The perfect cartridge case for cast bullets is ...

[Molly]

... probably imposible for everyone to agree on, but I'd like to welcome you to give your preferrences, and tell why. There's no restriction: You can design a case in your mind and describe why it's perfect for you. Or you can pick a factory round, or a wildcat to defend.

I'll start out: I'm particularly fond of the 30-30 Win and 30-40 Krag with cast bullets. Cast bullets can bring out their complete potential, the long necks are superb for covering the lube grooves, and protecting the body of the bullet. But they're rimmed, which can be problematic in most bolt action rifles, and - good as they are - I think I'll argue for different round.

First, I'd have to go with the 30 caliber. Larger rounds can be loaded down for small game, but they tend to be pretty destructive. Smaller calibers are very limited in mold selection availability, and - to my mind - pretty questionable for deer with cast bullets.

At one time, I would have argued for the 308 win: Plenty of case capacity for cast bullets, available in a huge range of rifle types, qualities and costs. It has a well deserved reputation on the target range too, and frankly, I kill a lot more paper targets than squirrels or deer.

But the .308 lost out because of its short neck. That may be entirely adequate to hold military jacketed bullets, but loading cast bullets in it required a real juggling act to keep dust and dirt off of my lube and out of my bore. I won't even discuss the results of trying to carry them in my pocket.

But the short neck was the ONLY problem I had with the 308. So I designed the 308CB round to take care of the problem. It's simplicity itself: Just run an 8x57 Mauser case into a .308 sizer, with the decapping pin removed. This leaves you with a .308 body, but a neck a lot like a 30-40 Krag: you can seat bullets like 311291 and 311290 to the base of the neck, and still have all the lube in the neck. You don't even have to buy new dies. Perfect!

The really neat thing about this approach is that it allows you to continue to use factory 308 ammo if you want: All you do is elongate the chamber for the longer neck, which will remove any erosion that might be developing and essentially gives you a new throat. With factory rounds, you've just introduced a little bit of freebore, which won't hurt jacketed bullets a bit. No changes in headspace, etc are involved, and safety is not compromised in any way. It's the perfect solution for that cheap milsurp 308 mauser that you've been looking at in recent gunshows.

OK. Your turn. What'cha think of my idea, and how is yours any better?

Molly

[KCSO]

I think that is a stroke of pure genius! You need to patent that!

[MT Chambers]

Or you could get a barrel chambered for the .30 BR. and have the best case for cast bullets from an accuracy standpoint, and of course everyone knows that the 45/70 is the perfect case from the hunting standpoint, easy huh!!!!

[felix]

Molly, your idea is a great one indeed. The same as would be with the 30-06 case via the 8mm Mauser die, but with the neck cut off (very little) to match that of the 30-30. That one is my idea. Actually, yours and mine are one in the same for scope. The problem with the 30 version is with the length of the final boolit in 14 twist for the 30, using a 180 grainer boolit, the ideal weight for a longer range "deer" gun at 2400 or less. Using the same idea in the 8mm will provide for a genuine 180 grainer out of WW using a 16 twist. 14 twist would be the same effect for the 30 as 16 twist for the 32. ... felix

The objective is to pick the boolit, the diameter and weight, and then have the case size to propel it to 2400 fps, the appropriate limit for a cheap lead composition. For competition, though, a much smaller case is called for because the velocity should be entirely in a safe range for the most accurate boolit, which is often more towards the softer side in guns that are not "perfect". Here the velocity sought should be 2100 or less, and more like 1800 to be extra safe. ... felix

[madcaster]

Molly,
Hark,is that a Martini action on your byline?Nice!
I really don't know of a better cast bullet cartridge than a .30/30.
But I do like a .30/06 and a .222....

[7-30 Waters]

My vote goes for the 350 Remington Magnum. I can reload any cast 35 cal lead I want. 150 grain .357 all the way up to 220 grain .358. I prefer RCBS 205 gr. w/gc sized .359

Case neck length is perfect for cast leads.

7-30 Waters

[buck1]

...

But the short neck was the ONLY problem I had with the 308. So I designed the 308CB round to take care of the problem. It's simplicity itself: Just run an 8x57 Mauser case into a .308 sizer, with the decapping pin removed. This leaves you with a .308 body, but a neck a lot like a 30-40 Krag: you can seat bullets like 311291 and 311290 to the base of the neck, and still have all the lube in the neck. You don't even have to buy new dies. Perfect!

The really neat thing about this approach is that it allows you to continue to use factory 308 ammo if you want: All you do is elongate the chamber for the longer neck, which will remove any erosion that might be developing and essentially gives you a new throat. With factory rounds, you've just introduced a little bit of freebore, which won't hurt jacketed bullets a bit. No changes in headspace, etc are involved, and safety is not compromised in any way. It's the perfect solution for that cheap milsurp 308 mauser that you've been looking at in recent gunshows.



Molly

WOW! I have had knock down drag out fights with the 308 win neck. Have you actually done this?

[357maximum]

subscribe.....

[Bass Ackward]

Case neck length isn't the limiter you think. Many people simply don't understand how little lube they can get by with. Or you can design bullets around it like the 311299.

More importantly than case design to me is throat design. Especially if you want the flexibility to shoot soft lead for hunting or if you simply want to avoid the abrasive nature of antimony.

And of coarse you haven't discovered the cast bullet bore diameter yet either. :grin:

[k8bor]

The .356 winchester in my Marlin. The round is rimmed and resembles a classic for the nostalgia factor, and given the power levels you can load to, will do for anything from bunny rabbits to closer range elk.

[45 2.1]

Case neck length isn't the limiter you think. He doesn't want exposed lube. Many people simply don't understand how little lube they can get by with. John, I remember you posting boolits with huge lube capacity. Have you changed your mind on this? I for one don't like harder lubes and lube shouldn't cost enough to be much of a consideration with several suppliers now. Or you can design bullets around it like the 311299. He likes the 311290, which warrants what he suggested.

More importantly than case design to me is throat design. Your going to have to explain, you have said in past threads that the throat changes rapidly. If so, you would loose your prime dimensions immediately. Especially if you want the flexibility to shoot soft lead for hunting or if you simply want to avoid the abrasive nature of antimony. Hmmm

And of coarse you haven't discovered the cast bullet bore diameter yet either. Only important for the nose diameter.

[Molly]

I think that is a stroke of pure genius! You need to patent that!

(VBG) Thanks, but think of it as freeware. My gift to the cast bullet fraternity.

[Molly]

WOW! I have had knock down drag out fights with the 308 win neck. Have you actually done this?

Umm. Sorta. I've actually assembled dummy rounds based on the concept, just to prove it out. But my eldest son has swiped my 788, which was the only 308 Win I had. But it's in the back of my mind, and one of these days ....

[Molly]

Hi Bass Ackwards -- I wonder if you could be a relative of mine? (VBG)

> Case neck length isn't the limiter you think. Many people simply don't understand how little lube they can get by with. Or you can design bullets around it like the 311299.

Yes, and there are some other good short-bodied designs. But it's been my experience that the longer bodied designs are a lot more reliable and consistent in performance.

> More importantly than case design to me is throat design.

Agreed: Most shooters don't even give the throat design any thought, but it can play a major role in determining how well your gun will shoot. Personally, I much favor the 30-40 throat design, which is another reason I like the idea of a long necked 308: All you have to do is lengthen the chamber neck with a 30-40 reamer, and bingo, you have an ideal throat for cast bullets.

> Especially if you want the flexibility to shoot soft lead for hunting or if you simply want to avoid the abrasive nature of antimony.

?? antimony? Abrasive?? Harder, yes, but abrasive?? Not that I've ever noticed.

> And of coarse you haven't discovered the cast bullet bore diameter yet either. :grin:

?? not sure what you're tryig to say here. I gave the reasons I preferred .308 caliber in my initial post. What do you think I'm missing?

[Molly]

... The same as would be with the 30-06 case via the 8mm Mauser die, but with the neck cut off (very little) to match that of the 30-30. That one is my idea. ... felix

Of course, that would be a nice combination, but I'd still prefer the 308CB, just for the greater range of cast bullet designs available.

Hmmm. Maybe I should re-name it the 308LN for Long Neck.

[felix]

Yep, the 350 rem mag is exactly a 35 whelen in disguise. The only real difference is in the twist selected. Normally, the maggie is 16 twist, and the official whelen is truly dependent of the guy who put it together. 16 twist is perfect for boolits having typical lube grooves and less than 250 grains. ... felix

[felix]

That's exactly what I named mine, Molly! 8mmMauserLN. ... felix

[felix]

The basis of a long case neck is to have the throat made as short as possible, and have enough boolit in there to allow the boolit to be seated further out as the throat wears. My background is BR stuff, and I have chosen to remain in that thought process throughout my tenure with cast. Right or wrong, depending on purpose. That means the continuous use of destructive high pressure rounds. ... felix

[trk]

I have ALWAYS preferred long neckers. In ANY brand of beer.

[Char-Gar]

The notion of a long neck .308 has cross my mind over the years.

But before I get fired up about it, I remember the case capacity of the .308 and the 30-40 are virtualy identical, and the 30-40 has that wonderful long neck. Why build a Wildcat? I keep an eye peeled for a good P-14 action on which to build a bolt 30-40.

Then I also remember I can keep ten shots into .7MOA with my Remington 700 VS in .308 with RCBS 165 SIL going 1.9K fps (49/WC872). So, just how much handicap is that short .308 neck.

[9.3X62AL]

Great discussion here. I'm fond of the 30-30 WCF for a number of reasons in the context of cast boolits, all of which were mentioned above. The 45-70 is another chambering I like a lot. These are both "natural" cast boolit calibers, and lots of casters have them in their gun safes. The 30-06 has treated me well, too.

The less commonly-used cast calibers call to me also. I have had wonderful luck with the 243 Win in my Rem 788 using the RCBS 95 SP (thanks again, Uncle Ray). Lyman Loverins did almost as well. The 250 Savage has been a fine cast boolit rifle for me, my 1930-made Savage 99 and its 1-14" twist get along well with castings up to 100 grains.

I've driveled on ad nauseum about the 9.3 x 62 since I got it in 2002, so I won't belabor that further--but I do enjoy its fine work with castings.

These are my "rifle favorites" with cast boolits.

[felix]

None, Charles. It is more perception than anything. In some situations, a long neck can hurt things, like when it won't let a boolit center itself into the barrel. Looser fitting boolits within the case show greater accuracy for the most part, but their cartridges are typically too difficult to handle outside of the target range. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

John, I remember you posting boolits with huge lube capacity. Have you changed your mind on this? I for one don't like harder lubes and lube shouldn't cost enough to be much of a consideration with several suppliers now.

More importantly than case design to me is throat design. Your going to have to explain, you have said in past threads that the throat changes rapidly. If so, you would loose your prime dimensions immediately. Especially if you want the flexibility to shoot soft lead for hunting or if you simply want to avoid the abrasive nature of antimony. Hmmm

And of coarse you haven't discovered the cast bullet bore diameter yet either. Only important for the nose diameter.


Now Bob,

Bullets with huge lube capacity? That was a semi wadcutter for a rifle. It was designed that way for less lube in winter and more in the summer, since a semi wadcutter scrapes everything out ahead of it. That was a 2000 fps plus, 45 caliber bullet design. I change lubes from winter lubes to summer also. Always soft. When using olgival designs, you don't need and DON"T WANT as much lube. So no change in my thought process.

