Hi Point vs. Kel-Tec

[Bret4207]

Ok guys, got some possible problems looming this summer. Considering the availble CHEAP options in a homeland defense rifle. Anyone have anything to say re- the Kel-tec 9mm rifle and the Hi Point 9mm carbine? Yeah, thet're ugly and cheap, two things in their favor from my standpoint. Lugged my #4 L-E during my last manhunt. Need something smaller and lighter that'll probably never, ever be used. Thanks.

[45 2.1]

I've shot the Kel-Tec 9mm rifle. The sights are up in the danger zone and don't look all that sturdy. It seemed to be ok, but I really wouldn't want to bet my life or anothers if the S**t really did hit the fan. False economy when it comes to you and yours. Put a little more money into it and have security of mind as well as a fun plinker.

[felix]

If I were a cop, Bret, I would get something most, if not all, folks think is the badest of the bad (in looks, anyway). Bingo! The Uzi! Everybody watches TV, right? Even the bad guys. ... felix

[Bret4207]

6 kid$ guy$, 6 kid$......

[felix]

I have no idea what a Uzi would cost, underground or otherwise. ... felix

[45 2.1]

Give this a look:
http://www.mechtechsys.com/
Much better made and usable for many things and about $300.

[Hackleback]

I think that both Ruger and Marlin (camp 9 or Camper??) make a 9 mm semi auto. Might want to check on these. I would imagine that they would be a bit less $$$ than the Uzi. It lloks like you could provide a bit more smack by "upgrading" to 40 S&W of 45 ACP

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=4701&return=Y

http://www.answers.com/topic/marlin-camp-carbine

[KCSO]

The Kel Tech is a good usable gun and you have the option to mount a red dot sight if needed. The Hi Point is reliable but uses it's own mags and you are limited to 10 rounds. The Kel tech can be ordered to use the same mags as your duty gun (sand W, golock Beretta) Although the sights are not impressive on the Kel Tech I have 3 officers who shoot them and they qualify ever years and have run the combat courses with no problems. The Kel Tech has one other nice feature, it folds. With a loaded Mag in place it takes all of 1 second to unfold the gun and fire your first shot. This lets you carry it in a brief case and unlimber it from the back seat in quick time. If I got one I would opt for the same caliber as my duty weapon and this will streach your range to over 100 yards. At the 100 yard line the Kel Tech will group into 3 1/2" for 5 shots with the factory irons and a red dot will shade 2 1/2" The Kel tech should run you under $300 and is a better gun for the purpose than the Hi Point, especially in cold weather, the HI Point is hard to operate with gloves.

[Larry Gibson]

6 kid$ guy$, 6 kid$......

Have you figured out what causes that yet?


In my younger and poorer LEO days I went on several manhunts armed with a M94 Carbine 30-30 and never felt undergunned. I also used an M1 Carbine and a Mini 14. Any of those can be had for a decent price (the M1 Carbine is fast getting rediculous though), especially if you can get "police price" through your department. However, these days I also suggest the Ruger or Marlin Camp Carbines for ammo and hopefully magazine compatability with your service weapon. If I carried a revolver on duty (and I did for many years - .38 and .357) I would look real seriously at a Rossi or Marlin lever carbine. A W-W factory 125 HP pushes close to 2100 FPS out of a 20" barrel and is devestating to a two legged varmint's heart/lung area. Takes the wind right out of their sails mui pronto.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Tpr Bret

Just thought of something else, I wouldn't hesitate to look at a Russian or Yugo made SKS. With a little bedding, removal of the bayonet and grenade launcher and trigger work (none are hard to do) and using W-W SPs they would make a nice little carry rifle on a manhunt. The slings are already side mounted so they carry slung over the back easily. Ten shots in the rifle and a ten round stripper in your pocket is most often more "firepower" than you'll need. Plenty of power and properly zeroed quite accurate to 300 yards which is much farther than you'd shoot in an LEO context. Just a thought.

Larry Gibson

[Boz330]

What about one of the carbine conversions that go on a 1911, Glock or other frame. They are available in 9MM, 38 Super, 40, & 45. They have a 16in. barrel so would be compact and could use the bottom end from something that you might already have. Just a thought.

Bob

[Bret4207]

Thanks guys. I hadn't thought of the SKS. We're going to Glock 45 GAPs so there aren't any carbines available that I know of. I thought of using my '94 30WCF or Rossi '92 44 Mag, but I kind of need something I can stash out of sight of the "brass" since we aren't exactly supposed to carry stuff like that. The search continues.

