you need most of the time.

I hope this helps, Your rifle sounds great to an old Winchester man.

[wv109323]

Try Wisner's Inc. if you can't find parts other places.

[KirkD]

You have a Winchester Model 1894 and the serial number indicates that it was received in the Winchester warehouse in the year 1900, probably early in March of that year. The caliber is 30-30 (30 WCF is the original designation for the 30-30). For a Winchester of that vintage, the model number will not be stamped on the barrel. It will be on the upper tang.

You can use normal 30-30 ammo. If you want to use cast bullets for antelope, the RCBS 150 grain gas check mould is a good one. You can load 30 grains of IMR 3031 under that 150 grain bullet and get around 2,200 fps with it, maybe a bit faster with a 26" barrel.

Winchesterbob.com will usually have replacement sight parts.

[Dirty30]

That's a keeper you have there. I love the 173 grain gas check cast bullets, however factory loaded 150 ammo shoots great out of mine. I would suggest you try the tang sight before you give up on it. I have those on two of mine and love them. I shoot a lot better with them as well. KirkD was spot on with everything he said. IMR 3031 is the beez knees for loading for the 30-30. Enjoy your rifle, it's a gem!

[725]

+1 for 3031. I like the 311041 mold. Flat meplat for the tube mag and just dandy in that rifle.

[Pigwacker]

Boerrancher - Numrich carries the elevator for the rear sight, but I think I want to stick with just the peep sight. They didn't have any front sights. I have found a website in the past that lists a number of different front sights for the model 1894, but they are all different heights. Any idea how high the front site should be on this model rifle???? Thanks.

Chill Wills - I looked up Buckingham's and will try and give them a call this week to see what they have. Thanks.

wv109323 - Wisner's Inc. carries mostly everything else, but what I'm looking for. But does look like a useful sight if I break springs or sears or lose a screw along the way. Thanks.

[6.5 mike]

Try track of the wolf, they have alot of more period type sights.

[Pigwacker]

6.5 mike - Haven't heard of them, but I'll take a look. Thanks

[Mooseman]

I Must disagree with an above post as I am a Winchester collector.

That Winchester can only be an 1894 and the serial number listed was made in
1897.(March or April) That is an early one and highly desireable if it is in very good shape.
Original sights and elevators are usually pretty spendy and any "Non-Original" replacements will devalue the gun quite a bit.
Value ranges from 750.00 in 10% Original shape to over 5000.00 for 95% shape or better.

Rich

[KirkD]

I Must disagree with an above post as I am a Winchester collector.

That Winchester can only be an 1894 and the serial number listed was made in
1897.(March or April)
Mooseman, I think you got your 1897 date from Madis' data or a published source which used Madis' data, which for the Model 1894 is seriously inaccurate for the Model 1894's. Because of this, Bert Hartman has put together a list of warehouse entry dates for the Model 1894 from the Cody records. The list I have is only a sampling, so I don't have Pigwacker's #83494 on it, but I do see that #79036 was entered into the warehouse on January 8, 1900 and #84801 was entered into the warehouse on March 24, 1900. #85741 was entered April 24, 1900. That suggests that Pigwacker's 83494 was entered in March of that year. In the list that I have, there are no 8xxxx series Model 1894's that were entered prior to 1900. Model 1894's made in 1897 are in the 2xxxx series (20041 to 28202) on my warehouse entry list.

I have a Model 1894 38-55 that, according to Madis, was made in 1896. However, I also have a Cody letter for it which states that my rifle, serial number 74059 was entered into the warehouse November 24th, 1899. Madis (from which most internet dates and published dates come) is badly off on his Model 1894's.

[Pigwacker]

Mooseman,
What would you do with the front sight blade and the elevator missing? Are there OEM blades and elevators available, if so, where can you find them? Are all replacement blades going to devalue the gun by the same amount? I would like to keep it as original as possible, but the blade is gone and I need something to make it shootable. No matter what it is worth, I only paid $250 for it, but it will never, in my lifetime, be sold.

[Pigwacker]

KirkD and Mooseman, you guys are starting to scare me! I'm almost afraid to think about taking it hunting. I do find it amazing, that, after over 100 years, the thing still works. I do find your comments very interesting and I'm sure my dad will as well (it's actually his gun). Thanks!

p.s. KirkD - I'm leaning toward the 150 gr gc boolits and I'll start with IMR 3031.

[oneokie]

I have one even older and I shoot it regularly.

[Mooseman]

Cody Firearms museum lists this gun serial number as made in the beginning of 1898( David Kennedys Data)...I been using Madis data for years as it is apparently what all my books use..hmm.
David Kennedy was working on the data and some errors were apparently made.

