250-grain SWC in .45 ACP

[handyrandyrc]

Okay, Rich. I've tried out these .45 Colt slugs you sent to me. They seat fine and I can get them to a correct depth. I have good loading data, and, in fact, loaded up some HEAVY hunting loads.

They are a LOT of fun to shoot -- they kick like a horse. However, I am having feed problems. I had problems before with SWC bullets in my Springfield XD, and I know the GLOCK models have similar problems.

The round feeds JUST FINE when the slide goes forward on the first round. The problem we run into is upon EXTRACTION. The rim of the round being dragged out of the cylinder "catches" on the steep shoulder of the SWC bullet. Most of the time, it's taking a chunk out of the lead, and sometimes even deforms the mouth of the brass. In doing so, it kicks the nose down of the next round in the magazine. Half the time the round will nosedive and not feed. The other half of the time, it will feed, but since the mouth has been deformed, and lead shaved/built-up, it doesn't seat into the chamber fully. Sometimes a good bump to the back of the slide will get it to fully seat and go into battery, but most of the time it's jammed hard, and I need to give it a little help (pushing the front corner of the slide into the carpeted counter in front of me at the range usually is enough to get the unfired round to extract.)

Man, I love the way these rounds go off. I'm going to build up a HEAVY 230-grain truncated cone round hunting load. They will feed without giving me problems.

Like I said, I faced this problem before in an XD... I was using Rainier plated SWC rounds, and they behaved the SAME way. Guys running .45 ACP GLOCK models report similar results, so it's not just an XD thing. It's probably the angle of the rounds (the way they point so "nose up" when in the magazine). Perhaps a 1911 magazine has the rounds sitting more level with the ground.

Rich, THANKS for the rounds! I do like them a lot! I wish I could find a heavier (250-260 grain .45 in a round or truncated nose). Anyone have a good idea if there is that sort of mould out there?

[singleshotbuff]

Handy,

I have a Lee mold that drops a 260r (from my alloy) boolit. Best I can describe it as is a rounded flat point. It has a rounded profile that is chopped off into a flat "meplat". Could be what you're looking for.

Alas, I have only used it in the TRUE 45 cartridge (45 Colt of course) LOL, so I couldn't comment on how it would feed for you.

However, if you'd like to "try before you buy" I can send you some sample slugs that you could load to check feeding. If they work, it's a stock Lee mold.

If you're interested, just drop me a PM.

SSB

[dk17hmr]

I use the Lee 255gr RNFP (casts 260gr) out of my Springfield 1911, I load them to 875fps and have no problem with feeding or extraction, but I only have troubles with my 1911 when I go super light loads that dont cycle the action completely.

I would check to see the capacity limit for hunting with a handgun in your state if you are using a XD, I think it is 9 here in MI for hunting.

[handyrandyrc]

Hey thanks for the tips there. I guess I should clarify -- it's not for HUNTING, but more for a defense load. Doubt I'll ever need them, but I'll keep my sidearm on me with these when I go in the field with a rifle. Looking for Coyotes and Jacks mostly.

We don't have any DOCUMENTED packs of wolves here in Utah, but I don't think I'd ever want to meet any without a sidearm. I guess a coyote hunter in Northern Utah shot one a while back, so eventually we'll probably have our share of 'em.

[scrapcan]

Handy,

Make sure that if you are hunting that your handgun meets your states regs for legal firearm. Here in Wyoming if you are carrying a caliber that is not legal for hunting while in the process of hunting big game and you use the handgun for a final finishing shot, you have just violated state law and could be prosecuted.

Also concealed carry while bow hunting could present a problem.

Just thought I would throw that out.

[handyrandyrc]

Again, thanks for the heads-up on that. I will check local laws and make sure I do what is required to be compliant.

[DLCTEX]

I have an Ideal 452-423 mold ( appears same as Lee 452-255 RF) that works well through my 1911. This may be what you need. Dale

[G. Blessing]

G'day Gentlemen,

My first post here, so, Hello.

Odd coincidence, this thread being here, one of the pieces of info I was starting to look for today, was to see if there was any information on this bullet in this cartridge.

Might I ask where you got load datta for this? the heaviest bullet my manuals list for .45acp is a 230grn.

Thanks,

G.

[9.3X62AL]

The Speer Manual shows some data for their 260 grain jacketed bullet in 45 ACP. That can be extrapolated a bit, if you so choose.

How about Lyman #454190, the "classic" 45 Colt boolit? This is a round profile, no shoulder, small meplat design weighing around 250-260 grains.

[Dale53]

Please keep in mind that the .45 ACP is regulated for a 230 gr jacketed bullet at 830 fps. Using 250-260 bullets in this caliber is out of specs. Particularly, when using a heavier bullet than design, you should REDUCE velocity, not increase it.

The beloved 1911 is a wonderful piece but using it "out of spec" can lead to serious damage (I cracked a slide early in my career from a combination of a "sagged spring" and a particular 200 gr bullet that actually took up more space in the case than the loading manual's 200 gr bullet). I was using the H&G #130 with data for the H&G #68. There is quite a difference in case capacity and after the damage, I managed to chronograph my "book load" and it was driving a 200 gr bullet at 1100 fps. Obviously, too heavy and I paid a price for it. It DID teach me something - "logic does not always apply":( .

