Getting The Lead Out Myth ?

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
A long time ago I read somewhere that if you shoot 2-3 jacked bullets after shooting 50-100 Pb bullets it cleaned out any leading. Then with a short cleaning your gun was clean. Is this just a gun rag myth or does it really work in you guys experance.
The article if I remember right reffered to rifles. If it works in rifles , does it work in pistols too?

[anachronism]

It may knock out some of the loose fouling, but it tends to "iron" the remaining fouling into the barrel, and makes it even tougher to get clean. The big problem is, it's difficult to see the ironed in leading, so it's easy to believe that it all gone.

Bob

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I always wondered about this as I believe I saw it in print more than 1 time. But as I did not have acess to a bore scope I had no real why to check it out for sure.

[shooter2]

I think it's one of those things written by someone who "just thought" it would work, but never tested it. There is only one way to clean a gun and that's the hard way with solvents, brushes and patches. I've also never accepted the idea that a gas check acts as a scraper removing lead from the bullet on it's way out. Another of the myths that spring up from time to time. JMHO

[StarMetal]

Oh for God's sake, quit beating this one around. It does work to a degree. The idea behind it is the tighter fitting harder jacketed bullet will push the lead out. I've heard to use a light jacketed load not a hot one. Of course with all the vaiables involved this doesn't always work and IMHO the best way to clean the lead out of your barrel is good old elbow grease.

Joe

[David R]

Shooting pistols with high velocity lead loads, I can see the stuff in the barrel. I then would send a cylinder full of jacketed stuff down the barrel. MOST of the lead would be gone. I believe it works, but does not replace cleaning your barrel. Now you have lead and copper fouling, but much less lead.

I did a test last week and posted it here. Shot some plain base boolits at about 1700. Saw the lead in the rifle barrel. Shot 5 gas checked boolits same velocity. Lead was gone as far as I could see with the bolt out at the range. I still needed to clean the gun. When I can see no lead in my rifle barrel, I clean it and inspect the patch for little spots of glitter. Its lead.

I have read that it works, I have read that you can blow up your gun. I think all these were shooters from behind a keyboard. My personal exp shows it works, but not completly.

[anachronism]

I use an Outers Foul-Out to totally clean my barrels. Just for the hell of it, I did try shooting some commercially cast lead bullets, which I knew would lead my Redhawks barrel. I shot 2 cylinders of 240 gr jacketed bullets after that, then too it home for cleaning. I did still get quite a bit of leading out with the Foul-Out, so my official position is that trying to blow the lead out of a barrel with jacketed bullets is a wasted effort. 'Tis far simpler to prevent the leading than to remove it.

Bob

[carpetman]

BOOM BOOM---You can get a fiber optic attachment for a minimag flashlight. Wal Mart carries them and are just a few bucks. In fact you can get the flashlight and attachment for under $20. The attachment is flexible and it lights up a bore real good.

[Bullshop]

As usual I have kind of a different twist on this one. I use rather soft plaine base cast boolits to clean fouling from jacketed bullets. Just wet patch with copper solvent, let sit ten minutes then a couple shots at very moderate pressure. This is the easyest way I have found to remove jacket fouling. Could be a jacketed bullet would do the same for lead if you first used a lead solvent.
BIC/BS

[Pb head]

An old pistol shooter showed me a slick way to get lead build up out of a Ruger 44 mag revolver I had that leaded up bad when I used Unique powder. He took a soft keith boolit, oiled it and started it down the muzzle with a brass hammer, then he tapped it out the other end with a brass rod. Lo and behold it pushed all the lead out. That man knew a lot of " old Indian tricks ". I very seldom have a leading problem now, I found a few " old Indian tricks " on this site and others that taught me a lot.

Pb head

[Willbird]

Actually carpetman, you can also buy the fiber optic adaptor from mscdirect.com cheaper, get 2 their small, and I will say they work very nicely,

http://www.niteize.com/productdetail.php?category_id=29&product_id=93

they are made by those guys. I buy them for use in the shop where I work, they are just as good as a steelman bendo-light maybe better, and a HECK of a lot cheaper and far more durible.

