9mm leading with unknown lead hardness

[jeepguy242]

ok, check my troubleshooting process guys, and tell me if i am missing something.

the cast boolits i have been buying mic out at .3565, so i bought a lee .356 mold 124gn RNTL.

cast up 100 with an unknown hardness of lead that was mostly melted down wheel weights. 3.9 gn of win 231, (that is what i been shooting the storebough boolits with) 50 of them sized with a lee.356 sizer, 50 of them not sized, and mic out at .3569

ordered a lee hardness tester, so i can compare the hardness of my cast to the hardness of the storebought. the hardness tester will be here friday..


went to the range today and shot them, the 50 that were sized, started off real accurate, then started keyholing, took my barrel out, and it was leaded about all the way through, cleaned it after 20, shot the rest, and same thing

cleaned again, wasnt too hard with a brass brush and a warm barrel

so i think im gonna check the hardness of of the storebought boolits, and try to get the hardness of my castings close before i look into a larger size die.. maybe a .357 or .358

did i miss anything, any opinions are welcome...

[jeepguy242]

oh. forgot to mention i am using the 45/45/10 recipe i got here for lube

[FirstBrit]

ok, check my troubleshooting process guys, and tell me if i am missing something.

the cast boolits i have been buying mic out at .3565, so i bought a lee .356 mold 124gn RNTL.

cast up 100 with an unknown hardness of lead that was mostly melted down wheel weights. 3.9 gn of win 231, (that is what i been shooting the storebough boolits with) 50 of them sized with a lee.356 sizer, 50 of them not sized, and mic out at .3569

ordered a lee hardness tester, so i can compare the hardness of my cast to the hardness of the storebought. the hardness tester will be here friday..


went to the range today and shot them, the 50 that were sized, started off real accurate, then started keyholing, took my barrel out, and it was leaded about all the way through, cleaned it after 20, shot the rest, and same thing

cleaned again, wasnt too hard with a brass brush and a warm barrel

so i think im gonna check the hardness of of the storebought boolits, and try to get the hardness of my castings close before i look into a larger size die.. maybe a .357 or .358

did i miss anything, any opinions are welcome...

Hi, with a load like that the bullet alloy needs to be fairly tough since assuming your OAL being 1.045" the chamber pressure would be in the region of 30-31 k. psi. Thats asking a bit much from bullets based mainly on wheel weights with a BHN of about 11-12 at a guess. Generally for CB loads - other than just really light plinking loads - I would lokk at a slower powder than W-231. Personally I prefer powders like Hodgdon Longshot or VV 3N37 about 4,8 to 5,0 gr.

Best regards,

Adrian - Germany.

[GaryN]

"50 of them sized with a lee.356 sizer"

Okay you sized 50 of them with the .356 sizer. Did you mic. them after sizing to see what size the sizer really was?
Did you shoot the unsized boolits and if so did they also lead the barrel? Did you slug your bore to see exactly what you are dealing with?
Remember, number one thing to check is fit. That's before hardness.

[gefiltephish]

There are more than a few of us that have not had success with tumble lubing. I tried numerous methods and recipes before giving up. That was with both 9mm and 45acp. I now only conventional lube/size with a Lyman 450 and a Star.

My 5" XD leads with 2 different TC bullet designs which are both quite accurate. Using the Mihec 124hp bullet, I get no leading at all, but it's not nearly as accurate. In fact, I can shoot a handful of the Mihec bullets after the TC's to clean out the barrel. Same alloy, temp, even cast from the same pot of alloy in the same session, same powders, same sizing, same lube. Actually, the leading of the TC's is not incredibly bad. I can shoot a box of 50 and not have any noticeable decrease in accuracy. It just annoys me to no end that one bullet leaves the barrel clean and shiny (excepting powder residue) while the others leave (some) lead down the length of the barrel.

After 3 years, I give up. This gun and caliber has never really excited me anyway, so I'm giving it to my son who will likely just shoot jacketed.

