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HardColt
01-22-2012, 08:29 AM
Hello everyone!!!! Been a sad day yesterday when my son just got home from the indoor range. The range officer/manager asked him if he was into reloading and he said yes. He just wanted to inform my son that our indoor range ( still indefinite date) will not be allowing members &visitors to shoot reloads using LEAD CAST bullets. I was just taken aback while we were chatting cause this is why I started casting/reloading about 28 yrs ago. Only reloaded copper jacketed bullets will be allowed on the indoor range. My son was upset too, cause he just started casting his own LRN 230g 45 acp a couple of weeks ago since we were running low on projectiles and I am overseas to do a mass production casting for our stash. My son wasn't explicit when the ban would take effect? I don't know if the EPA is involved or it is because the indoor range where we are both members disregarded and let their indoor air filtration/recirculation system go beyond repair. Now, it will be expensive to have it repaired and bring it up to standards with EPA or what? It's is a good indoor range and people are really friendly, they even have a free member bring one guest, active military, retiree use on Fridays. It's just the red tape that everyone needs to muddle with.
My next question is: Has anybody attempted to copper jacket lead cast bullets? Is the electrolysis or whatever process used intensive and sort of NASA level aptitude? Don't want to give up shooting, reloading and casting. I can't find another fix to substitute for the addiction. Thanks.

btroj
01-22-2012, 09:27 AM
Many here have tried to copper plate, none have done it successfully. You can get a light copper wash easily, getting ever a 10 thousandths buildup is the tough part.

I think this is best left to industry where they can do things just no feasible at home.

blademasterii
01-22-2012, 10:16 AM
On a completely unrelated note. :D I hear they sell copper colored spray paint now.

happyret65
01-22-2012, 10:21 AM
Sounds like it is time to get someone new running your indoor range and talk to the Board about this change.

Moondawg
01-22-2012, 10:54 AM
The last I heard, the only indoor range in San Antonio, Texas will not allow any type of reloaded ammunition. In fact they will not allow regular factory ammunition. You have to purchase the special clean ammo, that has the bullet completely enclosed in a heavy copper jacket, or uses a lead free bullet, and that uses lead free primers. The reason, the EPA inspects them and if the EPA can detect the smallest trace of lead the EPA will close the range down. Also, the range cannot just exhuast any airborn lead to the outside, that would also be polution. In this country, both state and federal government is serious about potential lead polution. That also serves as a good excuse to limit and/or make shooting more difficult.

cbrick
01-22-2012, 11:23 AM
So far in this post it's Virginia and Texas. And they bad mouth California?

Ok, I don't shoot at indoor ranges where it's your choice, shoot the target or hit it with the muzzle but I've heard none of these restrictions from those that do.

The last indoor range I went to about 30 years or so ago anounced to me when I arrived that all fired brass was theirs, that I couldn't leave with a single piece of fired brass. Well, like I said, that was the last one I went to.

Rick

btroj
01-22-2012, 12:31 PM
I shot at a private, for profit, indoor range yesterday. Shot cast Boolits, no questions asked.
Only time I have seen them ask about ammo is for guys shooting rifles.
I can pick up my cases, sometime a get a few from others who are not reloaders.

I wonder if this is really an EPA thing or is it so the range can sell more ammo to increase profits?

Blammer
01-22-2012, 12:36 PM
sorry to hear that.

May be time to seriously start looking for another place to shoot, outdoor public range perhaps.

Hardcast416taylor
01-22-2012, 12:36 PM
And all I have to use for my various shooting is my old "sad sack" open gravel pit with my pitiful excuses of target holding boards out in that disgusting open air!:groner:Robert

JonB_in_Glencoe
01-22-2012, 12:51 PM
not be allowing members &visitors to shoot reloads using LEAD CAST bullets. I was just taken aback while we were chatting cause this is why I started casting/reloading about 28 yrs ago. Only reloaded copper jacketed bullets will be allowed on the indoor range..

Can anyone explain a difference of Lead/Air contamination in an indoor range using Boolits as opposed to J-words in Home handloaded ammo ?

Jon

mdi
01-22-2012, 01:03 PM
From what I understand Jon, the exposed base of the lead boolit will "vaporize" from the burning powder and contaminate the air in the range. J bullets supposidly have closed bases and are not affecte by the hot gasses (although I've shot some .45 ACP bullets that had open bases). Or so the "Greenies" say...

lead chucker
01-22-2012, 01:27 PM
That sucks you can't shoot cast at your range. That's like the grocery store not letting you pay with cash. I feel fortunate we have an out door range with covered bench area. It's pretty much a free for all.

