To quench or not to quench?

[aprayinbear]

Here's a question for all you experienced casters.:drinks:

I have been reloading for most of my guns for several years now, but I have just started casting my own bullets. I've started with the Lee 358-148-WC mold for my Dan Wesson .357. I'm using 3.5 grains of bullseye in .357 cases. In the past I have purchased these same bullets "hardcast" from an internet company. They work well with this load in my gun.

I am using wheel weights for alloy with nothing added. The Lee mold worked like a charm. I'm tumble lubing with Alox, sized to .358.

My question is, with my relatively light load, do I need to water quench my bullets or am I better off not quenching. I haven't had any problem with leading when I've used the hardcast (brinnell hardness of 17) bullets that I've purchased in the past. Since I don't have any way to test my quenched wheel weight bullets I have no idea of their hardness. My understanding (and I know very little so far) is that with the low velocity handgun bullets, the softer bullet might be preferable.

Is that correct? All thoughts, suggestions and ideas would be much appreciated!
:castmine: Happy Shooting!

[felix]

Correct. If leading appears, go to a slower powder. ... felix

[Cmemiss]

I'm not an expert, nor do I play one on television, but if your low vel load is working without leading then why change anything. Stated another way, if it works leave it alone and don't make extra work for yourself. Just my opinion.. Not sure how much you have read here and other places, but clip on WW are relatively hard, where stick on are almost pure lead. See the info on the LA sill. club site on the various hardnesses.

[mdi]

If I remember correctly, the last bunch of WW alloy I tested was around 15 BHN. But, I don't pay as much attention to bullet hardness as I do proper bullet/cylinder throat fit. I've been casting my own for about 9 years and have yet to find need for water quinching my bullets...

[MGySgt]

Shoot them - you may be looking at a problem that isn't!

If you get leading with WW air cooled look to the size of the boolits, groove and chambers.

I shoot WW air cooled for 95% of what I shoot, don't add a step that isn't needed.

[Blammer]

I'd skip the quenching step, sounds like you're good to go.

[Rocky Raab]

IMO, harder is better about as often as politicians are smarter.

[williamwaco]

Number 1) Quenching is NEVER necessary. There is no need for handgun bullets any harder than straight wheel weights.

Number 2) The effects of water dropping are temporary. If you are not going to shoot them within a few weeks. They will be back to the same hardness as non-quenched bullets (from the same pot ). In my testing this takes from three to four weeks.

If you want them to remain hard, you need to "heat treat them"

see:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.ht m


for heat treating information.

[Iron Mike Golf]

If I remember correctly, the last bunch of WW alloy I tested was around 15 BHN. But, I don't pay as much attention to bullet hardness as I do proper bullet/cylinder throat fit. I've been casting my own for about 9 years and have yet to find need for water quinching my bullets...

+1 on that. I have used the same alloy (92-4-4), water dropped, same lube (Carnauba Red) for .45 ACP, 9mm, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, and 44 Mag. No problems. Boolit fit roolz.

When I get 380 ACP, 40 S&W, and 41 Mag moulds, I'll keep on with this approach.

[aprayinbear]

Thanks guys for all the info. Very interesting about hardness being lost over time after quenching. As I don't have much experience, much of this is new to me.... learning as I go. In the meantime I'm reading everything I can.

I hope to soon get molds for my other guns, especially my 1917 Lee-Enfield SMLE. I'm sure I'll have lots of questions as I learn more. Sure glad there is a site like this one to help me when I get stuck.

Many Thanks & Happy Shooting!:2_high5:

[MtGun44]

GO Rocky!

You too, William!

Fit is king. In handguns, hardness borders on irrelevant for most of them.

Bill

[Iron Mike Golf]

...Number 2) The effects of water dropping are temporary. If you are not going to shoot them within a few weeks. They will be back to the same hardness as non-quenched bullets (from the same pot ). In my testing this takes from three to four weeks.

If you want them to remain hard, you need to "heat treat them"
...

If your mold is hot enough that you get a satin finish as opposed to shiny, then water dropping is essentially heat treating.

