Powders prone to leading???

[218bee]

I could be wrong but I seem to remember seeing somewhere a "chart" that listed powders that are more prone to leading a barrel than others ....velocity and bullets being equal. Is there such a chart or am I just suffering from old age??

[QuickRick]

If there is such a chart I would love to see it myself.... The only related tidbit I have read is from an old Lyman RM. Under the powder profile section it noted that IMR 4227 (I think, will have to double check) reduced leading when shooting lead bullets. God bless and have a great new year....

Found the reference I alluded to above......guess I don't win any prizes for my memory....in the Hodgdon #22 RM it states that H-4227 reduces leading when shooting lead bullets.

[ku4hx]

In over forty years of casting and loading I've never heard of this but that doesn't mean the phenomenon doesn't exist. I do know that ten of thousands of cast boolits fired using Unique, 2400, Bullseye and other powders may have produced leading, but the usual load tweaks such as better boolit fit and proper lube fixed them all.

A quick search of the internet turned up many hits on the question but no list of leading prone powders. Again, my search was a quick one and I certainly could have missed something.

My experience tells me this is a non problem.

[44man]

I never seen a chart either but yes powder changes to have an affect.
It is where the initial pressure is developed, some while the boolit is still starting to move and others with the powder starting to peak with the boolit down the bore farther.
Soft lead does not take kindly to fast initial thump. Your alloy has just as much to do with it.

[Freischütz]

I've never seen a list of offenders. I have noticed that double base powders like Unique and Red Dot leave more lead particles than single base powders in the gas tube of my H&K P7. I'm using jacketed bullets with an exposed base.

[geargnasher]

Here's a statement that makes no sense: "Powder X causes more leading in my guns than any other powder".

Gear

[geargnasher]

I've never seen a list of offenders. I have noticed that double base powders like Unique and Red Dot leave more lead particles than single base powders in the gas tube of my H&K P7. I'm using jacketed bullets with an exposed base.

And what was the burn rate of the single-base powder relative to Unique and Red Dot?

Gear

[GabbyM]

Any such chart would need to be cartridge specific. Like 9mm with fast powder at max pressure is not easy to make happen. Same fast powder under a 38 Special wad cutter load will work. Would be a wild looking chart with lots of curly lines.

[44man]

Gear makes me laugh! [smilie=l:
He is correct, it is not the powder, it is how and where you use it.

[geargnasher]

I don't know who perpetrated the myth that powder burn rates are fixed quantities, but they obviously didn't have much experience reloading and shooting more than one gun!

Same thing with alloy. A newbie always wants to know what alloy he can us that will stop the leading in his gun. Who started THAT line of hogwash? Why would anyone want to compile lists of these things? [smilie=b:

I'll bet that I can make ANY cast boolit lead in ANY cartridge gun with ANY powder and ANY lube you choose, if I can alter one factor of my choice. Most of the time, the opposite can be accomplished, too, if all the facts of the gun and components are known.

Gear

[btroj]

A true reloader wouldnt want such a chart. He would get too uh satisfaction from solving the problem in his own. He would find a way to make due with the components on hand. Isn't that why we reload in the first place?

War is right, leading can occur with any powder, in any cartridge. Lading isn't just a powder, alloy, cartridge, pressure, velocity, fit thing. Itis the combination of these that makes leading happen. Keep these factors within a certain balance and Lu get happiness.

Stop looking for a panacea and go learn. Find what works for you and you guns. You don't really learn to be a reloader froma chart, a book, or the Internet. Relapsing skill and expertise can only be learned at the bench and the range. Go load, then shoot. Observe what happened. Repeat. A lot! That is how you gain knowledge.

[303Guy]

Could there be any correlation between leading and the graphite coatings on the powder? It is often mentioned that some powders burn 'dirty'. Could that interfere with the boolit lube? Or maybe the powder residue assists the lube? Perhaps some powders require a better lube than others. That's over and above the pressure curve, fit and alloy aspect. I've wondered whether some powders might form a temporary wad behind the boolit at launch.

I'm still trying to understand how a powder can erode lead from the exposed base of a jacketed bullet? Could it be that some powders use lead as an inhibitor? That would be significant to know about!