1Shirt
01-22-2012, 01:55 PM
Has the smell of the EPA (or) some green weenie, save the planet local type who has bought the coolaid drinking of their ilk.
1Shirt!:coffee:

sig2009
01-22-2012, 02:03 PM
Why do you people tell these ranges you reload lead? It's none of their business! I go to ranges all the time with that lead BS **** that says you cannot shoot lead. I shoot it anyway! Screw you I payed you for the range time. Next time if someone asks your answer should be "No I don't reload" and "No I do not shoot lead ammo" and "No I don't reload"!

Hickory
01-22-2012, 02:04 PM
Have the club members -who will- shoot full house loads.
On an indoor range the concussion is terrible.
Tell those in charge that your gun shoot best with near max loads.

ColColt
01-22-2012, 02:07 PM
I'm fortunate in that they don't care what you shoot at our range. I've seen everything from shotguns(with lead slugs) to 50 cal magnum loads and lead boolits used. I shoot primarily SWC's and it's never been questioned by anyone. I don't know where I'd go were it not for this range just 7 miles down the road. The next range is outdoors 17 miles from here. I reckon I'd have to have by basement floor dug up and an underground range installed(with proper ventilation, of course).

Recluse
01-22-2012, 02:10 PM
I've long said that if Osama bin Laden had flown airliners into the EPA and IRS buildings, I would've started a fundraiser to buy him more airplanes.

:coffee:

Sonnypie
01-22-2012, 02:11 PM
has the smell of the epa (or) some green weenie, save the planet local type who has bought the coolaid drinking of their ilk.
1shirt!:coffee:

amen!

justingrosche
01-22-2012, 02:15 PM
We have one such range, in Kent, WA. Champion Arms.
I went there to go shoot my revolvers one day and they said I couldn't shoot lead bullets in their range. They were actually quite rude about it. It was like I just tracked in dog sh*t on their carpet.
Never have been back, never will.

sirgknight
01-22-2012, 02:16 PM
Don't know how active you are in politics, but it wouldn't hurt to contact your senior U.S. senator, Jim Webb (D) and get him involved in this matter. If he is not pro-2nd Amendment, it just so happens that he is up for re-election this year. It wouldn't hurt to send a letter to your (R) governor either. If we don't get involved with the grass roots movement of protecting our 2nd amendment rights, then we soon won't have any; I don't care what the "constitution" says. Just look whats going on between Washington and the states now.

captaint
01-22-2012, 02:17 PM
I might shoot indoors twice a year - this time of year. The place where I go has 20 yards max and last time I was there, I left with a few 45ACP cases that had belonged to someone else. No restrictions at all. Even up to 7 mag rifle. It's a fairly new place and has that ground rubber for a backstop. enjoy Mike

mpmarty
01-22-2012, 03:51 PM
The indoor range I frequent has a large sign over the butts "No Magnums". I got called out by a range officer about my pistol and the "huge noise and muzzle blast" he implied I was shooting a "magnum". I cleared my weapon and pulled a brand new box of Winchester silvertips out of my range bag, loaded a magazine and inserted it in the pistol and then fired it. The dufus said "see?" I showed him the box of 10mm factory rounds and said "see?" End of discussion.

trapper9260
01-22-2012, 04:03 PM
I hear it from someone that was thinking of building a indoor range and that lead bullets would not be shot unless there is a water base vent system to filter out the lead in the air for the indoor range . There are places he told that have them but it cost too much to put them in . I do all my shooting out side in my back yard when I want to do any . But jacket bullets is all can be used on a indoor range . From what I was told .

btroj
01-22-2012, 04:07 PM
Is it a club or a private, for profit range? Makes a difference.

All the talk of EPA, call Senators, etc makes no difference if we don't know the real reason. If it is a privately owned range run for profit it may well be the owner making a decision and placing blame elsewhere.

The reason we are given may well not be the actual reason. There is a motive somewhere but it may not be what we think.

Hang Fire
01-22-2012, 04:13 PM
On a completely unrelated note. :D I hear they sell copper colored spray paint now.

Ditto on that.

Also, one can buy artist's water based acrylic brush on paint with a very high pure copper content. Dries hard and self leveling, when drying it is like the tiny copper particles rise to the surface, I have used it on objects and then used acetic acid to achieve an aged verdigris patina to good effect.

