Reduced loads in .30-06!

[andym79]

Firstly hello, I hope this is the right place to ask the question!

Hi guys I am thinking of getting a .30-06 bolt action with 22" barrel and want to work up a load using cast bullets for plinking and punching paper at 100 yards.

The projectile I will be using is a 165grn round nose flat point. I plan on using H4895 (AR2206H), using the 60% rule on Hodgdons website the lowest load I can produce is using 28.5grn and should give me a velocity of ~1670 fps! (This is an approximation because the figure is not based on a cast bullet, the Hodgdon website does not have data for a cast 165grn!)

in fact I am lacking data for cast bullets in general!

Does anyone have experience of reduced H4895 loads using the 60%, specifically for cast bullets in .30-06 rifle?

[x101airborne]

Or... you could do like I do for my 300 win mag. Use Unique and you can work up easier than trying to work down without worrying about chamber ringing or SEE. And Unique is not case position sensitive. Your 165 grainer sounds like a good profile to use and should be a success.

I dont have much confidence in using jacketed load data for cast boolits. Too much difference between the two. And, I hate to say it, even with jacketed, I never had much luck with the 4895 reduced loads.

Welcome to the addiction. This is how it starts...... First it's oooohhh and aaaaaahhhh, then later there is running and screaming when the wife finds out what you spent on group buys and catalog orders.

[462]

Welcome, andym79.

Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook or Reloading Handbook are the go-to sources for cast boolit loads.

I cast another vote for Unique.

[glicerin]

X3 for unique, cast bullets often work better with faster burning powders(shotgun type). I have used 60% with H4895 with good results, however, had hangfires and misfires in 8X57, 220 gn jacket with one primer brand. be well

[Jim]

Another vote for Unique. I have worked up loads in the '06 with boolits as light as 100 gr. all the way up to 200. It truly is a 'unique' powder!

[Ickisrulz]

2400 seems to work real well for me.

[Shooter6br]

Unique is a great powder for cast. So is 2400. I use unique for pistols so i have alot of it

[Shooter6br]

I keep posting this link but it is a good one http://home.comcast.net/~gavinsw/guns/castbulletmilitaryrifle.pdf :Fire:

[Larry Gibson]

andym79

Firstly hello, I hope this is the right place to ask the question!

Welcome and this is the right place.

Hi guys I am thinking of getting a .30-06 bolt action with 22" barrel and want to work up a load using cast bullets for plinking and punching paper at 100 yards.

The projectile I will be using is a 165grn round nose flat point. I plan on using H4895 (AR2206H), using the 60% rule on Hodgdon’s website the lowest load I can produce is using 28.5grn and should give me a velocity of ~1670 fps! (This is an approximation because the figure is not based on a cast bullet, the Hodgdon website does not have data for a cast 165grn!)

Your cast bullet will need to be GC'd (gas checked....the little copper thingy on the bottom of the bullet) and lubed appropriately for use with 4895. You'll want to get an "M-die" or other means to flair/bell the case mouth for deating the cast bullets with out damaging them.

Your 165 gr cast bullet is on the minimum end of the weight range for best cast bullet use with H4895. You may be able to get it burning efficiently before exceeding a velocity level for accuracy. Each powder requires a certain psi level to burn efficiently) with that bullet but I'll bet a filler will be needed. I suggest you start at 28 gr of H4895 and use a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler. Some very good info on using the filler can be found in the "filler" sticky; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=109280. Work up to 32 gr in 1/2 gr increments using 7 - 10 shot groups at 100 yards looking for best accuracy until accuracy goes south as the velocity gets too high.

For "plinking and paper punching at 100 yards" a faster powder such as Unique will work very well and will not require a filler.

in fact I am lacking data for cast bullets in general!

I suggest you pick up copies of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbooks, Editions 3 and 4. You will find lots of data on the '06 and many other cartridges plus the casting and loading information sections are the best place to begin learning about cast bullets and loading cast bullets. They are well worth the $s and you will constantly refer to them.

Does anyone have experience of reduced H4895 loads using the 60%, specifically for cast bullets in .30-06 rifle?

I've been using H4895 and other flavors of 4895 since '68 in loading cast bullets im many different '06s for use from indoor gallery loads, plinking loads, hunting loads and for out to 600 yard formal target loads.

Larry Gibson

[wmitty]

Welcome to the club!