[stubshaft]

I use some old WW680BR which has a graphite coating and is/was considered a dirty powder. I usually shoot it in my K-Hornet and have not gotten any leading even with max loadings.

I have never seen this mythological list of powders.

[44man]

Carbon? I am not a chemist but there seems to be variations depending on what is burning and what else is mixed with carbon.
Soft graphite is a lubricant and most powders just leave soft graphite behind. Some lubes have harsh components added (Alox).
Ash is not all the same, some is abrasive.
If I get lead on a mold top, I strike a wood match, blow it right out and rub off the lead. That is NOT the same carbon. It has all the other abrasive junk added. A pencil lead will never take lead off like the match.
Carbon can mix with anything and change properties.
Just a dirty powder does not mean a thing but a burned lube can rub off lead.
Graphite is a good lube but they make carbon fibers stronger then steel and build airplanes from the stuff.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I immediately dismiss any question that starts "what is the best ____ for a given cartridge."

I used to think there might be such a thing but after hanging out with you guys I realized that there are so many variables and so much area to cover, there is not one best anything for anything.

Agreed some work better than others for certain situations, but that doesn't mean you can duplicate those situations and, what works for me will work for you, cuz it may not!

One thought that comes to mind is the "sun don't shine up the same dogs **** everyday."

That blanket statement also kind of describes reloading in nice general terms.

IN fact it kind of describes everything!

So when you ask "what is best for this," you are essentially asking which dog's **** the sun is favoring today.

almost makes sense huh?

Randy

[runfiverun]

i have seen leading fixed by upping a powder charge.
by swapping to a slower powder.
by switching to a faster powder.
i have seen powder residue help act like lubricant in the bbl.

[MikeS]

Who started THAT line of hogwash?

I would imagine the line of hogwash was started by somebody trying to sell something. Of course you're going to get leading, but if you buy MY powder/lead/whatever you won't have to worry about leading again! The same for velocity, or terminal ballistics, or whatever the person is trying to sell. Of course theirs is the BEST. And sometimes what they're selling is a book about how to do X, without which you'll spend 20 years trying to learn all that's contained within their book.

[BossHoss]

Ah, .....nevermind, all said already, in different forms of the King's English...I'll sit back and watch.

Gear.....right on.

:popcorn:

[303Guy]

Well, it's really about different properties of different powders and how they might makes large or small differences to us.

runfiverun pretty much sums it up when he says;

i have seen leading fixed by upping a powder charge.
by swapping to a slower powder.
by switching to a faster powder.
i have seen powder residue help act like lubricant in the bbl.

(That last bit is what I was wondering about. Loosened rust stops a rusty bolt from seizing with a bit of oil added, as abrasive as it is).

[Lloyd Smale]

44man hit it on the head. Its not the powder but a combo of powder primer alloy and bullet design. Biggest mistake i see some guy doing is say take 45acps. Lots of guys load light for target or comp shooting. they want a mild recoiling load so they look in the book and most are done with faster burning powders. then they figure if there only pushing a bullet 600 fps or so they sure dont need harder lead. So they cast out of a soft alloy. The soft alloy might do fine at those velocitys if the bullet gets a more gentle push out of the barrel but thats not the case with powders that are fast burning. When i cast for my comp guns knowing there going to be shot at lower velocitys with fast powders i cast them out of alloys at least 15bhn. One other thing to look at is primers. A hotter primer will do the same thing as a faster burning powder will. Thats another reason why i like fed primers in my comp loads. There not only easier to ignite properly with a lighter hammer spring but there milder and give the bullet a more gentle start. I have no scientific data to back these claims but its been what has worked well for me for well over 20 years.

[cajun shooter]

I just had to add my 2 cents in and say that I'm with the members who feel these questions are a bunch of bull.
There are too many variables in loading for anyone to make such a list or claim that one powder is better than another for the leading of barrels.
44 Man, I will have to disagree with your statement about soft lead not liking a big first push.
It's done everyday with the Blackpowder crowd and with no leading as the other important things are correct.
As far as the posting about the graphite being a possible cause is also off base. Graphite is a lube for many things such as locks and any spots where metal hits metal.
The one thing it does effect is ignition of the powder. It was added to the powder to make it easier flowing from measures and such but it delays the burn in Black powder as it burns from the outside in. A little slower burn for a powder that flows is not that bad of a trade off if it's kept to standards.