After bringing this up, I remembered that I still have a little in a bottle. If it hasn’t dried up after all these years, think I will test and paint some boolits with it just to see how it does when fired.

Springfield
01-22-2012, 04:21 PM
If it was EPA it would be everywhere, especially here in California, and it isn't. So it must be the range's own rules. That's one of the reasons I do SASS shooting, I get to shoot without all the hassle private ranges give you.

uscra112
01-22-2012, 04:35 PM
There's a thread here on resin coated boolits.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=87768&highlight=resin

Good probability that this can be done at home.

Long thread, but worth the time.

Chicken Thief
01-22-2012, 05:22 PM
Copper plating on lead:

http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/flashcopper.html

dbarnhart
01-22-2012, 05:37 PM
I'd say it's time to have a conversation with the manager for the purpose of understanding WHY the ban on boolits. If he says that the exposed base of the lead boolit will "vaporize" from the burning powder then show him a few FMJ bullets. All of my FMJs that are 45, 223, and 308 have open bases with the lead exposed.

I guess I should be thankful for my local range. The only thing they don't allow is steel core bullets. Though my HK91 (308) is LOUD, they permit everything up through 338 Lapua Magnum.

shotstring
01-22-2012, 06:14 PM
If it was EPA it would be everywhere, especially here in California, and it isn't. So it must be the range's own rules. That's one of the reasons I do SASS shooting, I get to shoot without all the hassle private ranges give you.

The range I used to shoot some at in Northern California does not allow lead and they swear it is because of EPA restrictions. They claim they can be fined several thousand dollars for each lead round fired downrange. I haven't been able to talk with the owner and get him to quote chapter and verse, but sure would like to find out.

I always assumed that it was an air quality issue, and every range decided how they chose to meet those stringent pollutant measurement figures, with fines being levied if they didn't pass. But that wouldn't account for a "per round" fine that they claim is in effect.

John Boy
01-22-2012, 06:16 PM
From what I understand Jon, the exposed base of the lead boolit will "vaporize" from the burning powder and contaminate the air in the range.
Sure would like to read the source for this statement!

Lead starts to 'vaporize' at it's boiling point of 3180 °F. Ignition temperature of nitro cellulose powder is 160-170 degC (320 - 338 F)

Black powder ignition temperature is 572 F. I have dug BPCR spent bullets that were shot with a wax paper wad that have a base edge as sharp as the day they dropped out of the mold

uscra112
01-22-2012, 06:20 PM
They may be (or think they will be) under attack as an "industrial emitter" of lead. If you don't have adequate ventilation, you get lead dust the air, which is a genuine hazard to people in the building. This has been known for donkey's years, pre-WW2 even. So you install an aggressive ventilation system and vent the contaminated air to the outside. Now the EPA attacks you as an industrial emitter, because the concentration at the outlet of your ventilators is high enough to meet their threshold. But as a low-budget operation you can't afford the filtration system and the HazMat charges for disposal of what the filters catch. So all you can do is require that anything shot downrange doesn't put any lead in the air. Some codes (I'm told) also require lead-free primers.

Mind you, I'm not apologizing for this horse-hockey. I'm just offering my viewpoint as an ex-HazMat administrator - which was a hat I wore part-time before I retired.

The stories you'all are hearing sound like misinformation from ill-informed individuals who haven't had the situation explained them. Possibly by an insurance agent who has been misinformed. Insurance issuers are riddled with "risk analysts" who are carefully selected for their paranoid tendencies, and it's not uncommon for them to require some pretty ridiculous precautions on the part of their clients.

JonB_in_Glencoe
01-22-2012, 07:10 PM
From what I understand Jon, the exposed base of the lead boolit will "vaporize" from the burning powder and contaminate the air in the range.Sure would like to read the source for this statement!
Lead starts to 'vaporize' at it's boiling point of 3180 °F. Ignition temperature of nitro cellulose powder is 160-170 degC (320 - 338 F)
Black powder ignition temperature is 572 F. I have dug BPCR spent bullets that were shot with a wax paper wad that have a base edge as sharp as the day they dropped out of the mold


I posted the question to which mdi is responding. I assumed the lead dust would come from the projectiles hitting the backstop/bullet trap (steel,concrete, or hard rubber). In assuming that, I figure that j-words with their typical soft lead core would actually disintegrate sooner than many cast bullets, hence my question.
I have seen what is sold as scrap Lead from indoor ranges...there is a lot of powderized lead in there.

