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whelenshooter
01-28-2012, 05:15 PM
Anybody ever experiment whether or not there is an accuracy difference between loading filler by volume or weight? I use hominy grits as a filler in 35 whelen and 35 remington rifles. I've always loaded by volume by filling the case up to the neck and compressing the load with the bullet. I use a lee scoop and drop it in through a funnel. Due to the nature of grits the weight of a certain volume varies from scoop to scoop. Any benchrest types use cereal fillers (probably not:razz:) and experimented with this? Just curious, thanks.

David

Char-Gar
01-28-2012, 05:36 PM
I expect somebody will be along shortly to tell you why cereal fillers are not a good idea.

odfairfaxsub
01-28-2012, 05:38 PM
it creates a tightly packed situation in bottle necked cartriges in the same sense as not to use em with straight wall cases (like the advise never use a wad card in 45-70s or ect.) reason is a phenomenon called ringing. denting the chamber where you filler forced its way to the neck of the casing at a rate of speed and force great enough to dent the chamber. good question to ask but i leave fillers to shotgun loads.

whelenshooter
01-28-2012, 05:57 PM
I expect somebody will be along shortly to tell you why cereal fillers are not a good idea.

Thanks for the warnings guys. I've been using them for years in these two cartridges and have never had a problem, should have given that caveat in the first post.

Anybody with experience on weighed versus volume?

Thanks. david

caseyboy
01-28-2012, 06:04 PM
Hi David,

I have used COW over dacron over powder. Powder charge, dacron to fill the case from the powder to the base of the neck and then a neck full of COW. This works without the boolit needing a GC. I have found that a scooped volume creates for more accuracy then just filling the neck with COW. Remember the weight of the filler is added to the weight of the boolit. Large weight variances gives me vertical groups.

caseyboy

whelenshooter
01-28-2012, 06:18 PM
"Remember the weight of the filler is added to the weight of the boolit." Right and that's what got me to thinking about this. I don't remember the amount off the top of my head and I'm not at home now to look it up, but at times there was a significant variation in what one scoop of grits weighed versus another scoop. All parts of the corn must not be the same density. :razz:

I'm readying the whelen for CB postal matches this year and am trying to limit variations in my loads. Weighing grits doesn't have an appeal to me, but if it made a difference in accuracy I'd do it. Casting boolits and loading cartridges is fun anyway so I could suffer through it.

David

odfairfaxsub
01-28-2012, 06:22 PM
not that i use em but you could take a powder despenser that you normally get with starter kits that you have to throw the charges and use that as a way to get a nominal volume of cream of wheat or something like that. just a thought

303Guy
01-28-2012, 08:07 PM
My observation is that cereal fillers pose a problem when the shoulder angle is too sharp. Fillers of that nature do more than just add weight to the ejecta, they decrease the case volume too. I suspect some of them add resistance to the powder expansion as the compact and squeeze through the neck, helping to raise pressure to achieve a proper burn with slower powders. Which is the whole idea of using cereal fillers in the firast place, is it not? Several members have reported maekedly improved accuracy with the use of fillers bulk fillers.

Char-Gar
01-29-2012, 12:35 AM
OK.......the issue with organic cereal fillers is they can under the right circumstances attract moisture which can result in:

1. Expansion which will move the bullet forward, or

2. Harden into a cake. In a bottle neck case can push the pressures to the red line.

Like many things, folks can do this for a time until the one round when everything goes to hell in a hand basket

I am all for folks doing what they want to do, once they have the information necessary to make an informed decision.

Depending on the powder type, case capacity amid charge weight fillers can help accuracy by holding the powder against the flash hole in a tight column. Most of us who have been doing this for a time use shot shell buffer or Dacron tufts for the above reason.

whelenshooter
01-29-2012, 12:39 AM
My posting numbers don't show it but I've been hanging around this place for quite awhile. I've been reloading and casting bullets since about 1994. I knew something, but learned a lot more since coming aboard here and at another similar forum and lurking around. I bought a 35 whelen a couple of years ago (Ruger M77 hawkeye) and started casting for it too. 200 grain Lee RN and 265 grain CBE RN with a meplat. Both are plain based. Thing is I wanted to push them up around 2000 fps.