Pigwacker ...the fact remains that is an early gun but should be safe to shoot but a safety check by a qualified Winchester Gunsmith is always prudent on the antiques.

Contact Sbowers (S&M Gunsmithing in OK) who is on this forum and maybe he can help you locate those parts..he has some sources for Old Winchester parts.
Rich

[KirkD]

Cody Firearms museum lists this gun serial number as made in the beginning of 1898( David Kennedys Data)...I been using Madis data for years as it is apparently what all my books use..hmm.
David Kennedy was working on the data and some errors were apparently made.
David Kennedy, former curator at Cody, is a careful fellow. I wonder if his data uses the polishing room records? That might account for a date that is earlier than the Warehouse date. For those readers here who may not know this, the naked receiver was serialized in the Polishing room before being sent off for assembly. According to BATF, that is the date that determines whether or not the rifle has antique status. Most frames went into assembly immediately, but there are cases where a frame could sit around for a few years before being assembled. I have a Model 1876 where that happened. So relevant dates for any Winchester are:


Polishing room date (unassembled receiver was serialized)
Date it was received in the warehouse (usually within a day or so of completed assembly)
Shipping date (anywhere from the same day to a year later after entering the warehouse).

The Cody Museum has started issuing letters with all three dates on them. As for me, the most meaningful date is the date it was finished, which is the warehouse date.

With regard to whether one can shoot a rifle so old, let me reassure you, Pigwacker, that you most certainly can. I went hunting this year with a Model 1876 made in 1886. I do a lot of shooting with Winchesters that are over 100 years old. Of course, I do it with care, avoiding bumping them on rocks and trees, etc.

[Dirty30]

Mooseman,
What would you do with the front sight blade and the elevator missing? Are there OEM blades and elevators available, if so, where can you find them? Are all replacement blades going to devalue the gun by the same amount? I would like to keep it as original as possible, but the blade is gone and I need something to make it shootable. No matter what it is worth, I only paid $250 for it, but it will never, in my lifetime, be sold.

There is no greater shame to me than to have a nice old rifle like this and not shoot it. Regarless of the value, that weapon was made to but used. I have a good number of original Winchesters and shoot them all. Some may cringe to hear it, but I also meticulously maintain these rifles, to include replacing broken or missing parts. Buying old Winchesters in poor condition and bringing them back into functional order is a good way for a guy on a budget to own these nice old rifles. In some cases, re-finished, functional rifles are valued higher than non-functioning poor condition rifles. The important thing is to document and save the information on the work that was done and who it was done by. To see what can be done with old rifles look up Doug Turnbull on google. They do amaizing work in his shop.
This should be the front sight you need. That's a good price too.
http://www.chasjonesgunparts.com/catalog/item/563539/211305.htm

[KirkD]

The original front sight for my Model 1894 made in 1899 has a modern reproduction that is here http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=160624&CAT=4072

[Pigwacker]

Original front sight, ordered today -$135
Reproduction elevator, ordered today - $12.50

Garry Fellers Sights & Scopes
3249 Marie Lane
Fort Worth, Texas 76123-2055

Mooseman - Sbowers referred me on to Garry. I ordered the parts via snail mail, paid with a check; no email, no credit cards, 6 weeks to delivery, but good old fashioned service and he has the original front sight not a reproduction, so I was happy about that.

I heard back from Bob's Gun Shop in Arkansas via email they did not have the part.

Thanks for everyone's help!

Chris

[Mooseman]

Good ! Glad you found them...we need pics when it finished .

Rich

[bob208]

are you missing just the blade? if so i have made many from old keys.

[KirkD]

Pigwacker, it sounds like you are doing things up right. There is a real enjoyment and satisfaction from shooting an original old Winchester. I hope everything goes well with the shipping and installation of the sight.

[Pigwacker]

Mooseman - Posting pics, idk, that sounds pretty technical, but maybe, by the time I get the sight installed, i can figure that out.

Bob208 - Truth be told, I fashioned a blade from two dimes soldered together, but it just didn't look respectable.

KirkD - Do you have any ideas on how to loosen up the setscrew on the base so I can pull the old dovetail out?

[oneokie]

David Kennedy, former curator at Cody, is a careful fellow. I wonder if his data uses the polishing room records? That might account for a date that is earlier than the Warehouse date. For those readers here who may not know this, the naked receiver was serialized in the Polishing room before being sent off for assembly. According to BATF, that is the date that determines whether or not the rifle has antique status. Most frames went into assembly immediately, but there are cases where a frame could sit around for a few years before being assembled. I have a Model 1876 where that happened. So relevant dates for any Winchester are:


Polishing room date (unassembled receiver was serialized)
Date it was received in the warehouse (usually within a day or so of completed assembly)
Shipping date (anywhere from the same day to a year later after entering the warehouse).