Bill

[BruceB]

There is a wide variety of opinion on the following technique, at least judging from comments seen on the Internet sites. I make NO RECOMMENDATION beyond saying that it worked for me on the ONE occasion that i tried it.

My 1903 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer was totally leaded, end to end, with heavy metallic deposits everywhere. Brushing it did nothing, so I decided to carefully attempt the use of this formula:

50% hydrogen peroxide-50% strong household ammonia

Use the highest-strength drugstore peroxide you can find. Plug the bore at one end (I taped-over the muzzle) and fill the bore with the solution. I was astonished to watch the gray foam come boiling out of the chamber....next time, I'll plug the chamber end, because cleanup is much easier.

I left the stuff in the barrel for ONLY FIVE MINUTES, because I'd heard stories of bores being pitted by the stuff if left overnight. Even so, the barrel was clean, and a good drying and oiling left it pristine.

Again, use this with caution and for a limited time. It did no detectable damage to my rifle.

A Foul-Out electronic cleaner sounds like a really good idea, and it can be had with solutions to remove either lead or copper. IF USED WRONGLY, the electrolytic action can also pit barrels, in my understanding.

[buck1]

I know gaschecked bullets work for me. But copper scrub pads work well to better. Buck

[LAH]

I find this whole subject interesting.

[w30wcf]

Interesting topic.

My one experience would lead me to believe that if one has a cast bullet load that produces no leading in a firearm which has picked up leading from another load, the bore can possibly be shot clean by shooting the non leading load.

Sort of like gum removing gum from a surface.

Several years ago, I was shooting in SASS side event. The targets were 10 reduced sized steel buffaloes spaced anywhere from 120 to 35 yards. My rifle was a .45 Colt Marlin 1894 Cowboy rifle. The load was 8.5 grs. of Universal under a 250 gr. bullet (Magma design). THe alloy was w.w. + 2% tin. This is an excellent load in this rifle giving 1,200 f.p.s. and a very clean bore.

Anyway, I loaded 10 rounds in the magazine and at the command to fire, I chambered a round, aligned the sights on the furthest buffalo and pressed the trigger. Immediately, I knew something was wrong. The report was noticeably louder than normal as was the recoil. The fact that casing would not extract confirmed it. I removed myself and my rifle from the firing line.

What happened? In all my years of reloading (37), this was a first for me.
Obviously, it was an overload. But how? I load my cases in a loading block, 50 at a time and inspect the charge level in each one. Once in awhile I throw a double charge in the last case just to see what it looks like when comparing the other charge levels, then dump it back in the powder measure and recharge. Somehow, I missed doing that on this box. I am extra cautious now and was very blessed that no harm was done to myself or my rifle. LESSON LEARNED!!

To continue ..... I removed the case with a cleaning rod and noticed the bore was almost white with leading right up to the muzzle. I then removed the remaining 9 cartridges from the magazine. Not having my cleaning equipment with me, and after thinking a bit, I decided to have a try the steel buffaloes again.

This time everything went fine and after the 10 cartridges were fired, I found that the bore had no traces of leading at all!

Lessons learned the hard way!

w30wcf

[felix]

John, that is my approach to unleading a gun also, but usually I don't have or keep enough chasers to do a complete job. You need a fairly soft lead as a chaser to do this trick, and then shoot it at a very low velocity. After that I cheat and use a stainless spiral brush and/or a choir boy/girl wrap, depending on mood. I don't like to extract the lead out chemically/electrically because of the resulting mess. ... felix

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have many times after shooting 1-200 cast gc. bullets shot 3 norma j-bullets out of my 7MM/06 . Safe as the norma bullets ars .283 while the bore is .284. But I did it just hoping for a cleaner bore. The norma bullets are nickle jacked by the way, Ni is harder than Cu i believe.