My throats lengthen rapidly under pressure with antimony bullets. The ball seat portion doesn't change. My 35 started out with a 210 grainer, went to a 220, then a 250, and now has stabilized so a 255 meets my requirements. All in less than 800 rounds. But a fairly tight ball seat supports my bullets and allows me to run the same velocities as guys with tapered throats that need WDWW to achieve.


Molly,

Antimony is a rock. It posses abrasive qualities. While antimony has been around since the begining of time, many ol timers with big names wouldn't shoot any lead if antimony was present. You can shoot a lead / tin mix forever and only the guy who get's your guns may see any change. But put antimony under pressure and it will wear a throat faster than copper.

And the 35 bore was the discovery you needed to make. :grin:

[Nueces]

Molly, I think yours is a cool idea. My own thoughts have run toward the 300 Savage case, just because I have a 722 so chambered. My plan has been to make cases from 308s and trim to max length allowed by the factory chamber, yielding a small gain.

More could be gained by your idea of lengthening the chamber neck portion, a nice option. The 300 sharp shoulder would provide increased neck length in a 308-length case. I don't have any reamers to measure, but I checked the cartridge drawings in Wolfe's 'The Illustated Reference of Cartridge Dimensions.' The 308 neck is shown as a straight 0.343 in diameter, while the 30-40 neck tapers from 0.339 at the shoulder to 0.338 at the mouth. I found no other 30 case with a neck as large as the 308 (beside the 308 x 1 1/2). The 300 neck tapers from 0.3405 to 0.339.

Looks like a custom reamer would be necessary to lengthen either neck. If I were to go this way, I'd open my 300 neck up to 308 size, since that's where the cases would come from, and this would cut down on neck turning. The shoulder of a 308 reamer is too large for use in a 300 chamber. :(

Might go halfies with you on the reamer. :drinks:

Mark

ps - We need a smilie that connotes blue-sky wool-gathering like this

[leftiye]

Nueces and Molly, You might consider buying the correct sized decimal chucking reamer from MSC. A lot cheaper, and almost no waiting time.

If you want a pilot then grind off the flutes at the front and fit a bore dia. O.D. sleeve over the front of the shaft. Actually, this is probably unnecessary, as the reamer should self center quite well while cutting if you only take about ten thou. at a time. You can taper it if desired by hand if it's only a thou., and you'll have to reconstruct/reshape the front cutting edgesif you make the pilot.

If you were to use a throating reamer first, and remove the rifling as far as you wanted to extend the neck, then the aforementioned reamer should cut smoothly (not catch on the rifling), and remove the excess throat.

What's your idea as to how tight/loose a chambers neck portion should be on the case?

[drinks]

Molly;
You have overlooked the .303 Savage, a lot longer neck than the .308 or .30-30, slightly more case capacity than the .30-30 and with a rim, which the .308 is missing.
Easily made from.220 Swift brass and the fibbing varmits at Gaff & Son keep promising to have some new brass at affordable prices, not the $1.50 a case of the sorry Bretram brass.

[Obsolete]

Well on paper the 348 Win looks promising and does have some history of being necked up to 40 and 45 cal.I have zero expirence with the 348 Win.... Anyone else using it with cast boolits ?

[Marlin Junky]

Two cartridges that I would like to see on a nice short action would be the .30 and .32 Remington. Has anyone had a chance to play with the .338 Federal yet?

MJ

[Molly]

Bass,

> My throats lengthen rapidly under pressure with antimony bullets.
> Antimony is a rock. It posses abrasive qualities. While antimony has been around since the begining of time, many ol timers with big names wouldn't shoot any lead if antimony was present. ... antimony under pressure and it will wear a throat faster than copper.

Ummm... Well, this isn't an area in which I have a great deal of personal experience, but I'm under the impression that those who HAVE studied the question generally attribute throat erosion to tempeatre effects: I've had it explained that the exceedingly high temperature of high pressure loads actually liquifies (melts) a micro-thin layer of the steel surface ofthe bore. As soon as the bullet has progressed down the barrel, the gas expansion cools the gas to the point that the remainder of the bore isn't liquified. That's what limits errosion to the throat, instead of the entire bore. Once the gas temperature has dropped, the micro-thin liquified steel is instantly quenched by the rest of the metal in the barrel, which is much cooler. But this only sets up the real problem: The bore surface is now much harder than the rest of the barrel metal, as is typical of quenched steel. When the next shot is fired, the same pressure that pushes the bullet down the barrel also causes the barrel to expand very, very slightly, much like a balloon expands under pressure. The brittle layer cracks instead of expanding. These cracks continue to grow and embrittle with each continued shot, until they are large enough to be actually broken off by the bullet's passage. This seems to be consistent with the fact that it's the high velocity rounds (220 Swift, etc) generally have a lot more problem with erosion than lower pressure (which equates to lower temperature) rounds like the 30-30, even though they use the same metal in their jacketed bullets.

You are the first person I've encountered who attributes erosion to the bullet itself. Interesting. Could you explain why a copper (or antimony alloy) bullet doesn't wear the entire bore uniformly?

Oh, and antimony is NOT a rock. It's a metal. More precisely, in cast bullet alloys, it's generally present in the form of Sb-SN, an intermetallic alloy. And it's a great deal softer than the typcal copper jacket. Why would it be more abrasive?

You are right that a few of the old timers refused to use antimonial alloys, but the accounts I've read of those days didn't complain about abrasion, they complained about the lack of accuracy of antimonial alloys. Now we can understand that this was probably because the antimony hardened the lead, and their bullets wouldn't upset uniformly and consistently like lead-tim alloys.

> And the 35 bore was the discovery you needed to make.

Ahh, no. If you re-read my original post, I discounted the larger bores because they are too destructive on small game. I HAVE played with 35 bore rifles a good deal, and know this to my own satisfaction.

[Molly]

Mark

> More could be gained by your idea of lengthening the chamber neck portion, a nice option. The 300 sharp shoulder would provide increased neck length in a 308-length case. I don't have any reamers to measure, but I checked the cartridge drawings in Wolfe's 'The Illustated Reference of Cartridge Dimensions.' The 308 neck is shown as a straight 0.343 in diameter, while the 30-40 neck tapers from 0.339 at the shoulder to 0.338 at the mouth. I found no other 30 case with a neck as large as the 308 (beside the 308 x 1 1/2). The 300 neck tapers from 0.3405 to 0.339.

> Looks like a custom reamer would be necessary to lengthen either neck.

Umm. yes, in theory you're right. But take it from a former gunsmith, in the real world, there are manufacturing tolerances to deal with in the cases, as well as in the chambers themselves. (That's why there are "go"-"no go" guages.) The 30-40 Krag was a 30 caliber, right? That's SUPPOSED to be a .300 bore and a .308 groove diameter. But the smallest Krag bore I ever measured went 0.310". Most were 0.311 - 0.312, and I've seen them go 0.314! Trust me, a little fine sandpaper on a dowel will sometimes do wonders in chamber work.

[Molly]

> You might consider buying the correct sized decimal chucking reamer from MSC. A lot cheaper, and almost no waiting time.

Excellent thought! Sometimes I'm too close to the woods to see the trees!

> What's your idea as to how tight/loose a chambers neck portion should be on the case?

Despite a great deal of delight in theories, I'm not a purist, I'm a pragmatic. I've never worked with a "tight chamber" to any extent. From what I've read, most of those who have tried them found themselves rechambering in pretty short order.

That said, when (not if) I do this I expect to make a chamber cast, measure the neck diameter of the rifle in question, and try to duplicate that for the throat extension. If I can find a 30-40 reamer to do the job, all the better.

[Molly]

Hi Drinks,

> You have overlooked the .303 Savage, a lot longer neck than the .308 or .30-30, slightly more case capacity than the .30-30 and with a rim, which the .308 is missing.

Ah, not so. I've used the 303 Savage a fair bit, and got good results with it. But I don't regard the rim as an advantage, because bolt action rifles (which I strongly favor) generally don't feed well with them. BTW, you can make servicable ammo for it with 30-30 brass. Worked for me back when, though I'd probably build up the base a trifle with half an inch of telescoping tubing if I were to do it today.

[Frank46]

OK, here goes. Some schutzen shooters at one time played around with the lowly 32-20 case. They found that they could launch saeco's 175gr tapered benchrest bullet at respectible velocities while shooting at those ring targets. Thus you would need to not neck down your 8mm case to fit a 308 chamber. But your idea has much going for it. You get to keep all or most of the lubricated portion of the bullet inside the case. That in itself is a worthwhile goal. In shooting the 7x62x54 russian case with lyman's 314299 that is an impossibility. Especially if you seat out far enough to get yourbullets out to engage the rifling. Course since they are so long they don't readily feed from the magazine. I usually let them lay partially in the mag so the bolt can do the final seating. Can't do anything about that. Very good idea. Frank

[PPpastordon]

"And the 35 bore was the discovery you needed to make."

While it is true that a .35 might do more damage on small game, at low velocity it is still quite satisfactory for many. Some even use larger calibers. I have a friend who commonly uses his .45 Colt for small game. He uses slow, round nose bullets. He says, as Elmer Keith used to say, "You can eat right up to the bullet hole." He has also commented that these loads are easy to tell from his usual loads.
There are still .35 caliber fans out there and a long neck .358 Winchester can be as easily made as the long neck .308. While the long neck can cover more boolit, it therefore potentially covers more (or all) of the lube. Besides; some people simply like longer necks.
I like cases with long necks - and I am a .35 fan. Years ago I had a long necked .35 rifle on the .30-30 opened to .35 caliber. However, I personally like straight sided rounds that also fit in a revolver. The .357 Mag., DW, and Max are all quite good for me. The DW fits nice on Ruger SA's.

Molly, I know that doesn't help you a bit. But it might help the .35 fans out there.

[Molly]

Hi Frank,

> ... Some schutzen shooters at one time played around with the lowly 32-20 case. They found that they could launch saeco's 175gr tapered benchrest bullet at respectible velocities while shooting at those ring targets.

That approach has also been seen in the CBA. I had the remarkable experience of watching a fellow competitor drop ten consecutives into a 200 yard target, any one of which would have hit my thumbnail. And he was using something quite close to that. And I dearly love the 32-20: I have a couple of Martini Cadets so chambered - with modern barrel liners - and an almost new S&W M&P revolver for it. But as neat a little round as it is, I don't feel comfortable deer hunting with it. No doubt it will kill deer, but then so would a .22 LR - and I'm not going that route either. The deer deserve greater respect.

> ... But your idea has much going for it. You get to keep all or most of the lubricated portion of the bullet inside the case. That in itself is a worthwhile goal. In shooting the 7x62x54 russian case with lyman's 314299 that is an impossibility. Especially if you seat out far enough to get your bullets out to engage the rifling.

Exactly right. And that's why the 7.62x54R didn't make the short list either.

[Molly]

Hi PPpastordon;

> While it is true that a .35 might do more damage on small game, at low velocity it is still quite satisfactory for many. Some even use larger calibers.