I had no idea that there are people out there, that think bullet bases are vaporizing from burning powder (Maybe vaporizing from extreme velocity from a varmint rifle, but that's a hole nudder thang). I don't think mdi is saying he believes this, just that is what some greenies in the EPA are claiming.

I have also heard of Primers being a culprit in lead vapor in the air in indoor ranges, but the OP didn't mention anything about that.
Jon

btroj
01-22-2012, 07:23 PM
Trying to reason with them is likely to just cause a headache. No better than beating your head against a wall.

They are either stupid or have financial motives. Nobody is going to change either of those.

Mooseman
01-22-2012, 07:44 PM
Primers are Lead Styphnate based...so lead vapors from Spent Primers are more of a "hazard". Lead boolit restrictions are just silly and More govt Control.

XWrench3
01-22-2012, 07:47 PM
I've long said that if Osama bin Laden had flown airliners into the EPA and IRS buildings, I would've started a fundraiser to buy him more airplanes.

the (not so) funny thing is the name of the #1 enemy of the u.s.a. was not much different that the #2 enemy, Obama. but don't worry, there is a LITTLE bit of difference in their beliefs. Obama is trying to ruin this country from WITHIN!

all this crud about lead poisoning is for the birds. the problem is that the general population has been bamboozled into thinking that it is an extremely poisonous compound. in automobiles, that particular type of lead is very dangerous indeed. tetraethyl lead will kill a human on contact (at least that is what my uncle who worked in a petroleum refinery told me). so will many other industrial chemicals. but you do not see the EPA busting every hardware store for carrying dangerous chemicals.

BOOM BOOM
01-22-2012, 07:59 PM
HI,
Sorry to hear your situation.
Various parts of the guberment( yeah I did it on purpose) State, co., City, Forest circus,have closed down 4 places I used to shoot. So I feel your pain.:Fire::Fire:

tinsnips
01-22-2012, 08:10 PM
Reading this thread makes me realize how lucky i am . My range is my wifes land an i let any kind of bullet be used . Also you have to pick up your cases . I just wish everyone had the same set up as me .

MtGun44
01-22-2012, 11:23 PM
". . . .if the EPA can detect the smallest trace of lead the EPA will close the range down."

Something wrong here. This can't be correct. ALL ranges everywhere would be shut
down immediately. ALL of them, 100%, if this were true.

Bill

Bullet Caster
01-23-2012, 01:47 AM
Sorry to hear of your troubles at the range. We have an indoor range here and I haven't tried to shoot cast boolits there yet. I'm just waiting on the day they tell me I can't. I have hunting rights on my land so I will continue to shoot outside here on my own land. Only thing I have to worry about are the cops showing up. BC

lead chucker
01-23-2012, 03:29 AM
Wish I had my own range I like the dig up my basement and make a range.

Ola
01-23-2012, 04:30 AM
Here in Finland they are banning lead bullets in some indoor ranges because the management is protecting the employees. The less they have to "breath lead" the less likely they are to get the symptoms. I think that is a valid reason.

I've seen an official "measurement report" about the subject. It said that a 9 mm lead bullet causes 300 times more lead in the air than a regular open-base 9 mm FMJ. If that report was correct the rifling has to rip off some lead -> lead dust (?)

dodgyrog
01-23-2012, 05:33 AM
We have none of this nonsense YET in the UK but I am sure that it will come to us a well!

adkpete
01-23-2012, 07:14 AM
This type of silliness is all over. One of our local ranges is trying to start an IDPA League for this summer. But no reloads will be allowed at all.

3006guns
01-23-2012, 07:32 AM
The more I hear about the "lead nazis" the angrier I get....especially if they're rude on top of it.

Next time you're confronted with the "EPA will fine us" line, ask...no, demand to see the regulations or any communications IN PRINT. If the range is privately owned they can set their own rules but saying the EPA is at fault sounds like a convenient cop out to me. Ask for proof.

There's no shame in fighting back. Make 'em put up or shut up.

Pigslayer
01-23-2012, 07:34 AM
I wonder if this is really an EPA thing or is it so the range can sell more ammo to increase profits?

I would guess it's the ammo sales.

WILCO
01-23-2012, 07:40 AM
May be time to seriously start looking for another place to shoot...

Best answer.

Texantothecore
01-23-2012, 09:57 AM
Copper jacketed bullets can be swaged and you might go over and ask some questions in the swaging section cause I guarantee you that someone over there is doing it. Apparently it can be done fairly cheaply using your reloading press, but there is a little bit of equipment to buy, mostly dies.