[44man]

All of this has been very interesting. I only get leading in my big bore revolvers, .475, etc. I find a jag and a tight patch soaked in solvent will remove all of the lead. It might take two or three patches but it all comes out. If you are using a slotted jag, you are beating a dead horse.
The next thing is, if you shoot ANY jacketed bullets, before or after cast, the copper must be entirely removed or your gun will lead badly and if over copper it will be very hard to remove.
I shoot plain base boolits and gas checked boolits and find no difference in the amount of lead left in the bore, both will leave leading. I also never shoot jacketed first if I am shooting both. I never shoot lead over copper. I also make sure all copper is out before shooting cast again. Shooting both in one session requires double cleaning to remove any copper, then lead and copper and lead again. Just not worth the trouble.
I have never found out why the larger bores lead more then the smaller bores. I get almost zero lead in the .44 and .45 Colt. I find more lead in all guns with WW metal and if I make the boolits harder, I reduce the leading a lot, sometimes none at all in the .44 with hot loads.
I shoot BPCR and with a 1 to 20 tin, lead mix, I get zero leading. If I shoot WW metal, the bore will be full of lead. If I shoot soft lead up to WW, in my revolvers, I get a lot of lead. If I add tin and antimony to WW metal for my revolvers, the leading is reduced a great deal.
Maybe soft lead with light loads in the revolvers would reduce the leading, I don't know because all of my loads are for hunting. I use some plinking loads with WW's and leading is not too bad. But I shoot very little of the plinking, light loads.
This is just a strange situation.

[David R]

I said earlier that I had shot some plain base boolits @ approx 1600 and leaded the heck out of my Enfield. Cal 30 '06. I shot some gas check afterwords. The lead that I SAW in the barrel was gone. I later that week cleaned and cleaned the barrel. I had some "glitter" on the cleaning patch. I kept it up till the patch showed no more lead. The gas check boolits didn't remove all the lead, but they sure did remove a bunch.

Gotta love that J-B bore cleaner.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have also heard that you can not shoot cast, & get accurate results, after shooting jacked bullets.
Is this true?
I have shot J-bullets after shooting cast & got good groups.

[Bass Ackward]

HI,
I have also heard that you can not shoot cast, & get accurate results, after shooting jacked bullets.
Is this true?
I have shot J-bullets after shooting cast & got good groups.


Boomer,

I have tried shooting cast over jacket fouling and the answer to your question is yes .... and no. Again it matters just how much fouling and then how the pressure is generated.

In a wheeler, accuracy was disasterous with PB no matter how hard the bullets were. I suppose I could have tried to cut pressure more, but it is easier to clean. But with a GC, accuracy over a light copper wash was no worse than shooting in a lightly leaded barrel until about 24,000 psi using hard bullets.

In an 06 Rem with normal cast velocities I didn't even know the copper was still in there until I cleaned after shooting cast. No lead either by the way, just powder fouling and then blue. Results were fully normal for that gun. But if you try anything over 24 - 25,000 psi, the lead really grabs the copper and jumps pressure way up beyond what you intended. And we all know what happens with too much pressure behind lead, accuracy goes the other way.

Cleaning must be an art that a lot of shooters don't understand, because 8 out of every 10 barrels we get in for rebarreling, because they are "shot out", simply need cleaned. Can you imagine the opinion those 8 guys would have about shooting cast?

[44man]

Boom boom, if you shoot jacketed bullets first, the copper fouling in the bore will grab lead from the cast boolits and it is very hard to remove. If you shoot jacketed after cast, the jacketed bullets will remove almost all the lead. However, make sure you remove any copper fouling before shooting more cast boolits.

[w30wcf]

Actually, my results of shooting cast after jacketed have been very good..... the cast bullets cleaning the copper out of the bore. This is in my 1894-1994 Centennial .30-30 rifle.

