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View Full Version : Pure Lead v. Alloy: When to use Which?



VP
06-24-2005, 07:59 PM
I've been away from casting for a few years-- and I do have a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet book somewhere-- but is the rule that we use pure lead where the malleability is needed for expansion of the bullet into the grooves, like for a Minie' bullets, and we use alloy for everything else? How about if you are casting for a 250 year old Brown Bess? I would guess that the original loads were cast with pure lead ... but would wheelweight be a better choice now? I'm thinking that they weren't able to pick up wheelweights so easily back then--
Thanks
VP

1Shirt
06-24-2005, 08:47 PM
Howdy, Used to shoot a lot of RB in front stuffers and recommend ONLY lead as pure and soft as you can get it. If you are shooting an Original Brown Bess, I would put it away or over the matel as an antique, as by shooting an original you are in all probability reducing collectors value. There are a number of replicas out there that are much safet to shoot. Good Luck!
1Shirt

VP
06-24-2005, 08:56 PM
Howdy, Used to shoot a lot of RB in front stuffers and recommend ONLY lead as pure and soft as you can get it. If you are shooting an Original Brown Bess, I would put it away or over the matel as an antique, as by shooting an original you are in all probability reducing collectors value. There are a number of replicas out there that are much safet to shoot. Good Luck!
1Shirt

1Shirt, I do not have a Brown Bess. I don't even think I've ever seen one. What I am trying to find out is when do we use pure lead and when we use alloyed lead?-- And why? I know we use pure lead when we need an undersized bullet to expand to fill the grooves. Let's say I was shooting a reproduction Brown Bess-- should I cast with pure lead, or wheelweights, and why?
Thanks
VP

Junior1942
06-24-2005, 09:36 PM
In my experience, pure lead works fine with black powder or smokeless powder to 1200 fps max. Wheelweight alloy works fine to 1600 fps w/o a gas check. Above 1600 fps, use a gas check.

Willbird
06-24-2005, 09:44 PM
I read all that fancy stuff about round balls for BP needing to be pure lead and such, when I was a teen all we had down celler was Lino, funny thing is those Linotype round balls when loaded with a tight denim patch shot just fine.

Bill

VP
06-24-2005, 10:20 PM
In my experience, pure lead works fine with black powder or smokeless powder to 1200 fps max. Wheelweight alloy works fine to 1600 fps w/o a gas check. Above 1600 fps, use a gas check.
Thank you Junior '42. That makes sense. If I fire pistol, at < 1200 fps, pure lead and wheelweight bullets perform the same? It's only at higher velocities than 1200 fps that I need alloyed lead? If I load for .45 Long Colt, any advantage one way or the other between casting pure lead bullets v. wheelweight bullets?

I was trying to set this all in a time scheme-- the alloyed lead bullets came into use when-- about the time automobiles started going fast enough to require wheel balancing? No, when velocities exceeded 1200 fps, right? Did that happen at the same time? If so when-- early 20th Cent? I guess I need to reread the basic literature--
Thanks
Vern
P.S. My hat is cooler than yours.

floodgate
06-24-2005, 11:32 PM
VP: We've always shot pure lead in my wife's 200-yr. old "India Pattern" Brown Bess, but we finally decided it deserves an honorable retirement. I've always stuck with pure (or, at least plumber's) lead in all ML's - especially with the revolvers, where I bent an original Colt 1960 Army loading lever trying to shear/seat an oversize hard-alloy ball. But the received wisdom on the old "Shooters" BP Board was that wheel-weights are OK for patched balls, and even sometimes for Minie's, provided they are a close fit and you don;'t need much "bump-up". I still stick with lead, though. floodgate

floodgate
06-24-2005, 11:50 PM
Vern:

"I was trying to set this all in a time scheme-- the alloyed lead bullets came into use when-- about the time automobiles started going fast enough to require wheel balancing? No, when velocities exceeded 1200 fps, right? Did that happen at the same time? If so when-- early 20th Cent? I guess I need to reread the basic literature--"

In a Beinfeld reprint of John Ratliffe Chapman's "Improved American Rifle" (check on AbeBooks to see if they can find a copy), originally written about 1850 to promote the use of "picket" bullets in Edwin Wesson's target rifles, there is a quite sophisticated discussion of the use of lead-tin-antimony alloys for these projectiles, which had very limited bearing surface and needed all the "bite" they could get on the rifling. So, it goes back at least to the middle of the 19th Century.

