heavy .22 boolit

[mainiac]

Picked up a 225462 lyman mold,and made some boolits with it today.
They weigh around 66-66.3 grs. Will these stabilize in a 14 twist barrell?

Will probaly have to drive them pretty hard,but am hoping that they will at least stabilize......

BTW,,cant remember right off just how long they measure,but think it is close to .650.I do recall that they are about .100 longer then my 225415,and 225438.

[Larry Gibson]

Those might be questionable in a 14" twist. My 225462s run 59.8 gr fully dressed and are .620" long. They do well in 15" twists (.222, .223 and 22-250). Only one way to know about yours........

What cartridge?

Larry Gibson

[MT Gianni]

Mine run about 58 also. Might double check the scale?

[mainiac]

these weigh 64.2 naked,and 65.6 lubed and checked.
Boolit is .668 long.............

Gonna try them in a .222,for now.

Check,and bottom 2 lube grooves are hangin around in open space,down below the neck/shoulder junction.......cause this boolit has to be extremly deep seated.Nose is .224,and the bands are .227 as cast.

[Larry Gibson]

That's got to be about the heaviest and longest 225462 I've heard of! Is that a new mould or a used one?

Larry Gibson

[mainiac]

Older model,im sure.Dont know the age of it.

Im gonna shoot the rem700 sporter,duece,,,,,,,,this morning,so i will report on if these heavies will work or not.

I may even take my chrono with me,but as its wintertime,and cold up here,,i dont like to fool with crono in winter.

[quack1]

Wow, those are heavy. My 225462's drop at 57gr with my alloy. They work very well in my 1-14 twist 22-250 at a little over 2100fps. You might need to size the front end a little smaller to keep from having bullet sticking out below the neck. I never seemed to get really good accuracy in any caliber with bullet hanging below the neck.

[mainiac]

well,it seems that this heavy boolit will shoot in a 14 twist barrell.As a matter of fact,it will shoot really well. 2 groups with 2400 powder,one went 2100 f,.p.s., another that went 2460f.p.s.,and they both shot well under an inch,@50 yards. You can bet that im gonna shoot this boolit some more!


I also shot some loads with the 225438 boolit.This boolit will shoot an easy .5 @ 50 yards,and today i took the boolit up to 2664 f.p.s.,and i still held the half inch accuracy!!!!!Im amazed at this,cause accuracy usually failed for me @ 2400 f.p.s.,when i was working with my hornet.

BTW, i dont know about you fellers,but 2400 powder is my go to powder lately.It gives me high speed,or low speed,what ever i want,and i is the most accurate shooting powder i have used in alot of different cartridges in the last few years. Im really at that point,where i think i will buy a couple of kegs of 2400,and shoot up all my other powders to get rid of them.I can simplify,and still make exellent loads.Think its cool,that this powder has been around for a hundred years,and is still getting it done!!!Might be dirty burning in certain loads,but who cares......

[Larry Gibson]

I consider the .222 Rem w/14' twist to be the .22 CF cast bullet cartridge. Kick myself solidly every time I think about the mistake of letting my M788 go to a friend. Suggest you try H4895 starting at 19 gr and working up to case capacity. That powder worked the best in my .222 with the 225462.

Larry Gibson

[mainiac]

I consider the .222 Rem w/14' twist to be the .22 CF cast bullet cartridge. Kick myself solidly every time I think about the mistake of letting my M788 go to a friend. Suggest you try H4895 starting at 19 gr and working up to case capacity. That powder worked the best in my .222 with the 225462.

Larry Gibson

Will try that 4895 powder,thank you.
I have another .222,,its a old sako heavy barrell,and it has a micro-groove barrell. Gonna try that bird some day,,,should be good for at least one migraine!

The .222 has to be one of the best shooting guns that was ever made.Its a shame people forgot about them,when the .223 craze hit.

[felix]

The case capacity is perfect for BR work at a hunnert outside. At 200 through 300, the capacity is a little light, and so are the bullets. Therefore, enter the 28 grain case with 68 grainers in 243. ... felix

[mainiac]

Felix, i remember on here a year ago or so,you was wanting the most accurate .22 boolit.
You went with a mold im not familar with,and my brain dont remember to good,so i done recall.

How did you end up with your quest? I done have no luck with search function,on this site,so i probaly couldnt find it anyways.

To folks in general,,,,,,,,whats the most accurate .22 boolit mold?

[stubshaft]

To folks in general,,,,,,,,whats the most accurate .22 boolit mold?