I just checked some 10 month old water dropped bullets. Still at 22 BHN, which is what they topped out at after a couple of weeks.

[williamwaco]

If your mold is hot enough that you get a satin finish as opposed to shiny, then water dropping is essentially heat treating.

I just checked some 10 month old water dropped bullets. Still at 22 BHN, which is what they topped out at after a couple of weeks.


Interesting.

I will check that out.



.

[caseyboy]

I have water quenched boolits dropped from the mould into water that are many months old and still just as hard as they were a couple of days after water dropping.

[canyon-ghost]

My 41 Magnum does fine on air-cooled wheelweight.

Water quench when you get to rifle bullets going over 1800 fps, you don't need it for magnum handgun rounds.

[btroj]

I tend to water quench every thing. Not so much for hardness but as a way of keeping piles of hot bullets from sitting next to me. It is just the way I do it. Many of my bullets are still pretty darn soft as range scrap doesn't get real hard even after water dropping.
My feeling is that if the load works for you then why sweat it? I worry far more about how well the load shoots than if it fits the "ideal" nature of things.

[Bret4207]

Number 1) Quenching is NEVER necessary. There is no need for handgun bullets any harder than straight wheel weights.

Number 2) The effects of water dropping are temporary. If you are not going to shoot them within a few weeks. They will be back to the same hardness as non-quenched bullets (from the same pot ). In my testing this takes from three to four weeks.

If you want them to remain hard, you need to "heat treat them"

see:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.ht m


for heat treating information.

I'm going to have to check that out. I have some 20+ year old boolits that have softened 2 points, and some 5ish year olds that are still about 20. The idea that a boolit quenched from the mould will soften in a few weeks while a boolit quenched from a cookie sheet makes zero sense.

[runfiverun]

300* ,or 400*, water dumped and quickly cooled will still harden, it's the fast cooling that does the hardening, the heat difference and speed of cooling determine the final hardness.
even super hot boolits dumped in an extremely cold air temp will see a hardening effect.

the oven heat treating offers the advantage of heat soaking the entire boolit.
having the whole batch heated to the same temp,
and them all being dumped at the same time.
keeping the results more consistant.

i generally use the same alloy for most everything.
i air cool for revolver cartridges,and the 45acp.
i waterdrop this same alloy for most of my rifle rounds, but will occasionally use a different harder alloy for different results.

[MajorJim]

I am new to casting, so please bear with me.

I have found some conflicting information on quenching and lead hardening as the processes relate to age hardening or softening. Some things I have read say both oven hardening and water quenching will soften over time, others that softening will occur with oven but not quenching, and vice versa, others that both processes will soften up a little and then stop, and still others that indicate no softening will occur.

Is there any definitive "word" or resource that sets the record straight here? Any long term tests? Wouldn't want to cast a bunch of bullets and have those that have sat around for a few months to exit the barrel at the consistency of mercury (I exaggerate).

[Recluse]

Water quenching is a tool, same as which lube you choose, which method you choose to size and lube, gas check the boolit or not, heat-treat or not, etc.

I've never water-quenched wadcutters and never had leading. I use the old standard bullseye shooters' load of 2.7 grains of Bullseye pushing a 148 grain DEWC and have enjoyed supreme, consistent accuracy and zero leading for years.

As as been stated, fit is king first and foremost. Fit is far, far more important than BHN. Second, a good lube. I tumble-lube my wadcutters using my 45/45/10 blend and again, supreme accuracy, no leading, no smoke, shiny clean barrels.

The key to casting boolits is knowing which tools and techniques to use to achieve which specific objectives. There ARE boolits that I water drop because I know exactly which powder/s and lubes I'm going to use, how fast I'm pushing them and out of which guns.

So, that makes water-quenching a tool I pull out of the caster's toolbox to help achieve an overall objective.

Likewise, for a medium-sized boolit that is going to be a slow-mover, use the primary and most important tool of "fit" first. When you do that, you'll find that you won't need the tool of "BHN" nearly so much.

