Consternation with 30-30 CB loads.

[popper]

Loading carolinacast RD .311 FN with H4895, 50/50/10 lube. First loading with 19-20 gr shot 1.5" @ 50 and no leading. Second loading from 22-25 gr, everything leaded but groups shrank to 1" @ 50. Moved to 100yds, results were disappointing. Vertical spread was ~1.5", horiz was my bad(~4"). Bullet drop was a surprising 5-6"!!. Using point blank SW with scope zero set at 50, fps is about 1500. Pressure is up quite a bit, as the gases grew ~.025. My conclusion is that pressure, velocity and leading changed between 19 and 22 gr, above that, nothing changed. I expected some linear change which didn't occur. Only thing I changed was the grains of powder, trickled and weighed each one. These flat nose CB have a speed limit or something? I did try some with 22 gr of lever powder. Stuff meters great but at that level the cases came out BLACK and dirty outside. No change in accuracy or drop. Any ideas?

[Dan Cash]

Sooty cases indicate insufficient charge to obturate the breech. I suspect your leading has to do with bullet fit, hardness and velocity. I don't have much experience with a tumble lube bullet but what experience I do have has been particularly unpleasant.

[Marlin Junky]

The culprit is probably the boolit itself, not the design, how it was made or perhaps how it was loaded into the cartridge case. Commercial cast boolits are generally very poor quality.

Several questions I have are:

What were you shooting it from?
Are the boolits extremely hard?
What are they lubed with?
Where in the barrel was the leading? (don't forget to take a bronze brush to the range so you can examine barrel condition)

MJ

[geargnasher]

+1 Dan.

Gear

[Wayne Smith]

"22 gr of lever powder"?? Not sure I'm familiar with that one. I'd guess your lube is inadequate, I haven't had much luck with tumble lubes beyond revolver shooting.

"Everything leaded but groups shrank" is not within my experience. The more leading the worse the accuracy in my experience. Since you moved out to 100 yds after shooting @50 I assume you were shooting @ 100 yds with a leaded barrel. This may account for some of your disappointment.

Second loading varied from 22 to 25 gr. H4895, where was the accuracy and where was the leading? Did the leading occur at 22gr?

[blaster]

Black dirty case is low pressure sign. Try increasing your powder charge. For a rifle I dip lube the tumble lube designs and it may not be to late for you to do so.

[UtopiaTexasG19]

I load a lot for my 30-30 with H4895 and the charge you are using I believe is considered a "cowboy" load which in my experience is very aneamic past 50 yards. Most of my better loads using H4895 with 150-165 grain bullets are in the 30.0-30.5 grain range but these are either FMJ bullets or cast bullets I made myself with gas checks installed. If you are set on using cast rounds for your 30-30 and they are not gas checked you may be stuck with the lower powder loads which in my experience are not great except for close in targets. The "cowboy" load I have tried out with H4895 at 21 grains and Missouri Cast 135 grain bullets ran a velocity of 1362 fps where as the FMJ's and my cast bullets with gas checkes and 30.0-30.5 grains of H4895 ran between 2063-2114 fps. depending on the weight of the bullet. I no longer use the cowboy loads with plain cast bullets as I like to shoot further out with loads I would be using for hunting also.
PS- Don't use the loads I have described unless you find them on the Hodgdon charts! I did them years back and the rates may have changed a slight amount.

[popper]

Marlin 336 MG. Lube is lla/jpw/ms. Bullets are .311 165 grn FN GC'd T/L's 2x, hard cast commercial. First target is 50, second is 100. All the holes are round so they are stable. I don't have a crony but using point blank SW, the hottest loads seem to run 1500 fps and the lube isn't sufficient. Same bullet, mild load, no leading. Seems like a line at 20 gr, below works - above works but leading. From bullet drop @ 100, any load above 20 doesn't appear to change fps.I loaded the lever powder as a hoot. Larry Gibson appears to have done some testing with it, successfully. It's a lower pressure powder I'm going to use in 308ME with J-Bs. It gave same accuracy as H4895 but pressure wasn't enough to seal the case - info for others wanting to try it. And the stuff meters like HP-38.

[popper]

UtopiaTexasG19- Yes, I started pretty low and worked up. I use that 30 gr load for J-B, wasn't sure I wanted to go that high in CB. I don't think 25 gr is a cowboy load. I shoot LC 170 which is similar to the MBC but heavier, get close to same results as the RD CB. This is my fun and 'target' rifle and I am trying to get the same results as J-B at 100. I guess I need a better lube. Leading occurred for everything above 20 grn. The leading is streaking the full length, with deposits on one side of the rifling. I haven't cleaned it yet to see how bad it really is. Can anybody tell me what antimony streaking looks like? When I figure this one out, I'll start casting for it.

