.358 Win Twist

[gzig5]

Which in your experience would be better, 12" or 14", for 180-250gr cast bullets in the .358 win and why. I am building a 20" barrelled Mannlicher stocked 24/47 Mauser and would like to be able to shoot the light/medium ones for practice and deer, and occasionally the heavier ones.
Greg

[NVcurmudgeon]

I have shot cast boolits of 200 to 255 gr. in both a 1:12 twist Savage 99-358 and a 1:16 twist Lilja barrel in .35 Whelen on an early Ruger 77 action. Both rifles were accurate with all loads, and there was no trouble with stability at the 200 yd. and closer ranges I used. I had a choice or 12 or 16 twist when I had the Whelen built, and decided on the 16 twist used in Remington factory barrels. Nine years with the Whelen have done nothing to change my mind, but I never intended to use cast or jacketed bullets heavier than 250 gr. Others on this board have had stability problems with very long bullets such as Lyman's 358009 in 16 twist. it is interesting that when Colonel Whelen himself had a .35 Whelen built over fifty years ago, he chose a compromise twist of 14, but his interest seems to have been in jacketed bullets of up to 300 gr. If you have any plans for cast boolits heavier than 250 gr. go for 1:14 or 1:12. Available twists from your chosen barrelmaker will also play a part.

[gzig5]

I kinda figured it was a toss up between the 12 and 14, forgot about the 16. I just ordered a 14 twist Shilen. Thanks for taking the time to answer. Greg

[sundog]

I put a 14 twist Shilen on a 700 action specifically for the 358009 Improved. It was by all measures the correct choice.

[gzig5]

Sundog,
What are the details on that bullet? Got a picture? Are the molds available?

I ordered a 14 twist Shilen this morning.

Greg

[sundog]

http://www.castpics.net/RandD/3589I/3589I.jpg

I ran one of the very early group buys on the old Shooters board. That boolit is a special David Mos creation and only 3 1-cavity and 3 2-cavity were made for sale. AnthonyB and Maineboy each got one .001 and .002 undersized to retain on permanent loan (gifted) for testing purposes. David, I think, may have retained one for himself. They are truely very great creations! And a bit pricey. As far as I know, no others exist. Other than the 2 mentioned, they are .360 and run about 280 grains. I have a 2-cavity and the cavities are identical.

Depending on where you are, I might be able to gift you some (you pay the freight). This is not an easy mould to come by, and the Mos mould is WAY better than the Lyman, IMO. It's the onliest boolit ever been shot in my 35 Whelen. Haven't had the honor of taking any game with it yet, but the legend of that boolit speaks for itself. I think we have some fellers here on the board that have taken game with it.

Now , here's the thing. Gotta fit the throat and gotta fit the magazine, unless of course single load. Just something to think about. My smithy cut my chamber and throat to a dummy round I gave him. He got it right.

Just to give you an idea, my OAL is 3.125. The boolit seats to the bottom of the neck. I have a chrono tape that shows 40.0/IMR4895 avg 1980, SD 32, and ES 89. That's with fire formed '06 LCNM brass. That load is sub MOA at 200 yards.

Don't know what else to say.... sundog

[waksupi]

One of my .358 Win, has a 1-12 Douglas, and handles the heavy (275 gr) Bators well, at around 2100 fps. My new one, I used a Bauska 1-14, and it seems to work well also, from early experiments. I believe either one will serve the purpose. Both also seem to like the 237 gr Bator.

[Marlin Junky]

One of my .358 Win, has a 1-12 Douglas, and handles the heavy (275 gr) Bators well, at around 2100 fps. My new one, I used a Bauska 1-14, and it seems to work well also, from early experiments. I believe either one will serve the purpose. Both also seem to like the 237 gr Bator.

Waksupi,

How long is the magazine box on that particular .358 and is there enough room in the case to break 2300 fps with your 275 grain boolit using something like H380?

MJ

[gzig5]

Wow, that thing looks like a thumper. It will probably be a while before I get this rifle put together, but I may take you up on your offer. Very generous. I have a neck/throat reamer so I can make it what I want. That bullet may be a bit heavy for a .358 win to drive well, though. Thanks guys.
Greg

[waksupi]

One action is a VZ 24, so would be an intermediate length. The other is a short action FN. Plenty room in either magazine. If you push them to 2300 fps, be aware that this is far past any factory jacketed loadings, pressure and velocity wise for heavy bullets. I'm sure you can get enough powder in the case to do the job.