BP velocities "ceiling out" at 1500-1600 fps, and alloys up to 1:16 - 1:10 tin:lead (above that the tin doesn't enter into the alloy) were used for hot loads in the late 1800's. One-half to two percent tin can help fill-out in the mould, but that's something different.

floodgate

waksupi
06-25-2005, 12:36 AM
So I probably STILL don't know what the hell l'm talking about.
Brown Bess? Smoth bore . It will never care about what alloy you shoot.

VP
06-25-2005, 01:08 AM
In Chapman's "Improved American Rifle," written to promote the use of "picket" bullets in Wesson's target rifles, there is a sophisticated discussion of lead-tin-antimony alloys for these projectiles, which had limited bearing surface and needed all the bite they could get on the rifling. So, it goes back at least to the middle of the 19th Century. BP velocities "ceiling out" at 1500-1600 fps, and alloys up to 1:16-1:10 tin:lead were used for hot loads in the late 1800s. floodgate
Thank you Floodgate-- Here's where I'm going with this-- With the Uberti copy of the 1873 Single Action Army pistol, do I need to use pure lead, or can I use the little "RCBS" marked ingots that are stacked up under my workbench, where they have been for 10 years-- I don't know what they are but I'm 99% sure they are wheelweights; don't know what else they would be-- does it matter if they are pure lead or WW for casting rounds for this piece? I think I'm looking at about 880 fps with the .45 LC, with the Unique, if I can find it, and don't think I'll get close to 1600 fps until I study up on some hot loads for elephant hunting.

You bent the loading lever on your 1960 Army Model? I have an 1860 Army model, F.illa.Pietta, fine piece, and I can't remember whether I fired pure lead or something else or whether I fired Speer rounds (is that ok to post here-- that I bought Speer bullets?). But I can't remember where I parked my car. It was an original Army revolver? The steel (iron?) wasn't strong enough to compress a wheelweight bullet? Or was it defective? TIA
Vern (VP)

wills
06-25-2005, 11:40 AM
Most PBCR is shot with 20/1 or 30/1 lead/tin. Ought to work for peestols too.

floodgate
06-25-2005, 11:43 AM
VP:

You can use just about anything in your Uberti 1873 at that velocity - subject to the usual caveats about case-neck vs. cylinder throat and barrel groove fit. Pure lead will work, but you may get a bit of leading, and if they don't fill out well in the mould you may need to add a smidgin of tin (use "lead-free" solder - it is 95% tin). I don't use WW's much myself, but from what I see here, they should work fine in this application, and any of the standard lubes will do at 880 fps with Unique.

The old Colt (it cost me $25 in 1950!) was mostly made of wrought iron, and the cylinder of "silver steel" - an alloy Colt got from England that was much like our drill rod, and allowed him to squeeze a .44 into a frame designed for the .36's, and .36's into the .31 frame. I bought a replacement "new-old-stock" rammer from either Jim Serven or Bannerman for $1.00 or so, but was able to straighten the original as a spare and later used it for another repair. The Speer RB's are - I believe - pure lead and are no problem. In my case, the problem was a combination of 'way oversize ball of "mystery metal" from an original Colt mould, and maybe a weak part. The balls should be just large enough that you shear a very slight ring of lead in seating them; that and either a wad under the ball or grease packed in over it insures against "flashover". Note that both the Colts and the Remingtons have enough clearance that if that occurs, the ball in the next chamber can escape; startling, but not dangerous.

floodgate

Junior1942
06-25-2005, 02:11 PM
P.S. My hat is cooler than yours.Nope, ain't no way. That's my Indiana Junior hat. I wore it while doing state-sponsored archaeology on an 8,000 year old Paleoindian site.

shooter575
06-25-2005, 02:37 PM
VP welcome to the nut house. As stated above the only thing that must have soft lead would be a C&B revolter or a rifled musket shooting a minne. For diffrent reasons though. The revolver is for ease of loading with the loading lever. I suppose if you removed the cylinder and made a starter and beat em in.
The minne needs soft lead to expand fully into the rifleing with the modest powder charges used [65gr] in the thin barrels of the C/W era. To hard of lead will keyhole.
I shoot a 1816 orgional built in 1827 that I restored. It was a post war cut down to a shotgun.Shoots like gangbusters at 25 & 50 yd. I use soft lead in her only because hard lead cast biger than soft in the same mould and the hard ball is too big. Got a buddy that uses old pewder plates for his balls.