Well, all I can say is that I remember an article on squib loads of years ago. (Maybe Gun digest) The author gave some really good tips, but the one that has stuck with me was his development of squib loads for a 45-70. I don't recall the details, but I do recall his description of the results. It went something to the effect of "I really thought I had something. And when I shot the first squirrel with it, I DID have something. I had a two-piece squirrel." (BG)

Seriously, the larger calibers have some major drawbacks for small game: Unless loaded VERY lightly, they are still quite destructive. And when loaded THAT lightly, they have trajectories that are not too dissimilar to that of a safe dropped off of the roof.

> There are still .35 caliber fans out there and a long neck .358 Winchester can be as easily made as the long neck .308. ... I like cases with long necks - and I am a .35 fan. Years ago I had a long necked .35 rifle on the .30-30 opened to .35 caliber.

I'm a fan of the 35 bore too. I've owned several of them, including the 358 Win, and I've seriously considered buying the 35.30-30. I've also looked longingly at the 35 Whelan. But they're a bit too specialized for me. I find that - excellent though they are - the 30 bore is a better all-around choice for my needs.

[Bass Ackward]

Molly,

I have many examples. What you describe with cracking is high pressure wear. You will NEVER see that even with high pressure cast as it is continually worn away. Tubbs made his throat maintainance system to remove that hard layer every so often.

What lead does is polish very well. Where powder roughs up the bore surface, lead will smooth it. The more antimony, the less time. I have an 06 in Remington stainless, a 35 Whelen in Shilean chrome molly, and a Krieger 458X2 that all have throat wear out to the point where the powder impact or heat or what ever has roughed up the bore.

The two bottle neck examples NEVER have been run over 40,000 psi and never heated up. The 458X2 has seen 70,000 psi. Benchrest cast rifles will have throat wear to the point of barrel replacement in 1000 rounds while still having tool marks in the bore. Why so much slower wear than my results? They are shooting hard lead. I shoot soft and thus the pressure limit. Soft lead deforms more under pressure and thus opens throats faster.

If I shoot fast powders for cast velocities, I shoot rock hard. When I need to go fast for hunting, I go soft. I use magnum rifle primers for fast loads to burn the powder in the case and I use pistol pistol primers for the high velocity, slow powder stuff. Sorta Bass Ackward from conventional thought. I have been told that Freedom Arms warns about shooting soft lead causing increased forcing cone wear because of increased deformation of the base, but I have not found that yet.

Dan at Mountain molds took his chrome molly 30-06 Remington from .311 to .318 in less than 1000 high pressure rounds. The data is included in all of his post relating to high pressure testing he was conducting. He makes custom molds at Mountain Molds.

My antimony comes in little rock shapes before blended. It will engrave steel when you test it just like a diamond.

[drinks]

Molly;
Yes, I have made .303 cases by cutting .3" off a .40 S&W case and pressing it over a .30-30 case and even simpler, using the SS trim tape from the autoparts and cutting .3" wide strips and wrapping the case with it until it is .440" just at the body/head junction.

[felix]

Molly, the BassAckward(BA) words are true. Antimony is your friend when you have a new gun because it will smooth out the barrel to make for mo'betta' cast rounds. Typically, the abrasiveness will be minimized when the amount of tin surrounds all of the antimony, which is assumed to be when they are equal in proportion by volume, by weight, or maybe its on a molecular basis. The so called 90-5-5, Lyman #2, is supposed to be this-a-way. Antimony crystals are sharp, tin crystals are smooth in comparision. So, luckily tin will surround antimony at the expense of pushing actual lead out of the way at the points of junction. ... felix

Yes, we are shooting rocks. It just so happens the rocks we shoot are mostly metallic in nature. The familiar term of rock is nothing than an alloy of a bunch of materials, where only some constitutents are metallic in nature. In fact, the aluminum folks have been raising the silicon content high enough to allow the minimization of expansion of aluminum in a engine, so the tolerances can be made tighter between piston and bore. Engines that can last 200K miles versus 50K with the same compression/gasoline ratios. ... felix

[Molly]

Felix, BassAckward,

> Antimony is your friend when you have a new gun because it will smooth out the barrel to make for mo'betta' cast rounds. ... Antimony crystals are sharp, tin crystals are smooth in comparision.

You know, I’ve long felt that the best friend I have is someone who teaches me something new. And while I have absolutely no reason to think you guys are reporting exactly what you’ve observed, your explanation of it was so new to me, and you were so sure of it that I decided to do a bit of research; Here’s what I found.

From: environmentalchemistry.com
Hardness Scale (Sb) (Fe)
Brinell: (MN m-2 ) 294 490
Mohs: 3 4

Other sources gave similar values, though they were not all in exact agreement. For example, Sb was quoted with hardness up to 3.3 Mohs, and Fe up to 4.5 Mohs.

If you are not familiar with Mohs hardness, it is a scratch test, while Brinell is a penetration test. They don’t measure quite the same things, but as you can see, they’re close to one another proportionally. The thing about the Mohs test is that it’s logarithmic. Each level is TEN TIMES as hard as the level below it. So iron alone is roughly ten times as hard as antimony. And that’s just soft, unalloyed elemental iron. I’d expect modern steel alloys to have an even greater margin of hardness over antimony.

So it looks like what you are telling me seems like saying that you’ve worn hard steel away with a soft abrasive. I suppose that’s possible, but I’d tend to suspect that your soft material has picked up some pretty hard grit somewhere. If you’ve scratched a steel surface with antimony, I believe I’d suspect some sort of contamination in your antimony.

The only other explanation that occurs to me is that what you are seeing as a scratch mark on the steel is actually a smear of antimony left behind, much like chalk will leave a smear of dust on a blackboard. In either case, you’d be looking at fresh white metal, and it would be easy to do. Is this possible?

Hope you find this interesting.

[felix]

Yes, Molly, very possible. The scales you are referring to are those which represent things in the purest sense. In our situation we are blasting stuff with stuff in a strange environment. We can only go on what happens, and that would be in general anyway. Fact? Well, it has to happen all of the time to be considered a true fact. Not enough of us shoot cast at 40K cup/psi or above consistently enough to say too much about fact. But the condom (jacketed) BR guys don't care about cost of barrels; the cost of traveling back and forth to ranges far exceeds the cost of 4 barrels per year. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

So what have we got so far?...

A .30 to .35 boolit fired from a case that holds enough powder in the 4198 to H380 burning range (for example) to launch up to 2400 fps at a maximum of 40K PSI? What sectional density are we looking at for target/deer hunting?... about .250?

Personally, I've never owned a .338 rifle and I think it's got a lot to do with lack of gascheck solutions. So we have the .30-.32 and the .35 calibers as candidates, right? Personally, I don't feel .35 is too big for small game if it can be loaded to 1700 fps successfully.

MJ

[Willbird]

I think the perfect case would be a 6br case but made longer so that it had exactly 30-30 capacity. This case would have lots of OTHER uses as well, hunter BR being one use. Of course it should be made by Lapua and Norma. With a small primer pocket and a small flash hole, each cartridge case should be a perfect jewel like the Lapua 6br brass is.

Bill

[Molly]

... Personally, I don't feel .35 is too big for small game if it can be loaded to 1700 fps successfully. MJ

Oh, for the lova ... well, the invitation WAS for each of us to espouse our preferences ... but as much as I admired Elmer Keith, I really don't feel the need of a 35 Remington for squirrels. Some folks think it's a bit much for deer. And that's exactly what you have there: A 35 caliber bullet at 1700 fps.

I hope you won't be offended if I surmise that you haven't shot very many squirrels with the .35 Rem. - or at least haven't eaten many so obtained.

[45 2.1]

Hahahaha, gee I hunted squirrels for years with a couple of 4570s. But with nice slow collarbutton loads out of a trapdoor and a 300 gr. 457191 at 1000 fps out of a 1895. The collar button was a head or ribcage number and the 300 grainer was to either take off the head or to bark the squirrel. Easier that way than with a shotgun.

[cbrick]

More importantly than case design to me is throat design.

Absolutely. Cast bullets are more easliy damaged than those ugly brown bullets. A sloppy (or tapered) throat is a terrible thing.


Especially if you want the flexibility to shoot soft lead for hunting or if you simply want to avoid the abrasive nature of antimony.

Abrasive nature of antimony ? ? ? Tens of thousands of cast bullets through several bores for many years and every single one of those bullets had antimony in them and not a hint of abrasive bullets. Dennis Marshall writing for the NRA made essentially the same statement. A common "old Wives Tale" among the cast bullet crowd is that antimony bullets are abrasive . . . they aren't as abrasive as J-bullets.

But back to the topic of this thread, I think I'll give this 308CB brass a try. I love tinkering with new stuff and this sounds very interesting.

Rick

[felix]

Most folks don't shoot boolits in the pedal-to-the-metal style. If they did they would find out the loads would be no different than the condom loads in terms of throat erosion. For some reason, copper bullets tends to adhear more readily to a smooth surface than does antimony laden boolits with sufficient tin to cover. ... felix

[Molly]

... Abrasive nature of antimony ? ? ? Tens of thousands of cast bullets through several bores for many years and every single one of those bullets had antimony in them and not a hint of abrasive bullets.

... I think I'll give this 308CB brass a try. I love tinkering with new stuff and this sounds very interesting.
Rick

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the support. And Dennis Marshal is a sharp trooper indeed when it comes to metalurgy.

But I need to remind you that the 308CB (cast bullet) was renamed (somewhere above) as the 308LN (Long Neck). Reasoning was that while I think it's a neat adaptation for cast bullets, there is absolutely no reason that jacketed bullets couldn't be loaded in it as well, should the need / desire arise.

The only limitation that occurs to me is that the resulting round MIGHT not feed properly from a short actioned rifle. Depending on the CB weight / length you like, it could be too long to function through the magazine.

I don't consider that particularly probable, but it might be a good idea to assemble a few dummy rounds to check mechanical functioning BEFORE you run a Krag reamer down the throat of your 308 Rifle. It's a whole lot easier to take some metal out later than it is to put it back in later. (BG)

Please get back to us with a report!

[Molly]

Hahahaha, gee I hunted squirrels for years with a couple of 4570s. But with nice slow collarbutton loads out of a trapdoor and a 300 gr. 457191 at 1000 fps out of a 1895. The collar button was a head or ribcage number and the 300 grainer was to either take off the head or to bark the squirrel. Easier that way than with a shotgun.

Well, yeah, but you're missing the real advantage of going straight to factory 458 Win for squirrels. It's just as effective for headshots, and it allows you to bark them from the other side of the whole dang tree! Teaches them little buggers not to sneak around the tree all the durn time! (VBG)

[cbrick]

Hi Rick, But I need to remind you that the 308CB (cast bullet) was renamed (somewhere above) as the 308LN (Long Neck).

I read that but I like 308CB better.


there is absolutely no reason that jacketed bullets couldn't be loaded in it as well, should the need / desire arise.

What a terrible thing to say! Besides, do they still make those ugly brown bullets?


The only limitation that occurs to me is that the resulting round MIGHT not feed properly from a short actioned rifle. Depending on the CB weight / length you like, it could be too long to function through the magazine. Please get back to us with a report!

Not a problem, my 308 is a single shot break open action :-D. I did a chamber cast on it a while back and I will never need to trim brass for that rifle. The throat is good, there isn't excessive freebore but the part of the chamber cut for the case neck is pretty long, much longer than 308 neck length, I'll have to get some brass and see how things fit.