[carpetman]

You have to be able to stash it so that the "brass" doesn't see it. How could you possibly use it and conceal that fact? If you used it would seem you would be in deep urr uh stuff. Would seem the dept should be furnishing it? Sounds like a bad idea to me.

[Bret4207]

Com'on Uncle Ray! Surely an old Air Farce rat like you has heard of "don't ask, don't tell"? If the crapola rains from the sky I won't be alone in my "indiscretion", if you take my drift.

They nixed the idea of a rifle I guess. The idea was some new pump rifle Remington makes in a police model, but it got the thumbs down. Hard to $ay for $ure why $omeone wouldn't $et $uch a $pectaular idea in motion $$$$$$$oon.

[TDB9901]

Before the county could (would) afford rifles, I went the Yugo SKS route like Larry suggested. Worked fine........ put a pouch on the stock that holds 2 strippers.

Not as light and compact as some, but plenty accurate, plenty of power, and not too much invested, as I removed the launcher, shortened the barrel and worked the trigger a bit myself. I also soldered a small washer on the rear sight leaf and made a sort of "ghost ring " out of it.

Still needs some trigger work to be real good, but I can easily qualify with it, and I don't have enough invested in it to worry about beating the crap out of it in a car trunk.

Best part, it's never failed to go bang when the trigger has been pulled.

[threett1]

I take it you meant the sub2000? That over the Lo Point any day. And you can get it in 40s&w, right?

[No_1]

If you keep your ear to the ground you can find UZI's for 5 c-notes BUT the bad guys sure enjoy AND have sucess with the SKS's which can be had dirt cheap...


Robert


I have no idea what a Uzi would cost, underground or otherwise. ... felix

[gregg]

Before the county could (would) afford rifles, I went the Yugo SKS route like Larry suggested. Worked fine........ put a pouch on the stock that holds 2 strippers.

Not as light and compact as some, but plenty accurate, plenty of power, and not too much invested, as I removed the launcher, shortened the barrel and worked the trigger a bit myself. I also soldered a small washer on the rear sight leaf and made a sort of "ghost ring " out of it.

Still needs some trigger work to be real good, but I can easily qualify with it, and I don't have enough invested in it to worry about beating the crap out of it in a car trunk.

Best part, it's never failed to go bang when the trigger has been pulled.
My vote also.
My SKS would be my go to rifle if my world turned upside down.
Could put a folder stock on a shorten Yugo. If you look at the Yugo with the
launcher and look what you cut to get rid of it makes a nice short package.
One thing about a SKS they keep going and going. Much underrated by most
I feel.

[Uncle Grinch]

I also think the SKS offers the most bang for the buck. It is readily available, has a multitude of accessories and ammo is cheap.

Otherwise you could spnd a little (??) more and look for a used Ruger Mini 14 or 30.

I know budget is a driving force, but dependability is a very strong point.

[9.3X62AL]

Another vote for the Mini-14. It is like the Rem 870--and few other tools used by cops--in that it is almost entirely deputy-proof. AR-15's are NOT deputy-proof. A Mini-14 was in the trunk of my cop car from 1980 until 1999 when they got D-Q'ed in favor of the AR-15. Not as accurate as a good AR, but still holds minute-of-felon to 300 yards easily.

[Sundogg1911]

I bought my Wife a Hi-Point 9 carbine after Her back Surgery She had some trouble with the AK's, so I picked one up. It's very reliable! It has great ghost ring sights. I wish I had one!

[drinks]

Al;
The 870 is not TDCJ guard proof, the armory at Beeville had several in pieces, either dropping from towers on concrete or playing with it, jamming a shell crossways and messing up the rods or stomping bugs with the butt and splitting the stock, not to mention killing several cars and pickups by blowing the transmission out with a load of buckshot through the floorboards.
Children must play.

[Bret4207]

Had a Mini 14. Traded it on a Win 43 218 Bee. Figured I didn't need it anymore since the problrm children had calmed down and lets face it- a Winchester 43 218 Bee is worth trading for under most circumstances.

We're getting prices on the mentioned carbine s and SKS now. I'd love the 1911 conversion, but I only have 1 suitable frame and it's not something I want to risk.
Thanks for the ideas guys.

[KCSO]

Trooper
PM me reference this I may have a used Kel Tech on the line.