I see you are in Oz and wondered if the same powders are available to you that we have over here. Didn't look like you had too many responses with loads for your version of 4895; so I will throw in what little experience I have had with our 4895 and the '06. I have used 40 - 45 grain loads to function the action of Rem. M 74 autoloader and had fair accuracy with these loads using wheel weight alloy ( not heat treated). This has been several years ago and I now realize I needed a harder boolet for this velocity range. I never went lower than 40 grains because I had access to Reloader 7 powder, which is faster burning and would function the action with a lighter charge of powder. Several of those who responded mentioned hangfires using lighter loads of 4895 and I have also run into this but it wasn't with this cartridge. If you start with the 28 grain loading you will have a very mild load but you may experience hangfires, which to me at least, are very unnerving. You can always increase the powder charge up to the suggested starting load for the jacketed bullet in an attempt to get rid of the hangfire problem if you don't have another powder to work with.

[caseyboy]

Never loaded for the 30-06, but have loaded thousands of rounds for the 303Brit. The powder I prefer for the 303 is IMR4227.

[andym79]

Hi guys, thanks for all the replies, here are the main powders I have access to in Oz and their US equivalents:

Trail Boss Trail Boss
AS30N Clays
AS50N International
AP70N Universal
AR2205 H4227
AR2207 H4198
AR2219 H322
BM2 Benchmark
AR2206H H4895
AR2208 Varget
AR2209 H4350

I just got drawn to H4895, because of the advice on Hodgdon website,

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf

Makes it sound simple, but I like to use published loads!

[Larry Gibson]

Absolutely nothing wrong with H4895, if it works with that weight bullet in your rifle....well worth trying.

As caseboy mentions, 4227 would also be a good choice with that bullet in the '06 also. It will still benefit from a dacron filler. I most often use 2400, 4227, 4198, 5744 or 4759 with a dacron filler with 150 - 160 gr cast bullets in 30-30 thru '06 sized cases for accuracy in the 1600 - 1950 fps range.

Larry Gibson

[WilNsc]

Tagged for later. This was exactly what I was planning for next deer season, using a cast bullet with a reduced load in 30-06. I love the gun it's just a bit overpowered for the 50-100 yard shots I take, but a cast bullet should expand nicely at the shorter ranges.

Keep the good info coming.

[Bullet Caster]

I also am beginning to reload for the .30-06. I'm starting with 100 or so boolits, 200 grain, sized to .309 as provided to me by Recluse (thanks to him very much). I've got my boolits gas checked as provided me by 45Nut (thanks to him very much). I just finished ranch dipping the 100 boolits as pan lubing was a no go (too much mess and the cake wouldn't release from the pan). For lube I used Recluse's 40/40/10 modified to 40/40/capful of MS. I mixed 4oz. liquid Lee Alox with 4oz. of reduced JPW and a capful of Mineral spirits just to get things mixed. With that mix I added 8oz. of Bees wax (solid) which made about 10 fl. oz. of beeswax. I mixed all that together and used it as a ranch dip. In the next few days I will reload the 200 grain boolits with IMR 4895 and try this out in my M1 Garand. If needed I will add the 3/4 gn. Dacron filler since 4895 seems to be position sensitive. Hope this will work for my M1 Garand. I plan on starting with 32 grains of 4895 and go from there. I was wondering if one might slice off a cigarette filter really thin, discard the paper around the filter and stuff the filter in the case. It should be about the right size to keep the powder against the primer. Will be using CCI #200 large rifle primers. BC

[Larry Gibson]

Bullet Caster

With 4895 + the dacron filler start at 28 - 29 gr and work up[ from there for use in the M1. Best accuracy with functional reliability will be where it functions reliably, generally in the 1800 - 1950 fps range.

Never tried cigerette filters, could be hazardous to health in more than one way if used as a filler or wad(?). Much easier to get real dacron from an old stuffed toy or pillow. New dacron doesn't cost hardly anything either. Dacron is tried and true.........

Larry Gibson

[caseyboy]

Larry gives good advice. Spring for the new dacron. Five bucks at WalMart will get you enough for thousands of rounds. Dacron is a DuPont trade name, it is nothing more that polyester fiber fill.

[andym79]

Just found some interesting data on light loads for the .30-06 with 170grn RNFP cast bullet! The best groups were achieved using Blue dot and Red dot!

I know you don't want to load to light with a slow burning powder, but these are both fast burning pistol powders, correct?

Are Blue dot and Red dot position sensitive? Should they be used with a filler?

