Which cast bullet manual to buy? Newbie Question

[7.62Man]

Hello all;

I have been lurking around for a while and decided to post for the first time. I recently purchase a nef handi-rifle in .45-70. Living in Canada ammunition is expensive, it cost me $40 for 20 in the .45-70. I have reloaded for a while and am planing on starting to cast my own bullets.

I plan on using Lee stuff for the begining as the lyman stuff is out of my price range. (Baby on the way in Sept!) I was planning to purchase the Lee 405 grain flant and hollow base mold along with the ladle and ingot mold. Also I plan on purchasing the largest lee pot I can afford.(more than likely the 10lbs)

I know that the Lee molds will wear out but it the best I can afford at the moment.

My questions are what is a good cast bullet manual for a begining? I have the Lee reloading manual and it is ok but I am looking for a little more information about loads for the .45-70. Also what pressure range should I load the NEF for?(marlin? trapdoor?)

This may be a dump question but is a 405 grain flat good enough to bring a moose down with a clean double lung shot? what about a black bear?

I was told that large slow moving slug have lots of penitration?

Looking for a little guidance from you seasoned pro's.

Thank
Bill

[Buckshot]

"I have been lurking around for a while and decided to post for the first time."

..............Good on ya, we don't bite.

"Living in Canada ammunition is expensive, it cost me $40 for 20 in the .45-70."

.............Holy Hanna on a pogo stick!

"and am planing on starting to cast my own bullets. "

..............Smart man there.

"I plan on using Lee stuff for the begining as the lyman stuff is out of my price range."

..............The Lee will do ya very well.

"(Baby on the way in Sept!)"

...............Oh God no, how did THAT happen! :-)

"I was planning to purchase the Lee 405 grain flant and hollow base mold"

..............Okay, doing good so far.

"along with the ladle and ingot mold."

.............Don't. IMHO the ladel is crap, sorry. Don't spend now for an ingot mould. Steal, er I mean beg something similar off the wife, or go to the thrift store for a muffin tin or something.

"Also I plan on purchasing the largest lee pot I can afford.(more than likely the 10lbs)"

.............Don't. Put that ingot mould money with whatever else and save toward a 20 pounder. Your wanting to cast big ole 45 cal rifle boolits and you need, nay you MUST have a 20 pounder. Take the money from the kids college fund. He/she won't need it for 19 years and you can sneak it back in later.

"I know that the Lee molds will wear out but it the best I can afford at the moment."

...............Don't apologize for using Lee stuff. Just do like the rest of us. Grin and bear it.

"My questions are what is a good cast bullet manual for a begining?"

..............Really only one out there dealing in depth with the voo doo of casting boolits and that's the Lyman manual.

"Also what pressure range should I load the NEF for?(marlin? trapdoor?)"

.............Depends upon how frisky ya wanna feel after a range session, or how sympathetic you think the wife will be. When the left hand side of the rifle is covered in slobber, you know you've arrived.

"This may be a dump question but is a 405 grain flat good enough to bring a moose down with a clean double lung shot? what about a black bear?"

.............You betcha. If it were me and I had a tag for a Moose I might consider a 450 or 500gr slug. Just a bit more insurance. A 405 on a black bear, no sweat. Lottsa Buffalo went to the big prarie in the sky after absorbing a 45 cal lead boolit launched at 1200 fps or so.

"Looking for a little guidance from you seasoned pro's."

..............Is that like 'Old Farts'?

.............Buckshot

[Maven]

Bill, To partially answer your question, Lyman's "Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd Ed." has lots of good advice and loads for the .45-70 (Springfields, Win. 1886's & Marlins, and Rugers #1 & #3). Another, more current, book on cast bullets is Joe Brennan's, which you get as a premium for joining the Cast Bullet Association. Understand that it is about cast bullets and not a reloading manual. As for the intensity of the loads to develop, your rifle's action precludes using loading data for the Rugers. However, the loads for both the Springfield and the Marlin are more than adequate for your needs. Let accuracy, pressure signs (flattened and/or pierced primers, difficult extraction, etc.) and your shoulder and cheek tell you which is better. I.e., the heavier loads for the Marlin & 1886 Win. will smack you quite hard in a light rifle: I have a Marlin and I don't use them.

[Buckshot]

...............Heh, heh! I beat Maven :-)

.............Buckshot

[No_1]

Posting so early in the evening and kinda spry to boot. Something good happen to you today brother?


Robert


"I have been lurking around for a while and decided to post for the first time."

..............Good on ya, we don't bite.

"Living in Canada ammunition is expensive, it cost me $40 for 20 in the .45-70."

.............Holy Hanna on a pogo stick!