[drinks]

Gun Tests mag.
was very complimentary on the Hi-Point, said they were simple, reliable and durable with a good trigger.
The msrp of the carbine is about $200 and I believe it comes in either 9mm or.40S&W.
Rechecked the Gun Tests report, they called the Hi Point a best buy and much preferred it to the $575 Marlin 9mm carbine.
I have just about talked myself into one before Kennedy, Pill-osee and Fineschwine have it banned.

[MTWeatherman]

I picked up a Hi-Point 9mm carbine about 4 years ago...liked it so well I got the .40S&W when they came out a couple of years ago.

The Hi-Point is exceptionally reliable....I've got about 7000 rounds through the 9mm and over 3000 through the .40...mainly cast loads. It eats anything including semiwadcutters and doesn't know what a failure to feed is. Only feeding issue I ever had was due to a defective magazine that I fixed in a couple of seconds with a Leatherman. In the case of a 9mm, its easy to pick one up for less than $200 at a gun show and both calibers come complete with scope mount and sling. I put a compact Simmons .22 Mag Scope (4X28) on both of them. They're tremendous "fun guns" but because of their reliability, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one exclusively for defense.

If you intend to use cast bullets in them...plan on some work. After the leade...the rifling has little taper...the barrels in both of mine had tool marks. Expect to lap out the throat and lap the barrel a bit but once accomplished, they handle cast well. The 9mm actually slugs at a bit over .357...pretty common on Hi-Points so you'll likely either have to lap out a 9mm mould or use a .357 mould. The rifling is shallow so expect to use heat treated or quenched bullets. However, using cast, its as inexpensive to use as a .22 rimfire, hence the extensive use both mine have had. It functions like a 10/22 Ruger on steroids.

Manufacturing costs are held down by using zinc castings in the slide...and thin, hollow plastic for the stock. The stock is flimsy and actually flexes...after a thousand rounds or so, the action tends to shift in the stock and will cause fliers...especially with the first shot until the actions settles in with recoil. However you can still count on about 2" groups at 25 yards. I highly recommend installing an Advance Technology Strikeforce aftermarket stock on the 9mm (not available for the .40) ...it eliminates the bedding issue and (if looks are an issue) it makes for a much better looking firearm (similar in appearance to the Beretta Storm). It will set you back about $60 with a Midway purchase. I installed one on mine...now consistent groups under 3/4" at 25 yards. The trigger takes a little getting used to...it has a long creep...then letoff...nothing crisp about it.

Its a full blowback design so although you can take advantage of that longer barrel and boost performance sigificantly with the slower powders like blue dot and cast bullets (you can get nearly 1600 fps within pressure limits) ... I wouldn't recommend it for long term use. Standard loads will give you over 1300 fps with a 115 gr. bullet from the 16.5 inch barrel. Although the Hi-Point will function well with heavier loads, they too easily overcome the slide inerta and will hammer the slide enough to damage it in about 1500-2000 rounds. I found that out with personal experience. However, I can testify that Hi-Point does indeed have the best warranty in the business. Any problem, they fix it...no questions asked...I had my 9mm back in 10 days after mailing it in...no charge but two extra magazines with a note saying it was for my trouble. The firing pin spring weakened after about 2500 rounds on the 9mm leading to an infrequent misfire...I called them and they sent me two of them...free of charge. Suspect that was an "abuse" issue due to the heavy loads. Its been functioning well without issue for the over 4000 rounds since.

Pretty tough to go wrong with one of them...just don't expect bragging rights at the range with it. Its the cost and performance thats impressive...not the looks or the fit and finish. Understand a .45 ACP is in the works and due to be out before much longer.

[Bret4207]

2 SKS were purchased this morning. The Yugo 49/59 type with the gas cut off and grenade launcher, complete with folding bayonet. Gotta degrease them and remove some extras like the bayonet, grenade launcher, etc. Wish us luck!

[MT Gianni]

Bret, If they are the normal Yugo's be prepared to deal with more cosmoline then you ever expected to fine. Gianni.

[TDB9901]

Other than the cleaning, it's not that big of a deal. The removal of the extra's takes a little time, hacksaw, and a good sharp file, and a little "shop sense".... you won't have a bit of trouble.