[44man]

Cajun, true about BP. It does not have the initial thump of some fast smokeless powers. It acts as a cushion behind a ball or boolit and takes quite some time and barrel length to burn. It is ideal for soft lead.
Soft boolits are not always guilty of leading and can actually clean it out of a barrel. But it still depends on where and how much pressure hits it.
You can slump it all out of shape and even squirt lead from the gap. Then evil skid can open gas channels along the rifling and lead a bore very badly.
Slump can be so bad, all the GG's can be crushed before the boolit enters the barrel.

[218bee]

Wow..I didnt mean to suggest there is a list that I could look at and scroll to a given cartridge and go across a line to bullet weight and a line to alloy and a line to primer and VIOLA use Rex#2. Maybe I dont know how to explain what Im thinkin sometimes and I type out something without much thought.
I guess even in "GENERAL TERMS" it would be hard to narrow down such a thing as of all the variables.
What I've been seeing in my handguns for example is where I used to use Unique for low velocity loads for plinkin or in older/weaker guns Win 231 seems to be better for me...but I guess I just happened on the right combo of hardness,lube,primer and powder charge..if I tried Unique again with different combinations of above maybe I could work a good load with no leading.
I guess I should apoligize fo my original post/heading as I was not looking for a "magical" list of what should/has to be used.
Sorry for the confusion :coffeecom

[Wayne Smith]

It has long been said that if you ask a Psychologist anything the answer will start ... "Well, it all depends on....." I guess I fit right in here!

Yes, there are way too many variables to simplify, just as with the human being.

[btroj]

218, sounds like you answered your own question.

It is about the balance between all those variables. Nothing else matters outside of that balance.

I never view leading as a failure but rather as a way of knowing what didn't work withing tha balance. How can we learn if everything always works? Failure is a great teacher, makes us work to find what went wrong and why.

[218bee]

I should have stated my question differently.
For example...shooting cast boolits in my Ruger Blackhawk using Unique of various charges I always seemed to get some leading...sometimes very little sometimes rather heavy. The very first time I tried Win 231 all other components being equal I had absolutely no leading.
This made me wonder if some powders are more PRONE to leading than others.
I guess I need to understand the science of faster/slower powders and the effects of initial push on base of bullet and peak velocity better.
I have come to believe bullet "fit" is maybe most important but am still trying to get a handle on the effects of gas/heat/pressure on various alloys at various velocities.
Though I've been reloading for 45yrs I have only been casting for 5-6 so Im still learnin

[Char-Gar]

44man hit it on the head. Its not the powder but a combo of powder primer alloy and bullet design. Biggest mistake i see some guy doing is say take 45acps. Lots of guys load light for target or comp shooting. they want a mild recoiling load so they look in the book and most are done with faster burning powders. then they figure if there only pushing a bullet 600 fps or so they sure dont need harder lead. So they cast out of a soft alloy. The soft alloy might do fine at those velocitys if the bullet gets a more gentle push out of the barrel but thats not the case with powders that are fast burning. When i cast for my comp guns knowing there going to be shot at lower velocitys with fast powders i cast them out of alloys at least 15bhn. One other thing to look at is primers. A hotter primer will do the same thing as a faster burning powder will. Thats another reason why i like fed primers in my comp loads. There not only easier to ignite properly with a lighter hammer spring but there milder and give the bullet a more gentle start. I have no scientific data to back these claims but its been what has worked well for me for well over 20 years.

I will throw in with 44Man,Lloyd and others on this subject. Powders by themselves do not produce leading. It is a combination of all the factors and components that go into a cast bullet load. Such a chart as requested by the OP would be worthless.

