>357mag. keyholing

[bogman]

I have a new Ruger 77/.357magnum rifle. It shoots pretty good with most loads, but my 158gr. cast SWC load will put 3 out of 5 in the bullseye & the other 2 will keyhole. no certain order of when it will happen. my load is 6.5gr. of unique & a .358dia. cast SWC , they are very accurate out of my S&W's. jacketed bullets & Tenn valley bullets 180gr. cast TC's all shot good. any idea's ?

[Bret4207]

Obviously a fit issue. First I'd check and make sure my seating die isn't squeezing the boolits down in size. Then I'd see if I could try .359's in it. You can also try upping the powder a bit and see if hammering the boolit bigger will work.

[Larry Gibson]

That is simply a magnum level load PB'd load developed for a revolver being used out of a rifle. The rifle is driving the PB'd bullet to fast. Suggest you back off the load and develop it for accuracy using revolver load data for the rifle. Suggest velocities be kept under 1150 fps out of the rifle for best accuracy. Then use the rifle developed load in the revovler. It will probably shoot just fine.

If you want a magnum level performance load for the revolver that is also accurate in the rifle switch to a GC'd cast bullet and use 2400, 4227, BlueDot or H110. However, again, it will be best to develop the load in the rifle and then just use that load in the revolver.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Lar, not arguing, but 6.5 Unique and a 158 in a 357 case? That doesn't sound any too hot to me. We have people using 5.5-6.0 in 38 cases! Is my memory starting to go too?

[Larry Gibson]

Bret

Let's not mention "memories" as we'd probably both be in trouble.......:???:

5.5 gr Unique under a 150 gr LSWC bullet in a .38 SPL case is max +P.

I've pressure tested it under the 150 gr 358477 and at 5.5 it generates 19,300 psi(M43). At 6 gr it generates 25,200 psi(M43).

With what has been published as a max .357 load in 357 cases at 7.5 gr runs 37,300 psi(M43). That is 2,300 psi over the SAAMI MAP and is at SAAMI MPLM psi's. Thus 6.5 gr Unique under the OP's 158 gr bullet is probably pushing 30,000 psi, just under the SAAMI MAP and up with most factory .357 magnum loads. Sad to say but what we "thought" was right back in the day most often was a little hot.

However, it may or may not be a max .357 load but it certianly, in my experience with cast in a .357 rifle, probably pushing that bullet of the OPs too fast. I've no experience with the Ruger .357 rifle but the was basing my suggestion on my experience with other rifles but mostly because he said it was shooting the 180 cast ok. They, no doubt, are at a lower more accurate velocity given the weight. Just mu thoughts is all.......now, what were we talking about......where did I leave my memory.....[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

[beagle]

Is by any chance the SWC you're shooting the 357446???? If so, they have natural tendencies go give flyers. Something in the design. From my experiences and my HO./beagle

[bogman]

My load is about 2gr. under max. with my chrony they are right at 1000fps from my 6" model #19-4. I would not think that it would not be a whole lot faster from a 18.5" bbl. my speer #11 manual ,shows about 250fps difference between the pistol & 18.5" rifle

[Larry Gibson]

My load is about 2gr. under max. with my chrony they are right at 1000fps from my 6" model #19-4. I would not think that it would not be a whole lot faster from a 18.5" bbl. my speer #11 manual ,shows about 250fps difference between the pistol & 18.5" rifle

Probaly putting that bullet right at 1200 - 1250 fps....right above the sonic transition range which may be doing the deed to the bullet. Suggest again dropping the load a bit and work up in the rifle. I find best accuracy with most .357, .44 and 45 Colt rifles using PB'd cast bullets to be in the 1050 - 1150 fps range. Accuracy improves with some cast bullets in the 1300-1500 fps range but a GC'd cast bullet is best for the rifle at higher velocity.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Still better check for seater influenced boolit reduction too!

[bogman]

My bullet is a standard Ga. Arms 158gr. cast SWC. I have shot thousands & thousands of them from pistols & several rifles. the only problems I ever had was with two different NEF .357 Handi rifle's neither would ever shoot that load. my little Marlin 1894c loved them. three of these bullets hit right in the center of the 1.5" bullseye, two out of five hit sideways.

[Bret4207]

Bret

Let's not mention "memories" as we'd probably both be in trouble.......:???:

5.5 gr Unique under a 150 gr LSWC bullet in a .38 SPL case is max +P.

I've pressure tested it under the 150 gr 358477 and at 5.5 it generates 19,300 psi(M43). At 6 gr it generates 25,200 psi(M43).