Anyway these are the suggested loads Blue dot 9grns 1142fps Red Dot 7grns 1113fps!

I am always uneasy as to loads not published in Manuals! Do these loads present any chance of SEE?

Still preferring 1500 -1 700 fps!

If I am going to load that light I am thinking trailboss would be a lot safer, just hope it has sub 1 inch groups at 100 yards!

[ku4hx]

Excellent advice here and in your earlier post. But you really need to read Lyman's cast bullet manual. Sub 1" groups at 100 yards .... hmmm.

[res45]

Are Blue dot and Red dot position sensitive? Should they be used with a filler?

I use 13.0 grs. Red Dot The Load (http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html) in the 7.62 x 54r and 8.0 grs. in the 30-30 with 170 gr. cast bullets with no fillers. I've put a lot of a lead downrange with those two loads with excellent accuracy and no issues.

The 13.0 gr. load requires me to use a gas check but the 8.0 gr. load in the 30-30 doesn't so I just leave it off,it doesn't seem to affect accuracy at all in the 30-30.

[caseyboy]

In my 7-08 with a 130g boolit, I use 7g of Promo (Reddot) without a gas check and am getting approx. 1300 fps. No leading, just a tiny fleck or two that are loose. I don't use a dacron filler with this fast burning powder. I use this load for offhand practice. I can hit the 1 foot round gong at 200yds every time if I do my part.

[leadman]

Blue Dot will work with the 30-06 although it has fallen out of favor lately. It is slower burning than Unique but faster than 2400.
I load 13grs in the 30-06 with boolits from 150grs to 200grs. All shoot well.

An even better powder is IMR SR4759. I get better accuracy and more consistent velocities. Try 18 or 19 grs with a boolit around 170grs to 200grs. and it should do well. Try to load the boolit so it is just off the rifling lands for hunting.

I will load the boolit single shot and have it engrave the lands if using a bolt action gun off the bench. If you try to remove these without firing tham sometimes the boolit will stay in the rifling, makes a mess. The accuracy is normally improved loading into the lands though.

Larry's loading for the 4895 is spot on for the 30-06.

[andym79]

I do not want to repeat myself, but do Red Dot or Blue Dot pose a risk of Secondary Explosive Effect in very light loads? Are they position sensitive? Do you think a squib is much more likely?

[Newtire]

I have used 12.5 gr. Unique with the RCBS 165 Silhouette boolit for a great, accurate, cheap plinker.

[L Ross]

Andym79,
Not sure if the SEE phenomenon even exists. I've been hearing about 2.7 gr of Bullseye blowing up revolvers for 35 years but have never seen it myself. That said, 13 gr of Red Dot or Promo gave me 1630 fps from a 24" barrel in 30-06 with a 150 gr cast flat point RCBS and have killed a deer with that. I've watched a friend shoot hundreds of 10 gr. of Unique without a hitch. My best accuracy has come with 16 gr of 4227 with a 311299 sized to .311".

Duke

[felix]

Hopefully, Duke, you never find out if it exists or not. You heard correctly about the 2.7 BE load. It happened during a Hartford Pistol League match around 1973 or so. My wife and I were members. The loads were prepared with Star equipment using the H&G 68 boolit. That load has since been upped to 2.9 in that League, but the rounds loaded with 2.7 were still used until they were used up. Most, if not all, of the guns were 1911s built by Dinan and/or Clark to the League's specs for that particular load of 2.7. The guns were maintained mostly by John Pico who lived (almost literally) at the Colt Range at that time.

A SEE can happen at any time and for ANY reason and with any amount of "power". We are fortunate that most occurrences are never noticed. Conversely, we are unfortunate in not being able to distinguish a natural overload/underload or constriction from a SEE condition. Consider any click-bang a SEE. Consider any sinister ES as a SEE waiting to happen. ... felix

Correction:::::::::::::::::::

That standard 2.7 load belongs to the 38 special using full 148 wadcutter seated flush in a Smith 52 auto. I was thinking of that 3.5 standard BE load with the standard H&G 68 in the 45 acp load as well. This latter load offered no problems in 1911 using 10-12 pound recoil spring. ... felix

[MT Gianni]

I have had good results @ 400 yards with a 165 gr bullet over WC860. This is a very slow surplus powder. I am not sure if there is an equivalent powder in Australia but think that there should be. The heavier bullets like 311284 shot well for me but were out of my receiver sights travel at long range. The 165 gr and even the 311466 will work but are more prone to wind deflection.

