45-70 Load question

[35Whelen]

I have been handloading for my rifles for at least 25 years now. Metallic cartridge with smokeless powders.

Now I have this horrible affliction of casting boolits after I bought my first 45-70 in a Ruger No.1 , and I have acquired all the necessary goodies that go with casting. Moulds for the 45-70, 358 Win, and 35 Whelen.......and I cannot seem to stop buying moulds for them...LOL

My questions are these ....dumb as they may sound

1- I have loaded up some 405 grain flat points using 16.5 grn of Unique with a 1/2 grain puff of Poly fiber filler. I am getting about 1350 fps out of it and recoil is a pleasure to shoot all day......if I am happy with this velocity for hunting, is there any reason to switch powders? Velocity is velocity, right? Doesn't really matter what powder gets you there correct? I am thinking I can get a hockey sock ( sorry, Canadian term...meaning a lot ) load of rounds out of a 1 lb can of Unique

2. 16.5 is noted as max in the Lyman book I have, yet it shows very mild pressures of approx 38,000 CUP Can I go up from there being a Ruger No/1, if say I wanted to step up the velocity to the 1450-1500 fps range, and still be OK. Or are powders such as Unique known for building pressure very quickly?

Thanks for the assist.
Paul

[Wayne Smith]

There are three levels of published loads for the 45-70. You are looking at the Trapdoor and Marlin loads. There is another level above them for the Ruger. How much do you like your shoulder the way it is now?

Any modern loading manual will have these three levels of loading for this cartridge. If you don't have one, get one.

And yes, boolit weight and velocity are what is important, how you got that velocity may relate to how good your vision is for the second shot, but not much else at the level you are using.

Welcome to the addiction, and I do mean addiction!

[35Whelen]

Hi Wayne

Yes I can see it is an addiction. I have taken my hoarding to a new level....LOL

I have the Lyman Cast bullets handbook 3rd edition. That load is from the Ruger #1 and #3 pages. So just wondering about going up a bit and if Unique pressures jump up quickly. I watch for pressure signs on the slower powders I use in my Whelen like IMR 4064, Varget and H414 in my 7mm08 etc.......

[firefly1957]

If it is safe and accurate enough for your purpose go with it . I load a lot more powder than that under the same bullet for about 1200 feet per second not very fast but I got my biggest deer yet with it. RE-7 in a 1889 made Springfield rifle I shoot the bullets pan lubed as cast (hollow base mold) as depth of rifling is .461 the load does shoot well and about same velocity as 55grs. FG black powder. (I am not including the exact load as newer books do not go that low but it is from a Hercules pamphlet).

[Keyston44]

You can do away with the filler, Unique isn't position sensitive at all. I shoot 15 gr of Unique with a 405gr boolit for 1265 fps out of my 18.5" Guide Gun.

Key

[725]

Yeah, skip the filler. Unique doesn't require it. Should be a great hunting load.

[stubshaft]

If it aint broke don't fix it!

You have an accurate pleasant load that you like to shoot. Why change it?

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Your 405 grain at 1350 fps was enough to decimate alot of Buffs over a period of 20 years. There still are no kevlar covered corn crunchers out there so you do not need any concern about not having enough power unless you can get them critters to kindly stand in rank 4 deep and want to try to bowl them all down with that one 405 grainer. I know about a large horse running at top speed that did a full face plant when struck square in the chest at 70 yards with a 405 launched from a 28" Sharps 1874. Bullet made it clean through the grill doors and skipped away across the field.
Mike in Peru

[Mike45]

IMR 4198 is supposed to be good if you want to change powders. 33gr. is I think what i used behind a 350 hndy rn for light recoil. Should be fine in the #1 with a 405 if I am remembering right.

One time i think I was close to blowing up a .303 with 85 gr. xtp behind 4 or so grains of unique. Got them to fire if I held the rifle back and got the powder in the back of the case. So I might think about switching powders.

[303carbine]

I shoot 420 grain cast at 1630 fps with 40 grains of IMR 4198 out of a 45-70 guide gun. Everything I hit with this load falls over on the spot. Some of the smaller critters seperate into a couple of flying pieces that tend to go further than any deer does.:cbpour:
Nothing needs to be tracked, just rounded up.:!:

[Pioneer2]

I imagine she's all over but the gravity thing.................Harold

[Longwood]

I have hunted with everything from a 58 cal muzzle loader to a 220 Swift.
I still believe that the stopping power of a a slower moving, pure lead bullet that will mushroom immensely while imparting ALL of it's energy in the animal, is far superior to a faster hard bullet from the same gun, that only punches a small hole through the critter.

