Smoke the mould or use mold release? [Archive]

geargnasher

01-13-2012, 03:25 PM

My opinion based on a whole lot of experience is DO NOT USE EITHER. A thoroughly degreased, clean, and deburred mould is the best-casting mould there is.

Take the Lee instructions and toss them in the trash, get yourself some Bullplate sprue plate lube or synthetic 2-stroke premix oil, and read the info on how to use it in the mould sub-forum. You'll be happy and your mould will last a long time.

Gear

sig2009

01-13-2012, 03:39 PM

Be carefull with the Lee molds. I just shipped one back for evaluation because the cavities became pitted after about 2,000 bullets cast in 40/45 and 9mm.
I'm beginning to have second thoughts with the aluminum vs iron molds now.

Kraschenbirn

01-13-2012, 04:28 PM

Mooseman

01-13-2012, 04:39 PM

I too have been smoking My mold Cavities since I learned to cast in the early 70's.
Its what I was taught and it has always worked for me. Im old school and just Old and set in my ways now.
I had to cast Boolits first so I could then Learn how to reload Properly...
I had a Good Teacher.
Rich

oscar669

01-13-2012, 04:45 PM

I smoke mine if they need it just because I am to cheap to buy the release. Every mold I have is different you have to work with them and find out what it requires to drop good bullets.

DODGEM250

01-13-2012, 04:47 PM

I heat my molds up and then shoot a squirt of WD-40 in the cavity and let it smoke the WD-40 off. This does two things. 1-lubes the cavity and 2- seasons the cavity. I then pour a few "pre-cast" trash bullets, then when you get to actually making the bullets you're going to keep, you open the block and BOOP they just fall out on their own, none of that tapping stuff on the blocks.

stubshaft

01-13-2012, 04:48 PM

I'm with Gear, no need to smoke molds to get them to drop good boolits. I used to do it in the early 70's and have since given it up after learning to do it right.

Shiloh

01-13-2012, 04:49 PM

My experience with LEE molds is to smoke them. After they break in real well, it is no longer necessary. As stated above, thorough cleaning of new molds is a must for good boolits.

Shiloh

dragonrider

01-13-2012, 04:50 PM

Nothing in my cavities but lead. If smoke or mold release is needed then the mold has a problem that needs to be corrected, not covered up.

Freischütz

01-13-2012, 04:56 PM

I used to smoke the cavities but found that it wasn't necessary. Haven't smoked them for about 10 years.

williamwaco

01-13-2012, 04:58 PM

I prefer a clean "raw" mold.

That said, I have encountered Lee molds ( Lee only. ) that I just could not make cast good bullets regardless of temprature - from shiny to severly frosted. Smoking them has always cured the problem. I have never smoked a mold from any other manufacturer.

Curiously, after the smoke layer "wears off" they continue to cast good bullets.

Mold release:
THIS STUFF IS NASTY.
DO NOT SPRAY IT INTO THE CAVITIES OF YOUR MOLD.
ANY MOLD.

That said, it does make a passible sprue plate lube if you spray it lightly while the cavities are filled with newly cast bullets. It is not as good as Bull Plate.

If you don't already have a can, don't buy one.

.

Char-Gar

01-13-2012, 05:00 PM

I have been using NEI Mold Prep since 1985 with complete satisfaction on brass, aluminum and iron molds.

Iron Mike Golf

01-13-2012, 05:00 PM

I am wondering if smoking a new mold helps wick out that last little bit of machining lube.

I have only used iron and brass molds. No release agent used at all.

I do have a couple of aluminum RB molds (Lee and TC), though. Need to try them.

I would use smoke if I wanted to make a boolit a trifle smaller, though.

sundog

01-13-2012, 05:24 PM

Aluminium gets a smoke if needed. Steel/iron/meehanite get release agent, if needed, but only with a qtip, then buffed with the dry end, never sprayed directly into cavities or mould faces. I've run across a few moulds over the years that absolutely refuse to drop a decent boolit without a little help, so I help, and they work fine. Live is too short to screw around with stuff that don't work.

I agree with the others that if you have a properly cleaned and deburred mould that will drop a good boolit, do not use anything.

I've heard several people say that anything added makes a boolit smaller, but you cannot prove it by me if it done very judiciously. Ever try to measure the thickness of a thin veil of smoke?

ShooterAZ

01-13-2012, 05:30 PM

Hmm...sort of a mixed bag. I think I will try a clean unsmoked mold first next time... and go from there. I am also going to remove the permatex anti seize that I have been using on the pins and pivots, and apply a little synthetic 2 cycle oil. I bought four molds, only tried one so far. Thanks for the replies and advise.