[RugerFan]

The following link is an excellent article about the .358 Win by Paco.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm

[Marlin Junky]

The following link is an excellent article about the .358 Win by Paco.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm

The following is quoted from Paco's article:

"Lyman’s 3589, is the original mold number...not sure what it is today, probably something like 358009. But it is a round nose at around 280 grains in weight. I cast these bullets from magnum shotgun shot with 5% tin added...cast hot and dropped directly into water...."

"...The all time great cast .358 bullet for me in rifles is the 3589 Lyman (it’s now numbered 358009) it is a listed 280 grain very blunt roundnose. It drops at 290+ grains from my mold and at 2350fps gives well over 3500 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy (51 grs A2520)"

There's no pressure data supplied with this load and I was wondering if anyone could work up some possible scenarios. The rifle is either a commercial Mauser action with a 23 inch barrel and 10" twist or a BSA with a 24" barrel, I think. He never really indicates the gun he developed the load in. Paco also didn't supply an overall cartridge length.

MJ

[Maineboy]

The following is quoted from Paco's article:
"...The all time great cast .358 bullet for me in rifles is the 3589 Lyman (it’s now numbered 358009) it is a listed 280 grain very blunt roundnose. It drops at 290+ grains from my mold and at 2350fps gives well over 3500 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy (51 grs A2520)"

There's no pressure data supplied with this load and I was wondering if anyone could work up some possible scenarios. The rifle is either a commercial Mauser action with a 23 inch barrel and 10" twist or a BSA with a 24" barrel, I think. He never really indicates the gun he developed the load in. Paco also didn't supply an overall cartridge length.

MJ

I wonder how safe that load would be. Somewhere I picked up thise load data for the 35 Whelen AA2520 and the 358009 boolit:
AA2520 45.0gr. 2169fps 46,000psi. The starting load is 40.5 grains.
I think it is data directly from Accurate Arms. I'd be real careful working up to Paco's load in a 358 Winchester.

[Marlin Junky]

I'd be real careful working up to Paco's load in a 358 Winchester.

I be real careful working up to ANY load Paco thinks is a maximum load. The only thing I can assume is that he has an odd-ball chamber. Perhaps it's freebored... whatever. That's the kind of stuff Paco publishes though. He seldom gives us all the pertinent load specifics; so, I take all his stuff with a pillar of salt.

BTW, I have the data on the .35W you mentioned above and yes, it came in the form of a PDF directly from AA's website. The COL on that load is 3.050" so maybe ol' 358009 was stuffed way down into the .35W case. Nevertheless Paco's load above is probably doin' 60K+ PSI.

MJ

[mike in co]

290 gr boollit usin an aol of 1.25, 2.802 oal, aa2520 45.4 gr is 105.6% listed vol., 24 " bbl, 2500 start press

is max press and 2248 fps


dont know how he got 51 gr in 308 case.....

so maybe this is a 35 whelen ??

in a 35 whelen, 3.340 oal, again 1.25 290, 51 gr is 2237, bu tonly 90% and 47kpsi


mike

[Marlin Junky]

Mike,

I'll have to assume Paco didn't make the mistake of quoting a .35 Whelen load when writing about the .358 Winchester so my guess is, his rifle had a 3.3" (or thereabouts) magazine box, a long chamber throat and he loaded the rounds real long. I'll bet the rifle he quoted the data from is the one he later rechambered to .35 Whelen (maybe because it had too long a throat? :???: )

From the article:

"Using a commercial Mauser action, I had a 23 inch .358 barrel with a 1 in 10 twist mounted with a medium weight and taper....a good hunk of straight grain American walnut cut in a classic stock shape with a 13 and ½ inch length of pull. And it stayed a .358 Win until I ran into a BSA 24 inch rifle a few years later in .358 so I rechambered the custom rifle to 35 Whelen."

There's no way to tell from reading the article whether the load in question was developed in the custom Mauser or the BSA. If I had to make a wager, I'd bet he developed it in the the custom Mauser (with a long mag. box & throat).

MJ