[Larry Gibson]

If it aint broke don't fix it!

You have an accurate pleasant load that you like to shoot. Why change it?

+1.

If you want to up the velocity a tudge to 145- - 1500 then I suggest switching to 4759 with the dacron filler as Unique will build the pressure fast at the top end. However, above what you are now shooting I would suggest a soft cast GC'd bullet of 300 - 400 gr for the 1500 - 1800 fps range with 4759, 4198, 5744, 3031, RL7 or 4895 with the dacron filler. Those require a little more powder (reduces the "hockey sock" amount) but the performance for hunting would be better. As mentioned though the load you have has killed an aweful lot of game. The original similar 45-70 load in the M1873 Springfield made the west safe for the Winchester M73 to win:-D

Larry Gibson

[TXGunNut]

The 45-70 (and 45-90) got me into boolit casting after a quarter-century of wasting my time stuffing J-bullets into rifle cases. I couldn't find a decent boolit to buy but soon discovered I could cast as good as anything available out there, better than most. As you've discovered a a big, heavy boolit doesn't have to get in any hurry to get the job done. I happen to like the trapdoor loads for fun & economy and my hunting boolits seem to do just fine @ about 1700 or so.
Welcome to the affliction! [smilie=s:

[35Whelen]

Thank you guys for all the information and confirmation of such a grand ole caliber. I have three molds now for my rifle 350- 405 and 500 grain flat points. I can hardly wait to get out and hunt with it. I have always been a big fan of big bullets at moderate velocities. The Brits got it right in the Dark Continent.

Looking forward to many years of casting and shooting.

Best regards
Paul

[TXGunNut]

and I cannot seem to stop buying moulds for them...LOL-35Whelen


I feel your pain, Brother. Only been at this a few years and have lost count already. Kinda like the leverguns at the other end of the house, they seem to be reproducing.

[azrednek]

and I cannot seem to stop buying moulds for them...LOL-35Whelen


I feel your pain, Brother. Only been at this a few years and have lost count already. Kinda like the leverguns at the other end of the house, they seem to be reproducing.

Don't worry about the addiction until you start buying molds for guns you haven't acquired yet but hope to someday.

[x101airborne]

Don't worry about the addiction until you start buying molds for guns you haven't acquired yet but hope to someday.

You mean that is a sign of addiction? Im in big trouble.

[HollowPoint]

My username is HollowPoint and I'm a Cast-Aholic.

One of us should come up with a twelve-step program for those here who've hit "Rock-Bottom" with our casting addiction.

Maybe a lead-patch we can stick on our arm under our shirt to help cut down on the craving for a new bullet mold.

I can quit any time I want to! I just don't want to quit just yet. At least not until I've put together my own 45-70-Guvmint to play with.

HollowPoint

[TXGunNut]

Don't worry about the addiction until you start buying molds for guns you haven't acquired yet but hope to someday.



Thanks, I feel a bit better. I still have a few rifles I haven't bought moulds for. Guess that makes me a bit of a slacker in this bunch.

[azrednek]

Guess that makes me a bit of a slacker in this bunch.

Better look out a lynch mob is forming under a big Oak tree.

[TXGunNut]

Better look out a lynch mob is forming under a big Oak tree.


Could get a mite crowded behind that tree. [smilie=l:

[missionary5155]

Thanks, I feel a bit better. I still have a few rifles I haven't bought moulds for. Guess that makes me a bit of a slacker in this bunch.

Good morning
No ... you are in no ways a slacker. Just some others have had a head start.
Mike in Peru

[TXGunNut]

Good morning to you, my friend! I did get a late start in this CB game but I'm catching up as fast as I can. :mrgreen: Plan this year is to take it slow and focus on one rifle at a time and re-visiting the 45-70 is a few steps down the list but it's a fascinating round. Can't wait to dabble with it again.

[35Whelen]

Me too.....just waiting on a 500 grain flatpoint from Tom at Accurate molds. Should be here any day now. Can hardly wait for this snow to disappear so I can get busy casting and shooting.

[RidgerunnerAk]

I've used IMR 3031 exclusively for hunting loads - cast and jacketed - in .45-90 and .45-70 Marlins and vintage Winchester '86's for 33 years. Fills the case nicely and can be used for low or high velocities. Only other powder I've used is H110 for bear loads in a .45-70 and 400gr Barnes SP bullets. At 1886fps they will punch an impressive hole in just about anything from any angle and pulverize anything they encounter in the process.