JonB_in_Glencoe

01-13-2012, 05:39 PM

Noob here... looking for a few pointers...Opinions on which is best, molds are Lee aluminum. Thanks!

Shooter,
Welcome to the best cast boolit forum...Period.
BTW, this is a a great question for a newbie.
As you've read by now, there is a split in the casting world on whether to smoke a Lee mold as per Lee's instructions OR to ignore said instructions.

although I am kind of new to casting (about a year and a half since my first boolit)
I own about 30 Lee 2 cavity molds. Some I recently bought new, some I bought/traded from members here that have some age to them.

I have learned here that Lee had some Quality issues in the past. I'm not sure when they have fixed this, but all (except one) that I have bought new in the last year have been great. I clean the new mold with a toothbrush and Dawn dishwashing soap, dry it, then preheat mold and start casting good looking boolits that drop freely from the mold. I suggest this is what you do before smoking a mold or applying a mold release agent. If you get a mold where the boolits stick, read the "leementing" thread before smoking a mold or applying a mold release agent. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=654 Because if you can find a burr and remove it OR polish it out, then there is no need for smoke or other releaser. If you have continued problems, then by all means start smoking it...it may help.

Also, ignore Lee's instructions about using their lube on the sprue plate...it'll make a mess. A great sprue plate lube is "Zip Lube" sold by a vendor here (randyrat), it's inexpensive and a small amount will last a lifetime. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=131679

ku4hx

01-13-2012, 06:43 PM

I tried both smoking and mold release some decades ago and got the same results with both: discolored molds and great boolits. Without either I had clean molds and great boolits. So I stopped doing either.

462

01-13-2012, 06:43 PM

dragonrider

01-13-2012, 06:56 PM

"I am wondering if smoking a new mold helps wick out that last little bit of machining lube."

No it does not.

Bret4207

01-13-2012, 07:11 PM

If you absolutely, positively have to put something other than hot lead in your mould, then use smoke. And don't go any too heavy with it. Anything in the mould is an insulator (very important with aluminum) and if it's heavy enough it will make a measurable difference on boolit diameter.

The proper way to treat a mould, any mould, is covered in the Leementing stickies. Very stubborn moulds sometimes need lapping.

With Lee moulds in particular, you will find it often takes 3-4 heating/cooling cycles for it to start working right. I don't know if it's left over oils cooking out or some seasoning aspect, but it seems to happen with monotonous regularity.

mpmarty

01-13-2012, 07:17 PM

Back in the sixties and seventies I used to smoke my iron molds. Always got undersize boolits too. Now I scrub the mold clean and put nothing but hot lead into it. No problems and boolits come out full diameter too.

Shiloh

01-13-2012, 07:20 PM

Curiously, after the smoke layer "wears off" they continue to cast good bullets.
.

Been my experience as well.
I've also turned boolits in the cavities with COMET cleanser to deburr. That helped also.

Shiloh

Salmon-boy

01-13-2012, 09:22 PM

Clean THOROUGHLY and then smoke lightly.. LeeMenting is potentially necessary..

geargnasher

01-13-2012, 09:26 PM

"I am wondering if smoking a new mold helps wick out that last little bit of machining lube."

No it does not.

After reading over and over for several years here that people smoke the moulds when new and then don't seem to need to after that I was leaning toward the wicking oil theory. No matter the make, aluminum moulds always seem to do better after a couple of thermal cycles, I just figured it was the machining oil in the pores. Maybe it's miroscopic burrs, maybe it's a faint surface oxide, I don't know. What makes you say the soot doesn't work by soaking oil out of the metal?

Gear

1bluehorse

01-13-2012, 09:30 PM

With my Lyman and RCBS iron molds I just clean them and thats all thats needed. I have a few Lee molds and every one has had "dropping" problems. I used to smoke them and that helped, but after reading (somewhere) about lapping them with compound I tried that. Used Beartooth Bullets lapping compound on a bullet with a screw centered in it, spun it with my electric drill a bit and "voila" work great now. No more sticky. YMMV..

Recluse

01-13-2012, 11:54 PM

Smoke the mould or use mold release?

I've never found a reason to do either, regardless of the mould's make or compoition. Read the Leementing stickies.

Another vote for tossing Lee's instruction sheet.

I Lee-ment my RCBS and Lyman molds as well.

Lee's instructions aren't worth the paper they're printed on--and that applies to their instructions on ANYTHING. Mostly hype and hoopla with almost no "how to" in terms of assembly or making things actually work.