[Larry Gibson]

popper

4895 is too slow a burning powder for that weight bullet in the 30-30 for cowboy action loads if that's what you're looking for. LeveRevoltution powder is also too slow to ignite and burn efficiently at the lower psi for those velocities. The lower psi and inefficient ignition may be causing the leading also. However, really suspect the lube is not doing it's job at 1500+ fps. I would relube those bullets with a softer lube such as Javelina, 2500+ or any "50-50" lube.

If you want loads upwards of 1500 fps then Unique or a smililar burning rate of powder would give better results, much better. If you want a good load in the 1800 fps range then 2400, 4227, 4198, 4759 or 5744 will all work well. I prefer 2400 or 4759 with a dacron filler for my 30-30 loads in the 1800 - 1950 fps with the 150 -160 gr cast bullet. H4895 will give good results for full hose loads of 2000 - 2100 fps with that bullet. You'll run out of case capacity before you'll get LeveRevolution to burn consistently with a cast bullet under 170 gr. That powder works very well with 177 - 190 gr cast bullets in the 30-30 for top end loads.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

I would relube those bullets with a softer lube such as Javelina, 2500+ or any "50-50" lube....Larry Gibson

Yes; however, the shallow rifling needs powders that burn similar to Re7 or 4198 if you want accuracy beyond about 1400 fps with mid-weight boolits.

Can you provide a BHN value?

MJ

[Char-Gar]

you need

1. Softer bullets
2. Better lube
3. Faster powder

[MT Chambers]

You need
1. faster horses
2. younger women
3.more money

[Sonnypie]

OH MY GOODNESS!
That would sure have to hurt!
Lordy, what a shootin accident! :holysheep

Oh...

You didn't casteration....

Nevermind. :oops:

[popper]

pardon the in-experience. Yes, H 4198 will probably perform better. Per the hodgdon load chart;
Hodgdon shows 17-21 H4895 for cast,1300-1550 fps, < 23k cup. Assume this is 160 LFN w/o GC, arbitrary alloy.
Hodgdon shows 15-17 H4198 for cast,1400-1650 fps, < 20.6k cup.
Hornady and hodgdon show 27-30 H4895 FTX 2000-2200 fps, < 35k cup.
My 25 gr load should be in the 1800 fps range, but seems to be limited to 1500 (CB BC is .31). I run the FTX with H4895 and get proper results(FTX BC is .33). Pressures are still good even though I am over the book max load for the CB. The only speed limiter I can guess at is the lube. Will running a poor lube slow the CB down? Will .001 oversized slow them down? They are commercial cast so BHN is probably > 18. The 4895 is serving me well for 243, 30-30 J and .308 so I need a good reason to change. I use unique also but for plinker loads. Thanks for the comments, they are all good.

[Larry Gibson]

Inexperience is nothing to worry about, we were all there at one time. Also please don't fret over the seemingly abruptness of some answers, it's just the way some of us talk on these things.

4895 is definitely a good cast bullet powder and you'll find I recommend it a lot. Jacketed bullets develop a lot more pressure because the jackets are harder. Loads with 4895 will be in the psi range where that powder burns efficiently. With cast bullets under 170 gr 4895 most often does not burn efficiently until the load is up over 26 gr, closer to 28 - 30 gr. That usually puts the velocity too high for good accuracy also. If you want accurate loads in the 1500 - 1800 fps range then a quicker burning powder is needed so it can ignite easier and burn efficiently under that lighter weight bullet.

I know what Hodgdon shows with H4895 but just because they show it doesn’t mean it’s always going to work well, safe most often, but well…….not all the time. I’ve been loading cast bullets with H4895 and the other 4895s since ’63. I’ve been tracking data and ignition efficiency with a chronograph since ’75. I’ve been pressure testing, including the 30-30, for several years now and just saying that while H4895 will get that bullet out the barrel it isn’t going to do it anywhere as well as 2400, 4227, 4198, 4957 or 5744 in the 1500 – 1950 fps range. “Well” in this case translates to accuracy with no leading. That is just my experience advising that. You of course are free to use whatever. If you try one of those powders with that bullet, particualrly with a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler, you will probably have less "consternation". Just trying to help.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

If you want to stick with 4895, change your lube, and sort boolits by weight, roundness and visual defects. The heavier lots will probably provide better accuracy. Only your rifle really knows how much pressure the load is generating unless you have a method for measuring it. Actually, using a softer, quality lube will probably lower the pressure even more thus resulting in a bit less velocity. The same would be true for a .310" boolit. Smokier cartridge cases will be the result. Try it and see for yourself.