Once in awhile I shoot some 110 gr Sierra Hollow points over H335 for a velocity of 2,830 f.p.s. in the 26" barrel. It takes 10-15 rounds of cast to do the job. I've used 10/1 lead tin bullets at 1,500 f.p.s., w.w.+2% tin bullets at 1,700 f.p.s. and heat treated w.w.+ 2% tin at 2,200 f.p.s. and the results were the same....... 10-15 rounds and the copper fouling was gone.

Accuracy was on par with cast shot from a clean barrel.

w30wcf

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have had very good luck w/ the LEM lead remover tool in my wifes 357 & my 44. it really works well & fast. I don't know if the co. is still in existance but the tool is worth the price easily.
I wish I had one in 22 for pistols. I don't know, but if they were made in a rifle version I'd buy one as well.

[w30wcf]

It worked again! Last weekend I shot some fast stepping copper jacketed bullets from my 1894-1994 Centennial rifle. Fired 15 cast bullet loads and the copper went adios.

Happy July 5th

w30wcf

[StarMetal]

I'm just wondering if maybe you covered up the copper with lead. Alot of times a leaded bore shines like a clean bore especially after attempts to clean the bore giving a false impression that it's clean. I'd scrub it real good then I'd soak the bore with a good copper remover then send a patch down through it and see if don't come out bluish green.

Joe

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I just found out the lewis lead remover is still made. but LEM was bought out by Brownels who now sells it. IF ANYONE MAKES A SIMULAR TOOL FOR RIFLES I WANT TO KNOW & I'D BUY ONE IN 7MM! ALSO A SIMULAR DEVICE TO GET THE FOULING OF ANY KIND OUT OF THE CHAMBER NECKS & LEADS OF RIFLES WOULD BE A BLESSING FROM HEAVEN!

[Johnch]

I use a Lewis style setup that I make .
I use brass screen from water filters I get from work .
It saves SOME work .
But I still have to use a brush after it gets most of the lead out.

I was told that Krol (spelling) oil will get under the lead and make removal easer.

Johnch

[David R]

I just find loads that don't lead the barrel. If it leads, then I am doing something wrong. I sure have removed my share though.

I remember when I first started loading for my 357. I was shooting hornady swaged boolits with full house loads. Came out in twisted strips. Not too accurate either. Then I went to carrol cast boolits. Only a little better. Then I started makin my own. I learned to slow em down or use gas checks. Life is easier now.

I quit hunting because not enough shooting goes on.

David

[w30wcf]

Starmetal,

That's what I was thinking as well when I first tried it about 3 years ago. I cleaned the rifle thoroughly back then, using a method similar to what you described, and the copper was indeed, gone.

w30wcf

[StarMetal]

w30...that's cool then. Glad that works out for you.

Joe

[buck1]

Cleaning must be an art that a lot of shooters don't understand, because 8 out of every 10 barrels we get in for rebarreling, because they are "shot out", simply need cleaned. Can you imagine the opinion those 8 guys would have about shooting cast?


A Old gunsmith friend of mine used to get in guns for rebarreling. The first thing he would do is clean the bbl very well. he claimed tooth paste and hot water are great for neglected bores.
He would then shoot it. 9 out of 10 times it would shoot great.
However the customers did not seem to like the idea , and still would want a new bbl.
No problim !!!a new BBL was put on and ,a used bbl sold to someone who really did need one. Not once did he get any complaints on the used bbls, many of the customers were target and CB shooters who liked the broke in finish. ...Buck

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
An old gunsmith trick to remove lead was to pore some mercury in the barrel & let it sit a day. Now a days OSHIA would have a fit if it heard of anyone doing such a thing.

[buck1]

Well this weekend I shot some "what was I thinking CB loads".
Well the gun was so baddly leaded I couldnt even load it!!
When I got home I soaked it in Eds Red, for 35 min, Pushed a bronze brush through it wraped with copper chor girl scrubbing pad shavings.
15 strokes that gun was clean!
I almost passed out!! I was ready for a week long cleaning, but poof!, bang boom,,,DONE!!!!....buck

[David R]

Buck1 WheredoyagetdaEDSRED?