I guess my point is that you may have a very uphill battle, or not. Good luck.

[MtGun44]

Hardness borders on irrelevance, with too hard being more often the problem than too
soft.

With 9mm, too small and too hard are the first, most common problems. Next is crummy
lube. You probably need .357 or .358 diam.

Most common commercial boolts are problematically too hard and have marginal crayola lube. There
are a few suppliers that are skilled, and make great boolits with good lubes, but many are just some
guy running a Magma and turning out a product that they know very little about.

Check this out:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737



Bill

[jeepguy242]

"50 of them sized with a lee.356 sizer"

Okay you sized 50 of them with the .356 sizer. Did you mic. them after sizing to see what size the sizer really was?
Did you shoot the unsized boolits and if so did they also lead the barrel? Did you slug your bore to see exactly what you are dealing with?
Remember, number one thing to check is fit. That's before hardness.

no, i didnt slug the bore, the thought of pounding a bullet down a match barrel makes me cringe, one slip and ouch,

i mic'ed a cast storebought that i have shot in this gun since new and it was .3563, and the sized boolit i cast mic'ed at .3562 my mold dropped them at .3567

yes, all the bullets did the same thing..

i would prefer to not slug the barrel, but if i hafta, then i hafta. i'm leaning on the lead might be almost pure. i'm gonna have to se when the hardness tester gets here. from the measurements i took, the tumble lube and hardness are the only things that i think are different between these 2 boolits..

thanks for your advice, whats your thought on this with the anwers to your question.

btw, this gun has never had a leading problem with the storebought cast made by a local guy here in NC, Ridge runner cast boolits.

[jeepguy242]

Hardness borders on irrelevance, with too hard being more often the problem than too
soft.

With 9mm, too small and too hard are the first, most common problems. Next is crummy
lube. You probably need .357 or .358 diam.

Most common commercial boolts are problematically too hard and have crummy crayola lube. There
are a few suppliers that are skilled, and make great boolits with good lubes, but many are just some
guy running a Magma and turning out a product that they know very little about.

Check this out:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737



Bill

the leading starts right after the chamber, and goes all the way through the barrel, after 50, the gun almost looks like a smoothbore.

i cannot push my thumbnail into the storebought, but i can make a pretty good indention with my nail in the one i cast. that is my reasoning for thinking its to soft..

had the leading been at the muzzle i would have thought lube was the problem or maybe just a slight patch somewhere in the bore, bu not the whole length.

[garym1a2]

WSF powder and a proper size boolit and make sure the seating die does not resize it and do not use the Lee fatory crimp die. I get over 300 rnds before I clean for lube and powder residue. Five passes with a brush and bore is clean.
I load my round to bairly make minor power factor USPSA 125.

[jeepguy242]

Hardness borders on irrelevance, with too hard being more often the problem than too
soft.

With 9mm, too small and too hard are the first, most common problems. Next is crummy
lube. You probably need .357 or .358 diam.

Most common commercial boolts are problematically too hard and have marginal crayola lube. There
are a few suppliers that are skilled, and make great boolits with good lubes, but many are just some
guy running a Magma and turning out a product that they know very little about.

Check this out:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737



Bill

one thing i just read from that is to check a pulled boolit and see if seating it in the case is undersizing it, i havent pulled one yet, but looking at the cast from the store, ther is a slight bulge in the case and mine do not have that bulge.. i think maybe the soft lead is getting squeezed to under .356 during seating...

thanks for the link, i am gonna pull one and see

[jeepguy242]

WSF powder and a proper size boolit and make sure the seating die does not resize it and do not use the Lee fatory crimp die. I get over 300 rnds before I clean for lube and powder residue. Five passes with a brush and bore is clean.
I load my round to bairly make minor power factor USPSA 125.

i found that the factory crimp die always did more hurt than good

[blikseme300]

No matter the alloy or lube, if the boolits are under size then you will have leading.