Rick

[Marlin Junky]

Oh, for the lova ... well, the invitation WAS for each of us to espouse our preferences ... but as much as I admired Elmer Keith, I really don't feel the need of a 35 Remington for squirrels. Some folks think it's a bit much for deer. And that's exactly what you have there: A 35 caliber bullet at 1700 fps.

I hope you won't be offended if I surmise that you haven't shot very many squirrels with the .35 Rem. - or at least haven't eaten many so obtained.

Molly,

I just said .35, not .35 Remington. I could have meant .357 Magnum, .357 SuperMag (Maximum), 35-30, .35 Remington or even the .358 loaded with a 158 to 180 grain SWC at 1700 fps. All of which would be a sensible choice for hunting collared peccary and small deer. I don't know what kind of damage one would do to a tree squirrel by switching to a round nose boolit at 1500 fps but I never mentioned anything about shooting squirrels with a .35. The only squirrels I've ever shot were those pesky lil' vermin that burrow under and my rifle of choice back then was a super accurate .270 with Sierra HP's. Needless to say those squirrels were used to feed the ants. Personally, if I were going to shoot gray squirrels out of trees, I'd probably use a 22RF. My personal favorite CB rifle would be a super accurate fun to shoot gun that would reliably take all species of edible game (sans those species that can be taken with a 22RF or even an air rifle!) in the lower 48. I don't know how one would accomplish all that perfectly, but I think the .358 Winchester may be a pretty good compromise and all I want to shoot from it is WW metal perhaps blended with a little solder.

MJ

P.S. Earlier I mentioned the .32 Remington in a bolt action and I still think that would be a good one with a 12" twist but I'd want to keep shots at big hoofed game under 200 yards.

[Molly]

... Not a problem, my 308 is a single shot break open action :-D. Rick

Hey, go for it man!

[Molly]

> I just said .35, not .35 Remington. I could have meant .357 Magnum, .357 SuperMag (Maximum), 35-30, .35 Remington or even the .358 loaded with a 158 to 180 grain SWC at 1700 fps. All of which would be a sensible choice for hunting collared peccary and small deer. I don't know what kind of damage one would do to a tree squirrel by switching to a round nose boolit at 1500 fps but I never mentioned anything about shooting squirrels with a .35.

I believe I owe you an apology. Indeed you did not, but that was the context of MY idea of an ideal cartridge: One that would work well in bolt actions, one that had a good selection of mold designs, decent case capacity and a long neck to cover kube grooves. AND one that could be loaded (suitably) for both small gae and deer. That's why I read more in your post than you put there. Sorry.

> Earlier I mentioned the .32 Remington in a bolt action and I still think that would be a good one with a 12" twist but I'd want to keep shots at big hoofed game under 200 yards.

Believe it or not, I actually considered the .30 & the .32 Remington as candidates for ideal cast bullet rounds. And yes, they'd make darn fine guns for my purposes. But I just couldn't see making a new rifle that is so difficult to find reloadable brass for. The range limitation would not be a problem for me: My deer have all been taken between about five FEET to about 50 yards. Come to think of it, all my small game is as well.

[Marlin Junky]

Believe it or not, I actually considered the .30 & the .32 Remington as candidates for ideal cast bullet rounds. And yes, they'd make darn fine guns for my purposes. But I just couldn't see making a new rifle that is so difficult to find reloadable brass for. The range limitation would not be a problem for me: My deer have all been taken between about five FEET to about 50 yards. Come to think of it, all my small game is as well.

Molly,

Wouldn't turning the rims on 32Spl brass be a breeze on a lil' table top lathe?

The short neck thing used to bother me too; however, if one is in the habit of designing boolit molds to compliment specific chambers/barrels, then properly fitted bore riding designs with one grease groove may preclude the need for covering multiple grooves with long necks. Also, it has been my experience that the 30-30 with its long flimsy neck is prone to run-out unless the neck tension during boolit seating is backed off by utilizing an expander plug, button or mandrel that'll yield a neck ID no less than about 2 or 3 thousandths under boolit diameter. This may be a non-issue with a thicker/stronger long-neck case design.

Nevertheless, not having much of a desire to muck around with custom reloading dies (at least for now) I've decide to purchase a Ruger Hawkeye in .358 unless someone out there can show me proof that .338 gaschecks are flowing like wine somewhere. In that case, the .338 Federal may need to be added to my list.

MJ

[Frank46]

Molly, one other thought about long case necks that I did not see mentioned. Here goes, we all know .243 winchester is hard on barrel throats because of the short neck. It lets the explosive and erosive powder gasses do their dirty work sooner on the exposed metal. However other rounds like the 6mm remington with its longer neck funnels its gasses further into the bore by virtue of its longer neck. So with your longer case necks this may be an additional benefit. I think that if you would chamber two rifles one with a 308 long neck and the other standard neck the throat on the long neck would last longer. Althouth this may depend on the selection of barrel steel. Stainless versus chrome moly. Something to think about. Frank

[Bass Ackward]

Molly,

I just went in and set my barrel back on my .223 and rechambered because of my imagination where the throat was moving after only 200 rounds. My Howa doesn't move because it is a military throat. My guns have stabilized now. If it was my lead or mix was a problem, the problem would continue.

If you weren't adverse to exposed lube grooves, this wouldn't really be a problem because you just seat on out. But if you are going to all the effort to lengthen your case design and live with the extra steps, you are probably going to be cutting a shorter throat than you otherwise would because your bullet weight will be inside the case. The shorter and tighter the throat, the farther the movement.

I hope you do this. It will be interesting to see what happens. :grin:

[Bret4207]

I had a nice 5 paragraph post on my thoughts, but the computer shut down and I lost it.

The short story. How about the 7x57?

[Phil]

Matter of fact Tpr Bret, I'm working on just such a project as that as we speak! All to use the infamous Saeco one of four ever built (can't remember the number of it just now) 7mm mold. Cbrick knows the number. Will let you know how it works. I should have it finished by the time shooting weather gets here.

Cheers,

Phil

[Molly]

Wouldn't turning the rims on 32Spl brass be a breeze on a lil' table top lathe?MJ

Yes, but I've been down the road of case forming, and hit purt' near every pothole in it. I've actually reworked 30-06 brass to function in a 577-450. Successfully. I've lengthened cases, I've swaged cases, I've swaged rims. I've turned necks and trimmed necks. I've shimmed base diameters and I've turned them down. I've added rims, I've thickend rims, I've thinned rims.

And do you know what? I'm tired of it. Mebby I'm just getting old, but now it just isn't as much fun as it used to be. Now I just want to get'er done with the least effort and trouble. Making the 308LN case doesn't take any thing but resizing, which I'd be doing anyhow.

[felix]

Molly, it's all about case capacity anyway, so you are not loosing a thing by thinking the way you are today. ... felix

[Molly]

... rounds like the 6mm remington with its longer neck funnels its gasses further into the bore by virtue of its longer neck. So with your longer case necks this may be an additional benefit. ... Although this may depend on the selection of barrel steel. ... Something to think about. Frank

Well Frank, you may have a theoretical point there, but I suspect the slight advantage could be more than equaled if I simply keep most of my loads moderate, so there isn't a throat erosion problem to begin with.

Years ago, when I began reloading, I suffered from the delusion that my high pressure mini-bombs (yeah, I've been down that road too.)were "improvements" over factory ammo. But I slowly came to realize that any slight advantage I gained in power was far outweighed by the extra stress on my guns, and the decreased margin of safety.

I've had a few guns come apart - violently - when I was using them, and I have the scars to prove it. Not the fault of the guns, it was the nut on the trigger. The experience is brief, but has an extraordinarily high educational value. I can honestly claim to have gunpowder in my blood, but I don't recommend it.

Max loads uses the same logic that might lead you to try to install a lawn mower engine in your pickup, and run it screaming all the time. Gonna be rough on the engine. Max mechanical stress equals minimum life of the mechanical device.

I eventually learned that if I need more power, I just need a larger cartridge. Loads that operate with moderate pressures are more than satisfactory for my purposes, and erosion is not a problem.

[Molly]

The short story. How about the 7x57?

Not a bad choice at all! It's a classic because it simply does its job, and does it well without any unnecessary fuss and feathers. With a better selection of cast bullets, I'd give it serious consideration.

[MT Gianni]

I've lately thought the wildcat that should have been was the 30x57. You have the opportunity as you are reaming anyway to see how much neck you will need and increase powder capacity so that nothing is wasted. Call it 308 long nose improved or what ever. Gianni

[cbrick]

the infamous Saeco one of four ever built (can't remember the number of it just now) 7mm mold. Cbrick knows the number. Phil

That would be SAECO # 072

[Marlin Junky]

.30x57mm? Good grief... only 6mm to go and we're back in 1906 with a .388" Long-Neck.

How many more grease grooves is your .30 wildcat going to cover opposed to a .308 and how much lube (in terms of grains) do you need to accomplish your velocity/accuracy goals? I'm not a big time BR guy but I've heard there's an NEI design kicking around in .30 with one lube groove that has won a championship or two. I think it goes by the designation of #61 or #61A. It would be interesting to know what cartridge it was fired from when it won the CBA match(es). Does anyone have that load info?

MJ

[uscra112]

So, OK, what about the Schuetzen guys who didn't require any neck at all? .32-40 and .38-55 worked real well for them. And Harry Pope had his .33-40. Need for neck is to protect the boolit when hunting, IMHO. If you're benchresting you can manage any kind of neck you want. Hunting you need a round that isn't likely to get knocked out of kilter, loaded with grit, and doesn't need so much neck tension that it distorts the boolit base. A long neck will hold a boolit to the desired OAL with minimum tension. Me, I'm pretty happy with my .35 REM when shooting cast, whether it's 157 grain pistol boolits at subsonic velocity, or 200 grainers at 1975fps.

[Phil]

That would be SAECO # 072


What do you suppose the odds are that of four molds made, two show up on this forum?

Cheers,

Phil

[Bigjohn]

Well, it's time for me to hop in with my two cents worth.

I am in agreement with 'Molly' on some aspects of this discussion; in that I believe in a case with a capacity more suitable to the powder charges used to "drive" the boolit towards the target and importantly; all the grease grooves covered by the neck of the case.

The first of these issues; case capacity, would have people discussing the matter until 'well after the cows came home'. With varibles such as, which powder, what charge etc., it leaves itself open to much interpretation. And I don't have the answer. Fast burning powder charges require less space than slower burning powder charges. Do you restrict yourself to one or the other powders?

On the issue of lube, again there are many good boolit designs which only have one lube groove and also some designs which actually have lube grooves on the bore riding section (nose). Do you restrict yourself to one type of boolit to suit the length your case neck? e.g. Short necks for the single lube groove designs, to boolit noses seated level with the case mouth (as per the MN Revolver)?

Now, 'Molly', if I understand your quest correctly, you aim to use a standard cartridge (for example .308" Winchester) and produce by various methods cases with longer necks and only alter the chamber of your rifle by lengthing the neck area of the chamber. Hopefully, this would allow you to still use standard ammo with 'J' word bullets without any loss of accuracy. This in it's self IMO raises some issues regarding the effects it will have and I cannot answer it.