So, you had better take some precautions when using heavier bullets than spec in a 1911. You need to actually weigh your slide spring, keep use of these loads to a minimum and keep you fingers crossed. Remember, you are talking about a 13% increase in weight. That is more serious than you might think. Using loading manual data for a jacketed bullet is normally ok (when you are going to use cast) but it also depends on seating depth).

Safety first, fellows and gals. We don't need any cracked slides, etc. Battering a fine firearm is not to be taken lightly.

My choice of a defense load is a 200 gr SWC bullet at 950-1000 fps. If that won't get the job done, you need a .44 magnum ( or go home:roll:).

YMMV
Dale53

[Slowpoke]

G'day Gentlemen,

My first post here, so, Hello.

Odd coincidence, this thread being here, one of the pieces of info I was starting to look for today, was to see if there was any information on this bullet in this cartridge.

Might I ask where you got load datta for this? the heaviest bullet my manuals list for .45acp is a 230grn.

Thanks,

G.

Both Hodgdon and Speer has data for a 260 gr bullet, Hodgden even lists a +P for the 260 gr.

I shot a awful lot of the Speer 260 with 8.4 gr HS-6 in my Springfield no harm done that I can tell, That was back in 1991 -92, I still use the same gun today.

good luck

[G. Blessing]

Thanks Guys,

Odd that my speer #13 manual dosn't list it. Technicaly, I don't have a 1911, I was looking for info for a friend. I had given him a box of 250gr SWCs that I cast, as a return on some he gave me earlier this year.

He had the thought of looking for load datta for putting them in ACP for his S&W, instead of in .45colt cases. I'll pass along the fact that it could verry well be out of spec, but that there is load datta availible.

G.

[TAWILDCATT]

HANDYRAN did you check the feed lips on your mags.sounds as if the empty is returning over a raised rd in the mag.the rd is pointed to high. just a thought.and to "BLESSING" a revolver can be loaded differant than the auto.it does not have to be balanced to the action.

[handyrandyrc]

I have loaded up some 255 grain Lee flat nose for the .45 Colt into .45 ACP cases. I will certainly be careful. I have published load data -- the instructions that came with my Lee .45 ACP dies even lists load data for 250 grain lead.

They had to seated to an OAL of 1.160" to get a good feed into the chamber (otherwise they liked to jam into the rifling). I have decreased the load a bit, as I know reducing case capacity also increases pressure. I'll let you guys know how it goes! Thanks to Singleshotbuff who sent out some of these Lee boolits for testing. If they work well, I'll be sure to buy a mould!

Also, I'm not shooting these in a 1911. This is an XD .45 Compact. Still retains a full 4" service barrel, but the grip has been shortened. It accomodates 10 rounds, so plenty for carry in the field. I'm not saying the XD is either more strong or less strong than a 1911, but it is a bit of a different firearm.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im with dale on this. I have no use for heavys in an acp whatsoever. I guess i have to ask why. Like Dale said its a waste of time. A 45acp isnt a hunting gun and even if you wanted to hunt with it at the ranges its capabably of harvesting deer a 200 swc at 800 fps would do just fine and if not put it away and take out a hunting gun. I count on my 1911s for competition shooting and self defense and am not willing to beat one up just to be different. Its a rare time that i even have 200s or 230s running full bore in one.
Please keep in mind that the .45 ACP is regulated for a 230 gr jacketed bullet at 830 fps. Using 250-260 bullets in this caliber is out of specs. Particularly, when using a heavier bullet than design, you should REDUCE velocity, not increase it.

The beloved 1911 is a wonderful piece but using it "out of spec" can lead to serious damage (I cracked a slide early in my career from a combination of a "sagged spring" and a particular 200 gr bullet that actually took up more space in the case than the loading manual's 200 gr bullet). I was using the H&G #130 with data for the H&G #68. There is quite a difference in case capacity and after the damage, I managed to chronograph my "book load" and it was driving a 200 gr bullet at 1100 fps. Obviously, too heavy and I paid a price for it. It DID teach me something - "logic does not always apply":( .

So, you had better take some precautions when using heavier bullets than spec in a 1911. You need to actually weigh your slide spring, keep use of these loads to a minimum and keep you fingers crossed. Remember, you are talking about a 13% increase in weight. That is more serious than you might think. Using loading manual data for a jacketed bullet is normally ok (when you are going to use cast) but it also depends on seating depth).

Safety first, fellows and gals. We don't need any cracked slides, etc. Battering a fine firearm is not to be taken lightly.

My choice of a defense load is a 200 gr SWC bullet at 950-1000 fps. If that won't get the job done, you need a .44 magnum ( or go home:roll:).

