Levergun/Cast Boolit Hunt Indiana - now or never

[Old Ironsights]

The Pistol Cartridge Rifle Proposal

The final disposition Pistol Cartridge Rifle proposal will be decided at the NRC meeting on Monday, March 26 at 6 p.m. (Local Time) at the Garrison Conference Center at Fort Harrison State Park in Indianapolis.

Time for emailing, phone calls and letters have been extended until March 31 - but please submit your comments before the March 26 meeting.

Ladies and gentlemen,

It is CRUNCH TIME - the opposition (both the anti-gun/anti hunting extremists & the Indiana and anti-rifle faction) are vigorously opposing this. The random Public identifies Deer Hunting with ALL hunting - and it will set BAD precident to have a State imply that a particular type or class of firearm is "unsuitable" for hunting.

I would like to ask each and everyone on here that has an interest in this proposal to contact the NRC with your input, feelings and data, especially data even if you have already contacted them before.

This is about the FREEDOM to CHOOSE between ballistically equivilent tools, and should be framed as such.

The proposed deer firearm season rule change language reads:
- The rifle cartridge must:
(A) have a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357) diameter or larger;
(B) have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and
(C) have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches.

Please do not email about the .30-30, .35 Rem, .444 or .45-70. While I understand and sympathise, that will NOT help this pass. The LeverEvolution pulled them out of the equasion by extending the range envelope.

Comments can be e-mailed to either or both:

jkane@nrc.in.gov - who gathers the input and catergorizes it.

http://www.in.gov/nrc/contact/

If you ever want to hunt indiana with somthing other than a Slug Gun, muzzleloader or Pistol, please do your hunting civic duty and take a few minutes out of your time to make that email.

Thanks.

[fatnhappy]

2 years ago NY opened a sizeable chunk of upstate NY to rifle hunting. These areas have long been "slug gun" only. The results were one of the safest deer seasons ever. The NY department of environmental conservation article is still available online.

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/environmentdec/2006a/deerharvest022106.html

[bruce drake]

As a Hoosier myself, I felt obligated to send my letter to the Commission. I'm hoping that other Hoosiers submit their letters as well, so that we can rectify this error in the hunting regulations finally. I always thought it was idiotic that I could use a Centerfire rifle when I was shooting coyotes and groundhogs but when it came to deer (or coyotes during deer season) I had to switch to a shotgun or muzzleloader.

Bruce

[Ranch Dog]

The Pistol Cartridge Rifle Proposal

The proposed deer firearm season rule change language reads:
- The rifle cartridge must:
(A) have a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357) diameter or larger;
(B) have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and
(C) have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches.

Old Ironsights...

I sent the NRC comments in favor of the rule. I live in Texas but hope to sell you fellows a lot of molds for your 44 Mags. Most of all, this is the right thing and about time. I also contacted Marlin Firearms with this information as they should be interested, if not already following it.

Now a shameless plug.. my TLC432-265-RF and TLC432-300-RF will fit nicely in your 44 Mags. The overall length for the 265-grain boolit is 1.56" and 1.61" for the 300-grain boolit. They will be ready in April.

[Ranch Dog]

I also took the liberty of posting a link to this thread at MarlinOwners in the 1894 forum (http://www.marlinowners.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=201070#201070) and will do the same at Shooter's Forum (http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?p=261974#post261974).

[Old Ironsights]

Thanks Ranch! I was going to do Shooters today, but I'll let you do my work for me...

I've got plenty of other places to post to - like GlockTalk and AR15....

[Old Ironsights]

Another thing to note, and I'm going to drop this one down to Muzzlestuffers too:

Having been unable to scare people into believing that these cartridges are too powerful, they have pulled out the Kenetic Energy argument - and thereby are putting Traditional PRB in jeproady

These guys are so intent on having control over the Indiana DNR that they are about to sell Traditional Muzzleloaders short... not that they care though, this same bunch is all about inlines, sabots and the rest.

While I KNOW the proposal on the table is not about Traditional Muzzleloading Per-Se, it IS about the right to choose between ballistically equivelent equipment - during the gun season(1), be it PRB, slug gun, pistol or pistol caliber carbine.

If their Kenetic Energy argument stands, this latest attempt by the "no rifles in Indiana" crowd to get their way could have lasting negative reprocussions for Traditional Muzzleloaders.

If you live in Indiana or ever want to hunt in Indiana, whether with Traditional PRB or a Pistol Caliber Carbine, I implore you to take a few moments to take an active stance against any Kenetic Energy argument and send an email to the Department of Natural Resources in support of the Pistol Caliber Carbine proposal (2).

The final disposition Pistol Cartridge Rifle proposal will be decided at the NRC meeting on Monday, March 26 at 6 p.m. (Local Time) at the Garrison Conference Center at Fort Harrison State Park in Indianapolis.

Time for emailing, phone calls and letters have been extended until March 31 - but please submit your comments before the March 26 meeting.