Good luck.

happyret65
01-23-2012, 10:36 AM
When I was working, our federal indoor range was constantly being monitored for ventilation problems. We allowed civilian shooters, that signed a waiver, to shoot at the range. The range was finally closed due to the expense of updating the blowers/filters and possible lawsuits. This was back in the late 70's & 80's we saw the end of the range. EPA is the problem for most of the goofy green/health problems in this country. Do away with them!

popper
01-23-2012, 10:58 AM
Combination of EPA, soccer moms and Obamacare. They got together and chased a battery recycler out of Carrolton, now are trying to chase one out of Frisco. Don't want bullets or lead (or ANY manufacturing) around their huge houses and spoiled kids. They don't like high tension power lines around their houses either. This lead thing started when kids in the projects(think NYC and Philly) were eating lead based paint off the walls. Check it out.

Sonnypie
01-23-2012, 11:09 AM
The last time I was at an indoor range was in the later 1980's.
We went there to try out a 44 Rem Mag from their loaner guns (free) to see if the boys could shoot one.
You had to buy their ammo to borrow a gun.
Their ammo was reloaded and had lead (not jacketed) bullets.

I do know the police indoor range near where I used to work has 3 commercial cyclonic dust collectors on the side of their building.
I know from my own that these can filter down into 1 micron of particulate matter. (Mine does)
I use to wonder how small that was. Then I found out that most bacteria is around 2 microns in size.

So maybe what it is is they just don't want to spend the money to install and maintain the filtration. ???

But they are private businesses and as such can refuse service to anyone. Even evil-doer bullet caster non-conformists reloaders who would go against the grain of big manufactures.

So there, You Rogue Radicals!

(I shoot outdoors. Read my lips: I don't care! If you don't like it, don't go there.) :lol:

cbrick
01-23-2012, 12:08 PM
Can't argue with anything you said Sonny but there is one other point to consider. For you and I living in sunny So. California where ice cold winter temps are possibly as low as 45-50 degrees it's a simple matter to avoid indoor ranges. For some folks for several months of the year it's the only choice except not shooting.

It would for me be a simple choice, I only shoot cast, my own cast and I sure as h*ll ain't buying some one elses handloads. So like you I don't go there. And keep my brass? They might as well tell me my gun is their's when I leave.

Rick

Suo Gan
01-23-2012, 12:09 PM
Lead dust gets air born when the bullet smacks the backstop. It is a legitimate concern for anyone shooting indoors especially young shooters. I use several outdoor ranges, or go plinking on the 50 million acres of BLM or forestry nearby here in California.

btroj
01-23-2012, 12:23 PM
Can't argue with anything you said Sonny but there is one other point to consider. For you and I living in sunny So. California where ice cold winter temps are possibly as low as 45-50 degrees it's a simple matter to avoid indoor ranges. For some folks for several months of the year it's the only choice except not shooting.

It would for me be a simple choice, I only shoot cast, my own cast and I sure as h*ll ain't buying some one elses handloads. So like you I don't go there. And keep my brass? They might as well tell me my gun is their's when I leave.

Rick

Thanks Rick. I shot at the indoor range Sat Asia was 20 degrees peso,outside but we had wind gusts of up to 30 degrees. Not even close to being outdoor range weather. It was brutal out in that wind.

I find the indoor range a good place to take new shooters. Warm, dry, no mud, nice target carriers. The cost is about the same as what I burn in gas driving to and from the gun club I am a member of.

Sure Soony, we can choose to not go. That also means that much of the year up north we aren't shooting. Sometimes we gotta do what we gotta do.

bowfishn
01-23-2012, 01:15 PM
By next winter I should have my private 25 yard indoor range finished on my own property. Will only have a 6' wide by 80' shooting alley with a bullet trap to recycle my lead. It will also double as a 20 yard indoor bow range. I will be able to have my chronograph set up with its own lighting so I never have to worry about how bright the sun is or if it is overcast. Side walls are 4" concrete filled, end wall is 8" concrete tapering in to the bullet trap.
Will only be my immediate family and a few friends that will use it with me. Will put in ventilation to reduce smoke build up and keep the air clean inside.

Right now it is only 58' long and is being used for hay overflow for my wifes 4 horses.

No zoning here where I live so I didn't have to get a permit, It will not be open to the public so act 250 is not invovled.

cbrick
01-23-2012, 01:32 PM
By next winter I should have my private 25 yard indoor range finished on my own property.