YMMV
Dale53

[handyrandyrc]

That is fine, and you are certainly entitled to even call me dumb for trying. But I'm going to play with it anyhow -- just because I want to experiment. Yeah, it's not ideal, and yeah, it's no hunting gun. I think when I called these "hunting" loads, was where I went wrong. Everyone seems to have it in their mind that I am going to use my .45 for hunting or something.

NOT AT ALL what my plans are.

This is just something for me to carry in the field when I'm wandering about -- geocaching, maybe some shooting. If there is any sort of hunting, it will be jackrabbits and/or coyotes. And I won't be using this .45 to do the shooting. I'll have a proper rifle for that. :) This is just a backup sort of firearm. I wanted to have a heavy, hard cast boolit loaded up stout for it. Nothing wrong with that. I'm not trying to make a .44 mag out of it... :) These are standard pressure loads that should give me no trouble.

[Pepe Ray]

handyrandyrc;
I'm on your side , FWIW [smilie=1:
Pepe Ray

[45 2.1]

The 45 ACP does quite well for game up to and including deer Thank You. That is if you put it where it should go for the power level involved. It does not take as much energy as some would think for clean kills. Our forefathers did quite well feeding there families with a lot less power.

[handyrandyrc]

Went to the range for the shoot test. Loaded one in the chamber and fired. Recoil was stout for sure, but not excessive. I picked up the dropped piece of brass to examine. Primer had begun to flatten a bit, but nothing extraordinary. Fired three more in that fashion, single shot, then pick up the brass to inspect. All of them "passed", in my book. I am going to reduce the load just a hair more and call it good.

I went on and fired through the full 50 I had made up. They actually are pretty darn accurate! Those flat points cut awesome holes in the paper. I shot them slow, and then with a faster cadence. I even double-tapped a half-dozen times. :Fire: Definitely more "stiff" than shooting my normal 230-grain loads, but nothing uncontrollable or excessive.

These are Lee 255-grain flat point rounds, sized to .452 with Javelina in the grooves. OAL was 1.16". I'm not going to give you my charge weight, as it's not published data, but I extrapolated from published data to figure out a "ballpark". I used Herco, as it's so good for heavy loads. I like these!

My biggest thanks go out to Singleshotbuff, for sending 50 slugs out to me to try out. I'm going to place an order for the Lee mould now! Thank you, my friend!

[Dale53]

handyrandyrc;
Not to beat a dead horse, but the issue is not pressure, per se, but slide recoil energy. Heavy bullets naturally recoil more (we all have been there and done that) but auto pistols are balanced for certain parameters. This includes, but not limited to recoil spring weight (stiffness), bullet weight, velocity and powder characteristics.

1911's are rugged guns, but when I was shooting IPSC, I saw a number of guns "fail" in a number of ways. Feed them what they need and they will live VERY long and useful lives (I have seen some that were shot extensively with hard ball equivalent and had over 200,000 loads through them. To get a long life, you need to either weigh the recoil spring periodically or better yet replace it on a routine and regular basis. The use of the Wilson Shok-Buff is also advised. The spring weight needs to be balanced with the load. Too heavy a spring rate can damage a pistol just like too light a spring rate.

FWIW
Dale53

[Boz330]

Personally I like the 200gr semi for IPSC comp. but a lot of the guys around here are shooting the 255 Colt bullet for competition. I haven't seen anyone have a problem because of the heavier bullet but they are also downloading it to about 650 fps. They claim that the recoil is less.

Bob

[DLCTEX]

I am using Alcan 7 powder and found the load in an old Lyman book. My 1911 had thousands of rounds through it and had begun hammering the slide, so I ordered some Wolf springs in assorted weights. I am running a heavier spring when I fire the 255 gr. rounds, but am considering installing a Shockbuff to help prevent damage. I was aware of the potential for damage with the heavier loads, but the weak spring was battering with 200 gr. boolits, so damage can occur with " standard loads". I enjoy experimenting more than just shooting. DALE:Fire:

[leftiye]

Dale! I'm not too surprised at the load with Alcan 7, but where can you get that stuff????? I've got a can, but it's about 30 years old. Makes a hellacious 38 Special hot load!

[Bear4570]

I've been shooting the Lee 255-RF in.45acp in both revolver and auto for many years. I use an alloy of 50ww/50 Lino which drops about 245. I run them at 900 fps, I use a heavier spring and definitly a recoil spring guide shock buffer.

Great bullet, accurate and hits hard, never had a problem with any gun after many many rounds fired.

I have no doubt it would drop a deer if I do my part, if I were inclined to carry handloads for self defense, this would be the one.

[StrawHat]

Handyrandyrc,

Somewhere in the recesses of my mind I recall an article on heavy loads in the 1911.

This may help jog someone elses memory as I know I no longer have the issue.

It was in an article in a magazine format "book" specific to either the 1911 or the 45ACP. Also included article by George Nonte.

I believe they were called buffalo stompers.

The bottom line was they were (according to the author) a practical alternative to the 45 Long Colt in a self feeding pistol.

I have loaded 255 SWC in the ACP case for my S&W 4" but that wont help you as I seat the bullet out a bit.

Maybe someone else will remember the magazine.

Good luck.