:coffee:

[Rocky Raab]

Allow me to assuage your concerns, MajorJim. Rocky's Rule of Reloading #1: Most of the time, the really technical stuff doesn't matter.

I'm no kind of engineer whatever. I didn't know anything about molecular airflow over a wing, nor about the crystal structure of turbine blades. All I had to know was how to fly the damn jet.

In shooting, I fill the role of Everyman Reloader. I do everything I can to stamp out what I call "axlewrappism" in which people get so tightly wrapped up with niggely technical details that they can't move the darn cart.

For almost all your shooting needs (and virtually all handgun shooting), it is exceedingly simple: You can pour almost anything leadish into a bullet mould. If what comes out has a clean base, sharp edges and is the right diameter for your gun, it is more than good enough.

Really.

[Char-Gar]

In my handgun casting and reloading, I have never found water quenching to be necessary or even helpful. I am talking all the way from light target loads to full snort 44 Magnum loads.

[MGySgt]

There is a school of thought that for the 45 ACP you need a hard boolit - one due to hitting the feed ramp and deforming the nose (never had that problem) and 2 to help keep the boolit from skidding when it first hit the lands in a 45 ACP barrel. (short lands due to the war 45's shooting steel cased bullets).

I don't know if the newer 45 barrels still have the shalow lands and groves or not. I know I pushed my 45 ACP loads to the limit shooting competition and did not have an issue wwith the straight WW.

Some casters water drop everything, some like me never water drop.

I have heat treated 45/70 boolits and found I did not need them that hard. I also found out that the heat treated boolits had a smaller sweet spot for accurary where they only gave their best accuracy in a .5 grain variance were as the non heat treaded you had greater accuracy over a wider range of loads.

Just my findings in my guns!

[milprileb]

Then all the time folks tell me Water Quenching is not needed as it makes bullets harder is really that its a wasted effort ?

That sure was not the advice some of you all gave me earlier this year when the theme was bullets were too hard and 9mm bullets only need air cooling.

Am I missing something or did we have a change of heart on WQ making pistol bullets too hard for 9mm ????

[MGySgt]

Am I missing something or did we have a change of heart on WQ making pistol bullets too hard for 9mm ????

I don't WQ my 9's. Yes after 100 or so rounds I have a little leading in the barrel, but it comes out easy enough. I have to clean it good anyway as that is what I carry and I use Hornady Hydro Shoks in my 9 for carry.

[Larry Gibson]

aprayinbear

I have been reloading for most of my guns for several years now, but I have just started casting my own bullets. I've started with the Lee 358-148-WC mold for my Dan Wesson .357. I'm using 3.5 grains of bullseye in .357 cases. In the past I have purchased these same bullets "hardcast" from an internet company. They work well with this load in my gun.

I am using wheel weights for alloy with nothing added. The Lee mold worked like a charm. I'm tumble lubing with Alox, sized to .358.

My question is, with my relatively light load, do I need to water quench my bullets or am I better off not quenching.

With that load there is no reason to water quench and harden the bullets what so ever (probably already mentioned). I would actually add 1-2% tin to those WWs and then add lead. I would add at least add 50% lead or up to 70% lead. That will stretch out your supply of WWs considerably and also make for better cast WC for your Revolver. Factory WCs are of dead soft lead with a little tin. The load you are using in a .357 case is an excellent WC load and you may very well find the softer cast WCs to be more accurate.

Larry Gibson

[454PB]

Those that have never tried heat treating or quenching from the mould need to get adventurous!

I'm not big on it myself, but I've done fairly extensive experimenting just to learn.

A while back, I pulled out a coffee can of boolits that I cast in 1983. These were Lyman 454424 cast from wheelweights and dumped into cold water. Back in 1983, I didn't have a hardness tester, but now I do. They measured 17 BHN.....29 years latter! Another can full, cast at the same time but air cooled measured 11 BHN.

You can only learn if "accepted" theories are correct by testing them yourself.