The Cody Museum has started issuing letters with all three dates on them. As for me, the most meaningful date is the date it was finished, which is the warehouse date.

With regard to whether one can shoot a rifle so old, let me reassure you, Pigwacker, that you most certainly can. I went hunting this year with a Model 1876 made in 1886. I do a lot of shooting with Winchesters that are over 100 years old. Of course, I do it with care, avoiding bumping them on rocks and trees, etc.

Do you have a link to the section of the CFR that has that information spelled out?
I find it strange that the high lighted sentence is almost a polar opposite of what is spelled out in the GCA 1986 as to the date of manufacture.

[Pigwacker]

FYI - I got the old dove tail out today. I had to make my own hollow ground screwdriver to fit the set screw. Of course, i think it helped to have soaked for a week with a penetrating oil. I also got it slugged and it measured .310. I have about 4-5 weeks to go before I receive my front site. Can't wait to get that installed.

Can anyone tell me how to check the headspace or is their a thread on this site or another that covers that subject? Would it be worth my while to do it myself or should I just take it to a gunsmith?

Chris

[Mooseman]

The headspace has to be checked with proper gauges...a Qualified gunsmith can do that in a few minutes if he has the gauges...

Rich

[John Taylor]

FYI - I got the old dove tail out today. I had to make my own hollow ground screwdriver to fit the set screw. Of course, i think it helped to have soaked for a week with a penetrating oil. I also got it slugged and it measured .310. I have about 4-5 weeks to go before I receive my front site. Can't wait to get that installed.

Can anyone tell me how to check the headspace or is their a thread on this site or another that covers that subject? Would it be worth my while to do it myself or should I just take it to a gunsmith?

Chris

The pore mans head space gauge. A new factory cartridge with layers of masking tape built up on the base until you feel a slight drag on closing, or in the case of a lever gun the lever stops just before closing all the way. Peal off the masking tape and measure with a micrometer. Most bolt guns should drag with one layer or not at all, if you can fit two layers you got to much head space. A Winchester 94 will most of the time close all the way with two layers (About .008"). If a Winchester is set up with to little head space it can be hard to open after firing. Most of the 94s that come through the shop will close on a factory no go gauge but that does not mean they are not safe to shoot, just means the primer may back out a little and the brass won't last as long for reloading.
Strange thing on the 30-30, the brass will grip the chamber wall in most cases and not stretch. If there is head space the primer will be sticking out a bit. When you get to higher pressure cartridges the brass will stretch so the base is against the bolt and there will be no primer protrusion, but there may be a bright spot around the brass about 1/4" to 3/8" from the base where the brass is stretched.

[barkerwc4362]

Gary Fellers is a straight up guy. I have purchased three tang sights from him and all were as he described. The Lyman JA for my Marlin 1893 38-55 was new in the box. The two Marbles for my 336s were used, but like new. I would gladly buy from him again.

Bill

[Hang Fire]

Most frames went into assembly immediately, but there are cases where a frame could sit around for a few years before being assembled.

Same was true for the Ballards, where a low S/N frame could go into final production much, much later. This was especially true when Marlin discontinued production of the Ballard, but they used up the old existing parts for putting together several rifles for a few years afterwards.

[Pigwacker]

Gary Fellers is a straight up guy. I have purchased three tang sights from him and all were as he described. The Lyman JA for my Marlin 1893 38-55 was new in the box. The two Marbles for my 336s were used, but like new. I would gladly buy from him again.

Bill

Bill, I could tell he was a straight up guy on the phone. I'm just waiting for my check to clear and for him to get home from vacation. I can't wait to install new front sight.

Chris

[Pigwacker]

The pore mans head space gauge. A new factory cartridge with layers of masking tape built up on the base until you feel a slight drag on closing, or in the case of a lever gun the lever stops just before closing all the way. Peal off the masking tape and measure with a micrometer. Most bolt guns should drag with one layer or not at all, if you can fit two layers you got to much head space. A Winchester 94 will most of the time close all the way with two layers (About .008"). If a Winchester is set up with to little head space it can be hard to open after firing. Most of the 94s that come through the shop will close on a factory no go gauge but that does not mean they are not safe to shoot, just means the primer may back out a little and the brass won't last as long for reloading.
Strange thing on the 30-30, the brass will grip the chamber wall in most cases and not stretch. If there is head space the primer will be sticking out a bit. When you get to higher pressure cartridges the brass will stretch so the base is against the bolt and there will be no primer protrusion, but there may be a bright spot around the brass about 1/4" to 3/8" from the base where the brass is stretched.

John, I'm going to have try this out and see if I'm in the ballpark. I'm going to have to find a new 30-30 round somewhere, everything I have is a reload.

Chris