And you want this to work in a bolt action rifle, hence your prefence for a rimless case. IMO you should not limit your research to rimless cases as there are many good bolt rifles which feed reliably with rimmed cases; LEE ENFIELD No1 MkIII*; is one.

IMHO, if I was going to do something like this to a rifle, it would be regulated to shooting cast in the special cases only. It would be a 'NO COPPER' area totally.
Unfortunately, down here it would also ruin any resale value of the rifle.

That is one cents worth out of the way. :-D

Now for the other one cents worth.

In the "Art of Bullet Casting" by WOLFE Publishing; on pages 174 to 178 is an article by Carl Johnson; called Cast Bullet Cartridge.

In the article, he discusses a project he did to find a special case to "brings groups below the half-inch mark."

He designed a case based on the .30/30 Win. (.30 WCF) to shoot the 31141UHP and 311291UHP boolits.

He turned the rim diam down to .473" so the case would function with a .308" Win. bolt/extractor he had available. OAL Case length is 1.640"; neck length is .500" long; and neck diam. is .335".

The powders used in his tests were RL-7 and 4198 and two barrel twist rates of 1 in 10" and 1 in 15". I realise you may not have the resources Carl Johnson had and be working within a limited budget; I wish you well with your experiments and hope you post your results, here.

If you have the oportunity to read this article, I would suggest you do, and I can post you a print if you wish.

Now I will close this by stating; I post this to encourage ongoing discussion not to put anyone down and I hope it has added to this discussion and encourages further. I would dearly like to make a rifle souly for the purpose of shoot my cast boolits even tho I already have several on standard cartridges which do very well.

John.

[Molly]

Hi John,

Nice post. I appreciate the input.

> I am in agreement with 'Molly' on some aspects of this discussion; in that I believe in a case with a capacity more suitable to the powder charges used to "drive" the boolit towards the target and importantly; all the grease grooves covered by the neck of the case.

That's pretty much my goal, if you add the caveats of minimal cost, minimal effect on the value of the rifle, and simplicity / ease of use.

> case capacity, ... would have people discussing the matter until 'well after the cows came home'. ... Do you restrict yourself to one or the other powders?

No. I want the versitility to use slower powders in high power deer loads, and faster pistol powders in small game loads.

> Do you restrict yourself to one type of boolit to suit the length your case neck?

No again. Generally speaking, I want to use heavy bullets for deer, and lightweight bullets for small game.

> Now, 'Molly', if I understand your quest correctly, you aim to use a standard cartridge (for example .308" Winchester) and produce by various methods cases with longer necks and only alter the chamber of your rifle by lengthing the neck area of the chamber.

That's a pretty fair summary.

> Hopefully, this would allow you to still use standard ammo with 'J' word bullets without any loss of accuracy.

Ummm. No, you've missed this one very slightly. I haven't used jacketed bullets in decades. But I thought it would be nice if the altered rifle was still safe to use with factory ammo, should I ever need to sell it.

> And you want this to work in a bolt action rifle, hence your prefence for a rimless case. IMO you should not limit your research to rimless cases as there are many good bolt rifles which feed reliably with rimmed cases; LEE ENFIELD No1 MkIII*; is one.

While I have a lot of respect for them as battle rifles, I consider your choice rather marginal as the basis for a custom target rifle: The oversized chambers may be great for tolerating dirty ammo under battle conditions, but I reload my cases: The chambers tend to weaken cases by over-expansion. I'm not particularly fond of the cock-on-closing feature, and find the esthetics of the rifle - while irrelevant in a battle - less appealing than others. Yes, all these can be corrected by sufficient investment of time, trouble and money, but why bother? With the approach I've selected, I can use any off-the-shelf rifle that appeals to me, and modify it at extremely low cost.

> In the "Art of Bullet Casting" by WOLFE Publishing; on pages 174 to 178 is an article by Carl Johnson; called Cast Bullet Cartridge. ... If you have the oportunity to read this article, I would suggest you do, and I can post you a print if you wish.

Yes, I've read the article with much interest. But again, he goes to a lot of trouble and expense (forming cases, rebarreling, custom reamers, etc.) that I'd like to avoid. I don't need half MOA groups for squirrels or deer. Shoot, I could probably do just fine in either area with 3 to 4 MOA. That's 1 1/2 to 2 inches at 50 yards, which will cause me to miss very few of either. Granted, I would never accept that level of accuracy, but neither do I need to win any benchrest competitions either.

Years ago, I went down the road of excessive detail orientation. I turned necks, weighed cases, bullets and charges to a gnat's hair. For match shooters, that's fine, and it's a fascinating field. But the advantages gained by all that trouble seldom mainfested themselves on the target, because they were lost in the inherent limitations of factory tolerances in my rifles. And as I came to realize that they were not necessary for my needs, I've tended to let them fall by the wayside.

> I post this to encourage ongoing discussion not to put anyone down and I hope it has added to this discussion and encourages further.

Well, of course! That's the whole reason for the thread, and thank you for observing the spirit intended.

[deadguy]

I have found, for moderate loads, the 7.62x39 works great. The case capacity is just right for moderate to max cast boolit loads, without leaving tons of empty space inside the case, meaning there is no need for fillers. Also, another favorite of mine for cast boolits is the .357 magnum.

[45 2.1]

How about the 30/357?

[Nrut]

How about the 30/357?
In a rechambered, lifter modified Browning model 53...:drinks:
Maybe someday...[smilie=1:

[cbrick]

What do you suppose the odds are that of four molds made, two show up on this forum? Cheers, Phil

Well, the mould is for pouring the shiny goddess and this forum is for those so addicted so . . . .

I wonder where the other two are? My smith knows the folks that ordered these moulds, I should see him next week at a match, I'll ask if he knows.

Rick

[Frank46]

Someone made the comment about 30-30 thin necks. Try making 30-30 cases out of 375 winchester cases. You may or may not have to turn the case necks if shooting fat bullets. I had a few used 375 cases and with a 30-30 trim die it was no problem to convert the 375 win cases to 30-30. Since the 375 operates at much higher pressures than the good old 30-30, you have the advantage of much stronger brass. Just a suggestion.
I read that article by Carl Johnson, he even went so far as to make up a special scope mount which acted as a stiffener for the 1917 enfield actions I believe he was using at the time. I would tend to think that because of the large diameter of the bbl shank on the 1917 bbl that this would be a no-problem issue. But then again what do I know. His results though were good. Frank

[Little Joe]

Its hard to beat the 44 mag or the 444 Marlin for cast shooting.A guy can shoot some light for caliber or heavy for caliber if he wants.Im sure Shemp will even agree with that.

Out of here,
Little Joe

[Ricochet]

The .44 Magnum is a mighty fine cast boolit launcher.

How about the original cast boolit flingers? Muzzle loaders, with no cases. :mrgreen:

[Bigjohn]

Molly,

First off; LOVE the avatar, that shows just what can be done to a Cadet action and don't they 'lend' themselves to such work beautifully? I have several myself but none with the artwork, YET!

Now, back to the subject at hand.
I have to agree with your decision of choosing the .30 cal. for this project as it offers multiple weights of projectiles. Especially if the aim is to target game from all levels of the spectrum; small to large.
With weights starting as low as 100 grs and extending to 200+ grs.; and just as many different profiles. I know of no other calibre with as many load options.

However, I believe the same principles you are applying to your project; others could apply to simular projects in other calibres, if they so choose.

I agree with your response regarding the Carl Johnson Special; many of us, including myself do not have his resources to be able to produce such an test rifle; including the skill of making the chamber reamers. However, it is a good example of what could be done.

Personally; I have long felt the need for a cartridge from which to launch my Cast Boolits with just enough capacity for the powder, so I could omit the need for a filler. Other than by the use of slower burning powders in the .303" case; I have not been able to achieve this (and I include my .45/70's in this statement).

I have even tried the partice of inserting a trimmed .223 case inside of a .308" Win. to reduce the capacity. One slight drawback we have here downunder is supply of components for the more "Oddball" (their words not mine) calibres which may be suitable for these loadings.

In regards to the LEE ENFIELD Rifles; please don't make the mistake of 'putting them down' (and I know you aren't really doing that); even in the sporting and hunting arenas they do perform and perform well. I have had some of the slickest operating actions ever produced, on LEE's. Most shooters can get a little parochial about some of their favourites.

The P14 (otherwise known as the M17) was once chambered in .303". I do know your plan is for a case which removes all possiblity of failures to feed due to rim hang ups and I mention the .303" as they seem to not have this problem, much.

Well, there is some more food for the thought, hope you can 'digest' it. :-D

:drinks:

John.

[Molly]

Hi John,

> First off; LOVE the avatar, that shows just what can be done to a Cadet action and don't they 'lend' themselves to such work beautifully? I have several myself but none with the artwork, YET!

Yeah, they're great. I love Rolling Blocks, etc, but I believe the Martini was the most elegant - and the strongest - SS rifle ever made, with the possible exception of the Ruger #1 &#3. Believe it or not, I have a friend who has been threatening to put them back into commercial production. And he has the metalworking machinery to do it! He has one of mine right now for measurement and conversion into AutoCad sosftware. But he's been making that threat for several years now, so who knows? We'll see.

> I have to agree with your decision of choosing the .30 cal. for this project ... I know of no other calibre with as many load options.

Well, 45 cal may come close, but it's too big for my purposes.

However, I believe the same principles you are applying to your project; others could apply to simular projects in other calibres, if they so choose.

Oh, of course! You could LN (Long neck) almost any round. The 358 Win comes immediately to mind, and it would be a sweet round, though not quite what I want. The problem arose when the military chaps realized that they could make more rounds per ton of brass if they cut the necks back to dead minimum. And yeah, they save a gram or two of brass with each shell. But they're designing for a completely different application and need than sporting environemts. Hunters and even target shooters don't comsume ammo by the trailer-truck load - or by the shipload - and they won't notice the extra cost for an eighth of an inch of neck. But the extra convenience and ease of use provided by a longer neck ARE important to sportsmen - or at least to me.

> Personally; I have long felt the need for a cartridge from which to launch my Cast Boolits with just enough capacity for the powder, so I could omit the need for a filler. Other than by the use of slower burning powders in the .303" case;

Umm. You migt want to think about that. Fillers are NOT a liability with cast bullets - or at least they don't need to be. CoW loads are an example: They will completely eliminate leading, and even the need to size, lubricate and gas check. Granted, bench match accuracy is rather a will-of-the-wisp right now, but very useful "Field Accuracy" is easily obtained with almost any rifle. And as the technology matures and develops, I am noticing reports of excellent accuracy more and more often.

> I have even tried the partice of inserting a trimmed .223 case inside of a .308" Win. to reduce the capacity.

I've read about that, but never tried it. If I wanted a reduced capacity case for light loads, I believe I'd just pour it full of a two-part epoxy resin. When hardened, run a small bit down to the flash-hole, and then a larger (neck slip-fit) bit down for whatever depth you wanted. It would be simple to give a 300 Mag the real case capacity of a 32 auto.

> In regards to the LEE ENFIELD Rifles; please don't make the mistake of 'putting them down' (and I know you aren't really doing that);

Oh, by no means: Not only do the Lee-Enfields have a military reliability record at least equal to the Mauser line, but the 303 is the functional equivalent of the 30-40 Krag, and I don't think I need to tell anyone of my admiration for that round. But the two-piece stock is a problem, and with aging eyes, the ability to put a scope on the rifle has become a serious consideration. The Lee-Enfields CAN be scoped, but they sure don't lend themselves to it.