I typically don't slug the bore. I load and shoot boolits starting at .358 and typically don't need to test any more. Even using very soft alloy no leading and good accuracy.

I have a small collection of 9mm's and the only gotcha is that some European pistols have a tighter chamber and a shorter lede. My CZ's are typical of this.

Bliksem

[evan price]

9mm case is actually tapered, and if you are not flaring it enough then seating your boolit will reduce the diameter and you get leading. There's a sticky about using a 38/357 flare die for your 9mm to help with this.

I size my 9mm to .357 and flare enough and get no leading of note with range scrap water dropped to bhn about 12.

I gave up on the RN-124-TL Lee boolits because I prefer the 105-SWC regular groove boolit- less lead, more accurate, nicer holes. Using 1.025" oal & 4.8 grains PROMO powder which is Red Dot data (fast powder).

[jeepguy242]

thanks guys, i will check that also.. still need to pull a boolit and see if its betting undersized by the seating..

[jeepguy242]

i guess the one thing that i get stuck on, logic tells me that if i can buy cast boolits that work as .356, why cant i get mine to work at the same measurement.

[bpratl]

i guess the one thing that i get stuck on, logic tells me that if i can buy cast boolits that work as .356, why cant i get mine to work at the same measurement.

A year ago I purchased a new Beretta in 9mm at the same time I started casting.
I starting sizing to .356" and had 1" long slivers of lead while cleaning after shooting 50 rounds. I then sized the next casting to .357" and found 1/2 the lead.
I now size to .358" and have no more leading or key holing and a very clean barrel. My 92FS 9mm Beretta barrel slugged to .3565" so the .358" sizer did the trick.

[Larry Gibson]

Hardness borders on irrelevance, with too hard being more often the problem than too
soft.

With 9mm, too small and too hard are the first, most common problems. Next is crummy
lube. You probably need .357 or .358 diam.........Bill

MtGun44 is correct. I suggest a .358 if you "as cast" diameter is at least that or closer to it than .357. Your "mostly melted down WWs" should be a good alloy, would be better with 1 - 2% tin added though. Now for the crux of the problem; your lube is "45/45/10". Obviously it doesn't work because that was a lot of leading for WW alloy even at .356. I suggest if you find LLA to thick and gooey that you "improve" on it only by putting the bottle in a pan of hot water for 5 - 10 minutes to thin it out before application. Many times the cause of leading is with home made lubes.

Now before some want to post that "I use that formula and it works for me" note that you did not make the OPs lube. Something didn't work out right with his brew. There is no reason if straight LLA is applied as per the instructions that it will not work in a 9mm with that load at 1000 - 1100 fps. I've used straight LLA myself on a lot of 356-120-TC cast of WWs and sized at .359 over an almost identical load. I've shot them in numerous 9mms and several subguns with zero leading. Instead of using a home brewed concoction the OP should try LLA straight to see if it works. LLA will work just fine as is for it's intended purpose with the OPs load.

Larry Gibson

[Iron Mike Golf]

no, i didnt slug the bore, the thought of pounding a bullet down a match barrel makes me cringe, one slip and ouch...

1. Use a brass drift and a padded vise. No harm will come to your barrel. You really need to know groove dia.

2. Sounds like you need a bigger expander. There's a sticky on tuning a 38 Spl expander for use in 9mm.


9mm can be tough, but it's doable.

[MtGun44]

If you don't want to slug, just shoot fatter and fatter until the leading stops.

Brass rod and soft slug cannot hurt a steel barrel.

Bill

[jeepguy242]

thanks guys, looks like im gonna go bigger and try straight allox, you almost got me convinced to slug the bore, still not ready to take the plunge yet, but the videos i been watching seem like it's ok... now that i say that, my next post is gonna be how do i get a stuck boolit out of a barrel LOL....

[Iron Mike Golf]

Use a brass rod and a heavy hammer. Once you get her started, she moves easier than a jacketed squib round.