I'm not bashing Lee, but rather the nimrod/s who write their instructions.

:coffee:

dromia

01-14-2012, 04:39 AM

mroliver77

01-14-2012, 06:33 AM

I've been smokin' my moulds for nearly 40 years 'cause it's the way I was taught to do it. That's what's always worked for me and I'm a firm believer in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

(As a side note, though, 'bout the only thing I've found any of the spray-on releases useful for is as a preservative coating for my ingot moulds between smelting sessions.)

Bill
This reminds me of the young wife who cut the end of a ham off before putting it in the roaster. Her hubby seeing this and being the curious sort asked the reason for this. "This is the way my Mom always did it and I was taught the same" his wife answered.

This was not good enough for a man wanting to know the how and why of everything so he pushed the issue. Not having an answer she called her Ma and asked the purpose. " My Mother always did a ham this way and I learned from her. I have done it this way for 40 years!" Was Ma's answer.

Still not satisfied the young hubby pushed for the reason. Did it let flavor in? Did it encourage juice flow? Was it to get rid of fat? Ma had no answer but said she would call Grandma and ask.

After getting Granny on the line and explaining the situation Granny thought for a while about it. "Oh...." she answered, "We were married and took up housekeeping during the depression. Things were awful hard and money scarce. All my cooking utensils were hand me downs and I had but one pan suitable for roasting. It was not long enough for a whole ham to fit in it so I cut the end off to make it fit. I did it that way so long I just unconsciously kept doing it!" [smilie=b:

Mooseman

01-14-2012, 07:09 AM

Why I Smoke the mold cavity...
You can use the smoke from a match, a cigarette lighter, or an acetylene torch to coat the cavity of the mold to help cast good quality bullets. The thin layer of carbon left by smoking acts as an insulator and slows cooling of the melt in the mold. The delayed cooling helps to eliminate some casting problems and sticking.We called it "Poor Mans Graphite"and My teacher(God rest his soul) was adamant about doing the job right.He claimed it sealed the pores in the metal too.I had to cast my Boolits right and size and lube them BEFORE he would teach me reloading itself.
I used to use a carbide sight blackener to smoke the mold cavity before starting to cast,Now I use a kitchen match due to the availability of Carbide and it is surprising how much it improves the quality of the bullets cast from some molds.
You only Lightly smoke it once before casting...you dont want a silly thick layer of creosote in the cavity causing a smaller boolit.
Many Many articles and Casting books talk about this and have for years.

Will this change your mind if you dont smoke em Now ?...Not hardly, but the reason to do it is good enough for me and my Boolits. And Lord Knows I shoot a Lot of them.

odfairfaxsub

01-14-2012, 07:49 AM

i used to use mold release. costed me and my dad 5 dollars a can for some that would spray evenly. ran out......needed something bad for the new molds. cheaper quality home depot stuff sparyed to heavily. oh well clean it out. got the lighter out. using soot from a match or a lighter never affected the size of the bullet unlike mold release and it cost free no money at all. i use the cheap stuff i got from homedepot for spru release, underside sprue lube, and sprue hinge lube. that it works great. and helps seal that stuff off.

adrians

01-14-2012, 08:15 AM

iv'e tried smoking-----spraying on aluminum molds and the only thing those "methods" did was make me spend (waste) time cleaning the stuff off.[smilie=l:
i don't do it anymore just leement my alums ( if needed ) and go to casting.
some molds need a little help to release so a light lap with comet as mentioned above usually surfises.
no biggie....:evil::coffee::twisted:

lbaize3

01-14-2012, 01:49 PM

Most of my molds cast without any release or smoke necessary. However there are several that simply require a release agent. I have tried the Kroil mold release and the Frankford Arsenal spray release and neither was what I needed. Then I tried smoking with a wood match and the soot actually built up enough to effect the size of the boolit. I finally discovered the Bic lighter gave the best smoke, light and easily applied. It gave those reluctant molds just the amount of release agent I needed to make casting more effective for me.

mdi

01-14-2012, 01:54 PM

Yesterday I cast about 200 Lee 240 gr. .44 cal. T/L bullets. I used a mix of stick-on wheel weights and clip-on wheel weights, 50-50. Most all boolits dropped fine, or with a light tap. NO SMOKE OR SPRAY. I've only been casting for about 10 years and at first I tried all the junk to get boolits to fall outta the mold, and some worked. Some sprays left a "rough" finish on the boolits and some just weren't worth the trouble. I've learned that cleanliness of mold (1st and foremost), and proper temps (mold and melt) are key to good, easy to drop boolits. When new, some of my molds needed a bit of care (comet "lapping", and good cleaning w/brakeclean), but now the only thing I put in my molds is molten lead...