With what has been published as a max .357 load in 357 cases at 7.5 gr runs 37,300 psi(M43). That is 2,300 psi over the SAAMI MAP and is at SAAMI MPLM psi's. Thus 6.5 gr Unique under the OP's 158 gr bullet is probably pushing 30,000 psi, just under the SAAMI MAP and up with most factory .357 magnum loads. Sad to say but what we "thought" was right back in the day most often was a little hot.

However, it may or may not be a max .357 load but it certianly, in my experience with cast in a .357 rifle, probably pushing that bullet of the OPs too fast. I've no experience with the Ruger .357 rifle but the was basing my suggestion on my experience with other rifles but mostly because he said it was shooting the 180 cast ok. They, no doubt, are at a lower more accurate velocity given the weight. Just mu thoughts is all.......now, what were we talking about......where did I leave my memory.....[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

Hmmmm, kinda makes me wonder what some of the loads I used back in my "Quest for speed" days that even I admitted were hot were really running! I don't know if that Oehler or yours is a gift or a curse, you sure take the fun out of a lot of things.:mrgreen:

Now as for Memories...was that a Dean martin song? Or was that Paul Anka? Elvis? I forget...

[bogman]

Elvis, the king :)

[tbird1960]

If you shoot some jacketed bullets and they shoot all right then shoot a cast bullet and have the problem again then the cast bullets are not holding the rifling. Either the cast bullet is too small or the bore is too big. You might try sluging the barrel and measuring the bullet.

[williamwaco]

Range Report:

My .357 is a Winchester 92 ( new model )

I use the Ballisti-Cast #651 (H&G) #51 clone.
Cast of clipon wheel weights with 1% tin added.
Sized .357 Lubed with Lyman 50/50
BNH around 13.

I have two "standard" .357 loads I have used for years.
13 gr 2400 ( Lyman says this is about 1650 from the rifle )
7.8 gr Herco( LYMAN SAYS THIS IS OVER MAX ) and around 1500 fps in the rifle.
These loads were developed for the revolver over a period of 50 years.

I have a new load I have been trying:
11.6 gr A No9 Lyman puts this one at about 1400.

All three of these loads will put 10 shots in two to three inches at 50 yards with a tang sight.
There is no sign of yaw. All the holes are perfectly round and sharp.

4 to 4.2 grains of A #2 in .38 special cases chronographs 1090. This load produces 5 to 6 inch groups with all other variables constant. No sign of yaw.

Now the interesting part?

That 7.8 grains of Herco load regularly produces one keyhole in five shots from My Thompson Contender.

What does all this mean?

Some perfectly good loads just will not work in some perfectly good guns?


.

[bogman]

William, I am starting to think that. They never would shoot without keyholing in my NEF .357 Handi rifle. The Tenn. Valley 180gr. cast bullets shoot great.

[geargnasher]

How about the long jump to the throat in the rifle? We were hashing out some accuracy problems in the smokeless paper-patching forum and Nobade mentioned that many rifle throats are cut very long, SAAMI specs them that way. This can cause all kinds of problems especially with faster powders. Perhaps a chamber slug or cast would be in order here? Not sure how the Ruger rifle chamber throats are cut.

Gear

[btroj]

I don't own a Ruger 357 but will state that my Marlin hates swc bullets. Throws them all over. Mitmshoots grat with jacketed or a bullet with a nice tapered ogive that gently eras the body diameter. It likes the Mihec 359640 really well.
I tink the throat is so short and the angle so steep it doesn't let a swc center up well at all. The tapered nose bullets can center up better than a swc with the full diameter front band. Think aout it, what is easier to start Ina hole- something with a taper on it or a fully cylindrical pin?
The key holing is probably made worse by poor bullet fit. I bet a 359 bullet would be better. I wonder if the load is leading at all. Knowing that would certainly help.

I have found my 357 Marlin to be the toughest of my 5 Marlins to find a good load for. The 45-70 and 32-20 are not picky at all. They have shot great from load one. This sucker drove me nuts for 6 months until I got the right bullet.

[Bret4207]

It is possible that that gun just doesn't like Unique with that boolit. I will leave the question of charge/pressure alone for now, but it's still a fit issue- dynamic fit. Pull a loaded round and check for seater squish first. If that's okay then consider a slightly larger boolit and see what happens.

Whoops! You're using commercial cast? Well, consider a powder change and see how the boolit does. Dynamic fit, the final fit the combo of throat, barrel and powder give you is different with different powders.

[44man]

It also begs the question of twist? Maybe the rifle just wants a heavier boolit.
Yet powder work should find a velocity/twist match.