Comments can be e-mailed to either or both:

jkane@nrc.in.gov - who gathers the input and catergorizes it, and/or http://www.in.gov/nrc/contact/

Thanks for your help on this.

Notes:

(1) During "gun" season you are, for now, also allowed to use traditional equipment. as of yet late season "muzzleloader" is not affected.

(2) The proposed deer firearm season rule change language reads:
- The rifle cartridge must:
(A) have a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357) diameter or larger;
(B) have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and
(C) have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches.

Essentially, only regular rimmed revolver-class cartridges will be permitted as they all have a ballistic profile that is substantially equal to slug guns and current muzzleloader "technology". Because of population density, hunter density and terminal range to bult-up areas no "rifle" cartridges will be allowed.

[Ranch Dog]

OI,

I received a gracious reply from Ms. Kane. I will email it to you along with what I sent. Best of luck.

[Old Ironsights]

Thank you! If I can ever convince my near quadraplegic friend to give up his .44 Marlin, I know where to get boolits... :D

[bruce drake]

I've got a reply from Ms. Kane as well. Let's hope the letters help.

Bruce

[whisler]

I sent my e-mail today. It seems strange that anyone who feels that it is acceptable to hunt with a sabot loaded in an in-line muzzle-loader could object to the same bullet contained in the sabot when launched from a breech loading rifle as lacking sufficient kinetic energy.

Hope the e-mails bring a favorable response.

[k8bor]

Done, sent to both locations. I have a sister in law with 40 acres in Mishiwaka I would like to hunt, but don't like the shotgun business. This would be right up my alley.
K8bor

[vmt_hntr]

I have sent 2 e-mails to Ms Kane regarding the above rule cfhanges some time back and am all for it. My first one was regarding the forward thinking of our biologists to add yet another tool to the arsenal for managing Indianas deer herd for the benefit of both hunters and the herd itself. My next e-mail was in regard to why they stopped at 3 restrictions for the calibers for rifles and did not add "straight walled pistol calibers only", to further clarify the intent of the rule change. Maybe what they should have done was list the calibers allowed, as other states have done. I may be nit pickin' at the proposal;and maybe something like that was considered at the initial adoption;but there likely will be someone that will push the envelope when it comes to change. Don't get me wrong....I'm all for this proposal, but more clarification will leave fewer questions to be asked. I'm one of the Rangemasters at Roush Lake Shooting Range near Huntington and have posted info in this regard for others that are not aware of what's likely to become effective for this falls' deer hunting. And more than one shooter/hunter has shown up already to sight in the new deer gun;others have asked a lot of questions in regard to this proposal. I show them the 'Wild Bulletin' regarding this issue and tell them to write/e-mail their comments about it. So far, none have voiced any objection to the proposal...Bob in Indiana

[Old Ironsights]

Actually, as a matter of proving a point I am researching "pushing the envelope". The .357-44 Bain & Davis is where I'm starting my research. Not exactly a common or well known caliber, but interesting.

But I'm not because I want tou build such a custom gun (because that's what it would entail and I'm more than happy with my Rossi 92 in .357) but because I firmly believe that no matter how you wildcat it, you will never get a practical terminal range more than you can get out of an SST or Sabot Muzzleloader from it - especially out of a repeater.

Really though, the "average joe" who wants to use a compliant cartridge rifle is going to buy one of the "big 7" - .357, 44, .45, .454, .480, .500, and maybe .41Mag, but not anything esoteric that will require custom barrels and reloading gear.

[Old Ironsights]

IMy next e-mail was in regard to why they stopped at 3 restrictions for the calibers for rifles and did not add "straight walled pistol calibers only", to further clarify the intent of the rule change.

Because there are at least 3 viable extant compliant bottle necked pistol cartridges: The 38-40, the 44-40 and the .357-44 Bain & Davis.


Maybe what they should have done was list the calibers allowed, as other states have done.

I have already supplied the DNR with an essentially comprehensive list. PM me for the Excel XLS. There are 37 total non European compliant cartridges - 17 of which can be purchased with relative ease locally or over the internet - but only 12 of which are really commercially available in rifle form.


e nit pickin' at the proposal;and maybe something like that was considered at the initial adoption;but there likely will be someone that will push the envelope when it comes to change.

See above. As long as you don't use a Spitzer (which are legal in single-shot TC Hand Rifles, but dangerous in tube fed guns anyway) your terminal range will always be limited by bullet BC.