"and am planing on starting to cast my own bullets. "

..............Smart man there.

"I plan on using Lee stuff for the begining as the lyman stuff is out of my price range."

..............The Lee will do ya very well.

"(Baby on the way in Sept!)"

...............Oh God no, how did THAT happen! :-)

"I was planning to purchase the Lee 405 grain flant and hollow base mold"

..............Okay, doing good so far.

"along with the ladle and ingot mold."

.............Don't. IMHO the ladel is crap, sorry. Don't spend now for an ingot mould. Steal, er I mean beg something similar off the wife, or go to the thrift store for a muffin tin or something.

"Also I plan on purchasing the largest lee pot I can afford.(more than likely the 10lbs)"

.............Don't. Put that ingot mould money with whatever else and save toward a 20 pounder. Your wanting to cast big ole 45 cal rifle boolits and you need, nay you MUST have a 20 pounder. Take the money from the kids college fund. He/she won't need it for 19 years and you can sneak it back in later.

"I know that the Lee molds will wear out but it the best I can afford at the moment."

...............Don't apologize for using Lee stuff. Just do like the rest of us. Grin and bear it.

"My questions are what is a good cast bullet manual for a begining?"

..............Really only one out there dealing in depth with the voo doo of casting boolits and that's the Lyman manual.

"Also what pressure range should I load the NEF for?(marlin? trapdoor?)"

.............Depends upon how frisky ya wanna feel after a range session, or how sympathetic you think the wife will be. When the left hand side of the rifle is covered in slobber, you know you've arrived.

"This may be a dump question but is a 405 grain flat good enough to bring a moose down with a clean double lung shot? what about a black bear?"

.............You betcha. If it were me and I had a tag for a Moose I might consider a 450 or 500gr slug. Just a bit more insurance. A 405 on a black bear, no sweat. Lottsa Buffalo went to the big prarie in the sky after absorbing a 45 cal lead boolit launched at 1200 fps or so.

"Looking for a little guidance from you seasoned pro's."

..............Is that like 'Old Farts'?

.............Buckshot

[Maven]

Buckshot, And we're on the same page to boot!

[threett1]

Actually with straight wheel weights my Lee 405 hollow base throws them at 420gr. Get that going anywheres over 1400fps and the only thing that will stop that slug is when it hits the ground. My stash of aa2230c sends them well. aa 2460 is about the same thing. I put a softer recoil pad on my handi, you might be tougher than me though.:mrgreen:

[3sixbits]

Book to buy? Should read, Books to buy? "JACKETED PERORMANCE WITH CAST BULLETS" By Veral Smith, "THE HANDBOOK FOR COMMERCIAL BULLET CASTING" By Paul B. Moore. These two books will do more to put you miles ahead of the herd when it comes to producing the best bullets and finding the material you will need.

[Buckshot]

Posting so early in the evening and kinda spry to boot. Something good happen to you today brother?
Robert

:hijack:

.............A couple. Passed the rough framing, plumbing and electrical inspection on the bathroom addition, my free 87 Dodge Dakota 4x4 passed it's smog inspection with flying colors so I can get it registered in my name, put up the balance of the insulation in the bathroom addition, and finally handed off a set of room addition plans to a truss company so I can get the truss calc's for the plans submission to the city.

I feel so, so................accomplished :-) Now I'm having a beer as I deserve it.

...............Buckshot

[leftiye]

7.62..... The 405 grainer is the most popular boolit in 45-70 caliber. The lee version looks just like the lyman and RCBS versions (the non gas check ones). Plain base is probably fine, as in the seven Lb. Handi, you'll definitely start having problems with recoil before you juice it up too much for a plain base to shoot accurately. Alternatively, a softer alloy (not too soft) will still expand muy bueno at 1400 fps even. 5 to 1 lead to tin for instance, maybe with about5% antimony. Or 50/50 wheelweights/pure lead with some (5%) Tin added. Tin makes the boolit tougher, so it doesn't fall apart upon impact. Those guys back in 1873 knew what they were diong when it came to killing power!

[carpetman]

My vote for a book would go to the Lyman reloading manual. Verals Smiths book in my opinion is a pamphlet and certainly did not have benefit of spell check or proof reading.

[John Boy]

Bill, here are a couple of good online reads about how to cast:
Goatlips Black Powder Tips (http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=2590.0) ... for the nuts and bolts of casting

The Eight Phase Casting Cycle (http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=19.0)

[Bigjohn]

Welcome to the asylum! Where the inmates run the place.[smilie=1: :-D :-D :Fire:

I have the LEE 405 gr HB boolit mold and would caution you to inspect the resulting casts carefully. It may just be technique but alot of mine have an air cavity in the bases at the tip of the base plug. Trapped air is the cause. More than 50% get rejected from visual more after weighing.