That's where the grits came in. Shoot them with cereal filler and the bore stays clean and the bullets hit where they're aimed. I've shot them up to 2400 fps with no leading, but the accuracy fell apart so I'm back down in the 1800-2000 fps. I've got a lot more work to do and much more to learn.

I've understand the concern about fillers, but with the slight necks of the 35 whelen and 35 rem I don't think it's a big deal. (A 243 might be different.) I started with a moderate load and worked up slowly.

Anyway, that's a little history behind the question and why I'm asking. So...any weighers of fillers because it's more accurate than scooping or running through a powder measure?:-)
Thanks, David

MikeS
01-29-2012, 01:49 AM
There's a company called Precision Reloading (I think that's their name) that makes a filler called PSB that is little plastic balls used as a filler in shot cartridges, that can also be used as a filler in rifle cartridges as well. By using something like this, you will get filler that's uniform in size & weight, and so you should be able to work up a load with a known amount of filler, so when figuring the load you can add the filler weight to the boolit weight, and have that weight stay the same from shot to shot. There are folks here that hate PSB, others love it, and some have no opinion. I don't currently have an opinion on them, as I've never shot any loads using PSB, but I'm going to try some, then I'll have an opinion too. One thing about PSB, being basically a plastic, it's not going to attract moisture, it's not going to harden sitting in the case, and it will be much more uniform than using cereal or grits.

stubshaft
01-29-2012, 01:52 AM
I just used an old RCBS Lil Dandy powder measures with those premeasured rotors to drop COW, Grits or poly shotgun buffer of course it was by volume and not weight although they would be inter-related. I have never had a problem either. The only instances of ringed chambers that i have personally observed were with dacron or Kapok tufts.

whelenshooter
01-29-2012, 01:54 AM
Mike S.: I've seen that talked about but have never tried it. You make a good point. It would be very consistent weight to volume. Have to give that a whirl. Thank you.

Now if my shooting ability will be good enough for it to make any difference whatsoever...:?

whelenshooter
01-29-2012, 02:00 AM
The only instances of ringed chambers that i have personally observed were with dacron or Kapok tufts.

Yes. Usually from what I understand caused by airspace between the boolit base and filler. I've never used such. In my cereal filler loads there's no airspace anywhere.

Thanks, David

PAT303
01-29-2012, 02:27 AM
I've shot thousands of 303 rounds loaded with wheat germ over the powder without any issue's other than a clean bore and good accuracy. Pat

.22-10-45
01-29-2012, 02:30 AM
Hello, Whelenshooter. It's not just the bottleneckec cases that can pose a problem with cereal fillers. Last summer, I was using COW in a Rocky Mountain Cartridge .25-25 Stevens case, over a black-powder charge.... in order to take up some of the excess room.
Now these cases are turned on CNC lathes from brass bar stock..so there are fine reamer marks inside..this probably grabbed onto the COW..some cases were stretched nearly 1/16"! I had one case break off in chamber..not fun with a B.P. fouled gun!
The remaining ctg's. were broken down..and the COW was a solid mass in there. NEVER again!
I now am using Puff-Lon filler, with excellent results.

303Guy
01-29-2012, 05:49 AM
I'm going to try wheat germ. It seems self lubricating and non compacting but compressible. I came accross it while looking for COW. Since Pat303 is using it successfully I feel encouraged to go ahead with it. It seems better than the wheat bran I have been using which is hard to get consistant due to poor flow and irregular settling and get silk in it very rapidly.

Char-Gar
01-29-2012, 12:37 PM
I use PSB as well for the reasons mentioned. I have some Lee dippers I have modified to hold specific volumes of the buffer. There are a couple of caveats that go with its use.

Dont use it with big stick powders so it won't mix with the powder. I stick with ball powders when I use.

Don't use it when powder charges don't take up as least 70 percent of the case capacity.

The PSB adds to the weight of the ejects, so don't add it to the top of an existing load. Work up loads with the buffer in place.