Anything from a 225107- 225415 - 225438 - 225462 - RCBS 22-55 - Bator etc. any one of these is the most accurate in certain guns. There is no one boolit that is the "most accurate" if there were then no one would bother with the rest.

[Larry Gibson]

Got to disagree; I've all 4 of the mentioned Lyman moulds and have been shooting them for years in numerous 22 CFs from Hornet to 22-250. In 14" or faster twists the 225462 almost always produced better and more uniform accuracy (can't even remember when it didn't). The 225438 is the top performer in Hornets with 16" twists. The 225107 and 224415 both do well at 1800 fps or so and below but are "iffy" at hgher velocities.

Larry Gibson

[mainiac]

Ive noticed this as well,the 415 boolit shoots well,as long as ya dont stand on the gas pedal.438 likes to speed....

[stubshaft]

In my guns the 225415 has given me the best all around accuracy., the 225450 has been the hardest to work with and within the various speed ranges the others have accounted for themselves in their respective calibers which are 218 M Bee, Hornet, K-Hornet, 219 Wasp, 222, 223, 220 Swift and 220 Weatherby Rocket.

The point being Larry that there is no magic boolit in my estimation that is "the best" bullet.

[Hang Fire]

I haven't shot .22 cast for many years. But somewhere I have a Lyman DC mold which throws 45 grainers with WW. Will have to resurrect it and see how it still shoots.

[rhbrink]

Will try that 4895 powder,thank you.
I have another .222,,its a old sako heavy barrell,and it has a micro-groove barrell. Gonna try that bird some day,,,should be good for at least one migraine!

The .222 has to be one of the best shooting guns that was ever made.Its a shame people forgot about them,when the .223 craze hit.

Sako 222 heavy barrel = MIGRAINE boy are you in for a surprise. I've got a old Sako 222 Mag heavy barrel that shoots the '415 just great. I use about 10 grains of 2400 and it shot so well at 100 yards never bothered to try any other powder but would think that 4198 to 4895 would also be excellent.

[Larry Gibson]

stubshaft

No arguement that the 225415 can't be a very accurate bullet in .22CFs. It is and I've used it, still use it, in several CFs. I also don't claim the 225462 to be a "magic bullet", that's your wording not mine. What I am saying is that if one has a 22 CF with a 14" twist or faster the 225462 will, most often, provide provide equal accuracy over a wider range of velocities. It is a Lovern design and most Lovern designs are more conducive to a wider velocity range of accuracy. Both the 225462 and the 225415 will give the same degree of accuracy below 1800 fps. The 225415 is very, very difficult to get consistent accuracy with above 2000 fps but the 225462 seems to thrive above 2000 fps. So does 225438.

Now that is simply my exerience shooting those 4 cast bullets (225107 included) for 38 years in numerous 22 CF rifles of various cartridges. Your experience in your rifles apparently is different. That's fine, doesn't mean my experience is wrong nor does it mean yours is wrong...just means different experiences. No cause for an argument, eh?

Anyways, back to your 225462s; can you post pictures of the mould marking and the cavity?

Larry Gibson

[Tracy]

224415 do(es) well at 1800 fps or so and below but are "iffy" at higher velocities.

Larry Gibson

The current 55 grain or the older 45 grain version, or both?
The reason I ask is I have the current 55 grain version and have shot it from a couple of 1:9 twist .223s and a 1:16 twist Hornet, both at well over 1800 fps with reasonable results. In the Hornet I have to run it over 2000 fps to stabilize.

[stubshaft]

Not trying to argue with you Larry and for the record I do hold your thoughts and opinions in high regard.

This is the 462 mold that I have been using, I got it about 26 years ago.

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the pictures, nice looking Ideal mould. Sure enough is a 225462 design.....wonder why it casts heavy???? Bet on of the AR guys with a 7, 9 or 12" twist would like to have it!

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Stubshaft, I have not casted one round out of that fat Bator you sent me. That should provide some info regarding the Loverin style without being grooved to the top. That boolit will be shot in the BR gun which has a 50 miles worth of freebore now. The gun has 15K rounds of 40K CUP minimum, the first of which were 750 rounds of competition condoms. Cast boolits only thereafter. This activity has proven to me that heat is the only parameter to worry about, besides ramrod crown destruction.

Maniac, so far no boolit has shown any truth at all velocities consistently. The 646 is good, and so is the small Bator. Because of the difference in design between these two, one has to wonder if there is an all around boolit at all usable velocities. The Bator was very good at 1800; the 646 at 2400. Good meaning all boolits touching (2's) at 50 yards such that flags were not needed on the particular day (very rare).