[geargnasher]

I should have stated my question differently.
For example...shooting cast boolits in my Ruger Blackhawk using Unique of various charges I always seemed to get some leading...sometimes very little sometimes rather heavy. The very first time I tried Win 231 all other components being equal I had absolutely no leading.
This made me wonder if some powders are more PRONE to leading than others.
I guess I need to understand the science of faster/slower powders and the effects of initial push on base of bullet and peak velocity better.
I have come to believe bullet "fit" is maybe most important but am still trying to get a handle on the effects of gas/heat/pressure on various alloys at various velocities.
Though I've been reloading for 45yrs I have only been casting for 5-6 so Im still learnin

Alright, look. If what happened in your Blackhawk happened to 90% of the pistols it was fired in, how long do you think Alliant would keep selling it?

As for YOUR particular beast, look at what you changed due to the differences between Unique and 231. Mainly burn rate, right? Of course there are flash suppressent coatings on both, more on 231, and the flake shape is different, but we'll probably never know how much or little difference those details make. Let's talk just burn rate in your gun. Leading is caused by failure of the boolit to obturate the bore under pressure. If the boolit doesn't obturate the bore, by definition, hot powder gas is leaking past it. When that happens, the gas erodes the soft lead and the particles cut off the boolit get plated on the bore. So the name of the game is making the boolit seal. In a revolver, a variety of things can go wrong or be wrong to cause loss of obturation at any point, for example when a lube groove is exposed in the cylinder gap just as pressure peaks, and the boolit happens to be smaller than the cylinder throat. Gas will blast around the base band, blow lube and lead dust out the cylinder gap, and leave a leaky base band that overstresses the forward bands as the boolit skids/engraves the rifling. The poor boolit might be so beat up and scarred by the time it finally gets situated in the rifling and zooms up the bore that there's no way it can seal, and by then the pressure has petered out so much that there's no chance of "bumping" to help the obturation any more. But there's still enough pressure to continue to gas-cut the boolit, so it leads the barrel. Now, if you change powder burn rate just a little bit, or switch boolit designs, or load the boolit larger to obturate the cylinder throats, or change alloy hardness so it "bumps" better to obturate each part of the gun through which it passes (NOT the best plan IMO because boolits don't all bump the same when fired), then perhaps you can stop the leading. The whole dynamic is affected when you change powders. Rarely, changing lube can affect leading, but usually most anything will do in a revolver to stop leading, it's long-range accuracy that causes us to choose one over another, and those choices are usually based on targets printed by an individual gun. Changing alloy often has as much effect on leading as does powder, and for much the same reasons.

If you have leading, it's because obturation failed. You need to figure out if it's a problem with the gun dimensionally causing this, or whether one or more components of your load is throwing off the balance. A boolit that doesn't fit the gun statically is a common cause, such as way oversized cylinder throats or boolits with short noses that have a long jump to the cylinder throats. Dynamic fit, the fit of the boolit at any given instant in any part of the gun from case to muzzle as it's being fired, is the real buggar to get right, and requires three things: Proper static fit (it has to fit when you chamber the fixed cartridge), it has to be loaded with components that match its hardness and toughness so as to deliver it through the gun without damaging it to the point that obturation is lost, and the gun itself has to be in proper condition to achieve this (properly sized cylinder throats, smooth forcing cone, no thread choke, even rifling and smooth internal surfaces, etc.). Lots of things to consider, and any one of them can toss the overall balance into the gutter and accuracy suffers, or leading happens.

You can see how powder choice alone can make a difference, but that it has nothing to do with the label on the can, only how its particular characteristics affected the balance of your particular gun and component combination, or methods of assembly.

Gear

[felix]

Yep, all good info for the newbee. ... felix

[Papa smurf]

Powders prone to leading is an old wives tale told to them by old husbands who wanted to buy more powder . Some of us older guys called Unique combustable dirt. Cant tell any difference from the old and the new cleaner burning stuff. When the boolet size or alloy is not correct any powder can take the blame for leading. Good Shooting----------Papa Smurf

[303Guy]

Yep, all good info for the newbee. ... felixA sticky maybe?

Gear's posting sums it up nicely. Perhaps it can be added to Top 10 Cast Boolits tips for 2010

[Forrest r]

I don’t know about any powders being prone to leading but a concoction or 2 that I made & dumb enough to call bullet lube sure could make the top of the list.

[218bee]

Gear...thanks for the detailed explanation.
I now realize even though I wasnt looking for a "magic chart" my original question was way too generalized.