Wayne Smith
06-25-2005, 07:55 PM
I agree with the above but will add one other use of pure lead. That's with heeled bullets, .38 S&W, .41 Colt, the original .44 American all used heeled bullets, as well as others less common, such as the .376 Eely (Colt 1875 revolvers were made in this caliber!). These need the heel of the bullet to bump up to the duameter of the barrel. In the .41 Colt inside the case is .386" while the bore is .400". You can drop an inside lubed bullet down the barrel without it touching!

carpetman
06-26-2005, 02:43 AM
Junior 1942---I certainly enjoyed doing a fair amount of reading at your site. Your green underware and white not showing reminded me of an incident that happened here. Opening day of season at one of the very few public hunting places here,a guy stepped out of the brush in full camoflage and wearing face paint and someone took his head off thinking he was a turkey. I believe in blaze orange and well it takes a fool to not wear it especially on public land. I wear it on private land and I would much rather have game see me than someone NOT see me. BTW,you know why they ask at supermarket if you want paper or plastic? You might be a New Orleans Aint fan and plastic could suffocate you. Now you and VP have cool hats---well ok somewhat cool hats. But the real cool one belongs to me. It was a very high dollar hat made about the time you and I were born(early-40's). Ive had it going on 20 years. It's a Knox brand. Has what looks like teeth hanging on the band and onto brim---they're tips of deer antlers--fools most people. Not related to the turkey story above,I ask for a reason,do you hunt turkeys?

Junior1942
06-26-2005, 07:55 AM
I ask for a reason,do you hunt turkeys?Yep, but I haven't hunted them in several years. I bought a T-C Black Mountain Magnum 12 ga muzzloader shotgun just for turkey hunting.

I'm lucky to have plenty of private land on which to hunt. I don't deer hunt on public land because of the following story: Around 1970 or so, I went deer hunting on a nearby game reserve. I scouted the area before opening day and found a good spot. Opening morning, I was on that spot about an hour before dawn. When the sun came up, there was an orange vest off in front of me. Off to the right was another one. Same off to the left. I looked behind myself, and lo and behold saw another orange vest.

I stood and started whistling "Dixie" as loud as possible. And I whistled it all the way to my truck, and I have not deer hunted on public land since.

We're blessed here in north Louisiana with lots of public land open to anyone. If I HAD to hunt public land, a little research would show many little-hunted areas. That's where you'd find this ol' boy--but not on opening morning.

wills
06-26-2005, 01:40 PM
Opening morning, I was on that spot about an hour before dawn. When the sun came up, there was an orange vest off in front of me. Off to the right was another one. Same off to the left. I looked behind myself, and lo and behold saw another orange vest.

I stood and started whistling "Dixie" as loud as possible. And I whistled it all the way to my truck, and I have not deer hunted on public land since.

We're blessed here in north Louisiana with lots of public land open to anyone. If I HAD to hunt public land, a little research would show many little-hunted areas. That's where you'd find this ol' boy--but not on opening morning.

Vests to right of them,
Vests to left of them,
Vests in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd

wills
06-26-2005, 01:48 PM
Junior 1942---I certainly enjoyed doing a fair amount of reading . Now you and VP have cool hats---well ok somewhat cool hats. But the real cool one belongs to me. It was a very high dollar hat made about the time you and I were born(early-40's). Ive had it going on 20 years. It's a Knox brand. Has what looks like teeth hanging on the band and onto brim---they're tips of deer antlers--fools most people. Not related to the turkey story above,I ask for a reason,do you hunt turkeys?

My cool hat disappeared. It was my uncles work hat and when it got too worn out for him he left it in the barn and the chickens roosted above it for a while before I found it. Loved that hat. Had character. I suspect SWMBO had something to do with the disappearance.

VP
06-26-2005, 03:03 PM
VP: ... The old Colt (it cost me $25 in 1950!) was mostly made of wrought iron, and the cylinder of "silver steel" - an alloy Colt got from England that was much like our drill rod, and allowed him to squeeze a .44 into a frame designed for the .36's, and .36's into the .31 frame.
floodgate

Floodgate thanks again for good info. My father also bought an old Colt, for $25, but in 1940, the 1873 SAA. He also bought two 1860 Army models that year as well, for $9 and $25. I learned to shoot on them. He doesn't want to shoot the 1873 SAA and so we may get two of those Uberti replicas. I find the Uberti web site confusing however-- they don't show any revolvers that looks like the '73 SAA pictured on the Navy Arms site-- yet I'm told that Navy Arms is Uberti's prime seller here.
Vern

VP
06-26-2005, 03:08 PM
Nope, ain't no way. That's my Indiana Junior hat. I wore it while doing state-sponsored archaeology on an 8,000 year old Paleoindian site. www.castbullet.com
Junior, if you wore that hat on a dig, it is definitely cooler. Your web site www.castbullet.com is wonderful-- I liked the review of WC820, with images-- I have loaded a few hundred M1 Carbine rounds with that powder, and love it. I also like the article Apartment Reloading.