[zxcvbob]

ok, check my troubleshooting process guys, and tell me if i am missing something.

the cast boolits i have been buying mic out at .3565, so i bought a lee .356 mold 124gn RNTL.

cast up 100 with an unknown hardness of lead that was mostly melted down wheel weights. 3.9 gn of win 231, (that is what i been shooting the storebough boolits with) 50 of them sized with a lee.356 sizer, 50 of them not sized, and mic out at .3569

ordered a lee hardness tester, so i can compare the hardness of my cast to the hardness of the storebought. the hardness tester will be here friday..


went to the range today and shot them, the 50 that were sized, started off real accurate, then started keyholing, took my barrel out, and it was leaded about all the way through, cleaned it after 20, shot the rest, and same thing

cleaned again, wasnt too hard with a brass brush and a warm barrel

so i think im gonna check the hardness of of the storebought boolits, and try to get the hardness of my castings close before i look into a larger size die.. maybe a .357 or .358

did i miss anything, any opinions are welcome...

Sorry, I can't tell from what you wrote (maybe cuz I've had a few beers) Did you try the unsized bullets in a clean barrel? The first thing I would try is larger (unsized, as-cast) bullets. And if you are using a Lee "Factory Crimp" die, try without it. I can send you my directions for adjusting a Lee seating die to crimp and seat at the same time if you want.

[jeepguy242]

my hardness tester comes in tomorrow, and i am gonna test these asap, as i dont have a bigger mold yet, in you guys opinion, what would be a good hardness that i can call ok for shooting, should i be looking for around 12-15 bhn, or higher..

i will post the results i get here for you guys to help me figure this out, thanks again for all your help...

[jeepguy242]

Sorry, I can't tell from what you wrote (maybe cuz I've had a few beers) Did you try the unsized bullets in a clean barrel? The first thing I would try is larger (unsized, as-cast) bullets. And if you are using a Lee "Factory Crimp" die, try without it. I can send you my directions for adjusting a Lee seating die to crimp and seat at the same time if you want.


yes, i tried the unsized, in a clean barrel, then i cleaned it, then tried the sized...

i dont use the factory crimp dies, just the seating die, and thanks for your offer on the instructions, but i got that part covered also.. actually i havent had to crimp at all while seating, i just have the die adjusted to take the flare out that was caused by the expander/powder through die till the cases feed reliably in my gun.

[zxcvbob]

You also might need to load them *hotter*. I don't use 231 to load 9mm, so I don't know where 3.9 grains is on the spectrum, but it sounds pretty light. I use more Bullseye than that with heavier bullets. If that's a light load (and I think it is) increase it to maybe 4.2 to give the bullets a harder kick in the butt; they might seal the chamber better and reduce gas-cutting.

[jeepguy242]

You also might need to load them *hotter*. I don't use 231 to load 9mm, so I don't know where 3.9 grains is on the spectrum, but it sounds pretty light. I use more Bullseye than that with heavier bullets. If that's a light load (and I think it is) increase it to maybe 4.2 to give the bullets a harder kick in the butt; they might seal the chamber better and reduce gas-cutting.

yes, 3.9 was the min, so it is a light load. i didnt want to go balls out and blow myself up, IIRC 4.4 is the max, i usually load the storebought to 4.0 and it shoots real nice. i will try loading them hotter.. thanks...

[milprileb]

Since I am still sorting through 9mm leading issues at present, I wish to ask you this.

The store bought lead bullets did not lead ? So if you got a Lee lead tester bought,
find out the BNH hardness of the store bought bullets and try to replicate that in future
cast bullets of your own. Use same bullet sizing as store bought were.

That is if store bought were shooting well for you in your pistol with loads developed.

Another thing, you are going to get a ton of advice from the board members but don't get frustrated by the bewildering variables they will bring to your attention. You may find for 9mm that you got to address a lot of variables in the trek to the right solution for your pistol and its sometimes amazing. 9mm is not a easy cast bullet shooting caliber from my experience and you just got to chase the variables. Water quench vs air cooled .. I don't know the answer yet.