[obssd1958]

Hopefully, Duke, you never find out if it exists or not. You heard correctly about the 2.7 BE load. ... felix

Felix,
I don't want to sidetrack this discussion, but would really like to know what cartridge this was - as I load 2.7 BE underneath a 140gr HP from a Cramer mould, in my wifes .38 special...

TIA

Don

[felix]

Don, that's with the 38 special cartridge using the Smith auto, 148 wadcutter flush. That note above was confusing, and I am sorry for that. I was thinking of the standard 3.5 BE load with the 45 acp as well. As far as I know, I don't remember anything skeptical, if ever, with that ACP load. It would be wise to bring up the load for your wife's gun; for sure if not seated as far as the bottom of the wadcutter's location. She won't decipher the recoil difference, especially if shot on different days. She will think it is just her, not the gun. ... felix

[wellfedirishman]

To the OP, try the first powder on your list (Trailboss). I have had excellent results with it in a K31 (see post on this forum) and also in a 30-06 1903 Springfield and 30-30 Lever gun using cast boolits.

I have tried a bunch of powders (Green Dot, Blue Dot, Unique, Titegroup, etc.) and for cast bullet use my favorites are Trailboss (for its bulkiness and clean shooting) and Unique (more power, but a bit dirtier IMO).

[MtGun44]

Not trying to be smart alecky, but I am a bit skeptical of this SEE event's existence, have
not seen a compelling case made for it. I allow for the possibility of odd events, but it seems
that this is essentially impossible to make happen on command, and in my scientific mind,
if you cannot replicate it, it is not happening, or at minimum your theory has serious holes
so that you are not actually creating the correct conditions when you fail to replicate it in
testing, because you really do not understand what is happening.

How is it that the possibility (IME probability) of a double charge is not considered as
more likely than this magical/mystical/mythical (?) SEE event? Another possibility in a
few situations is two boolits, dbling the boolit wt and DRAMATICALLY reducing the size
of the combustion chamber.

The one thing that I have seen that seems possible, but I cannot verify how easy an error
it might be to make with a Star reloader because I have never used a Star is single
charge with double bullet. I have seen a printed report on two friends that reloaded
together and managed to load two boolits into a .44-40 with a single, light powder
charge and destroy (on separate days) two modern SAA replica guns with clearly
MASSIVE overpressure events that shattered the cylinders and blew away the top straps.
They found a double bullet loaded round when tearing down all their ammo later, with a normal
light Cowboy Action Shooting type load of powder. IIRC this was done on a Dillon, but I
don't remember which model.

I have verified that 2.7 gr of BE and two wadcutters can just barely fit into a .38 Spl case if the
seating length is a touch longer than flush. I have wondered if HB WCs would make it easier
by partially collapsing if two got somehow loaded. I intend to get a sample of this load pressure
tested by a powder company, and have gotten verbal approval, but just haven't gotten around
to it.

Bill

[Reverend Recoil]

I have had good results with Reloader No.7 for 30-06 and 30-30 cast bullet loads. Reloader No.7 fills half the case and meters like sugar. The Lyman handbook lists many good loads with this powder.

[cast367]

Andym79
I used the last 5 years AAC no.9 and AAC 5744 in my 30-06.
16-19 grain + dacron filler. 200 grain Lee CB.
It gives a small group at 100 meter.
Its very cheap .
Leo

[Throwback]

Good advice from many above. Best accuracy at the velocities you mention is with Unique in my experience. The red dot and 2400 loads mentioned work about as well. I have found Unique to offer more consistent accuracy than 2400, while the 2400 is capable of a bit more velocity. I like H4895 but for heavier loads and heavier bullets. I have never gone wrong by taking Larry's advice. He is a time saver.

Unique is the only powder I have used in the '06 that is capable of giving me consistent 1 inch performance in a spectrum of different sporting rifles from a 1917 dated '03 Springfield S.R.Griffin Sporter, to pre-64 Featherweight, to my current Remington 700's and Husqvarna HVA. This, with scopes (Remingtons) and aperture sights on all the others.

Other bullets will work but my best results have been with an old IDEAL 311413 of 180 grains sized .312 and seated to just kiss the rifling. Heavier 208 grain bullets (311299 or 314299) work about as well. 13 grains of Unique is the go-to load in the '06. I run 12 grains in the .303 and .30-40 Krag with 208 grain bullets with the same excellent results.