[Al_sway]

As already mentioned, your velocity level was standard with the .45-70 for many years and was effective on game. If you are happy with the performance, then I would second the comment that 'if if works, don't change it.' Personally I would not use the filler, and you might want to try one batch without it to see if there is any difference.
If you want increased velocity I would not recommend increasing the amount of Unique. The pressure could spike quickly with this type of fast burning powder.
I would recommend, if you are looking for 1400-1600 fps two powder choices that have worked well for me - 2400 and Reloder 7. With 2400 I can easily attain 1400-1500 fps and it is also economical. With Reloder 7 I can get a nice even 1600 fps without any pressure signs and good accuracy. The beauty of both of these powders, in my experience, is that there is no unburned powder granules in the barrel.
With other powders recommended, such as 4198 and 3031, I found a lot of unburned powder in the barrel, and some will always fall back into the chamber or action. Unless, of course, I raise the pressure and start shooting up around 1800 fps, which is too much recoil for me.

[Greg B.]

I also load for the 45-70 and would stick within the limits recomended by reputable loading manuals. They have access to presure testing equipment that that most of us can only dream of. Hodgons has lots of loads on their web site for the 45-70. Good luck.

Greg B.

[bfuller14]

TxGunNut,
My Lyman 4th Edition lists for Ruger #1, and 3 the 405gr
and IMR 4198 as potentially the most accurate load.
Start 40.0 gr. at 1684 fps. and 26,800 cup
and 44.5gr. at 1881 fps. and 38,300 cup as a max load.

Good luck,
Barry

[EDG]

Make sure you develop a process to prevent over charges.

you don't need the filler

SR4759, 5744 and Trail Boss might be good candidates.

[FRJ]

I use 46 gr of IMR 3031 in my Marlin 45/70 with the 405 gr remington bullet. Its more than enough for anything in N/A and about all I want to shoot. Actually the load your shooting will handle anything in N/A and then some. Get yourself a good manual or 2 or go online to the Hodgdens loading center, lots of good info there. FRJ

[35Whelen]

Thanks Guys....all good info. Weather here is just starting to get nice so I should be smelting and casting soon.

[softpoint]

A 405 gr. at 1350 will kill anything you want it to here in the USA, with proper bullet placement and reasonable ranges. The .44 magnum handgun round with a 300 gr. bullet at about 1200 fps has been known to take down our largest animals, and the load you are shooting is quite a bit more than that. If the accuracy level is where you want it, that Unique load will do just fine, and save some bucks on powder. :cbpour:

[twotrees]

He was loading 500 gr boolit ahead of 52 grains of IMR 3031. Each shot out of his #1 was accurate, but after 3 his shoulder started to require attention, of the medical kind.

He knew I shot marlin rifle in 45-70 so he asked what I loaded. My load was also a "Hot" load for a lever gun of 48 gr of IMR 3031. BUT behind a 330 Flat point boolit. That goes about 1700+ feet/second and will get your attention. It also knocks doe deer and hogs, like a beehive round out of a 105MM.

I load my Uberti 30 inch barrel rifle with a duplex load of 4 gr of fast powder and 55 gr of 2f black, behind a Lee 500 gr boolit, it reaches 1000 meters and makes a loud twang on the creedmore buff.

I'm sure it would kill any of my interned targets, just as well as the lighter boolit does, but the boys at the club would accuse me of eating too many hard boiled eggs for breakfast.

1300 FPS is plenty, if you can "dope the drop", when ranges get longer.

Have fun.

[35Whelen]

Thanks Guys.....so at what velocity would I need to start thinking about gas checks on my rounds? I am thinking 1600-1700, or is there indicators that will tell me when they need to be used?

[MT Chambers]

For a serious gun, for serious work I'd consider a slightly heavier gas check bullet for those speeds and beyond, also a wide meplat will add to the affect. For upper end loads i like the mid range powders like RL-7, AA2015, 3031, H-322, H-335, etc....For cream puff loads Trail Boss is good.

[thx997303]

My most used load in my 45-70 marlin is 15 gr unique over a 350 gr ranch dog boolit. Gives me 1300 fps and has never given me a hangfire.

Given a good shooter, that combo will do 1" 3 shot groups.

MY other load is 51 gr h322 under the same boolit. Much more recoil.