Now that's sweet, can you give us an idea of what the cost is?

Rick

Markbo
01-23-2012, 02:46 PM
We have a couple here in Houston that won't allow reloads at all. It's not EPA related. They want you to buy ammo from them to shoot at their range! easy fix. I don't go there.

bowfishn
01-23-2012, 05:34 PM
cbrick, I haven't been keeping track of the extra cost. I put up a 2 story building 26' x 20' that I use to store equipment and put my office in for my business. I need to keep a section clear where I load and unload equipment which gives me a clear section 26' long. My wifes hay storage and walk in for her horses is conected to the back of this structure and was 32' x 12' , so I added a 6' wide piece the length of that structure that is on the side of mine that I keep clear. The cost of the extra 6' piece has been added to the cost of the horse stuff for my wife. (as long as she gets what she wants for her horses she don't care about the extra I add) When spring comes around I will finish her hay storage it will add over 20 more feet to the length giving me the distance I need, I will add it up some time to give you an idea of the cost to add the extra piece.

shooterg
01-23-2012, 07:00 PM
Must just be the range owner. Most indoor ranges in VA don't seem to care. And we still have a lot of outdoor ranges. In re a post above, Sen. Webb(a pro-gun Democrat) is not running for re-election.

HardColt
01-23-2012, 08:07 PM
I've been looking into that avenue about swaging lead bullets into copper tubes. I am just getting ready when s*** hits the fan scenario. Researched public ranges close to newport news, and nothing of close driving distance from us. We have another combination indoor/ outdoor shooting range here and reasonable driving distance but even if we can afford the membership fee, a member must sponsor you first before your application even gets considered. Even a member's sponsorship is not guarantee you will be accepted to become a member. Overall, this is beginning to really drag me down. I'm heading back stateside for leave June, and it would really suck if I can't shoot. Bummer.

Bullwolf
01-23-2012, 10:10 PM
A few years ago, I used to worked for an indoor range. One of our daily duties was sweeping and oiling the backstop. We had to dress up in Tyvek suits with foot booties, safety glasses, with respirators on, and squeegee oil onto the backstop, and scrape all the range splatter back to the end of the range. I often used a squared end shovel to do this with.

I have never sweated quite as much in my life, as I sweated while wearing a full suit made out of non breathable material like Tyvek, a respirator, and a pair of steamed up safety glasses. It was a hot, humid, and much disliked duty.

Lead dust definitely will become airborne from both lead and jacket bullets striking and shattering on the backstop. You could see it in the piles of range scrap, and it would migrate around the range quite a bit. I fail to see how jacketed, or even plated bullets were any better than straight up cast boolits. When they break up, they all will shed pieces of lead.

The range I worked for was also fined for not having any filters in the ventilation system. The ventilation system had a large quantity of lead dust in it. The clean up resulted in many very heavy 5 gallon buckets filled with lead dust. I hate to think what kind of trouble that would have resulted in today. Probably some sort of bio hazard clean up, and the range being temporarily shut down, or at least a story on the news.

All the employees were blood tested and had their lead levels checked for a while after that, myself included. I never showed a high lead level despite the ventilation conditions, or the fact that I cast and load my own boolits. I still believe that lead styphnate primer contamination is an easier way to absorb lead into your system, than straight up metallic lead. It also helps to follow basic safe lead procedures, like washing your hands before smoking or eating, after you have been handling lead.

Looking back now, I still beat myself up over the whole thing. How could I not bring any of the buckets home with me and smelt them down into ingots? At the time wheel weights were still plentiful, and I also thought a bit easier to handle. That lost range scrap sure looks a lot more desirable to me now.

I remember thinking that the lead dust would be a real hassle to deal with (take scoops of it out?) and the buckets were even heavier than an overfull bucket of wheel weights, so I passed on them. [smilie=b:

I still kick myself today, for not saving any of that lead.



- Bullwolf

shotstring
01-23-2012, 11:12 PM
Can't argue with anything you said Sonny but there is one other point to consider. For you and I living in sunny So. California where ice cold winter temps are possibly as low as 45-50 degrees it's a simple matter to avoid indoor ranges. For some folks for several months of the year it's the only choice except not shooting.

It would for me be a simple choice, I only shoot cast, my own cast and I sure as h*ll ain't buying some one elses handloads. So like you I don't go there. And keep my brass? They might as well tell me my gun is their's when I leave.

