Question on Loverin style boolits

[x101airborne]

Question.....

I have a 30-06 built on a mauser action that has a large neck allowance. Although the grooves are .3083, I have been reading and re-reading some of the stickies and have been hearing a lot about filling the throat and neck more than the groove. With the loverin style boolit, the last band before the gas check is .3156 for my mold wich is pretty FAT, IMO. So, they need to be sized of course not only to hold the gas check on but to get them to fit into my cases. Is the purpose of the loverin design to allow many different sizing options? Is it to allow a taper fit into the start of the throat? If I could load a .3135 boolit with about .001 neck tension in a fired, non resized case I am guessing that is what I should use? I really ought to order a sizer I guess and just try it. What say you?

[stubshaft]

Loverin boolits in general were not tapered, it was the Pope bullets that Guy Loverin copied which usually had a taper to it. The bullet was designed with a lot of grooves to be easily engraved and minimize distortion, hold alot of lube, improve gas seal and were gas checked where Pope bullets were usually plain based. You don't say what the diameter of your throat is.

[Char-Gar]

The 30 caliber Loverin (311466,311467 and 311407) are all good bullets for the 30-06 round, but they have their issues.

The top two bands on a Loverin bullets are different sizes and the rest are all one size. So, it isn't tapered, but it isn't straight either. The larger top two bands (most often they are tapered) were designed to fit barrel throats.

Here are the problems..

1. The specs on the diameter of the bands (base and top 2) are all over the map depending on when he mold was made by Lyman. In all of my 30-06s, the top two bands are to big and the result is the bullet gets seated deeper with much of the body below the case neck which is not a good thing.

This might not be the case in a rifle with a worn throat, but I don't have any of those. I would make up a dummy round without powder and primer and try seating it in your rifle, to learn how far down in the case neck you need to seat the bullet.

I solved my problem, by having Buckshot make me a nose die and I size the top two bands .312 and let them ride on the bore. I get outstanding accuracy this way and the bullet seats far enough out so it's feet are not in the fire.

This worked so well for me, that when I designed the first 311407 Mod. I speced the top two bands .312. This has worked very well and this design has gone through a number of group buys from both Lee and NOE.

2. While the .315 body bands work great for a fat 30 like a 303 Brit, 7.64 Argentine or 7.64 Russian, they do need to be sized to .311 plus or minus .001 for most American 30 caliber rifles.

This does no harm, but it is best to lubricate the grooves first to keep the sizing die from deforming them.

3. There is no need to fill all of these little grooves. I only lube the grooves that are within the case neck and this is all I need.

Bottom line is I am a huge fan of Loverin design bullets, but they do have their quirks. Learn their quirks and these bullets will turn in good groups for you. Ignore them and you won't be a fan of Loverin bullets.

PS..Mumphord's BBQ on Juan Linn there in Victoria is one of my favorite places to eat.

[Char-Gar]

Loverin boolits in general were not tapered, it was the Pope bullets that Guy Loverin copied which usually had a taper to it. The bullet was designed with a lot of grooves to be easily engraved and minimize distortion, hold alot of lube, improve gas seal and were gas checked where Pope bullets were usually plain based. You don't say what the diameter of your throat is.

All of the bullet molds for single shot Schutzen rifles were multi-band and tapered so they could be "breech seated" ahead of the case. Pope spanned the time of the black powder Schutzen rifle and the smaller center fire rounds, but he was essencialy a Schutzen rifle man.

Loverin took the multi-band bullet and perfected it for use in modern 30 caliber and smaller rifles. Most often the top two bands were tapered to fit the throat and the rest of the body bands were of the same size.

[x101airborne]

For the throat measurement, I filled a fired case with WW metal and chambered it. Then I took a brass rod with a soft lead sinker and hit it a couple times with a 3 pound hammer lightly. The measurement I got was .3119. My case seems to hold boolits up to .315 with about .001 to .0015 tension. That is why I traded for this lovern (or whatever kind it is) mold. I was also thinking that this mold would work fairly well in the 7.62x54R, although a little light.

[runfiverun]

it might not even chamber.
loverigns do thier best in longer tapered throats.
when i say fill the throat i mean mimic the throats shape as closely as possible.

if you can seat them without resizing thats worth a try.
anytime you can seat a boolit in a case over and over without sizing and maintain some [.001 or so] neck tension you got a good thing going.
especiall if you have enough neck clearance for the outside of the case.

[Char-Gar]

If you indeed have a .3119 throat, I would not shoot bullets greater than .312. .311 would probably do just dandy.