With big stick powders and/or small charges Dacron tufts is the way to go.

Organic material when use as a filler, opens up the risk of moisture absorption and the problems and risks that go along with that.

Wheat germ mixed with moly disulfide is sold as a filler under the brand name Puff-Lon. Itis mostly hype and does not do any better than PSB or Dacron.

Many of us have been playing with fillers for many years and have broken the code on its use.

longbow
01-29-2012, 01:07 PM
Since fillers seem to be a controversial subject, and especially granular fillers, I will try to stay on topic here.

In my experience using granular fillers and primarily COW, I have found that the weight of the filler is generally a pretty small percentage of boolit weight so, any weight errors in the filler should be proportionately small.

Having said that, if you are sorting boolits by weight then the same standard should be applied to the filler weight if you want consistent accuracy.

I guess another consideration is that it seems that use of fillers generally reduces velocity spread and more consistent velocity should produce more consistent accuracy.

I think that the volume reduction resulting from a solid filler use has a more significant effect on pressure and velocity than the weight of the filler. Just my opinion.

If acceptable accuracy can be had by volume measuring powder, I have to think that volume measuring filler would also be acceptable assuming it is free flowing like COW.

As MikeS says, if PSB or other synthetic filler is used then it should be very consistent so volume measuring should give good filler weight consistency.

Warning! Warning! Thread drift...

As for the safety of "solid" fillers like COW, PSB, Pufflon, etc. I have to think that in this litigatious society we live in, Puff-Lon would not be sold if it could lead to damage or destruction of a gun/shooter due to anything related to the filler. Some cereal fillers may or may not pack or absorb moisture but Puff-Lon shares many of their properties.

Also, something that "solid" fillers do that puffy fillers do not do is to ensure that there is 100% loading density which is good for powder ignition/burn and most importantly ensures that there can be no double charge. Light charges with or without puffy fillers cannot do that.

FWIW

Longbow

Char-Gar
01-29-2012, 01:28 PM
PSB is so light that any small variance is dipped volumn does not seem to show on the target. I can get MOA accuracy from rifles capable of giving that level of accuracy. To find any accuracy variable you will to have a rifle better than what I have. There may be a difference but I have not seen it.

Nobade
01-29-2012, 02:24 PM
Now that everybody has the out of their system, I would say weight doesn't really matter. The point is to take up empty space so who cares what it weighs as long as the space is filled?

geargnasher
01-29-2012, 02:56 PM
Hello, Whelenshooter. It's not just the bottleneckec cases that can pose a problem with cereal fillers. Last summer, I was using COW in a Rocky Mountain Cartridge .25-25 Stevens case, over a black-powder charge.... in order to take up some of the excess room.
Now these cases are turned on CNC lathes from brass bar stock..so there are fine reamer marks inside..this probably grabbed onto the COW..some cases were stretched nearly 1/16"! I had one case break off in chamber..not fun with a B.P. fouled gun!
The remaining ctg's. were broken down..and the COW was a solid mass in there. NEVER again!
I now am using Puff-Lon filler, with excellent results.

I hate to pop your bubble, but Puf-Lon is COW with some additives. It IS NOT inert.

Gear

geargnasher
01-29-2012, 03:09 PM
Now that everybody has the out of their system, I would say weight doesn't really matter. The point is to take up empty space so who cares what it weighs as long as the space is filled?

I think he was concerned about inconsistencies in the weight of a given volume of filler affecting accuracy.

My solution would be to use a different filler regardless of the weight issues of grits. Grits makes fine concrete as well as COW. Like we've talked about before, LOCATION means everything when using a cereal filler. Some regions are so dry that it's never a problem to use hygroscopic fillers and even store loaded ammo for years, but other places where the humidity is higher, the stuff hardens in a case in a few days. What's the Latin buzzword? Caveat Emptor. Or Caveat Experimentor. Something.

The inert fillers are consistent in weight/volume provided you pack it the same in the measure or case. The compacting granular fillers are the most difficult to measure consistently IME, but also seem to work the best because they mash into a solid cylinder under pressure and stop gas leaks. A close second are the spherical "ball" poly fillers, and they meter very, very well.