I'm all for this proposal, but more clarification will leave fewer questions to be asked. I'm one of the Rangemasters at Roush Lake Shooting Range near Huntington and have posted info in this regard for others that are not aware of what's likely to become effective for this falls' deer hunting. And more than one shooter/hunter has shown up already to sight in the new deer gun;others have asked a lot of questions in regard to this proposal. I show them the 'Wild Bulletin' regarding this issue and tell them to write/e-mail their comments about it. So far, none have voiced any objection to the proposal...Bob in Indiana

Thanks for your help. Maybe I'll shoot at Huntington some day and get to meet you. :drinks:

[vmt_hntr]

My list of calibers are a bit shorter than 37......27 by my count;possibly because of other wildcats that are not common(Gary Reeder Wildcats-7),475 Wildey,45 Silouhette,458x1.5Barnes, but non the less viable...my list...
357 Mag 445 Supermag
357-44 Bain & Davis 45 Win Mag
357 Auto Mag 45 Colt
357 Rem Max
357 Supermag 454 Casull
375 Supermag 458 SOCOM
38-40 Win 480 Ruger
10 mm Mag 475 Linebaugh
41 Mag 475 Maximum
414 Supermag 50 Action Express
44 Special 500 Wyoming Express
44-40 Win 500 Linebaugh
44 Auto Mag 500 Maximum
44 Rem Mag 500 S&W Mag
other wildcats are possible, but not viable due to custom nature
Bob in Indiana

[buster]

I sent email last week and got one back from Ms Kane today. I also ordered a new 1894 today.

[vmt_hntr]

For those of us that use Specialty Pistols(T/C Encore, Contender, Rem XP-100, etal), in rifle calibers, begs the question? : How long will it be before these rifle calibers in handguns will be struck down for use in deer hunting? Prolly a mute point to be made with that question, but it could, however unlikely, enter into more rule changes in the future regarding firearms used. Had one fellow at range bring that up recently. All I could say is, not likely...as there are not that many that use them compared to the number of shotgunners and M/L's. The jury will be out on this one for a long time, I hope. For others, that don't use handguns for deer hunting, it might seem odd that we, in Indiana, as well as others in a few other places, can use rifle calibers in handguns and handgun calibers in rifles but not use rifle calibers in rifles. And so it goes...you can still use that 30-06 or 270 Winchester for coyotes or ground hogs but not for deer...
Bob in Indiana

[Old Ironsights]

I suppose it's possible, but I've been arguing against it on 3 counts:

(1) SS Pistol shooters have had an exemplary safety record

(2) The expense, & training necessary to shoot those guns at all tends to exclude the dangerous/slob "hunters"

(3) By nature, Single Shots are not prone to the "rapid-fire-miss" syndrome.

On the Cartridge list: I know that 37 is far in excess of "practical realty", but I wanted the list to be comprehensive "just in case" - especially given that TC guys can have a barrel chambered in anything they can think of - which, of course, adds the "flip side" to the TC argument in that excluding true long-range rifle cartridges would not prevent the use of TCs per se - just require a rebarrel. But I still thimk taking those calibers away from "Hand Rifle" shooters is unnecessary.

[vmt_hntr]

I may not express myself in such detail as yourself, but we sure think along the same lines with this matter. I sure want to keep myself up to date on such matters, not only from a personal perspective, but for what others may ask at the Range. Many others will not even give the big picture a passing thought, as you and I have. I guess we're made a bit differently than others, eh? See ya in the field.....Bob in Indiana

[PPpastordon]

Old Ironsights:
Just thought I would say that I, also, put my 2 cents worth at the site you posted. Will I use the new law if it passes? Yes. But probably not a lot unless my sight gets even worse than it is now. I like handgun hunting.
Personally, I think that if it is legal to own it should be legal to hunt with - and I think a lot more firearms should be legal to own. But that is altogether another issue. This is about Indiana finally "learning to walk" and we are only talking about taking the first step on this walk - I hope.
BTW; I am referring others to this site just because of this thread.

[Old Ironsights]

Detail is good. All the Opposition can do is shout loudly. Unfortunately, often times the Whiner gets the candy just to shut them up.

[LAH]

I wrote to both address'. Hope this goes through. It will be a step in the right direction............Creeker

[LAH]

I sent this:

The proposed deer firearm season rule change language reads:
- The rifle cartridge must:
(A) have a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357)
diameter or larger;
(B) have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and
(C) have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths
(1.625) inches.

I've hunted most my life. Sometimes in the wild, other times in crowded woods. I
see nothing in the above that would cause anymore danger than the firearms
currently used.

God Bless
LA Halstead


And received this:

Dear LA Halstead,

Thank you for your email.

Your comments will be reviewed and added to the Hearing Officer's
Report. I am also forwarding your email to the DNR, Division of Fish
and Wildlife for staff review.

Sincerely,

Jennifer Kane
NRC, Division of Hearings

[whisler]

I got the same reply to my e-mail. Hope it helps! Don't know if I will ever get the chance to hunt in Indiana, but if I do I would like to use my .357 Rossi

[Old Ironsights]

Latest PDF by the INDNR. Dated 4/4/2007.

Looking good...

http://www.ai.org/legislative/iac/20070404-IR-312070023PRA.xml.pdf

[bruce drake]

Congratulations! I'll should be able to deer hunt there with my 357 Mag Lever Action Rossi in a couple years went I retire from the Army.

Bruce