I think you will be happy with the results. As I said in a prior response, and the picture I posted of mine, I am.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Tom

[Sundogg1911]

I bought the Hi-Point for my Wife. (After He back surgery Her AK-47 was a little much for plinkin') It's great! seems to feed anything. The Ghost ring sights are nice. I was a little leary about getting one at first, but it is very realiable. I read an article in Gun tests that put it up against a Ruger 9mm carbine (that was over twice the price) The Hi-Point was the clear winner. You can get an aftermarket stock to make it looke like the Beretta carbine, (the original stock is Butt ugly in my opinion) and there are now 15 rnd. mags for it. i'm not ready to give up my AR-15 for it, but I can get about 5 of them for what the AR cost me, and they're a lot of fun to shoot!

[Bret4207]

Degreased and detail stripped it. Bayonet and grenade sight gone. Trigger-yuk!. The rest of it is really kind of an ingenious design. I like the no tools for take down idea. Gotta get some real sights. Needs a better stock, probably folding considering we need it to be outta sight. Still end up under $250.00.

[Bret4207]

Great, NOW I find out about this 922R requirement. As I understand it once you alter an SKS in the least, it can no longer contain more than 10 of the original parts listed in the law. Looks like I'll have to re-think a couple things.

[C A Plater]

*** is 922R? Didn't that crap die with the Brady bill? Does that mean all those sporterized SKS's are illegal?

[lefty_red]

Just add a slip on recoil pad and get some better sights! Its for when TSHTF, not to take out on friday nights!

Jerry

[Bret4207]

922R is still in effect. It goes back to the '89 (?) gun control legislation. So yeah, once you alter certain semi auto defense type (ASSAULT!!!!!!) guns your in the wrong. It's all based on cosmetics. I have to look into this further.

[TDB9901]

Brett,

I think we are OK on the mods we made to the SKS. I don't know how to post a link, but check out "Survivor's SKS FAQ" If the info there can be trusted we are OK. Removing the "Nasty Stuff" voids the C&R status, but didn't seem to violate 922r, at least to the extent that I went.

Let us know if you find different.

Tom

[Bret4207]

www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7991&sid=ae

www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=49&sid=94d9ab706dd610d66a337adaa404c839

Thats where I got the info.

[bruce drake]

Bret,

Other than obscuring your Badge number, I thought your other Avatar was fine. You'll find that your SHTF SKS will become a nice cast boolit shooter given enough time and experimentation. Heaven forbid you might have to buy another for work and keep playing with your cast shooter.

Bruce

[45nut]

Bret make a note to read this:

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/skscast.htm

good stuff.

[Bret4207]

Well, that wasn't my sheild number to start with, but here's why it got changed. I was trying to add a flag as a singnature, hit the wrong button and lost the old avatar. Where I come from we call "thumbling".

I have to contact some of our gun unit guys to check on NY laws and then figure the rest of it out. I already figured how to get down to the 10 or less parts. Just a bit more $$$ than I figured originally. No onw ever accused me of being too smart.

Thanks for the link Ken. Good stuff!

[Bret4207]

Well, I'm OK in the eyes of the Empire State since the rifle was manufactured prior to 1994 or something like that. So now I just have to satisfy Uncle Sam. Does anyone have any experience with the various receiver sights made for these? I'm particularly interested in this sight, the TS-200. I also would like a better front sight, but merely painting might solve the issue I'm having.

http://www.tech-sights.com/

[TDB9901]

Bret,
In the link you posted, there is a letter from the BATFE which stated, in part....


"Non-sporting features may be removed from SKS and AK type rifles without
violating 922(r), i.e. bayonet, bayonet lug, bipod, grenade launcher, flash
suppressor, and night sight. Any ADDITIONS to SKS and AK type rifles would make
them nonsporting firearms that would be in violation of 922(r).
These additions include: replacing the thumbhole stock with a pistol grip and
military style stock and/or modifying the firearm to accept a high capacity
magazine."

"You can remove the Night Sights, Grenade Launcher, Grenade Launcher
Sight, Bayonet, and Bayonet lug without repercussion as REMOVAL of items has no bearing under Federal law."

This should about cover what you (we) did and lead me to believe that we are OK in the eyes of the feds. We removed "evil" features, and made it into a more sporting type arm. As long as we don't go with a hi-cap mag or any additons that they consider "evil", I believe we are OK. Reciever sights should be OK.

If you find different, let us know, I have a son who wants to give his the same treatment, and I'm going to hold off until I am absolutely positive that it's OK.

[GSPKurt]

Kel-Tec.

[Bret4207]

TBD9901- As near as I can tell, and I couldn't find the letter you posted, once you change anything like the grenade launcher or hand guard you void the C+R status and come under 922R. I'm still researching this.

[TDB9901]

Bret,

PM sent.

Tom