Rick

I don't know if I can agree with you cbrick. Outdoor ranges and public shooting areas in California have been closing down at a tremendous rate. The Los Angeles Forest area went from dozens of public shooting areas and 1 outdoor range, to 3 public shooting areas and 1 outdoor range. And you now have to travel dozens of miles further to reach them.

Where I live now, in central California, the closest outdoor range is a 2 hour drive from my house. Only place to shoot closer is to know someone with some land. And this is in the middle of the best duck and geese hunting on the west coast (5 federal waterfowl sanctuaries open to shotguns only).

cbrick
01-23-2012, 11:58 PM
You've missed the point shotstring, many folks live where this time of year it's zero degrees or colder with 4 feet of snow on the ground and the wind is howling. Are they going to shoot outdoors? That was my point.

The public shooting areas in the Angeles Forest weren't closed for anything related to lead which is the point of this thread. In fact most of these areas were closed well before lead became an issue. The shooters themselves turned these places literally into dumps. They hauled in old cars, appliances and anything else they could shoot up and left it all there expecting the Forest service to clean up after them. In some places the broken glass was over two feet thick. Plastic bottles and other trash blowing in the wind covered entire hillsides and beyond surrounding the shooting area. That's why these public shooting areas were closed in the Angeles National Forest.

Rick

Black Powder Bill
01-24-2012, 12:46 AM
Being a range officer and officer in a gun club,(past president); we have hashed out the lead situation several times. Shooting only outfoors we still have lead to worry about.


Lead dust like on a indoor rage is caused by bullets striking a steel back board. Ths solution to this is those rubber like blocks that absorb the bullet. This way you can take a block at end life and sell it for scrap.

Dust in ventilation is most likely from burnt powders. While it looks like smoke it's no doubt left over carbon type dust.

Anything that collects lead particles like water or filters is now a hazmat item. I can't even fathom trying to treat thousands of gallons of water that was used as an air wash.
I work in the HVAC industry and have looked at indoor range air filtration systems. Over kill , they are using traditional jointed duct work that collect every bit of dust in every crack. Filters are standard hepa styles. This was a few years back, maybe their is something better now but I doubt it.

Copper wash on a lead bullet is supposedly meant to keep leading in the bore down.

Lubrication is suppose to create a film between the lead and bore, again to prevent leading.

So, a tmj bullet striking a steel backboard is suppose to stay intact, not exposing the lead core.

The solution to bullet frags,stop shooting at steel backstops.

On the up side the range that does not allow lead bullets can collect the copper.
What's the price of scrap lead vs copper?

Why compete with other ranges when you can tell the epa were a copper only range. Keeps the goverment out of your books.

VA Shooter
01-24-2012, 11:00 AM
I live in Virginia and don't shoot indoors but was thinking about it when it's cold what part of VA is the this range?

remy3424
01-24-2012, 11:01 AM
I am very lucky to have family ground to shoot on and don't have the hassle of someone elses range rules. I guess my shooting, other that hunting, once the winter really sets in comes to a halt and my reloading for warmer months gets ramped-up. I really like the warm months better! Like was said, find a different place to shoot, or buy your own and make your own rules if you don't like thiers. If I lived closer to an indoor range, it would be great to shoot there, but if reloads weren't allowed, it wouldn't be for me.

milprileb
01-24-2012, 11:08 AM
OP lives in Virgina as do I .

If he needs info on outdoor ranges to shoot, he can contact me via email.

I don't shoot indoors but our range is open 12 hrs per day, every day of the year for $100 dues
and thats pretty convenient.

jonk
01-24-2012, 11:09 AM
Don't have that problem, but two around here only let you shoot ammo you buy there.

I don't go to those ranges.

In fact I rarely go to indoor ranges at all. But when I do shooting lead isn't an issue.

gwilliams2
01-25-2012, 07:27 PM
The last I heard, the only indoor range in San Antonio, Texas will not allow any type of reloaded ammunition. In fact they will not allow regular factory ammunition. You have to purchase the special clean ammo, that has the bullet completely enclosed in a heavy copper jacket, or uses a lead free bullet, and that uses lead free primers. The reason, the EPA inspects them and if the EPA can detect the smallest trace of lead the EPA will close the range down. Also, the range cannot just exhuast any airborn lead to the outside, that would also be polution. In this country, both state and federal government is serious about potential lead polution. That also serves as a good excuse to limit and/or make shooting more difficult.