... felix

[Marlin Junky]

How is the quality of current 225646 molds?

Is the "small" Bator available for purchase? Does small mean light or narrow diameter?

MJ

[stubshaft]

How is the quality of current 225646 molds?

Is the "small" Bator available for purchase? Does small mean light or narrow diameter?

MJ

Do a search on "Bator" to find out the differences. They were available at Midsouth but haven't checked recently to see if they are in stock.

Larry - I have a 7" AR and can't drive the 462 much more than 1700 without accuracy issues even when cast of pure Lino. Personally I think it is strippin in the bore because of the fast twist. No problems in the triple deuce or K-Hornet with 12" twist.

Felix - Good to see you up and about again! One day you'll get around to casting with the Large Bator.:bigsmyl2:

[rhbrink]

I think that the very best of the 22 molds are not here yet take a look at the NOE version of the Eagan molds. The few that I have samples of shot excellent and really didn't spend much time trying to work up a load, didn't have enough boolits. I'm thinking that the 62 grain one is scheduled in March with the 55 grain I believe it is sometime later.

[felix]

RH, see if you can get the dimensions so we can compare with what we have now. TIA. ... felix

[felix]

Small means 2245 diameter, MJ. The BR has to have 2240 max in the case to avoid any more turning. I could go thinner for the fatter Bator and still have enough friction for the loads I am shooting, MAYBE. I don't want to fool around with different powder speeds now, though, unless there is a dramatic advantage with that fat boolit to do so. I am not sure if I am capable anymore to do the R&D needed for an extensive ordeal just for ONE boolit design. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

stubshaft

Larry - I have a 7" AR and can't drive the 462 much more than 1700 without accuracy issues even when cast of pure Lino. Personally I think it is strippin in the bore because of the fast twist. No problems in the triple deuce or K-Hornet with 12" twist.

Not wanting to or going to get this off track but the RPMs are 175,880+ at 1700 fps out of the 7" twist. I've shot them that fast out of my own 7" twist AR with very poor accuracy also. I didn't find evidence of the bullets stripping but that's' not to say it can't happen. Out of my 12" twist M700V accuracy is consistently under 1.5 moa at 2500+ fps. Same load (I use a case full of RL22) out of my 12" twist AR runs 2350 fps and gives 3 moa or so accuracy. The difference being the 20X scope on the M700V vs the 1 moa dot of the EOFtek on the AR and the M700V is obviously more accurate than the AR. My Savage 24V with a 14" twist and 4X scope does in between accuracywise with the same load.

Larry Gibson

[Moonie]

Thanks for the pictures, nice looking Ideal mould. Sure enough is a 225462 design.....wonder why it casts heavy???? Bet on of the AR guys with a 7, 9 or 12" twist would like to have it!

Larry Gibson

Not with a nose at .224 we wouldn't, bolt has to close for it to fire, been there with an incorrectly made bator.

[Larry Gibson]

Not with a nose at .224 we wouldn't, bolt has to close for it to fire, been there with an incorrectly made bator.

Depends. Most ARs have milspec chambers with longer throats. My 7, 9 and 12" twist bareled milspec chambered ARs chamber my 225462 just fine. They are sized "as cast" at .227" and the top of the GC is seated to base of the case neck. I use a slight crimp in the 1st lube groove, not the scrape groove. The driving band is slightly engraved by the leade but I've had no chambering issues. They also chamber fine in my M700V and M24V Savage which have milspec chambers.

Larry Gibson

[mainiac]

Larry gibson,,,shot the 4895 loads today with the 225438. Started @ 19 grs like you said.19 gr load gave me a 1.060 group,but had 4 go into .285!!! Gonna try that again! Went up a grain at a time,and when i got over 21 started having all vertical groups??????Think next time ill start at 19,and go down.

[felix]

Mainiac, that load has been used before at 19 grains and the results have been good. Instead, change to a slightly faster powder, like another lot of the same, or try a 4064 version. 4064 has larger graunules and should give a better ignition. Your looking for a similar group with no fliers. Are you using a bench gun? It sure looks thataway. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

According to QuickLoad, you guys aren't even burning 75% of those 19 grain charges behind 225438. When you look down the barrels after shooting, are there kernels of powder laying in the barrel?

What type of alloys are you shooting?