I had read for years that heat treated boolits hardened within a few days, so I did a test. Wrong!......tested every few days, then every few weeks, and finally several months I found that they actually increase in hardness for up to a year. It starts rather quickly, then slows down.

I had also read that sizing a heat treated boolit reverses the hardening process. This is also untrue, at least if the sizing is done quickly. When I heat treat, I size them immediately.

[MGySgt]

When I heat treat boolits - I size them and put GC on - then heat treat them in the oven and quench.

I use an oversize lube die in my sizer/luber to add lube when I am going to shoot them.

[Aunegl]

I water quench all my cast boolits, during a casting session. For me it's a safety issue. At the 12 o'clock position, I'm dealing with a furnace and 20 pounds of molten lead. I place a small box in front of the furnace for the sprues, drip art and rejects that I can see, when I open the molds. At the 8 o'clock position, I place a 5 gallon bucket of water for my keepers.

[runfiverun]

milprileb.
your situation was different.
the 9mm and 40 is a completely different story,tapered brass of varying internal capacity,high pressure,and seating depth causing low case volumn.
even though the 45 acp is fired in a pistol it's pressure and brass design allow it to be treated like a revolver.
quite often throat design, rifling depth+ twist rate, and forward momentum [launch speed] demand a harder larger boolit [marlin] sometimes you gotta push them a bit harder or switch powder rates to make things work.
other times there is a pressure zone that works regardless of boolit speed [within reason] and usually the alloy determines that.

[MikeS]

I water quench all my cast boolits, during a casting session. For me it's a safety issue. At the 12 o'clock position, I'm dealing with a furnace and 20 pounds of molten lead. I place a small box in front of the furnace for the sprues, drip art and rejects that I can see, when I open the molds. At the 8 o'clock position, I place a 5 gallon bucket of water for my keepers.

Please explain how that aids safety? When I cast I put the sprues right back in the pot, and dump the boolits on a towel at the 10 o'clock position, and there's a small fan that blows on the just cast boolits that I can use to cool off the mould if it gets too hot, and it also slowly cools off the boolits so that within 5 minutes they're cool enough to handle. They cool slowly enough to not change their hardness, and I have no water by my casting equipment, so don't have to worry about splashes, and if 10 minutes after I cast a boolit I notice it's not a keeper (say during a break in casting), it's not all wet, so it can go right back into the pot with no worries about dragging water under the lead, and causing a problem.

So how exactly is water dropping your boolits a safety issue? Or more correctly, how is my not water dropping boolits a safety liability?

[Recluse]

When I heat treat boolits - I size them and put GC on - then heat treat them in the oven and quench.

I use an oversize lube die in my sizer/luber to add lube when I am going to shoot them.

+1

This is pretty much also how I deal with all of my rifle caliber boolits. I gas-check 'em in a Lee push-through while sizing them, then heat treat them/quench/store. Lubing is done before a loading session. This ensures fresh, good lube and no "working" of the boolits.

Normally I'll mic the boolits before running them through the (oversized die) lubesizer, but I haven't had any grow on me yet.


I water quench all my cast boolits, during a casting session. For me it's a safety issue.

I'm just curious what the safety issue is.

For me, I always have a bucket of water filled and nearby the casting table in the event of a burn so I can plunge the hand in or pour the water on the burned area, etc. I also have several fire extinguishers in the reloading shop, wear gloves and safety glasses, etc. I don't wear a full shield face guard or heavy apron and I don't always wear long-sleeved shirts. Jeans always, but too hot to wear long sleeve shirts.

When I first started casting, I water-dropped everything. Nowadays, I hardly quench anything other than my rifle caliber boolits.

:coffee:

[bobthenailer]

I water drop all my bullets from the mould directly into a 7 gallon bucket of water and size within 2 hours after casting , been doing it this way since the 1980s and see no reason to do it another way as it really speeds up my casting production and has no Ill affect reguardless of the caliber or velocity from 700 to my limit of 2000 fps in handguns or rifles.
With something over 400,000 cast bullets made, im sticken with it !