[bogman]

Most .357's have a 1 in 18 3/4" twist, the Ruger has a 1 in 16" twist. it shoots 158gr. jacket bullets great & also the Tenn. valley 180 cast Truncated cone bullet (.358dia.) I will try a few loads with A 2400 & my 158SWC. I wonder if the bevel base on the bullet, has any effect in the rifle.

[MtGun44]

So far we have no info on groove diam or boolit diam. Yes, he says ".358 diam cast" but is this
from a micrometer or the side of the box? No info about groove diam at all.

FIT - FIT - FIT. First things first.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

My bullet is a standard Ga. Arms 158gr. cast SWC. I have shot thousands & thousands of them from pistols & several rifles. the only problems I ever had was with two different NEF .357 Handi rifle's neither would ever shoot that load. my little Marlin 1894c loved them. three of these bullets hit right in the center of the 1.5" bullseye, two out of five hit sideways.

Checked their web site but no picture of that bullet. Is it a hard cast with a bevel base?

Larry Gibson

[bogman]

Sorry, it is a hard cast .358dia. SWC with a bevel base. .358 dia. from my Starrett 0-1" mic.
have not slugged the bbl. yet, but it shoots Tenn. Valley 180gr. Truncated cone bullets great & they are .358dia.(measured) flat base. as I said in my other post, I wonder if the bevel base on the SWC could be a problem in a long throated rifle. I have been told that Rugers have long throats.

[Larry Gibson]

I've no doubt now that the load is just too much for that BB'd bullet. Drop back on your loads as I suggested if you want to use that bullet. You should get good accuracy around 950 - 1050 fps with that BB'd bullet.

If you want max performance with accuracy from your rifle then a true FB'd cast will be needed or, preferably, a GC'd bullet. I still suggest with those you stay within handgun loading data so you don't get into trouble with "rifle" loads in your handgun.

Larry Gibson

[bogman]

I may just try to find a 158gr. Truncated flat base bullet. Tenn. valley bullets does not make a 158gr. TC, their 180 TC does shoot great, but 158gr. jacketed bullets are alot easier to find than 180gr. jacketed & that way I can pretty much use the same site setting for cast & jacketed bullets both being 158gr.

[Larry Gibson]

Might be hard to find as most commercial cast are BB'd. You just might have to start casting your own:lovebooli

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Oh boy! Should have known to ask if it was HARDCAST!!! and BB. There's your problem. Sorry, but I have little faith in the BB idea and the HARDCAST is advertising hype.

Hey, something you could try is advertising in the Swapin' and Sellin' section for a couple hundred FB SWCs cast of good alloy at .359. See how they work. You still might have a finicky rifle but it might not be too. If you want to shoot the ones you have up then follow Larrys advice.

Did you pull some loaded rounds and check for squish? It's pretty common.

[geargnasher]

DOH! I missed the Tennessee Valley part. That's the problem. Even if the boolits are any good the lube is probably only good for flux.

Bret, one advantage of Ludicrously Hard Boolits is that they do tend to resist squish.

Ten bonus points if you got the Spaceballs reference.

Gear

[MtGun44]

What is the exact diameter of the ones that work?

Too hard, often too small and useless lube. I love commercial cast boolits. . . . .

Bill

[bogman]

The Tenn. valley bullets, are the ones that work great, they are not bevel based, but they are 180gr.(.358 dia. flat base) & I want to shoot 158gr. they are also Truncated cone (tapered flat point) & I want to shoot SWC's(flat base)

[Bret4207]

DOH! I missed the Tennessee Valley part. That's the problem. Even if the boolits are any good the lube is probably only good for flux.

Bret, one advantage of Ludicrously Hard Boolits is that they do tend to resist squish.

Ten bonus points if you got the Spaceballs reference.

Gear

This is probably unbelievable and some sort of major character flaw, but I never saw "Spaceballs". I caught the first 5 minutes or so a few months back, but that's it. I apologize, profusely. Mea Culpa.

Now, if you'd like to discuss "Young Frankenstein" or "The Princess Bride" or "Dr Strangelove" or "The Russians are Coming!" or "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" I'm your man!

[geargnasher]

You should treat yourself sometime, Bret. Like all Mel Brooks satirical movies, it takes a popular film and adds every possible phallus and flatulance joke to it. Great fun after about two gin and tonics.

Sleep well, and dream of large women...

Gear

[Bret4207]

That's inconceivable!

[44man]

There you go, straying into fun again! :bigsmyl2:
I would not have it any other way, I love to laugh a little in the AM. Better for me then the grumpy wife! [smilie=l:
Anyway, I just read an article about the Ruger, Handloader. I have to find the rag, upstairs somewhere. The 158 shot better if I remember.