Also: if one pistol leads and the other 9mm pistol does not with a given alloy, load, OAL, sizing, lube .... if just means one pistol requires you to pursue solutions for your cast bullets for it to shoot like you want it to.

My one pistol that is leading ? Well, its plumb accurate as can be with FMJ bullets so its not a bad barrel. And yes, I have zero'd out any copper in that bore before I began shooting cast in that pistol. (another variable issue that can foul you up and shared by sage guys on this board)

[milprileb]

Lee Liquid Alox seems to be hit or miss. I think the use of stick lube
avoids a lot of LLA failures with some loads but one had to recognize
that bullet makers do some sort of liquid dip lube on their swaged lead
bullets and its works well for lubrication. So... LLA is not a waste of time
and I know folks who swear by it.

I think LLA is purely weapon dependent on success as my High Power is okay with
it and on same loads my 1911 leads.

[jeepguy242]

Since I am still sorting through 9mm leading issues at present, I wish to ask you this.

The store bought lead bullets did not lead ? So if you got a Lee lead tester bought,
find out the BNH hardness of the store bought bullets and try to replicate that in future
cast bullets of your own. Use same bullet sizing as store bought were.

That is if store bought were shooting well for you in your pistol with loads developed.

Another thing, you are going to get a ton of advice from the board members but don't get frustrated by the bewildering variables they will bring to your attention. You may find for 9mm that you got to address a lot of variables in the trek to the right solution for your pistol and its sometimes amazing. 9mm is not a easy cast bullet shooting caliber from my experience and you just got to chase the variables. Water quench vs air cooled .. I don't know the answer yet.

Also: if one pistol leads and the other 9mm pistol does not with a given alloy, load, OAL, sizing, lube .... if just means one pistol requires you to pursue solutions for your cast bullets for it to shoot like you want it to.

My one pistol that is leading ? Well, its plumb accurate as can be with FMJ bullets so its not a bad barrel. And yes, I have zero'd out any copper in that bore before I began shooting cast in that pistol. (another variable issue that can foul you up and shared by sage guys on this board)

correct, the store bought 9mm .356 cast boolits dont lead, and shoot rather well, probly more accurate than me, at 20 yds i can smack the 10" steel all day long with them.

i just got the hardness tester, so i am off to test a storebought and one of mine.

results to follow

[jeepguy242]

ok, here are the results of the hardness test with my lee tester

storebought hard cast boolit, that works in my gun...
.3567 diameter, 16 bhn

my cast from lead that i was told was wheel weights. has been water dropped
.3567 diameter 8bhn

so my boolit is half as hard as a bullet that does not lead in my gun.... any thoughts? should i still go bigger, or should i mix in some antimaonial lead like monotype or linotype before i buy a new mold?

[MtGun44]

8 BHN is NOT water dropped wwt alloy. More like range lead, air cooled. AC wwts will run
about 11-14 BHN, water dropped much harder like maybe 20+.

You need bigger diam and better lube. Hardness is way overrated as a solution to
leading.

I shoot 8 BHN at near max velocity in .357 mags and in 9mms all the time with no leading.

FIT is the first thing to worry about, with lube quality and quantity next.

Bill

[zxcvbob]

If you want to harden your lead, mix in a little arsenical lead (like "magnum" shot) and water drop it. However, the indoor range lead that I cast and water dropped a couple of weeks ago continued hardening as it aged. (that surprised me) When they were first cast, I could scratch them with my thumbnail. Now, I can kind of mark them with my thumbnail, barely.

What you have isn't wheel weights, unless it's mostly stickon weights. But hardness is not as important as bullet fit and good lube. You should be able to shoot medium-soft lead in a 9mm without much leading.

[jeepguy242]

thanks guys, i will try slugging the bore this weekend and see where i need to be, i guess im gonna either have to go with a bigger mold, and add some other leads to harden this up, i was told it was wheel weights, i guess its not, least i got 118 lbs for free, cant be mad about that at all!!!!

perhaps i will do both, bigger mold and a little harder on the lead...