I you want something lite to start try the 450gr; I have and shot heaps through carbine length MARTINI. Good shooting, not too rough with the shoulder and will knock down most game here in Australia, and we do have some BIG animals.

Save and buy the 20lb pot otherwise you will wish you did later.

John

[boommer]

HI 7.62 man I would just start out with turkey fryer burner and a old pot and propane this way you can melt down wheel weights and such!! because melting down materials in a electric pot is a pain in the rear ! I do alot of my casting by dipping out of the pot you can go to thrift stores and pick this stuff up. I can say this
buy a lyman dipper you need the large dipper for the bigger slugs. then at the dollar stores buy the big spoon with the holes in it to skim of weight clips and big spoon to
skim with spoons 2$ why ask wife saves war of the spoons!! and dont ask for pot!!!
I say this because unless you buy pure materials you will need this to make life a little easier but you can dip your slugs out of the pot and this works great . then look
for muffin pans ect just something uniform to make ingots (thrift store 1.00 each ? )
and when i first started casting did not have thermometer and I worked though it
and got good slugs just did not want wrinkles or heavy frost lyman thermo nice though now and as far as lee molds they work just fine I have all types good and bad in all !~!!!! and the lyman cast bullet handbook is what you need. I FEEL THIS WILL GET YOU A GOOD START FOR A GOOD BUDGET PRICE

[Larry Gibson]

7.62Man

Lots of good advise above. With the NEF (sorry, don't have one so I'm not sure of the pressure level) I would suggest the Lee 340 gr 457-340-F for general shooting and deer/bear (black type). I've both bullets and the flat based 340 gr bullet is more accurate and has the larger meplat which is prefered for hunting. The difference in weight is minimal and any critter shot won't know the difference. It is also much, much easier to cast than the 405 HB bullet. Further the HB bullet is a single cavity and the 340 bullet comes in a double cavity now I believe.

I would also suggest the Lee 500 gr C457-500-F bullet for elk, moose and the big bears. Yes it is a GC bullet but 1K of GCs for a hunting bullet will last you a long time. The advantage here is you can cast them of a very soft alloy and push them faster than plain based bullets cast hard with excellent hunting accuracy. This bullet cast such will give excellent expansion along with plenty of penetration. I've been using it for 30 years as such. I've gone through less than 1K of GC's with it.

BTW; I've also been using Lee moulds for 30+ years and have yet to "wear" one out. Most "worn out" ones I've seen were actually damaged not worn out. The damage most often is caused because the sprue plates are beaten open with a mallet or some such. I maintain my moulds, keep them properly lubricated, the pins and screws adjusted correctly and don't use a mallet on the sprue plate. I wear a thick leather work glove on the right hand and open the sprue plate with that hand. The first sprue or two may require a mallet (I use a plastic one) but after the mould/sprue plate is warmed up the sprue is easily cut with a twist of the sprue plate by the leather gloved hand.

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

All good recommendations, with Lyman heading the list. However with that said, it is good to have all the reloading manuals, and free reloading pamphlets that you can afford or get your hands on. That includes the old out of date ones that you sometimes find at gun shows and on e-bay. It is good to be able to look at a variety of data, and be able to compare. Sometimes a bit confusing I will admit, but that is what this forum is for-----to get opinions and help make decisions!
1Shirt!:coffee: :coffee:

[7.62Man]

Thank-you for all the advise!

After reading all your suggestions I plan on purchasing cast iron pot to melt down the lead. I have a turkey frier in the shed and a full tank of propane.:-D Also hit the dollar stores in town and got myself a nice cheap loaf pan and ladle and big spoon with holes in it to skin of the metal clips. (total cost so far is $50!:-D )

I will purchase the lee molds suggested and lyman cast bullet manual.

Once again thank-you!
You sure have helped out a novice!
Bill

[Shawrco]

I use a 4-burner cast iron propane "stove" (I belive Tractor Supply sells them) and cast iron dutch ovens to melt in and cast from. I like the Rowell ladles best because the way they are made the alloy comes from the bottom of the dipper into the spout leaving any crud from the pot floatin on top.Bill Ferguson (The Antimony Man) sells them and also Buffalo Arms. Bill posts a lot on the CB-L elist at Yahoo Groups. Have fun.

[birdhunters]

Way to read between the lines and interpet Kanuck Buckshot

[wills]

You may wish to cogitate on this while awaiting the arrival of the Lyman Manual.
http://www.longrangebpcr.com/8Phases.htm
http://www.longrangebpcr.com/Part1.htm
http://www.longrangebpcr.com/Part2.htm