Wayne Smith
06-26-2005, 03:19 PM
VP, you want the Uberti Cattleman. I have one in 4.5" with birdshead grips and one in 7.5" with regular grips, both in 44-40. I like the traditional length and grip better. I got the 44-40 to go with my Uberti 1873 Short Rifle, also in 44 WCF, the original caliber. It wasn't until 1874 that Colt chambered the 1873 in 44 WCF, and they didn't start real production, from what I've read, until September of 1873 in .45 Colt. In other words, the .44 WCF was chambered within months of the .45 Colt.

I really like these, and shoot them with 40 gr Goex FFFG (compressed) and the 200 gr. MAV bullet. I cast these out of ww metal.

VP
06-26-2005, 04:16 PM
VP, you want the Uberti Cattleman. I have one in 4.5" with birdshead grips and one in 7.5" with regular grips, both in 44-40. I like the traditional length and grip better. I got the 44-40 to go with my Uberti 1873 Short Rifle, also in 44 WCF, the original caliber. It wasn't until 1874 that Colt chambered the 1873 in 44 WCF, and they didn't start real production, from what I've read, until September of 1873 in .45 Colt. In other words, the .44 WCF was chambered within months of the .45 Colt. I really like these, and shoot them with 40 gr Goex FFFG (compressed) and the 200 gr. MAV bullet. I cast these out of ww metal.
Wayne is one of the Uberti Cattleman shown at www.uberti.com/firearms/1873-sa-cattleman.tpl an exact copy of the '73 SAA? With the 3 click hammer? No modern safety stuff? Firing pin in the hammer, dropping into a cylinder? Here is the listing of the Cattleman models from that site:
344100 - 1873 Cattleman NM 4-3/4" Steel - MSRP $410
345122 - 1873 Cattleman OM 4-3/4" Charcoal Blue - MSRP $480
344151 - 1873 Cattleman NM 7-1/2" Nickel - MSRP $500
345029 - 1873 Cattleman NM 7-1/2" Stainless Steel - MSRP $495
355130 - 1873 Cattleman OM 5-1/2" Old West Finish - MSRP $495
343990 - 1873 Cattleman NM 4-3/4" Millennium - MSRP $275
344510 - 1873 Cattleman NM 5-1/2" Brass - MSRP $355

I'm guessing the first one but with 7 1/2" bbl is a copy of the SAA? That last one looks good-- not only $55 less but with some brass to color it up. Not as useful as a club or a hammer that way of course.

Junior1942
06-26-2005, 04:19 PM
Junior, if you wore that hat on a dig, it is definitely cooler.Here's me and the hat on the dig I mentioned. I'm sitting on a bucket in a looter hole, and,trowel in hand, I'm working on a 50cm X 50cm test unit.

http://www.castbullet.com/jpg/bottomland/junior.jpg

VP
06-26-2005, 04:22 PM
VP, you want the Uberti Cattleman. I have one in 4.5" with birdshead grips and one in 7.5" with regular grips, both in 44-40. I like the traditional length and grip better. I really like these, and shoot them with 40 gr Goex FFFG (compressed) and the 200 gr. MAV bullet. I cast these out of ww metal.
Wayne what do you think of this one? It's pictured at www.navyarms.com/html/sa_rev_of_west.html , the 6th revolver down. I'm not savvy enough to post the image here. Any idea who manufacturers their guns?

SCOUT SMALL FRAME REVOLVER
The Navy Arms single action revolver is identical to the 1873 Single Action revolver, but slightly smaller in size. The Scout is perfect for shooters with smaller hands, including ladies and young adults. Its lightweight and balance make it an outstanding revolver. Available in 38 spl.
Bbl. Length 5 1/2” -- Mod. No. NAS538 - $497.00 (FFL Required)

VP
06-26-2005, 04:30 PM
Here's me and the hat on the dig I mentioned. I'm sitting on a bucket in a looter hole, and,trowel in hand, I'm working on a 50cm X 50cm test unit.
That is some photo! How about that pink tape measure! What did you find in the hole? I'd be looking for a Confederate copy of the 1851 Colt Navy ...

Junior1942
06-26-2005, 07:54 PM
That is some photo! How about that pink tape measure! What did you find in the hole? I'd be looking for a Confederate copy of the 1851 Colt Navy ...Found lots of flakes and a few points and a knife, all stone of course. No Confederates on that site as the last occupants left circa 1,000 A.D., way before we had Yankees and Rebs. Hey, pink tapes are all Wal-Mart had!