[waksupi]

December 15, 1995


Mix Your Own "Ed's Red" Bore Cleaner... It Really Works!

By Ed Harris Rev. 12-27-94

The "recipe" is based on proven principles and incorporates two polar
and two nonpolar ingredients. It is adapted from a formula in Hatcher's
Notebook, Frankford Arsenal Cleaner No.18, but substituting equivalent
modern materials. I had the help of an organic chemist in doing this and
we knew there would be no "surprises" The original Hatcher recipe called
for equal parts of acetone, turpentine, Pratts Astral Oil and sperm oil,
and optionally 200 grams of lanolin added per liter.

Pratts Astral oil was nothing more than acid free, deodorized kerosene.
We use K-1 kerosene of the type normally sold for indoor space heaters.
An inexpensive, effective substitute for sperm oil is Dexron (II, IIe or
III) automatic transmission fluid. Prior to about 1950 that most ATF's
were sperm oil based, but during WWII a synthetic was developed for use
in precision instruments. With the great demand for automatic
transmission autos after WWII, sperm oil was no longer practical to
produce ATF in the quantity demanded, so the synthetic material became
the basis for the Dexron fluids we know today. The additives in ATFs
which include organometallic antioxidants and surfactants, make it
highly suitable for our intended purpose.


There isn't anything in Ed's Red which will chemically remove copper
fouling, but it does a better job on carbon residue than anything out
there. Several users have told me, that with exclusive use of "ER" does
reduce the buildup of copper fouling, because it removes old impacted
fouling which is left by other cleaners, reducing the adhesion of
abraded metal to the surface, and leaving a cleaner surface which
reduces subsequent fouling. It appears that "ER" will actually remove
metal fouling it if you let it "soak" so the surfactants will do the
job, though you may have to be patient.

The lanolin is optional. The cleaner works quite well without it.
Incorporating the lanolin makes the cleaner easier on the hands, and
provides better residual lubrication and corrosion protection if you use
the cleaner as a protectant for long term storage. If you want to
minimize cost, you can leave the lanolin out and save about $8 per
gallon. Mix some yourself. I know it will work as well for you as it
does for me.

CONTENTS: Ed's Red Bore Cleaner

1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later. 1 part
Kerosene - deodorized, K1 1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec.
TT-T-2981F, CAS #64741-49-9, or substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS
#8052-41-3, or equivalent, (aka "Varsol") 1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.

(Optional up to 1 lb. of Lanolin, Anhydrous, USP per gallon, OK to
substitute Lanolin, Modified, Topical Lubricant, from the drug store)

MIXING INSTRUCTIONS:

Mix outdoors, in good ventilation. Use a clean 1 gallon metal,
chemical-resistant, heavy gage PET or PVC plastic container. NFPA
approved plastic gasoline storage containers are also OK. Do NOT use
HDPE, which is breathable because the acetone will evaporate. The
acetone in ER will attack HDPE in about 6 months, making a heck of a
mess!

Add the ATF first. Use the empty container to measure the other
components, so that it is thoroughly rinsed. If you incorporate the
lanolin into the mixture, melt this carefully in a double boiler, taking
precautions against fire. Pour the melted lanolin it into a larger
container, rinsing the lanolin container with the bore cleaner mix, and
stirring until it is all dissolved.

I recommend diverting a small quantity, up to 4 ozs. per quart of the
50-50 ATF/kerosene mix for use as an "ER-compatible" gun oil. This can
be done without impairing the effectiveness of the mix.

INSTRUCTIONS FOR USING Ed's Red Bore Cleaner:

1. Open the firearm action and ensure the bore is clear. Cleaning is
most effective when done while the barrel is still warm to the touch
from firing. Saturate a cotton patch with bore cleaner, wrap or impale
on jag and push it through the bore from breech to muzzle. The patch
should be a snug fit. Let the first patch fall off and do not pull it
back into the bore.