> The P14 (otherwise known as the M17) was once chambered in .303".

Yep! And I've been silly enough to let mine go. Now the show dealers are asking prices reminiscent of a new Remington for old, weary, battered and rusty specimens. If I'm gonna pay new gun prices, I'm gonna have a new gun!

Cheers!

Molly

[Trailblazer]

Molly, are you familiar with Mike Bellm's work? He does what you are talking about on Contender barrels in order to cut more concentric chambers. IIRC he makes long necked chambers based on the 308 family and uses 444 Marlin brass which is close to the length of 6mm Rem, 7mm Mauser and similar brass. He has a website-I don't have the URL but you can find it with Google.

[Molly]

Molly, are you familiar with Mike Bellm's work?

No, I'm afraid not, but it sounds interesting. I'll try to check it out.

But I need to advise you fellows that I'm not going to be available for a day or three: I'm due at the Veteran's Hospital in Cincy early tomorrow morning for some exploratory work on a medical condition that's been annoying me. Return timing will be determined by results, but don't count on too much R&R as a result of my absence.

[Bigjohn]

Molly,

Doing away with the filler material would be a load condition I would like to achieve but don't think I will ever see. The only case I can do that in without using 'J' word bullets is the 45/70 and that is with Black.

Even in the cases I must use the 'J' word bullets (.222 Rimmed), there is an amount of air space. My thoughts tend to follow the line of what effect is that space having on my loads. To seek the answer, I will need to conduct a whole lot more testing. :-D

IMO, it would be nice not to have to use fillers and the one I have access to at present is Dacron. I can live with it.

Just a question; Is a neck length of .5" the "be all to end all", I mean how long is a .30/06 neck. I don't have my manual close handy bit IIRC it's longer than the .308" Win. and seems to have sufficient length for CB's?

Must go now and load some 314299's for the LEE.

John.

[Marlin Junky]

Just a question; Is a neck length of .5" the "be all to end all", I mean how long is a .30/06 neck. I don't have my manual close handy bit IIRC it's longer than the .308" Win. and seems to have sufficient length for CB's?

BigJohn,

I made reference to this on page 4 (the last page). The '06's neck is near 4 tenths long (.388") but I think the general consensus is the '06 has too much volume for a .30 caliber cast boolit gun.

There are many that disagree with me but I prefer a little more diameter than .30 to qualify as the quintessential CB shooter. If there were more .338 gascheck solutions out there, I'd probably be shooting a .338 Federal this week but instead, the 30-30 and the .35 Remington are my favorites with the .358 Winchester on my To-Buy list. One of these days I may even have Ballard Rifle Co. (assuming they'll still be around) build me an 1885 in .35 Whelen.

MJ

P.S. Unfortunately, I don't have a .32Spl to play with and that's not because I haven't tried to find a good example. I pretty much gave up on finding a .32 'cause of the 16" twist they're mated to and the fact I like heavy for caliber boolits.

[Bigjohn]

Marlin Junky,
I did the maths last night after I shut down for the day. This really is one facet of the art of casting which will bring out everyones preferences.

The .30/06 does seem like an empty swimming pool when you only have a bucket of water to put in it; in reference to the powder charges required to launch a cast boolit. When it comes to adjusting the length of a case neck for cast boolits; is a neck of .5" any better than a neck length of .338"?
Both would probably do the job.

I believe part of our problem is; 1) lack of funds to afford the rifle to conduct some serious testing with; 2) lack of equipment to make the bits and pieces required for the tests; 3) lack of skills to do the work required (for some of us) and 4) too short a time on this 'mortal toil' to carry out all the testing required.

Just to consider the variables involved;

1) Calibres, .22 upto .600+.

2) Boolit weights per calibre.

3) Boolit profile per calibre.

4) Metal alloys.

5) Suitable powders & Charges.

6) Neck lengths.

7) Rifling twists.

8) Case fillers.

9) Case capacity (by altering case profile).

10) Anything I've missed? [smilie=1:

So, I think that at this time; each of us will just have to continue experimenting with our own little piece of the ultimate puzzle. Just like Molly and his suggestion with the .308" case, maybe you would like to nominate for the .338" cal. section of the testing?? :-D

Personally, I have had some excellent results with a standard .308" Win. in a OMARK 44B Target Rifle, 13grs (?) Reddot and the RCBS .30-165-SIL boolit. Fully click adjustable CENTRAL Target Peep Sights and Tunnel foresight.
Best group was all holes touching on the target and I am certain that others have been able to achieve simular results with the same cartridge and others.

So, when you look at all of the information around about the accuracy achieved from various cartridge rifle combinations; what is the ULTIMATE cast boolit cartridge calibre.

:coffee:

John

[Ricochet]

A nice thing about muzzle loaders is that the "chamber" volume adjusts to the charge. Always 100% loading density.

[Marlin Junky]

Marlin Junky,

...maybe you would like to nominate for the .338" cal. section of the testing?? :-D

BigJohn,

I'd love to give the .338 Federal a work-out, after securing about 5000 quality gaschecks for .338 boolits. That probably is not going to happen so I think I'm going to get in line for a Ruger Hawkeye in .358 Winchester.

MJ

P.S. BTW, the Ruger Hawkeye in .338 Fed has a 10" twist so it may handle 250 grain boolits which is just about all the weight I need for now.

[Bigjohn]

A nice thing about muzzle loaders is that the "chamber" volume adjusts to the charge. Always 100% loading density.

Yes and no casing to worry about.

I shootem' too; .40" & .75"; both flinters.

Getting harder to get the powder for the .75; damn :twisted: guberment.

:drinks:

John

[Ricochet]

I've got a .50 caliber flinter. Haven't been able to get any powder for it for several years. The places that used to carry it say government regulations made it impossible for them. Nearest dealer I can find with it is some 300 miles away. BP can be ordered, but I don't want to keep big quantities of it around like I do with smokeless. In small quantities the hazmat makes it quite uneconomical. Damn guberment indeed.

[Bigjohn]

I've got a .50 caliber flinter. Haven't been able to get any powder for it for several years. The places that used to carry it say government regulations made it impossible for them. Nearest dealer I can find with it is some 300 miles away. BP can be ordered, but I don't want to keep big quantities of it around like I do with smokeless. In small quantities the hazmat makes it quite uneconomical. Damn guberment indeed.

We have the same sort of problem; local dealer says "No demand for it and if I order it the freight costs will outweigh the powder cost. 300 miles oneway to nearest dealer who does carry black and he has only WANO, the next nearest is GOEX fg and ffffg only at present.

Then when I get it home I am limited to 3 pounds total of black and smokeless combined without a powder magazine licence.

John.

[Molly]

Well, I'm back, though somewhat the worse for wear. the doctors removed a large lump beneath my right eye, but still have no idea what caused it, except that it was NOT cancerous. Testing of the specimen is underway.

On another tack, using the 8mm to make a long necked 308 Win got me to wondering just how many cases could be so formed with a long neck for cast bullets, but still be suitable for use with standard factory ammo. Not exactly ‘wildcats’, but … call them quasi-cats. Of course, 30-06 could be used to form quasicats for any of the shorter cases with the same base, but I’m talking about the simple, easy ones that don’t require a lot of trimming or neck turning. Ignoring cases already with long necks like the 30-30, I can only think of:
LN case Make From
.222 Rem .222 Mag, .223
243 Win 8x57
250 Savage .308
300 Savage .308
308 Win 8x57

Anything else I'm overlooking?

[Marlin Junky]

Given I can't devote as much time as I'd like to in the pursuit of precision loading/shooting, (which is one of the reasons I shoot primarily 336's for now) I don't get bogged down in the long-neck for cast boolits thing anymore because I've found the .35 Remington (at least with the dies I own) doesn't give me the run-out headaches the 30-30 does. I think it was mentioned much earlier that one can design molds easily enough to work well with one-caliber necks. I'm pretty sure the ubiquitous .308 Winchester with it's one-caliber neck has won a few CB bench rest matches and that's good enough for this accuracy buff. Perhaps I'll change my tune if I were to acquire more bolt guns, but I like casting and shooting too much to spend time worrying about the ultimate this or that. I suppose if I had the equipment for barrel and die making, I might feel differently.

MJ

[Molly]

...I don't get bogged down in the long-neck for cast boolits thing ... I think it was mentioned much earlier that one can design molds easily enough to work well with one-caliber necks. I'm pretty sure the ubiquitous .308 Winchester with it's one-caliber neck has won a few CB bench rest matches ... MJ

Hey Junkie,

I think we're on different train tracks. I don't think I ever said or implied that existing rounds can't be used with good results, or that new CB designs can't be cut.

What I said was that many modern rounds like the .308 are not perfect for cast bullets. Yeah, you can load good ammo for a one cal neck, but that short neck really limits your options. There are a few short bodied CB designs, but what if your rifle likes a longer body? Which is far more often the case that otherwise. Then you have to either seat it below the shoulder, increasing the tendency for leading, or seat it further out, exposing lube grooves. A longer neck gives you a LOT more flexibility. So (IMHO), the long neck is superior for cast bullets, and therfore closer to the 'perfect' case. The long neck version of existing cases is a simple, cheap way to avail myself of that improvement.

For me, that's still true. That's all I'm saying. If you disagree, fine. I'd like to know what you consider 'perfect'. Reading the opinions of others lets me check out my own ideas. Who knows? Maybe we can each learn something from one another.

[Marlin Junky]

Hey Junkie,

...I'd like to know what you consider 'perfect'. Reading the opinions of others lets me check out my own ideas. Who knows? Maybe we can each learn something from one another.

Molly,

I don't even chase the idea of perfection anymore. I just settle on satisfying. However, I must admit when a new cartridge hits the market it's pretty much a given that I'll be disappointed by its short neck. To me even the '06 has a short neck, but I usually find it easier to work around mass produced imperfections than starting from scratch. If I had the resources I'd probably be making barrels, dies and cartridges for cast bullet shooting but I'm afraid I'd have no time for anything else. Therefore, I just hope for the best with what I can afford. If I were a professional gunsmith things would probably be different. If you come up with a new line of cartridges, dies and reamers and boolit molds I'll definitely be interested if your stuff is high quality and affordable. What I'd really like is a inside neck turning die for the 30-30 to true up neck wall thickness and a collet neck-sizer that just slightly bumps the shoulder back a couple thou to enable smooth chambering in 336's after firing full-house loads... it should also flare the mouth in the same step. Does Midway sell these for less than 40 bucks?

Back to the ultimate cartridge thing though. Assuming the WSSM line of cartridges survive and therefore brass will be available for a long time, it might be interesting to neck that case up to .30, .32, .33 (which may be too much of a stretch... I don't know). I believe the .22 cal form has a neck greater than 1 caliber long and is a 50 grain plus case. The problem with the WSSM case is that it's trendy and too fat for more than two rounds in the magazine box. I don't see this round gaining a foot hold in the varmint fields based on magazine capacity alone.

Perfection is all in the mind, precision is at least something one can measure.