Wayne Smith
06-27-2005, 01:35 PM
Yeah, that's the one. Closest copy you can find, three clicks, only safety is that the cylinder pin can be pushed in to the second groove and it protrudes through the frame and won't let the hammer fall. Almost totally unobtrusive, won't be noticed, and can be left at the normal stop all the time as mine are. (no little kids in the house any more!)

Laywers and lawsuits rule, even Colt would put a 'safety' on it today. This is the least obtrusive that I know. I assume you know that when Colt sold the equipment, guages, etc. for making the SAA Uberti bought it all. If you want a Colt, get a Uberti!

HTRN
06-27-2005, 09:32 PM
Nuts to both VP and Junior, I have the coolest hat in my avatar.
<------ :grin:

I wish I had a digital camera so I could show my wicked cool oilskin stetson....


HTRN

VP
06-28-2005, 12:37 AM
I assume you know that when Colt sold the equipment, gauges, etc. for making the SAA-- Uberti bought it all. If you want a Colt, get a Uberti! Nossir I did not know this. I am ordering 3 Ubertis. Two SAA in .45 LC, one in 7 1/2" bbl and one in 5 1/2" bbl, and a small frame Scout in .38, which I will give to my girlfriend, then borrow and shoot it myself. Not sure the .38 Scout is made by Uberti-- any way to find out? I searched www.Amazon.com for books on the new Italian repro Colts, but what a waste of time. I am an experienced expert on wasting time, but that must rank near the top of the list ... not a single book on the Italian repro Colts ...

Wayne Smith
06-28-2005, 09:21 AM
I'd e-mail Navy Arms and ask them who makes the Scout. I've not seen it on the Uberti site, so I'd guess if it is them it's special made for Navy Arms and not regular production.

Do ya think someone copied the frame size of Ruger's Bearcat? It sounds like it'd be about that size.

Let us know what you find out.

Uberti is now owned by Baretta. Pietta is the other major Italian manufacturer that does a very good job.

VP
06-28-2005, 11:13 PM
I'd e-mail Navy Arms and ask them who makes the Scout. I've not seen it on the Uberti site, so I'd guess if it is them it's special made for Navy Arms and not regular production. Do ya think someone copied the frame size of Ruger's Bearcat? It sounds like it'd be about that size. Let us know what you find out. Wayne, Navy Arms replied (with the briefest of notes) to say that their Scout is made by Uberti, and is based on the Uberti Stallion. You can see the Stallion on the Uberti site, and the Scout on the Navy Arms site. I'm guessing they are the same piece. Ya think so? Maybe one with darker finish, brass back strap and trigger guard, &c?

drinks
06-28-2005, 11:26 PM
VP;
My rule is , if it will melt, shoot it.
That said, I do have a BHN hardness tester and select alloys to fit the velocity and pressures I expect
An alloy hardness tester is a very useful tool.
Don ;D

klw
06-29-2005, 12:42 AM
Conventional wisdom seem to suggest pure lead for any muzzle loader, 30 to 1 for blackpowder cartridges and linotype for semi-automatics. That said, I've never seen anything that could be taken as proof that these "guidelines" have any validity.

What I do know is that wheelweights don't work well at high velocities. Linotype will. So I use wheelweights in my 50-70, for example, where it works just fine but I wouldn't use it in a high speed modern rifle.

I too have been looking at a Brown Bess. The originals aren't all that pricey but the replicas are interesting as well. What appeals, however, are the Wilkinson or Williams bullets, odd projectiles meant to get near rifle like accuracy out of smooth bores.

Over at the NSSA there is a fellow who is REALLY into these unusual bullets. Every once in a while he get up an order for speciality moulds from Lee. Looks really interesting.

45 2.1
06-29-2005, 07:30 AM
What appeals, however, are the Wilkinson or Williams bullets, odd projectiles meant to get near rifle like accuracy out of smooth bores.

Over at the NSSA there is a fellow who is REALLY into these unusual bullets. Every once in a while he get up an order for speciality moulds from Lee. Looks really interesting.

klw-
Please post a link to that.

Tom W.
06-30-2005, 12:14 AM
Well, for roundballs in my T/C hawken I've used lead. w/w and babbitt, and mixtures of all three, with both cloth patches and butler creeks poly patches. I will admit the harder balls were not pleasant to load. I used pure lead (at least I could mar it easily with my thumbnail) to make my Maxi-balls.

When casting for smokeless loads, i've used #2 nickle babbitt, w/w, and a blend of some of each. My supplier gets me a 60 lb. ingot of pure lead, and I add the babbitt to it, to harden the lead up.

I'm not a finicky purist. I'll melt down old salvaged flashing, pipes, range lead, and whatever is given to me. Most of my bulets weigh within 5 or so grains of the advertised weight, and That keeps me happy.