2. Wet a second patch, and similarly start it into the bore from the
breech, this time scrubbing from the throat area forward in 4-5" strokes
and gradually advancing until the patch emerges out the muzzle. Waiting
approximately 1 minute to let the bore cleaner soak will improve its
action.

3. For pitted, heavily carbon-fouled "rattle battle" guns, leaded
revolvers or neglected bores a bronze brush wet with bore cleaner may be
used to remove stubborn deposits. This is unnecessary for smooth,
target-grade barrels in routine use.

4. Use a final wet patch pushed straight through the bore to flush out
loosened residue dissolved by Ed's Red. Let the patch fall off the jag
without pulling it back into the bore. If you are finished firing,
leaving the bore wet will protect it from rust for up to 30 days. If the
lanolin is incorporated into the mixture, it will protect the firearm
from rust for up to two years. For longer term storage I recommend use
of Lee Liquid Alox as a Cosmolene substitute. "ER" will readily remove
hardened Alox or Cosmolene.

5. Wipe spilled Ed's Red from exterior surfaces before storing the gun.
While Ed's Red is harmless to blue and nickel finishes, the acetone it
contains is harmful to most wood finishes).

6. Before firing again, push two dry patches through the bore and dry
the chamber, using a patch wrapped around a suitably sized brush or jag.
First shot point of impact usually will not be disturbed by Ed's Red if
the bore is cleaned as described.

7. I have determined to my satisfaction that when Ed's Red is used
exclusively and thoroughly, that hot water cleaning is unnecessary after
use of Pyrodex or military chlorate primers. However, if bores are not
wiped between shots and shots and are heavily caked from black powder
fouling, hot water cleaning is recommended first to break up heavy
fouling deposits. Water cleaning should be followed by a thorough flush
with Ed's Red to prevent after-rusting which could result from residual
moisture. It is ALWAYS good practice to clean TWICE, TWO DAYS APART
whenever using chlorate primed ammunition, just to make sure you get all
the residue out.

[KCSO]

Does anybody use Kroil for cleaning? I had a quart of this stuff given to me and the fellow claimed it was a good bore cleaner. I tried it and it removes lead about as good as Hoppes #9. I clean when the gun is still warm.

[old gunner]

In the old days, We sometimes used mercury, this was before We found out
just how toxic that stuff is. But it worked.
Lately I have had pretty good luck using a product called Kroil, and 4000 steel wool. Scrubs the lead out. Kroil is a very good product, an excellent penetrating oil, I have soaked a barrel that was leaded for a couple of days and pushed out most of the lead with a tight patch.

Bill

[felix]

The best time to clean a gun is immediately after shooting while the lube is still soft or "wet". The more creapy-crawly the solvent is, the better. This is in contrast to the solvent's capability to chemically react which would be more useful in long-termed dirty barrels. Jojoba oil is also a nice creapy-crawly, more properly termed a penetrating oil. ... felix

[Bret4207]

IIRC the old idea was to load a few rounds of a jacketed bullet with a sharp base backwards and fire them. This was supposed to work sort of like the leading edge of a gas check. Never tried it, but then I've never had much leading at all to deal with even after shooting jacketed and not cleaning the copper out. But, and this is a big but, I rarely exceed 16-1700 fps in anything. So I'm not in the "sure to lead load" catagory. For what leading I do get I use 4/0 steel wool and JB.

[David R]

Tahnk You for all that info Waksupi :)

[waksupi]

David, do a search on Ed's Red, and you will get a little more info on it. Although in the public domain, it is always requested that the full text be presented when transferred to another place, such as here. However, the posting limit wouldn't allow the full text to be plugged in. I should have split it, I guess.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Thanks for all the idaes guys, & especialy WAKSUPI for the info on ED'S RED. The info will help alot in the future.

[rocklock]

Does anybody use Kroil for cleaning?

Not general day to day cleaning, although I'm sure it would work well. I've found it an excellent surface rust remover...let it soak for a few hours and hit the rust with some brass or copper wool.