The only indoor range that I've ever been to happens to be in San Antonio (about 4 years ago) and you had to purchase all ammo from them at a ridiculous price; ammo wasn't anything special, just high priced. Needless to say, we didn't shoot there and I've never been back.

HardColt
01-26-2012, 03:25 PM
I live in Virginia and don't shoot indoors but was thinking about it when it's cold what part of VA is the this range?
We are in NN.

HardColt
01-26-2012, 03:31 PM
OP lives in Virgina as do I .

If he needs info on outdoor ranges to shoot, he can contact me via email.

I don't shoot indoors but our range is open 12 hrs per day, every day of the year for $100 dues
and thats pretty convenient.
Sir:
I am very appreciative of your invitation where ever your open range is. The close we have to where we live is Lafeyette but even if we can afford the yearly membership. A member needs to sponsor my son and I in turn when on leave can be his guest to shoot. Unfortunately, we don't know anybody from that club to sponsor us. I feel sorry for my son, because he's getting very interested in reloading and casting since I am overseas but I guess he needs to give up his shortlived interest in the hobby due to range restrictions that I hope doesn't happen. Thanks you very much for the concern again.

HardColt
01-26-2012, 03:37 PM
Now, I am having second thoughts about renewing our membership when Aug. '12 comes if ( the indoor range) it imposes that restriction regarding cast lead bullets. Its just gonna suck.

Sasquatch-1
01-26-2012, 04:31 PM
Hardcolt,

Do a search for Izaak Walton League of America. A lot of them have outdoor ranges and are resoably price. I use to belong to one in Gaitersburg Md. which is in the most liberal county in Maryland. It had a six position pistol range w/25 yd distance and a 3 position rifle range at 136 yds. I know an odd distance but when was the last time you shot at a deer at exactly 100 yds.:D

I now live in the Eastern Panhandle of West By God and belong to the local chapter in this area. It has a nice 6 position 25yd range where you can shoot anything except shotguns with shot, a 50 yd 22 rifle range and a 100 and 200 yd rifle range. It does cost $225.00 for the first year but right now renewal is $75.00.

We also have a local gun store that has an indoor pistol range and a 100yd indoor rifle range. I have never used these but have been told you have to use there indoor safe ammo.

Sasquatch-1
01-26-2012, 04:37 PM
This was posted on the EPA website. I am niether agreeing or disagreeing with them. I am just posting for information sake. (This article was a cut and paste on my behalf. The spelling errors are thier's)

A study was conducted to evaluate the feasibility of decreasing or eliminating airborne
lead contamination at firing ranges by modifying the ammunition fired. A 38 Special police revolver was used in the study and firings were conducted in a specially designed container which allowed trapping of particulate effluents from the weapon for subsequent analysis. Under the conditions of the experiment, conventional 38 Special ammunition yielded an average of 5,640 micrograms of lead per round at the position of the shooter. Under identical conditions, experimental ammunition, using jacketed soft-point projectiles and a special nonlead-containing primer composition, yielded an average of 13 micrograms of lead per round.

The data indicate a decrease of the particulate lead produced per round by a factor greater than foul' hundred. The ballistic characteristics of the ammunition were also examined. The manufacture of no-lead primers which will reproduce the interior ballistics of conventionally primed ammunition appears to bc well within the state of the' art.

Link to entire article.

http://www.epa.gov/ttnchie1/old/ap42/ch04/s0225/reference/ref_06c13s03_jan1995.pdf

wallenba
01-26-2012, 04:46 PM
It's getting that way here too. I have one local indoor that turns a blind eye to it, but it is stated on their liability waiver form that they are not allowed. I've been a loyal regular there and not a lot are loading them. I suspect that is why. I have tried the copper plate method with ZEP. It can be done, but my success was VERY limited and time consuming. Proper prep is the key. There is a kit available http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/flashcopper.html It too requires a special prep.

Sasquatch-1
01-26-2012, 05:01 PM
here is another link I found. I have not found anything in a quick search regulating bullets used at a range.

http://www.lni.wa.gov/Safety/Research/files/lead_range.pdf

wallenba
01-29-2012, 07:58 PM
I think with what copper is going for scrap, they will really like the idea of everyone shooting jacketed too.

sleeper1428
01-31-2012, 06:00 AM
I guess I have to consider myself quite lucky. Our local rifle and pistol club built, owns and operates our own indoor range - members and limited number of guests only - and since a large majority of members shoot lead, there's never been a mention of any restrictions being placed on the use of cast boolits. What the future holds is anyone's guess but at least we're good for the time being.

sleeper1428