MJ

[felix]

Prolly true, MJ. I have never shot that load, but lots of folks have. I typically use N105 or N110 to get the 40K. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

So is this a mold you guys would recommend:

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000622BATOR6#tab1

Will it stay hot enough to cast "perfect" boolits w/o carbon in the cavities or would I be better off trying the 2-cavity mold first. The link from Midsouth's site to the designer's drawing/spec's is not working.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Prolly true, MJ. I have never shot that load, but lots of folks have. I typically use N105 or N110 to get the 40K. ... felix

Felix, what type of alloy and twist are you using for your 40K loads?

MJ

[Larry Gibson]

Larry gibson,,,shot the 4895 loads today with the 225438. Started @ 19 grs like you said.19 gr load gave me a 1.060 group,but had 4 go into .285!!! Gonna try that again! Went up a grain at a time,and when i got over 21 started having all vertical groups??????Think next time ill start at 19,and go down.

Could be you are just pushing it too fast for the twist at 21 gr. Right at 19 gr H4895 with a 1/2 gr dacron filler has been my accuracy load with H4895 for many years in rifles with 12" twists. Suggest down the road, if you want higher velcoity, you try a slower powders such as Varget, AA4350, RL19, H4831SC and even RL22.

However, that load of H4895 with the 225462 has always been my "go to" load for "load 'em up and go shoot 'em" cast loads in my 12 and 14" twist .223s.:lovebooli

BTW; I don't think Quick Load factors in the burning efficiency caused by the dacron filler.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

...BTW; I don't think Quick Load factors in the burning efficiency caused by the dacron filler.

Larry Gibson

There's no provision for adding dacron in QL. :lol:

Do you weigh the dacron, Larry?

MJ

[Larry Gibson]

Mj

Not normaly. I've samples of various weights I use as refernce when cutting the batting into strips and then chunks of the size needed. Besides, it's not the weight of the dacron that causes the better powder burning effeciency. Were that it you could simply add the weight of the dacron to the weight of the bullet. What the dacron filler does is hold the powder in one position (against the primer) for consistent ignition. It also reduces the internal case capacity which creates a better environment for the powder to burn efficiently. That is the reason that the velocities are higher and the psi's are higher with the same load when a dacron filler is used. Quick Load does not account for the reduction of case capacity nor the increase in burning efficiency when a dacron filler, or any other filler for that matter, is used.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Pat, the 646 mold I have is the gage used to measure "weight". I mix various lead(s) until 63 grains is reached, which are typically low tin types. High antimony, though, and water quenched. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

Pat, the 646 mold I have is the gage used to measure "weight". I mix various lead(s) until 63 grains is reached, which are typically low tin types. High antimony, though, and water quenched. ... felix

Felix,

Would type metal that fractures rather than bends (I think it registers about BHN 26 aircooled) make a good .22 alloy? Would it be possible to create a varmint boolit with such an alloy that would break up when striking small varmints at 1600+ fps?

MJ

[felix]

PERFECT, Pat! The trick is to get those hard dealies to shoot straight, but they are indeed very safe to shoot and are preferred for that reason alone. Beware of that hard boolit with low velocity apps. They don't like to destruct when in glanced off flight (long range apps). ... felix

[mainiac]

Mainiac, that load has been used before at 19 grains and the results have been good. Instead, change to a slightly faster powder, like another lot of the same, or try a 4064 version. 4064 has larger graunules and should give a better ignition. Your looking for a similar group with no fliers. Are you using a bench gun? It sure looks thataway. ... felix

Beleave it or not felix,this gun is a rem 700 sporter,vintage 2002. Using a burris 6x hbr scope.
Its not br quality gun,but i do have br guns here,so know how to make them tick....

Some day,i would like to get a .243 mold,and see just what a 6ppc could do,with cast....

[mainiac]

According to QuickLoad, you guys aren't even burning 75% of those 19 grain charges behind 225438. When you look down the barrels after shooting, are there kernels of powder laying in the barrel?

What type of alloys are you shooting?

MJ

19 gr load shot pretty clean for me,,maybe just light specs,no kernals.

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks Mainiac,

I hate to keep asking questions about 225438 here because this is supposed to be a thread about .22 heavy weights, but do you know how the quality and castability ranks on current Lyman 438 molds? My original intention was to purchase a 60+ grain mold so the little mold block's temperature would be more likely to remain stable during the entire casting session.

MJ

[mainiac]

Thanks Mainiac,

I hate to keep asking questions about 225438 here because this is supposed to be a thread about .22 heavy weights, but do you know how the quality and castability ranks on current Lyman 438 molds? My original intention was to purchase a 60+ grain mold so the little mold block's temperature would be more likely to remain stable during the entire casting session.

MJ

I bought this mold brand new about 3 years ago.Very happy with it.Casts almost exactly .225.