Regards,
MJ

[Molly]

...What I'd really like is a inside neck turning die for the 30-30 to true up neck wall thickness and a collet neck-sizer that just slightly bumps the shoulder back a couple thou to enable smooth chambering in 336's after firing full-house loads... it should also flare the mouth in the same step. Does Midway sell these for less than 40 bucks?...

Well, I dunno about Midway, but Lee used to sell a 'target model' reloader for about twice the price of a standard Lee Loader, and may still offer it. The target Model had a really slick feature that inside reamed necks with real precision. I've got one in 30-06, and I think they were (are?) made in most popular calibers. You might want to give Lee a call and ask. Mebby you could toss in a few bucks if they have moved it to special order status, but it lasts a lifetime. If it's discontinued, you can probably still find one in 30-30 on the internet.

As for setting the shoulder back on a case, all you have to do is shave a few thousandths off the top of your shell holder. You can even - if you're careful - do this by hand on a belt sander. The final result doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to be shorter.

[Marlin Junky]

As for setting the shoulder back on a case, all you have to do is shave a few thousandths off the top of your shell holder. You can even - if you're careful - do this by hand on a belt sander. The final result doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to be shorter.

Molly,

That'll set the shoulder back slightly while using a Lee Collet Die? The reason I ask is because I've written Lee asking if a 30-30 Collet Die can be made to set the shoulder back slightly and all they said was "The collet die is for neck sizing only". I didn't reply 'cause that remark didn't impress me as being well thought out.

Will the Collet "fingers" (for lack of a better word) pinch the shoulder?

MJ

[Molly]

...That'll set the shoulder back slightly while using a Lee Collet Die? ... MJ

Well, MJ, I can't say that. I just don't know, because I've never used the collet dies. all of mine were / the standard solid design. But it will sure work with standard dies. If it doesn't work with the Lee collets, you'll still have it to use with standard dies. If for some reason you're allergic to them, the shortened shell holder will still work as well as ever with whatever you're using: you just have to adjest the dies accordingly. And what the heck, worst case scenario, you'll still only be out a few bucks if you have to throw the shell holder away.

Anbother thought: If you're really into the collet dies, just do your sizing in two steps: Use a regular die with the shortened shell holder to set the shoulder back, and then switch to the collets for the rest of the job.

Good luck

[Scrounger]

Well, I dunno about Midway, but Lee used to sell a 'target model' reloader for about twice the price of a standard Lee Loader, and may still offer it. The target Model had a really slick feature that inside reamed necks with real precision. I've got one in 30-06, and I think they were (are?) made in most popular calibers. You might want to give Lee a call and ask. Mebby you could toss in a few bucks if they have moved it to special order status, but it lasts a lifetime. If it's discontinued, you can probably still find one in 30-30 on the internet.

As for setting the shoulder back on a case, all you have to do is shave a few thousandths off the top of your shell holder. You can even - if you're careful - do this by hand on a belt sander. The final result doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to be shorter.

Forster makes neck reamers in all calibers that work in their case trimmer.

[Marlin Junky]

If you're really into the collet dies, just do your sizing in two steps: Use a regular die with the shortened shell holder to set the shoulder back, and then switch to the collets for the rest of the job.
Good luck

Molly,

My RCBS 30-30 FL sizer set to just kiss the shoulder will reduce the case diameter at the shoulder/body junction which I'd rather not do. That's why I asked Lee about a collet die that sets the shoulder back a couple thou.

For my .35 Remington set up, I use an RCBS FL die set to barely reduce headspace and then use a Lyman M-die as usual taking no pains to limit run-out and aways end up with straighter ammo than with my 30-30 reloading dies. It's hard to say for sure exactly why I get less run-out with the .35 Rem than the 30-30 but I think it has a lot to due with neck wall uniformity and stiffness along with close chamber to die fit.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Forster makes neck reamers in all calibers that work in their case trimmer.

I've been turning case necks for decades with that lil' Forester tool and also the Marquart hand tool. There are distinct disadvantages to outside neck turning opposed to a good inside neck reaming system but the outside turning process requires less sophisticated tools (from a fabricating perspective). I'm pretty sure it was RCBS who was making the inside neck reaming dies that were popular with "benchies" some 30 odd years ago but I don't recall ever seeing them in 30-30. I don't know how the "benchies" are removing the restriction at the neck/shoulder junction these days but if everyone is using outside neck turning method, you can bet it's done in a separate step.

MJ

[Molly]

Forster makes neck reamers in all calibers that work in their case trimmer.

Yeah, I know. I have a Forster trimmer too. But that's not what we're talking about here. The Forster reamer (like all that work on the same principle) tends to follow the existing 'hole'. Yeah, it works fine to reduce brass thickness and make the round safe to chamber, but any irregularities in the thickness of the brass tend to remain. The Lee Target Model is quite different: it is a real neck sizing die that has a precision ground hole in the top for a close-fitting reamer. The outside of the case neck is held immobile by the sizing die while the reamer is used to remove excess brass from the inside.

Works great too: You only have to run some NM brass through it one time, and note how many of them WERE thicker on one side than the other. And standard commercial brass is even more irregular. Sometimes I wonder how I ever got a good group with that junk.

Me? I'm a believer!

[Marlin Junky]

The Lee Target Model is quite different: it is a real neck sizing die that has a precision ground hole in the top for a close-fitting reamer. The outside of the case neck is held immobile by the sizing die while the reamer is used to remove excess brass from the inside.

Molly,

I wasn't aware Lee had anything like that. Please provide a link to Lee's description of this die. Is it a special order item?

Thanks,
MJ

[DonH]

This may cause flames but a look at ballistics with bullet weights available or suitable for the .338 Federal makes me think we already had it in the 8x57. The short action "advantage" is, I believe, for most purposes overrated.

Given that the .30-30 case has often been called the "best" of the available .30s for cast bullet accuracy work, I have contemplated making the same case from .225 Win brass. Said case would work easily in a bolt gun with .308/.30-06 bolt face. Has anyone tried this or thought it out?

[Molly]

...I wasn't aware Lee had anything like that. Please provide a link to Lee's description of this die. Is it a special order item?
...

Well, I'm not sure MJ. After my last post, I went surfing for Lee Target Models, and found a few for sale like on EBay, but I didn't find it on the Lee website. There's a phone number on the website though, so give them a call. Otherwise it's just keep your eyes out at the gun shows, etc.

[Marlin Junky]

Molly,

I sent an email to Lee on Thursday regarding inside neck reaming dies and haven't heard back yet.

BTW, what IS the perfect cast boolit cartridge? :-D I can't make up my mind whether to buy a Ruger Hawkeye in .338 Federal or .358 Winchester. Probably by the time I make up my mind, neither will be available.

MJ

[Molly]

> I sent an email to Lee on Thursday regarding inside neck reaming dies and haven't heard back yet.

Might want to just call them ...

> BTW, what IS the perfect cast boolit cartridge?

It's the cartridge that does the job you need / want done with the least trouble and expense. So it will (and should) vary for nearly everyone. And it's a question that only you can answer for yourself.
Do you want a benchrest round? You won't care about exposed lube grooves.
Do you want a squirrel round? The 45-90 probably isn't ideal for you.
Do you want an elephant gun? You might do better to avoid the .22 Hornet.

I started the thread for two reasons: to promote discussion, and to get other peoples ideas. I think I succeeded.

[Molly]

...The short action "advantage" is, I believe, for most purposes overrated.

Given that the .30-30 case has often been called the "best" of the available .30s for cast bullet accuracy work, I have contemplated making the same case from .225 Win brass. Said case would work easily in a bolt gun with .308/.30-06 bolt face. Has anyone tried this or thought it out?

Don,

I thoroughly agree that the 'short action' advantage is a very minor consideration from my perspective too. As far as making up '06 rimmed versions of the 30-30, I think that it'd be a LOT less trouble to just chuck up a standard 30-30 case and trim the rim. It's all you'd need, it would give you exactly the same end product, and would only take a few seconds per case.

(It would also save you a lot on hospital bills from injuries inflicted by .225 owners for destroying some of their hard-to-find brass! (BG))

[Marlin Junky]

>

I started the thread for two reasons: to promote discussion, and to get other peoples ideas. I think I succeeded.

Molly,

Over 100 posts is indeed a success. I know from the context (and I was only able to read a few posts) that you were thinking rimless cartridge for a bolt action but some of us think a levergun or single shot using rimmed cartridges is accurate enough. Personally, I'd like to play with a .32Spl for awhile with a 12" twist but I'll be darned if I can find one. Maybe one of these days I'll have that outfit in Cody (Ballard Rifle Co.) build an 1885 for me in .32Spl. I suppose if I can afford that, I can also afford to have Lee make me a custom inside neck reamer too.

Regards,
MJ

P.S. I think I finally figured out why the 8mm Mauser is so popular.

[DonH]

Marlin Junky;

I have a 14" twist .32-40 barrel on an 1885. It is capable of MOA at 200 yds with a 220 gr Darr-designed spitzer breechseated. Different loading technique than yours but I think it demonstrates the capability of the twist. 12" would probably be better but 14" works. Actually, a friend shoots virtually the same bullet from aa 16" twist barrel ( Barry Darr recommendation) and I saw a group of his with 7 shots in a bit under an inch. Velocity appr. 1400 -1450 fps. The bullet weight/twist shouldn't work but Mr. Darr seems to know something.

[Marlin Junky]

Marlin Junky;

I have a 14" twist .32-40 barrel on an 1885. It is capable of MOA at 200 yds with a 220 gr Darr-designed spitzer breechseated. Different loading technique than yours but I think it demonstrates the capability of the twist. 12" would probably be better but 14" works. Actually, a friend shoots virtually the same bullet from aa 16" twist barrel ( Barry Darr recommendation) and I saw a group of his with 7 shots in a bit under an inch. Velocity appr. 1400 -1450 fps. The bullet weight/twist shouldn't work but Mr. Darr seems to know something.

Don,

I think spitzer is the key here. However, I want to shoot 60% meplats that weigh 220 grains and I doubt they'll shoot 1.5 MOA out to 300 yards from a 16" twist... even if started at 2300 fps from a strong SS. I suppose I probably should be considering a bigger cartridge case if I want that much power in the first place. Maybe the .30US opened up to .323 or .338 would be the ticket.

MJ

[45nut]

Bump for a fine thread that died a bit prematurely.

[cbrick]

Agreed, just read through a big part of this thread :coffee:, some very interesting ideas. Anyone ever get moving on any of these ideas, thoughts, concepts?

This thread should get going again :drinks:.

Rick

[JSH]

I also agree, very interesting thoughts and I only got to page 2. I had read this one off and on, had to refresh my memory.
The 30CB, 308 long necked sound very interesting. I would clean up a few throats on some other wise ungainly projects. I think an AI type case would be a dandy. I also think there is a place for the "new" 327 in here. Sorry if it was mentioned as i only got to page 2 for now.
The 32-20 or 30-20 was brought up. I have used data for the 30x221 aka 300 whisper in my 30-20 with no ill effects. Mine are both in single shot pistolas,btw. I think in a carbine or rifle length there may be a bit to be gained as a hunting round using the heavies, 180+. Keep in mind on the whisper or sub sonic stuff, I never had great success with subsonic, the bullet was supposed to tumble which will do wayyyyyyy more damage than conventional type projectiles.
I have seen sevral pics here and there of the Martini's chambered in this, along with the 357 max as a highly spoken of caliber in this rifle. Once again I think the 327 may have a good home in one of these and a fairly good gain over the 32HR or 32-20.
One thing that I have not seen mentioned on some of these smaller 30's is the the 30-357 or 30-357max. When I had my 30x221 TC barrel had a very good set of Redding dies for this one along with a file trim die. Case forming is so basic and straight forward that case loss is almost nill when sizing down rather than up. I wish I had those dies back now when subjects like this come up.