If everything else is held constant, a boolit that is soft enough to obturate will create higher pressure vs. a very hard boolit because the softer boolit will try to expand into the barrel walls; i.e., it will act more like a semi-solid under pressure. The hard boolit will only have to overcome the resistance of engraving into the rifling.

MJ

[leadman]

I shoot the 311041, 170grs in my Contender 30-30 carbine. Load is 28grs of H4895 . Very accurate and could go a couple grains higher but no need to. Velocity is almost 2,100 fps.

If you want to shoot lower velocities try Unique around 10grs to start.

[EDK]

Do a search here for gmdr and work your way through to the reduced loads. He has a ton of data on a lot of cartridges and reduced loads.

Someone here sold me a spare group buy mould for 311041 PLAIN BASE(Thank You again, sir) and I've used a bunch with a low end load of RED DOT, among other powders. There are multiple threads on preferred loads also.

I haven't seen the NEW version of TRUE GRIT, but something about "a good gun, a Swiss watch, and a woman from anywhere." Some yankee dollars wouldn't hurt either.

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

[dano440]

I have had good luck with lee cast bullet hardness of about 15 br. 150 grain with a Hornady gas check sized to .310" with 8.5 grain of green dot powder. estimated 1325 to 1350 fps, CCI large rifle primers shot in Marlin 336 1:14 twist 30-30 Winchester with 20" barrel with very impressive accuracy out to 100-200 yards.

this load has won many of bets out at the gun club.

[atr]

+2 for Dan
+1 for Larry / righ on about Unique

my thought is why are they sized at 0.311? seems overly large to me for a .308 cal. I would venture to say that might also contribute to leading.

[Larry Gibson]

atr

my thought is why are they sized at 0.311? seems overly large to me for a .308 cal. I would venture to say that might also contribute to leading.

The .311 size seems to give the best fit in the throats of most all .30 cal rifles. Many of us consider fitting to throat more important that fitting to groove depth. I'll size .310 with a couple bullets that drop there "as cast" and they do alright, just not quite as good as .311s. Only time I size .309 is for use in the .30 Carbine as many M1 Carbine chambers won't take a .311 bullet and some won't take .310 sized bullets, at least with some of my milsurp cases.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

+2 for Dan
+1 for Larry / righ on about Unique

my thought is why are they sized at 0.311? seems overly large to me for a .308 cal. I would venture to say that might also contribute to leading.

Nah, not in an MG 336.

MJ

[gefiltephish]

I size to .312 for my Win94. Determined after casting the chamber.

[Centaur 1]

I cast them myself so my alloy and hardness is probably different than the ones you purchased, but I had similar problems with imr4895. I also had problems with soot and even lead on the outside of the cases. Everyones recomendations were to use a faster powder. If I remember right it was geargnasher who suggested reloader 7, so that's what I bought next. I still need more range time to get my load worked out, but what a difference. My boolits are now hitting close to factory rounds and I'm getting groups instead of patterns. I even messed around with this boolit and powder in my 30-06. First time out and I got moa groups with it using a charge of 30gr RL7.

[popper]

Larry The results of my Lever powder test. Last of 60 rnds in about 1 hr, so trigger finger getting tired. MG 336A .310 LC 170, GC, 22 grn Lvr, LLA/JPW/amsoil 90wt. Other than sooty cases, fps is a lot greater than H4895 of same grns.

[runfiverun]

that target tells me you are rolling the rifle causing the boolits to strike to the right, that or there was a 10-15 mph wind gust.
i would try either upping the charge a bit more,or a filler.
the filler would help with the ones that dropped low.
at 100 yds that green color would definately not help me shoot accurately, as it would fuzz up enough that i would lose my front sight to target relationship.
and i would have wandering groups.

[Larry Gibson]

popper

My guess on the accuracy problem is your loads are probably exceeding the RPM threshold for the 10" twist with that bullet. Any idea of velocity?

Larry Gibson

[gefiltephish]

With 60 rounds in an hour, possibly barrel temp is a factor?

<edit> My M94 heats up pretty quick, but I'm using 3031. </edit>