[Larry Gibson]

My "go to" size for .308 - .309 groove depth barrels is .311 with my Lovern bullet (311466). I have 2 moulds; a DC which drops them at .314 and a 4 cavity "U" mould which drops them right at .311. I conducted several accuracy tests with several .308W and '06s rifles with that bullet sized at .314, .312, .311, .310, .309 and .308. The .311 invariably gives the best accuracy. It also fits most every throat up to the leade.

Larry Gibson

[HangFireW8]

Question.....

I have a 30-06 built on a mauser action that has a large neck allowance. Although the grooves are .3083, I have been reading and re-reading some of the stickies and have been hearing a lot about filling the throat and neck more than the groove.

I think the magic here is, how soon in its travels will the boolit get to the point that it seals the bore... and is that point before debulleting (boolit base leaves case neck), or after?

The sooner the better.

HF

[ofreen]

Loverin designs can work very well in bores that have been neglected. My 32-40 high wall's bore is not very pretty, but the 323470 will do around 2 MOA out of it. All those driving bands and long bearing surface probably helps with alignment.

[1Shirt]

Have to agree with Larry Gibson on .311 for most 30 cal rifles with most cast blts. My exception is my K-31 which wants .309 with some blts, and .310 with others. .309 with Loverin blts, .310 with most others.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[beagle]

Don't think the 311407 was one of Louverin's designs (might be wrong) but it is a Louverin type design and many of us group it with the Louverins including myself./beagle


The 30 caliber Loverin (311466,311467 and 311407) are all good bullets for the 30-06 round, but they have their issues.

The top two bands on a Loverin bullets are different sizes and the rest are all one size. So, it isn't tapered, but it isn't straight either. The larger top two bands (most often they are tapered) were designed to fit barrel throats.

Here are the problems..

1. The specs on the diameter of the bands (base and top 2) are all over the map depending on when he mold was made by Lyman. In all of my 30-06s, the top two bands are to big and the result is the bullet gets seated deeper with much of the body below the case neck which is not a good thing.

This might not be the case in a rifle with a worn throat, but I don't have any of those. I would make up a dummy round without powder and primer and try seating it in your rifle, to learn how far down in the case neck you need to seat the bullet.

I solved my problem, by having Buckshot make me a nose die and I size the top two bands .312 and let them ride on the bore. I get outstanding accuracy this way and the bullet seats far enough out so it's feet are not in the fire.

This worked so well for me, that when I designed the first 311407 Mod. I speced the top two bands .312. This has worked very well and this design has gone through a number of group buys from both Lee and NOE.

2. While the .315 body bands work great for a fat 30 like a 303 Brit, 7.64 Argentine or 7.64 Russian, they do need to be sized to .311 plus or minus .001 for most American 30 caliber rifles.

This does no harm, but it is best to lubricate the grooves first to keep the sizing die from deforming them.

3. There is no need to fill all of these little grooves. I only lube the grooves that are within the case neck and this is all I need.

Bottom line is I am a huge fan of Loverin design bullets, but they do have their quirks. Learn their quirks and these bullets will turn in good groups for you. Ignore them and you won't be a fan of Loverin bullets.

PS..Mumphord's BBQ on Juan Linn there in Victoria is one of my favorite places to eat.

[Char-Gar]

IICC..the original 311407 was a Loverin design. It was nothin more than 311467 with 5 grains taken off the nose to form a flat for use in tubular magazines.

Our version was shortened by one base band as Lyman/Loverin was too long to fit in the Lee blocks.

[beagle]

I have mixed emotions on the .30 Louverins. I have all three (311465, 311466 and 311467) in both solid and HP designs as well as a 311407.

The 311467 shoots well in the .30/06 for me.

The 311465 shoots really well in the .30/06, .30/30 and .30 Carbine (both rifle and Ruger).

I have never had much luck with the 311466. It shoots fair in the .30/06 and that's the best results I have had.

The 311407 shoots well in the .30/06 and is probably one of the better heavy .30 hunting bullets that Lyman produced.

Two bullets that you don't hear much about but may encounter are the RCBS 30-150-SP and the 30-180-SP in the old style. If you encounter these (and they will probably be in cardboard boxes) you will find a clone of the 311466 and 311467 respectively. They will shoot right along with you Lyman designs and give about the same accuracy or maybe a little better.

I tend to use only a couple of grooves lubed and seat out to touch the lands. This leaves exposed grooves and I don't care for that as they tend to pick up trash if not carried in a plastic case.

From my experiences, the 311467s tend to run large so that may be to your advantage.

The Louverins are a good design and as a general thing shoot well but they do have their drawbacks and there are better designs available. Give them a try as variables in guns, shooters and technique vary and they may be exactly what you're looking for./beagle