Still have not gotten my XP barrel swapped out to the 30BR. I need a good swift kick in the A$$ to get me moving I suppose. I had high hopes for this with the right Eagan mould. As he has passed it looks like I will have to make do with somthing else.

Jeff

[James C. Snodgrass]

Has anyone added any other case ideas, Or put together the long necked 308?[smilie=1:

[Molly]

Has anyone added any other case ideas, Or put together the long necked 308?[smilie=1:

Actually, I DO have the long necked 308 on the back burner. I'm accumulating parts, but the going is pretty slow. Right now, all I have is a really nice stock and am dickering on a new-made 98 action from a guy who is not only geting into barrel mfg work, but also has a few Douglas Premium .30 barrels and a 308 reamer laying around. It may take a few years, but I'll get there eventually, if'n the sun keeps coming up for me, and the creek don't. I've also got half a notion to chamber in steps, starting with a short chamber that would essentially be a 30 Remington, or a rimless 30-30. - all on the 308 case, with appropriate (long) necks of course. What'cha think?

Molly

[felix]

Sounds good, Molly. ... felix

[Doughty]

While I have not shot the .308 Longneck, a friend of mine, Dan Tyler experimented with it for a while. For those of you who may have known of him he used to shoot CBA Production Class matches with Savage .308s, and did pretty well. Of course he could not use the long neck in competition, but finally concluded that in a properly set up match rifle that there was no advantage in the Longneck over the standard .308. However, there may have been some advantage as a hunting round in colder climates. Often not a good idea to get too much of the bullet snug up into the bore, so the longneck kept more of the bullet in the neck and less in the bore. I have never seen any real evidence to say that it's wrong to seat a GCed bullet base below the neck, into the shoulder area, so for hunting it may be a moot point. However, I personally LIKE to keep the base of the bullet in the neck. Whatever makes one happy.

JSH, What type of Eagan mold are you looking for?

[James C. Snodgrass]

Molly, are you going to short chamber with a 308 reamer, ala 1 1/2" the 2" and so on. If so wouldn't it be close to 30 br at about 1.6 " or so I'm guessing. Some what similar to 30 I.H.M.S.A or so. I would like to have a contender chambered in a similar case with a rim to operate at about 30K psi or so. Good luck and good to know you ain't gave up on it . James

[dualsport]

I started reading all the threads started by Molly, one of my favorites to read, when I ran across this thread. I know, I'm really digging up the past, but it's good stuff. It occurred to me I may have a long neck chambered .308 already. Tomorrow I'll do a chamber cast on my Ishapore 2A1 in 7.62 Nato. It may have a long throat and be a good candidate for the reformed 8x57 brass. Whether or not that will give an accuracy advantage will have to be tested, but I like the idea of a .308 Win. with a longer neck. Can't afford a new .30BR right now. If this works out to be a shootin' combination I may have a new gun to play with in milsurp silhouettes.

[Larry Gibson]

Back in the late '70s I created a .308 CBC by setting back the shoulder on a .308 case to give it an '06 length neck. It also was set back far enough to give 100% loading density with 4895 under a 311284 to give 2100-2200 fps. I use a new '03A3 barrel as it was touted as the best for cast bullets. Unfortunely I did not quite understand the adverse effects of RPM (they are real) so accuracy remained best in the 1800 -1950 fps range, same as with a standard '06.

Were I to do this all over again knowing then what I know now I would use the standard '06 or a shortened '06 cast to 57 mm (basically a 30x57. This is easily accomplished using shortened standard '06 dies and 8x57 cases. I would use a tight necked match '06 reamer so case necks would only have .001 -002 expansion. I would also use a 4 land and groove barrel of equal widths with a 14" twist.

I think that case would give optimal 90 -100 % loading density with medium slow burning powders such as RL19, 4350 and H4831SC for use with medium to hevy weight cast bullets of 170 - 190 gr. They also woul be best with 150 -160 gr cast bullets such as the LBT or lyman 311466 if one wanted to push the envelope. I also believe that cartridge would be just the ticket for a 160- 170 gr PP'd bullet with 2500+ fps in mind.

Below is the .308 CBC next to a standard .308W.

Larry Gibson

[dualsport]

OK, I ran a couple 8mm Mauser cases into a RCBS .308 Win full length die. They went easy. The result was a .308 Win. with about a half inch neck! Looks very interesting to me. Tried chambering one in the only .308/7.62 gun I own, no way. Did a chamber cast on the Ishy 7.62 and there's really not much freebore at all, but I did get some useful measurements, like a .315 throat. That will be a very nice candidate for my new NOE 316299 mold from a GB here. I do have a 30-06/.308 chamber adapter that I've used in my CZ 30-06. I'll try that and see if the long necks will chamber in that gun. Probably not, but we'll see. If I decide to lengthen the throat in my Ishy to accept the long neck .308, is there a way to do it by hand?

[303Guy]

dualsport, with a throat like that you might just have an ideal PP chamber. The long mag and action will allow 'full length' boolits patched or plain cast to be seated way out there. If that's not your thing then it might still be worth considering keeping the Ishy as made, because of what it is.

[dualsport]

I'm gonna think about it a while, I don't cut up milsurps, even if they're thrashed. My Ishy looks a little homely,(black stove paint?) but has a good clean barrel and I like the sights. Went on a binge years ago and bought every SMLE I ran across, it seemed like. Got a few to play with. I did find a barreled action, No 1 Mk 3, that after days of cleaning revealed a nice sharp bore. I was going to rebarrel with a .444, but now I don't know. Hate to pull a good barrel. I have so many projects going at once it seems nothing gets done. Doc was also reccommending the PP in the Ishy, a while back. I just need to see it done once, that's how I learn. It sounds like just what I need, as I want velocity for flatter shooting at distance. Suppose there's a utube video on paper patching?

[runfiverun]

i'd forgotten about this thread.
even though iv'e had some of the concepts stored in the back of my head.
my line of thought has been along the 35 cal line though with a 15 twist and a 200 gr boolit.
i have had extremely good results with the 358 win.
but there is always the though of faster, more, easier, and results down range.
i would imagine that ones thoughts are gonna be geared to his/her intended use.
oh yeah, the case.
0-6 sized down in a 358 x 59 case size,with the longer neck, minimum case taper and 30* shoulder.
about 55 grs of a slower powder like rl-19 or 22 should generate a good bit of velocity.
yeah like a mini whelen.
a boolit with a slightly shortened ranch dog type nose.and the body of the boolit like the saeco 248, with a beveled front driving band.
it should be accurate and effective on game up through elk.
and should fit/feed in a standard mauser action.
just my thoughts on it.

[303Guy]

I have so many projects going at once it seems nothing gets done.Sounds like me!:mrgreen:

The great thing about paper patching is one doesn't need to modify the gun - just the boolit! (And one can roll the patches on while chatting on Cast Boolits! That's where dry patching has an advantage and that's what I would suggest as a starting point).

You would notice I did not nominate the 303 Brit as an ideal or perfect cast boolit case. That's because I don't think it is. The 30-30 beats it hands down and so does the 30-40 Krag, I should think. But the Lee Enfield is not a bad platform for the ideal CB cartridge. It's better than many folks would imagine. Remove the magazine guts and it drops the spent case straight down into it making it a single shot with spent case recepticle!

[Butcher45]

The perfect cartridge for cast boolits?

Well, I think that having no need for any sort of shell, primer, or powder is as good as it gets, so my vote goes to bigbore airguns as being perfect for cast boolits.

[dualsport]

Doesn't count, not a cartridge. Still, airguns are interesting. I'm doing an ongoing cleaning of my "room", it's been years. Ran across my old Sheridan .20 and a Crossman .17 that I aint shot in a coon's age. Went out to the garage and shot a hole in the wall!

[kens]

BUMP!!!
I just read this thread, very interesting.
Has anyone accomplished the long neck .308? or any other of these ideal cases mentioned?

[Pepe Ray]

Resurecting an OLD thread.
This was Molly's and I sure do miss his by line.
He stimulated more thought and good info than 50 noobies could.
RIP Molly

Pepe Ray

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I too saw this thread for the first time today.
What a great discussion, and my brain has been cooking something like
runfiverrun mention above, but with a rimmed cartridge for single shot use-
.307Win typed necked to 358 with a longer neck

[kens]

Well what are the common denominator for a really good cast boolit cartridge?
Small case capacity compared to its bore,
rimless for easy feeding,
long neck for good boolit seating,
Caliber size for commonly available molds.

back in this thread it was proposed a long neck .308 from 57mm mauser brass.
what about taking .308 brass and running it thru .300 Savage die.?
Wouldn't that give you a small capacity, long neck, rimless 30 cal?

[mainiac]

Well what are the common denominator for a really good cast boolit cartridge?
Small case capacity compared to its bore,
rimless for easy feeding,
long neck for good boolit seating,

Caliber size for commonly available molds.

back in this thread it was proposed a long neck .308 from 57mm mauser brass.
what about taking .308 brass and running it thru .300 Savage die.?
Wouldn't that give you a small capacity, long neck, rimless 30 cal?

Was a pile of these wildcats around back in the early 90,s. It was called 30HBR, and was used alot in hunter br matches....

[Hamish]

May I suggest going back to page one, post number one? The running conversation between Molly, Felix, and the other assorted characters is one to make you smile.

A couple of years ago I had a conversation with Jim whereby I laid out my thoughts on a long necked 8mm Mauser, to be made by running 30-06 brass in an 8x57 FL die and leaving the neck long enough to facilitate loading Boolits like the 8mm Maximum properly without having the gas check below the neck. It seemed like an excellent way to keep the boolit aligned with the bore too.

After that phone conversation I kept the thought pretty much to myself, and it saddens me that I did, as both Molly and Felix would have been around to laugh and send me toddling off to find this thread and the others like it.

Honestly, Im just glad to have been thinking along the same lines,,,,,,,,come to find out reading this thread that my idea for a long neck BR case is nothing new either!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13778-The-perfect-cartridge-case-for-cast-bullets-is

And after you reread to this point:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?16803-308-Long-Neck

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=10166&forum_id=63

VERY interesting stuff,,,

[Pepe Ray]

I wish that some GURU would investigate the possibility of collecting all of Molly's posts under one cover.
I'd lay out $20 for one, maybe more.
Pepe Ray

[rhead]

Molly,

I wasn't aware Lee had anything like that. Please provide a link to Lee's description of this die. Is it a special order item?

Thanks,
MJ



Just found this thread so a little late on the reply.

the reason that I (saw posted on some other forum several years ago) was that the patent for the Lee target model somehow stayed with Lee Engineering during the changeover. I can't see how that would happen unless the change over was a result of an internal family squabble. I have no idea what happened. the target models show up on E Bay once in a while but are pricy.