Gear

Nobade
01-29-2012, 07:13 PM
You are right there, Gear. And since our conversation on them I have been using the BPI original buffer for most everything. It seems to have a much greater lubricity and doesn't clump up on sharp shoulders like COW does - seems to flow past the shoulder better.

303Guy
01-30-2012, 04:19 PM
Been looking through my pig gun tests and I'm seeing less boolit base damage with a full charge of slow powder than less powder and filler (aside from powder kernal peaning). In one test I used 30gr W748 with Dacron filler and another without the Dacron. With Dacron riveted the boolit base and without did no damage at all.

On another test I used AR2209/H4350 with an under-boolit card. The first was 40gr with wheat bran and the second was 44gr without filler (100% load density). The 44gr did the least damage. All tests were firing straight down.

One of the W748 tests with wheat bran jammed the case in the chamber by expanding the neck into rust pits yet primer flattening was less than the much more powerful AR2209/H4350 load which did not jam the case. In fact, one case had to be forced in yet came out freely. (I don't size these cases).

It looks to me as though it is not only the filler that becomes the projectile and the boolit an obstruction but the powder column itself is the projectile!

Char-Gar
01-30-2012, 04:29 PM
Been looking through my pig gun tests and I'm seeing less boolit base damage with a full charge of slow powder than less powder and filler (aside from powder kernal peaning). In one test I used 30gr W748 with Dacron filler and another without the Dacron. With Dacron riveted the boolit base and without did no damage at all.



On another test I used AR2209/H4350 with an under-boolit card. The first was 40gr with wheat bran and the second was 44gr without filler. The 44gr did the least damage. All tests were firing straight down.

One of the W748 tests with wheat bran jammed the case in the chamber by expanding the neck into rust pits yet primer flattening was less than the much more powerful AR2209/H4350 load which did not jam the case. In fact, one case had to be forced in yet came out freely. (I don't size these cases).

It looks to me as though it is not only the filler that becomes the projectile and the boolit an obstruction but the powder column itself is the projectile!

The results of my cast bullet shooting took a giant leap forward when I learned what you describe in your first sentence. Fast powder tend to slap the bullet down the barrel and slow powder shove the bullet down the barrel. This base deformation will show up on the target. It is the speed/force with which the gas hits the base, that makes the difference.

This and the importance of bullet fit and how to do that, were the two great ah-ha moments. I learned this from some of the old hands on this board back in the late 90s.

I still use fast powders like 2400 and 4759, but if velocities/pressures get much past 1,700 fps, I switch to a slower powder. In cases with a capacity of over 40 grains, I get great results our of WC872. This super slow powder needs light compression for a good burn, so I use PSB on top of the powder to get the compression. If the powder column is high enough for the bullet to give the compression, I don't use the PSB.

I get all the accuracy the rifle has to give from 2400 and 4759 without any fillers. If I were shooting the medium burning powder with lots of air space left in the case I would use dacron tufts, but I don't. With these powders a tight powder column held against the primer flash hole is what you are looking for.

303Guy
01-30-2012, 04:49 PM
Thanks. What surprized me is that the reduced loads of the same powder with filler did more damage! The W748 is actually expanding the boolit in the neck so violently that it expands the neck into rust pits. That's the beginning of chamber ringing!

Even a change from 40gr with filler to 44grs without make a big difference.

I can't get WC872 here unfortunately (or can I? Mmmm... ) I like the idea of a compressible slow ball powder compressed under a cast boolit. It has to be good!

Char-Gar
01-30-2012, 06:39 PM
WC872 was developed and produced by Winchester for the 20 MM Vulcan round. It is impossible to get enough in a case to get into pressure problems. A magnum primers while not necessary can help most of the time with a clean burn.

I have so so much good luck with it all I use it is, 2400 and 4759.

Thanks for reporting your experience with fillers. I am afraid lots of folks jump on the filler bandwagon with having enough information to make a good decision. They have their place, but not unless your truly need them.