Reload3006

01-14-2012, 01:54 PM

When I first started casting back in 78ish I used Frankford arsenal mold release. At least I think that is what it was. It seemed to work. Years later I smoked my molds. IT seamed to work. Now I wash them in soap and water dry them well preheat them and just use them with no issues. Al Brass and Iron. they all drop well and make good boolits. IMO neither smoke or release is necessary. But if it makes you feel better more confident etc then it certainly will not hurt anything either.

dragonrider

01-14-2012, 03:54 PM

After reading over and over for several years here that people smoke the moulds when new and then don't seem to need to after that I was leaning toward the wicking oil theory. No matter the make, aluminum moulds always seem to do better after a couple of thermal cycles, I just figured it was the machining oil in the pores. Maybe it's miroscopic burrs, maybe it's a faint surface oxide, I don't know. What makes you say the soot doesn't work by soaking oil out of the metal?

Gear

Many here believe that oils from manufacturing soak into the molds, in the case of lyman iron and Lee aluminum molds that may be true, but in the case of NOE or MP aluminum or brass molds it is not. The Aluminum or brass used for these molds is not pourous, once such a mold has been washed well with dish soap and hot water the oil is gone. Problems after such a cleaning are not because of oil but with heat, both alloy and molds temps, or technique or mold preparation, deburring, leementing etc. Too many of us blame the oil because it is easier to do than to search for other problems.

Sonnypie

01-14-2012, 04:11 PM

I will on occasion smoke my lee molds.
It sez to do that in the instruction sheet.
I use a candle. And have since I was casting toy soldiers in the 1950's as a kid.

To me, throwing away the manufactures instruction sheet is akin to throwing away your reloading manuals. Not real smart.

OH, and the tiniest drap of candle wax keeps the sprue plate swinging and the hinge pins clacking just fine for me. Candle butt lube....

DLCTEX

01-14-2012, 04:30 PM

I haven't found a good mould lube to take the place of Bullplate, haven't tried 2 cycle oil. I found that candle wax, bullet lube, and other such baked on a carbon buildup that had to be removed eventually. Bullplate does not. I tried smoking moulds because it was recommended to me by my great grandfather when casting toy soldiers as a kid. After learning to Leement moulds (iron or aluminum) I haven't needed to use anything. Smoke and mould release (worst) cause undersized boolits for me.

trk

01-14-2012, 04:59 PM

I used to smoke the moulds. What I do now works very well.

I put a bit of titanium dioxide (powder mixed with a high-temp grease) on the underside of the sprue plate and on the mating surfaces of the mould. NOTHING in the cavity. It works - the bullets drop out. I don't understand it, it just works. Iron and aluminum moulds.

MtGun44

01-14-2012, 11:36 PM

Scrub the cavity with a bit of Comet and a toothbrush to get it really clean and remove
small burrs. No need to smoke.

Bill

cbrick

01-15-2012, 12:04 AM

Neither!

Either is a silly thing to do but if it makes you feel better by all means you should, that's about all it will do is make you feel good. Well, make you feel good and give you the opportunity to clean the mold again.

Candle or any other wax is the worst to use, almost like using oil.

Most people smoke a mold for bullet release but the biggest reasons for bullets not dropping is the alloy too hot and or too cool a mold. The reason bullets fall from the mold is that as they cool they shrink, if your alloy is too hot it takes them much longer for the bullet to cool/shrink enough fall out well. The mold being too cool will also hold bullets.

A clean, bur free mold is the easiest, best casting mold. Smoking is simply an attempt to cover up and hide a problem, much better to fix the problem as opposed to hiding it.

Rick

Sonnypie

01-15-2012, 12:45 PM

... And do be sure to throw away the manufactures directions for use. [smilie=1:

dromia

01-15-2012, 04:55 PM

geargnasher

01-15-2012, 05:05 PM

Now me, I always make a point of reading, re-reading and understanding the instructions thoroughly before using any product.

That is so that I know exactly what I am ignoring when using said product. ;)

Precisely!

As I loudly proclaim to my wife any time I'm assembling a Chinese product or installing a new appliance, "I'm reading the instructions all the way through, in all four languages, with comprehension, even if I choose to completely ignore them in the end".