[gefiltephish]

As someone indicated earlier, you may very well have actual wheel weight alloy, but it could be stick-on vs clip-on. Stick-on is generally regarded as closer to pure lead and probably won't water harden much if at all.

As most everyone suggests doing first, size up, then deal with lube and hardness last. Beagle your mold up a couple thousands so you can get .358. There is a sticky on beagling.

[dak109]

Check this out:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737



Bill[/QUOTE]

After reading this link I stopped using my Lee TL and started using my 125gr. RF .38 mold. Made almost all of the difference in the world. A little work on the lube and not using the Lee FCD and I am having good results with my SR9c.

[jeepguy242]

i just ordered the lee 124 rnfp .358 mold, and some foundry type lead, so either way i think i am set to fix this. im gonna try the larger mold first, and if it still leads, i can harden up the lead with antimony.

results of the barrel slug were .3557 if i did it correctly.

[jeepguy242]

and you guys were right, it wasnt as hard or as scary as i originally thought.... thanks for all the help, i will keep you posted when my mold and lead come in...

[canyon-ghost]

I sympathize with you, my 9 didn't lead. All I can say is I got lucky on it. Tricky things, though.

[zxcvbob]

I shoot Magnus Bullets #505 in my 9mm. I bought a few thousand of them a couple of years ago when they were cheap. http://magnusbullets.com/store/page4.html I still have about 800 or so left. They don't lead even when I overload them to almost 1200 fps. (4.5 grains of Bullseye. It's definitely a "+P" load)

But I recently bought another 9mm pistol. A Walther P1, and I'm not sure it will take the abuse of heavy bullets at high velocities. So I've started casting my own Lee 356-120-TC boolits, and loading them a little more modestly. I haven't shot enough of them yet to know how they'll do. I'm lubing them with a mixture of Alox and paste wax. I have a .356 sizing die for my Lyman 4500, and a bunch of White Label lube sticks, but I am gonna try the liquid lube first.

[milprileb]

Well, I am confused so here goes:

a harder yet undersized commercial bullet does not lead

so... how can fit be the issue here. Seems to me OP has a

alloy issue here and a lube issue to correct.

Not to say I don't buy into proper fit (I do ! )

OP can fix the alloy and lube thing pronto and re test and that seems the
best approach before he seeks new sizing dies

[True.grit]

I was having bad luck with 9mm cast boolits until i got a Ranch Dog 9mm mold. The gas check keeps the leading from happening. I also use the 45/45/10 lube. These boolits are very accurate and do not lead all. I load with 4gr Unique. The boolits weigh 138 gr with ww and 2% tin. This is fun to shoot and are cheap to load. Try the Ranch Dog molds you will not regret it.

[Shiloh]

Hardness borders on irrelevance, with too hard being more often the problem than too
soft.

With 9mm, too small and too hard are the first, most common problems. Next is crummy
lube. You probably need .357 or .358 diam.

Most common commercial boolts are problematically too hard and have marginal crayola lube. There
are a few suppliers that are skilled, and make great boolits with good lubes, but many are just some
guy running a Magma and turning out a product that they know very little about.

Check this out:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737
Bill

My experience with commercial cast 9mm is that they are to small.
The 9mm was the most difficult caliber so far to get performing.
Only one of my three 9mm molds casts large enough to work.

Shiloh

[jeepguy242]

here is the latest, .358 124gn, and i raised the BHN to 13. these should shoot fine according to what you guys have taught me.

http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af295/jeepguy242/PC060011.jpg

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I size rangescrap bullets from Lee 125 gn TC, lube with BCP, size to .357, and have no leading in several different pistols, even with full power loads. An undersize bullet is most likely the culprit.

[jeepguy242]

ok, so i am new to this, could you explain to me what kind of lube is BCP, i know it stands for somthing, but i cant figure it out..


Thanks.
Don...