Gear

geargnasher

01-15-2012, 05:09 PM

Many here believe that oils from manufacturing soak into the molds, in the case of lyman iron and Lee aluminum molds that may be true, but in the case of NOE or MP aluminum or brass molds it is not. The Aluminum or brass used for these molds is not pourous, once such a mold has been washed well with dish soap and hot water the oil is gone. Problems after such a cleaning are not because of oil but with heat, both alloy and molds temps, or technique or mold preparation, deburring, leementing etc. Too many of us blame the oil because it is easier to do than to search for other problems.

I was thinking mainly of the Lee materials as well. My Accurate, NOE, and Mihec moulds all came to me with a light coating of protective oil that washed off easily with brake cleaner and never gave me a moment of trouble casting. But then again I know how to control temperatures for good boolits.

Gear

Poodleshooter

01-16-2012, 03:31 AM

All of my Lee mold cavities are smoked with a lighter or candle when new, then graphite lubed under the sprue plate. I don't add any other wax,oil or other lube. For the most part, it's rare that I ever do much else to them, aside from a bit of smoking every now and again. I seldom have sticking problems except on those with a core pin (usually muzzleloader bullets that I cast quite hot).

trixter

01-16-2012, 12:49 PM

Scrub the cavity with a bit of Comet and a toothbrush to get it really clean and remove
small burrs. No need to smoke.

Bill
:goodpost:

This is the third mold from Lee, C310-155-F, the other two are 6 cavity, and the above scenario was what got me going after trying various smokin' and lubin' scenarios and almost ruining them.

1: Remove from box, make a b-line to the sink
2: get out the Comet, and an old toothbrush
3: get the mold and toothbrush wet, add a LITTLE Comet
4: scrub till your fingers hurt
5: rinse very well, LOTZ-O-HOT-WATER
6: DRY very well
7: Be Happy, Don't Worry
8: Make Boolits.

Trust me it works, and works well.

geargnasher

01-16-2012, 01:31 PM

+1 Trixter. I like to make a few strokes across the sharp edges of the cavities with the toothbrush loaded with Comet or Bar Keeper's Friend to break the sharp, burred edges. A couple of before-and-after scrutinies with a loupe and bright light made a believer out of me on that one, as did before-and-after casting sessions where the hinge pin required little to no beating to get the boolits to pop out after the crosswise scrubbing.

I've also had good luck running a new mould through the dishwasher with a normal load of dishes after all the intial hand cleaning/inspection/prep, extended hot water/detergent sessions seem to help, as does boiling the mould in a saucepan full of distilled water for about ten minutes.

Gear

Ecramer

01-18-2012, 02:22 PM

I always use a good mould release agent (currently the "Frankford Arsenal" brand from Midway). I used to smoke the mould, but I find the mould release agent handy. It may be true that a properly cleaned, deburred, washed, rinsed and degreased mould will cast bullets as good as one using mould release -- but to achieve that, you ahve clean, debur, wash, rinse and degrease. I give mine a brief shot of mould release and start heating them up -- I want to cast and shoot, not be a bottle washer.

pastorcurtis

01-18-2012, 05:58 PM

I'm also new and had a terrible experience with Frankline Arsenal's spray stuff. It was great for my muffin tins to make ingots, but it built up in the mold and was a bear to get clean again. I think I'll take the advice to just get it quite clean and start casting.

snuffy

01-19-2012, 12:03 AM

Most of my molds are lee aluminum. When they arrive, I dunk them in hot soapy water,(dawn), then put them on the stove and boil that very soapy water for 10-15 minutes. Then a rinse in very hot tap water, then let flash dry. Molds are then mounted to handles and pre-heated up to 450 degrees on my hotplate while the lead comes up to 700.

I seldom have any trouble with boolits dropping from the molds. If one gives me problems, I WILL lee-ment it. I use comet as well.

My MP molds are also treated the same way as to getting the preservative oil off. Boiling soapy water. ALL my Miha molds drop boolits as soon as the mold is opened. I never have had to lee-ment a MP mold.

I too bit on the advertising hype about the FA drop-out mold release. I tried it on one lee 2 cav mold that was giving me fits with releasing boolits. It didn't help! lee-menting did the trick, then I had to find out how to remove that FA ap-cray.

One thing to note; If you do use that FA ap-cray, know that spraying it on the face of the mold will plug up the air channels on the face of the mold. Poor boolit fill out will be the result, caused by the trapped air in the cavity while the lead is pouring into it. The same goes for using something to smoke the cavities, just not as much.

Another thing about, if you must smoke a mold, to NOT use a candle. The flame of a candle has vaporized wax in it, same goes for a wood/paper match, they use a dab of wax right behind the head to make it burn at first. A butane cigarette or grill lighter gives off clean carbon.